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Non-enduro full complement bearings?

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Yes that's right, I want to make my bike less enduro.

Do any good brands (skf, nsk, etc) make full complement bearings in the smaller sizes that MTB frames use (eg. 6902 and smaller)? Please only reply if you've actually checked the catalog and/or purchased some, enduro jokes are also acceptable. I've already checked the SKF list and their full complement options seem to start at much larger sizes than used in MTB, but I thought I'd ask before checking every other good brand.

I've decided I no longer want to spend exorbitant prices / postage costs for average bearings with rubbish seals (enduro brand bearings). However standard caged bearings really won't cut the load requirements on most frame bearings - especially not the one I'm currently servicing, so I do want a full complement option.
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,596
5,894
in a single wide, cooking meth...
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iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
Why not just use the SKF 2RSH bearings? Did this when I was fed up with Enduro (years ago, even before Enduro became trendy) and they seem to last longer in my Intense frames (I know, unrideable VPP sh!t) in comparison to the Enduros. Most of the times the Enduro bearings died because of dirt not actual load.
FWIW: A friend tried the SKF stainless bearings and the steel was too soft and wouldn't last.
 

troy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 3, 2008
1,006
739
It will be hard to get those (try looking for some aircraft bearings from Timken or FAG they are doing some really small bearings for this industry), even if, they will be just very expensive. Maybe try using some radial spherical plain bearings instead?
 

blindboxx2334

Turbo Monkey
Mar 19, 2013
1,340
101
Wets Coast
It will be hard to get those (try looking for some aircraft bearings from Timken or FAG they are doing some really small bearings for this industry), even if, they will be just very expensive. Maybe try using some radial spherical plain bearings instead?
fag bearings? you have my attention.
 

tacubaya

Monkey
Dec 19, 2009
720
89
Mexico City
Ok, back to being serious.

You won't easily find full complement bearings from big manufacturers, and Enduro MAX 6902 bearings are like 6 bucks retail.. so if you like them just get a bunch of them and be done with it. If your bearings are dying because of improper lubrication/contamination (most likely), I agree with iRider, just get some 2RS bearings from any reputable manufacturer like this:

http://medias.schaeffler.de/medias/hp.ec.br.pr/619..-2RSR*61902-2RSR;amYVSzWE2Vw7?clrsb=1

I personally think SKF/INA are overkill for bikes, but whatever floats your boat.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
To be a bit more specific - chasing the 6900 (10x22x6mm).

Thanks for the tips, but as I hinted, in his particular application the bearings are on the small size for their loading and there were no contaminants visible + factory grease still clean and a few bearings particularly notchy (it was in the upper rocker area, so little exposure to contaminants anyway). Thus I'm confident that they do need to be full complement, otherwise I would consider just running a regular SKF 2RS.

However out of interest, has anyone compared the static load ratings of an Enduro MAX in a given size vs. a regular caged SKF/FAG? I'm having trouble finding load ratings for the Enduro bearings, perhaps unsurprisingly. 1270N static / 2750N dynamic for INA/FAG in this size.

INA/FAG
Online catalog is linked
Which particular lineup is the no-fill or full complement option? I just tried finding the actual bearing I'm chasing in that config and couldn't find it (6900 or 61900 in INA/FAG).

so if you like them just get a bunch of them and be done with it.
If I could just walk into a shop and buy them it wouldn't be too bad, but I have to pay a premium since they come from the US and also wait for postage - so it's partially just the extra cost and annoyance (I have done what you said in the past). I'd rather spend that premium on a better bearing and being able to get it locally / instantly - but unfortunately looks like that may not be possible if I want full comp.
 
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Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
@tacubaya @iRider

http://www.skf.com/au/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/deep-groove-ball-bearings/single-row-deep-groove-ball-bearings/single-row/index.html?prodid=1010281900&imperial=false
http://endurobearings.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/MAX15-New-PL0-2015-Full-.xlsx.pdf
http://medias.schaeffler.de/medias/hp.ec.br.pr/619..-2RSR*61900-2RSR;anJljrqjvei7?clrsb=1

INA 69002RS = 1280N / 2750N dynamic
SKF 69002RS = 850N / 2080N dynamic
Enduro 69002RS = 1348N / ????N dynamic
Enduro 6900MAX = 2158N / ????N dynamic

Even on the assumption that Enduro is not being honest about their load ratings (which I bet is the case - as if their standard 2RS bearing has a higher load rating than INA/FAG!), you can see that a full complement bearing does have a substantially higher static load rating than standard bearings (they don't provide dynamic values, but static is arguably more important in low rotation pivots anyway).

I am curious though, why is the SKF value so much lower, have they accidentally copied the value for stainless perhaps? Feel free to link a corrected chart if so.
 
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tacubaya

Monkey
Dec 19, 2009
720
89
Mexico City
Probably different raceway curvature and race hardness (or they did screw up the data).

