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Need help with this 10sp crap...

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by boylagz, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. boylagz New Member

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    Please forgive me for being so ocd, but here it is:

    So my V10 is full 10sp now, X9 Type 2 RD+shifter, SRAM RED OG 10sp 11-25 cassette and a kmc 10sp chain. I can only go thru gears 2-10, cant get up the biggest 25t cog. Sometimes it goes up, but most of the time it doesnt. This issue doesnt really bother me, the major thing is my indexing right now is ****! I have set my limit screws correctly, and pretty sure my der. hanger is straight. B tension is around 8-10mm between the upper cage pulley and smallest 11t cog.

    Im pissed. Expected it would be smooth since everything is 10sp now, and my kmc chain is practically new. My 10sp rear der. + 9sp cassette and shifter ghetto combo before this worked better...

    I have set my barrel adjuster loose enough that the upshifts (to harder gears) are kinda smooth. My downshifts are ****tier, sometimes it would be smooth but most times its just a very loud, annoying rattle! If I set the barrel tight enough so the downshifts are smooth, Ill have the problems with not upshifting smoothly. If you guys have any suggestions Id really love to hear them. Thank you.
    #1 Nov 9, 2012   
  2. yd35 Member

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    Sounds like you've done everything right on the rear, maybe the problem lies in your crankset? If you have any spacers inserted between the crank and the BB on the drive side, then perhaps taking them out would allow you to get to the lowest gear.
    #2 Nov 9, 2012   
  3. boylagz New Member

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    I have one, drive side. Could a 2.5mm spacer mess the chain line that bad?! Im using E13 cranks...
    #3 Nov 9, 2012   
  4. OGRipper Active Member

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    10sp is only slightly more finicky and should not do this. It sounds like something else is going on.

    Ordinarily when you get uneven shifting across your cassette it means your derailleur or hanger is bent or your cable is messed up and binding. If that stuff is all ok, make sure your chain is long enough. If so, check the location of the upper pulley as you go to shift into the 25. If the upper pulley is smacking into the cog it won't shift into that gear smoothly. If that all checks out, it's probably the limit screw. I like to check it by moving the derailleur with my hand, not the cable/shifter.

    The fact that you can't shift into the 11 means either the limit screw is set wrong, the cable is binding, or your derailleur is toast. I stopped riding SRAM rear derailleurs because i found it too easy to crush the parallelograms enough that they wouldn't shift to my highest gear. The smallest tag would do it, and once crushed like that the outer plate would catch on the derailleur housing before it moved out enough to shift.
    #4 Nov 9, 2012   
  5. boylagz New Member

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    My chain is long enough, 4 extra individual links using the big-big wrap around method... And I can shift to the 11 cog no problem, its the 25 that I cant get to/use. Both the cassette and shifter are brand new. Derailleur is like 2 months old, same with the chain. Shifting is really very noisy :( Also when I get to the biggest 25 cog the top cage pulley is waaay far from the cog, so no binding at all.

    I will do the adjustments again later, starting from zero after work... If I still cant get things to work as Id want Ill let the lbs check the hanger, and the rd itself if indeed its whacked. I honestly doubt the rd is damaged, never crashed, didnt get hit, or anything that would bend it...
    #5 Nov 9, 2012   
  6. wood booger Member

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    You really need to ditch that stoopid SRAM Red cassette. Put is on CL and sell it to some roadie for $75 and get yourself a 10 spd Shimano ultegra cassette.

    All the noisy, crappy shifting will be a thing of the past. You will actually be able to adjust it so it drops into the 11, and shifts out of it, like butter.

    I fought a 10 spd Red cassette for months before I put something else on and all problems went away.
    #6 Nov 9, 2012   
  7. boylagz New Member

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    I hear you. Somehow I just want to do what I can to make this work...
    #7 Nov 9, 2012   
  8. wood booger Member

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    I almost guarantee you you won't get it to shift like you want with that cassette. The XX cassettes are almost as bad.

    I think those steel cassettes cut from a single piece have tolerance/warping/spacing issues. I have never had one that worked as well as a cheaper cassette.
    #8 Nov 9, 2012   
  9. Routier07 New Member

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    I had quite a hard time with Sram cassette & chains lately, I would recommend either getting a 105(5700) or ultegra(6700) cassette with a SLX chain, the ramping on the shimano Mtn chains are abit more aggressive and tend to deal alot better with dirt/mud/crap.

    A setup that I like alot is taking a 11-34 SLX 10spd cassette and throwing the seperate top 3 rings in the garbage and just using the bottom seven as a 11-23ratio. It shifts so smooth and I don't double or triple shift as often as I used to.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
    #9 Nov 9, 2012   
  10. marshalolson Active Member

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    ^^^gotta agree^^^

    always thought 9spd sram worked a bit better than 9spd shimano

    but the 10spd stuff @ sram sorta sucks. much prefer shimano these days.
    #10 Nov 9, 2012   
  11. rockofullr confused

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    My first move would be check your hanger alignment. 10 sp is more sensitive to hanger alignment issues due to the tight tolerances.

    Does the shifter click into the correct gear? Have you tried screwing the limit screw out all the way just to rule this out as the issue? Have you checked your b-tension?
    #11 Nov 9, 2012   
  12. boylagz New Member

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    Ill have my lbs check the hanger tomorrow to be 100% its not crooked/bent. Also, Im told the Red OG cassette needs the roadie double tap shifter to work properly... :( I dunno guys, Im just frustrated. I just pm'd the seller of the cassette, I want to return it if theyre cool with it. Tbh I originally wanted the dura ace 12-25 10sp, but just thought Id stick with sram since I NEVER had an issue. Until now...
    #12 Nov 9, 2012   
  13. boylagz New Member