Just ask someone who is coming from the US/Canada to get you some.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200

DirtMerchant

Chimp
Apr 17, 2014
34
2
Cylindrical roller bearings? No luck, the smallest ID I'm seeing for INA is 15mm. Seems overkill, anything will be better than Enduro.

That said, I'm guilty of using Enduro 75% of the time out of convenience and price (don't need to pay horrible shipping rates).
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Just to add something useful to this thread - it's important to separate bearing failure due to contamination (which some of you mentioned) vs. pitting due to excess load and/or localised loading due to low rotation. My concern here is definitely the latter, but for those who have had issues with dirt ingress past the Enduro seals (or rather the notches in the full-fill bearings which compromise the seals), this small mod of mine from 2009 might be useful:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/threads/the-official-iron-horse-sunday-dw-link-tech-tuning-section.168138/page-51#post-3247816




The scenario will be common where you technically need the load capacity of a full-fill bearing AND the sealing capacity of a regular-fill 2RS bearing, so in my opinion this is the correct solution (secondary sealing if not already present).

Cylindrical roller bearings? No luck, the smallest ID I'm seeing for INA is 15mm. Seems overkill, anything will be better than Enduro.

That said, I'm guilty of using Enduro 75% of the time out of convenience and price (don't need to pay horrible shipping rates).
I meant regular spherical ball bearings with full fill, but I did check the cylindricals also - both start in larger sizes like you said unfortunately.

I'm probably being unfair on Enduro to be honest (I've used them about 75% of the time in the past too), it'd have been nice to have an alternative and I wanted to know for sure - but it looks like the answer is no. I think it really does make sense to use those full complement bearings in most MTB pivots where the load rating of a bearing without a full fill would cause accelerated pitting.
 

tacubaya

Monkey
Dec 19, 2009
720
89
Mexico City
Udi,

Contamination and washout can lead to a loss of elastohydrodynamic lubrication which causes many problems (pitting, contact fatigue, plastic deformation, adhesive wear). Many times the bearing will operate under the static load rating yet contamination/washout can lead to issues that at first hand point to insufficient load rating when in reality the issue is something else.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
I'm well aware of this - I thought I made it really clear, but my bearings (that spurred this thread) were clean and free of contamination with original grease present as I said before.

The bearing failure in my case was very much loading related, and thus there is no question that a full complement bearing is required in this particular application - given that even with the extra load capacity (and no visible contamination or washout) pitting has occurred. Of course if someone wants to run an actual load capacity test on the bearing models and brands in question I'm all ears.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are two distinct issues that can occur and you can't correct one with the other - if you have insufficient load capacity in your bearings (which is something you can very easily do if you remove ~half the balls), then no amount of sealing and greasing is going to save them. The inverse obviously applies too which is what's pictured in the post above.
 

tacubaya

Monkey
Dec 19, 2009
720
89
Mexico City
Yeah, in your specific case, it clearly points out to a static load issue.

I was just pointing out the mechanism of failure because other people might open their bearings, see no grease or see contaminants, feel notches on the race and immediately think they need a MAX bearing, you know what I'm saying?
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,479
4,719
Australia
Do those NSK molded-oil bearings have a higher load rating than other non full complement bearings? Always thought they'd be epic for any bike application where sealing was an issue.
 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,882
447
Interesting conversation, sorry for the slight derail, but here goes: Why aren't plain or needle bearings used more often in applications like this where the diameter is small? It seems like it would help with the loading, but I'm no expert. Is it because roller bearings resist movement laterally?
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
I've gotten SKF 6900 for a frame rebuild before. FAG as well. I bought them through my machine shop so I can't remember what part number they were.

I'm with you on enduro bearings being poop. Before I got into industry I bought a set for my ringle hub, lasted 2 months. SKF and they lasted years. Then after my education in T&D the understanding of why became pretty apparent. SKF FTW.
 
Interesting conversation, sorry for the slight derail, but here goes: Why aren't plain or needle bearings used more often in applications like this where the diameter is small? It seems like it would help with the loading, but I'm no expert. Is it because roller bearings resist movement laterally?
Mfg tolerance (cough first gen Rune) and/or thrust loading. Ball bearings are just the simplest answer
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
I've gotten SKF 6900 for a frame rebuild before. FAG as well. I bought them through my machine shop so I can't remember what part number they were.

I'm with you on enduro bearings being poop. Before I got into industry I bought a set for my ringle hub, lasted 2 months. SKF and they lasted years. Then after my education in T&D the understanding of why became pretty apparent. SKF FTW.
Do you mean 6900 in full complement / full-fill format? 6900 in normal caged varieties (standard deep-groove cartridge) are easy to find but not really appropriate here.

I am curious though - do you have any actual data backing why an enduro bearing would be inferior in a frame application? I'm not sure if you used MAX bearings in your hub but that's not really what they're designed for and I would expect premature failure there. I'm not disagreeing with you but you really do have to compare apples to apples here - and lightweight MTB frames are (unfortunately) one place where these enduro full complement bearings make a lot of sense. Everyone is trying to make their frames lighter which means smaller bearings, and a need for extra load capacity within a given size. The MAX bearings provide this, and their disadvantages such as poor high-rpm performance are non-considerations (given average rotations of between 10 and 90deg), and even the inferior sealing (due to the filling grooves) can be mitigated by secondary sealing on the frame.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I probably jumped to some conclusions personally, and I think it would take reliable independent test data to say these bearings are inferior in a frame application. From the data I have so far they unfortunately seem like a superior choice.

Yeah, in your specific case, it clearly points out to a static load issue.
Your post started with my username so I assumed it was directed at me - guess you meant the other Udi. That guy is a massive squid anyway, just between me and you.

I agree with you for sure, but most modern frames spec full-comp stock these days, and a lot of them seem to exploit the extra load benefits by speccing smaller sized bearings (not sure I agree with that - but it is what it is) - so I think what's more likely is people putting regular bearings into places where they technically shouldn't go. I think there are some cases where that's fine to do, but with frames becoming more and more weight optimised I think unfortunately my scenario is becoming more common.

It would be really cool if SKF or similar offered full comp frame bearing kits at some stage like they offer seals, I think those seals moved the industry a step forward (even just encouraging similar performance from RS/RB) and it'd be nice to see the same happen with bearings.

Interesting conversation, sorry for the slight derail, but here goes: Why aren't plain or needle bearings used more often in applications like this where the diameter is small? It seems like it would help with the loading, but I'm no expert. Is it because roller bearings resist movement laterally?
Yep you nailed it, radial ball bearings provide an axial reaction. The other factor is simplicity and cost of both implementation and replacement. Needles may have high radial load capacities, but already add cost and complexity (cartridge needle bearings are rare in small sizes) - if you switch to angular contact needles then you need to worry about preload mechanisms and muppet owners. Non cartridge varieties are also hard to seal and require better frame tolerances, in the end it's really not worth it.

Plain bearings or bushings can have the same issues with tolerances, and always have more friction - particularly static - which is a big factor in something that is constantly changing direction rather than just rotating.

The other thing is failure mode - bushings will develop noticeable play and needle bearings can do the same or seize altogether with water ingress. The humble sealed radial bearing in frames seems to rarely even notify the user of its failure, play rarely develops, and all you'll notice is some roughness or pitting when you bother pulling the frame apart to rotate them by hand. Then you just replace the entire unit at low cost - and whinge about it anyway if you're me. :)
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,057
1,298
Styria
Well, my post is serious.

You made a great joke there. Congratulations!
The only full sus frame I ever owned that did not come with the cheapest bearings installed and failing during one year was my '99 DHS Mono. All the other ones were due within 12 +/-3 months, Giant, Specialized, Scott, Kona, choose any. The worst ones come with Special Eds bikes, they are a joke.
 

troy

Turbo Monkey
Dec 3, 2008
1,006
739
If you don't want to change the type of bearing than you might consider changing your hardware diameter and using 8x22x7 bearings
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
Do you mean 6900 in full complement / full-fill format? 6900 in normal caged varieties (standard deep-groove cartridge) are easy to find but not really appropriate here.

I am curious though - do you have any actual data backing why an enduro bearing would be inferior in a frame application? I'm not sure if you used MAX bearings in your hub but that's not really what they're designed for and I would expect premature failure there. I'm not disagreeing with you but you really do have to compare apples to apples here - and lightweight MTB frames are (unfortunately) one place where these enduro full complement bearings make a lot of sense. Everyone is trying to make their frames lighter which means smaller bearings, and a need for extra load capacity within a given size. The MAX bearings provide this, and their disadvantages such as poor high-rpm performance are non-considerations (given average rotations of between 10 and 90deg), and even the inferior sealing (due to the filling grooves) can be mitigated by secondary sealing on the frame.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I probably jumped to some conclusions personally, and I think it would take reliable independent test data to say these bearings are inferior in a frame application. From the data I have so far they unfortunately seem like a superior choice.

They were max type bearings that I used in the frame for pivots, referring to the 6900. I'd need to go back and check, they were for my Lambda frame back in 2005 so it's been a while. The hub bearings were touted at enduro direct replacement for them, can't remember, again as it's been a while, but I do know I ended up using SKF. I worked as a shop mech for a few years back in college days, so came across them pretty often when a customer wanted a *cheap* bearing replacement.

As for data, I could bother with explaining how inferior manufacturing, tolerances and quality (one to the next) affects the durability of a bearing, but I'm sure you already get that. To give you an idea, I'm a certified tool and die maker. Left that for process planning but still cut my teeth on metallurgy and making things in an aerospace machine shop. We used bearings of all sorts on our machines, and one day I had to replace a few on a smaller machine and used an enduro bearing I had that happened to fit. Lasted all of a few months iirc. before it wore out and wobble started. replaced with a proper bearing (can't remember if it was Timken or SKF) and it's still going strong till this day, over 6 years later. Go figure. Black oxide is a gimmick (give me a PVD coating if you want to make an actual protective layer), 52100 in the steel for races isn't anything worth writing home about as it's pretty standard. Chromium steel ball bearings, the same, but what kind, what process? I highly doubt they are as tightly toleranced as even SKF standard or explorer even though they state standards (are they actually manufacturing these, or are they outsourced to china to the specifications?), and I have doubts regarding the materials and process based on my experiences with them. The cycling industry gobbles it up but anyone with actual experience with them know they are pretty basic bearings. Maybe things have changed in the last few years, which wouldn't surprise me, but from my experience and education on the topic, they aren't exactly 'high end' bearings. Antidotal, sure, but at least it's based on some experiences and understanding of it all which when compiled with the dozens of reports on other peoples bad experiences adds up.
 
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tomasis7

stroganoff
Nov 5, 2014
623
65
Electronic bong-shed LEGAL
The only full sus frame I ever owned that did not come with the cheapest bearings installed and failing during one year was my '99 DHS Mono. All the other ones were due within 12 +/-3 months, Giant, Specialized, Scott, Kona, choose any. The worst ones come with Special Eds bikes, they are a joke.
Lets talk about latest generation bikes. Itd be joke if they use cheaper bearings on 3000dollar frames. The weakest link in chain..you know.

If skf has smaller bearings in market,I bet that spez,trek,giant and other corp are fast to switch to them. Skf seals on fox forks is good example.

If skf see an opportunity to sell smaller bearings ,they would release..otherwise it doesn't make sense due smaller volume or physical limitation,who knows. At least Banshee and Scott gambler (two examples in my mind) are designed to take less load on bearings (less rotation as well) , look at bushing problem at first generation of spitfire/rune. There Udi was talking about issue of bearing loading.
 
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Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
We used bearings of all sorts on our machines, and one day I had to replace a few on a smaller machine and used an enduro bearing I had that happened to fit. Lasted all of a few months iirc. before it wore out and wobble started. replaced with a proper bearing (can't remember if it was Timken or SKF) and it's still going strong till this day, over 6 years later. Go figure.
Appreciate your reply, and I don't doubt this at all, but your experience in no way actually proves that an Enduro MAX bearing is not superior to a regular fill SKF/Timken/etc bearing in a bicycle suspension pivot application - which unfortunately is all that seems to be available.

Now if the SKF 6900 for example actually exists in MAX format currently then I'm all ears - if this bearing exists then please do link it because I couldn't find it. It's the exact reason I posted this thread - I wanted to buy some bearings.

If what you say is true then either the bearing is still available, or they discontinued it.
 

tacubaya

Monkey
Dec 19, 2009
720
89
Mexico City
There are 2 other brands I know of that have full complement ball bearings but they are Taiwanese so I guess it's not very useful information.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
Appreciate your reply, and I don't doubt this at all, but your experience in no way actually proves that an Enduro MAX bearing is not superior to a regular fill SKF/Timken/etc bearing in a bicycle suspension pivot application - which unfortunately is all that seems to be available.

Now if the SKF 6900 for example actually exists in MAX format currently then I'm all ears - if this bearing exists then please do link it because I couldn't find it. It's the exact reason I posted this thread - I wanted to buy some bearings.

If what you say is true then either the bearing is still available, or they discontinued it.
Yes it does actually prove that. My experience shows it as do other peoples experiences. Then Im explaining a bit about materials and processes. Where are enduro bearings even made? Oh right, their suppliers are a secret. But we know full well where they come from...

I will check for you 6900. I know for a fact I have one or two left.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
No it doesn't prove that at all, in fact I'd bet it's not the case.
You might have misread though - notice I said "vs. a regular fill SKF/Timken", i.e. non-MAX. The reason I said that is because I can't actually find these bearings from good brands in MAX format.

I have no doubt that if MAX versions existed they'd be superior to the Enduro items in this application, and I agree with you on the shady background. However unless I can easily purchase an alternative, it's a straw man.

Let me know how you go and thanks for checking. They really need to exist on an official and current product listing.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
What isnt the case?


You can search for 61900 instead of 6900... but you already know that. Saw the load reports and agree thats odd. Deep groove would help if you cant find em.

bUt yea, looks like their full complement was replaced with explorer! Have you checked the load rating on those? Ill ask canadian bearing on monday and see what they have. How crazy would it be if Enduro is the only one left making them.
 
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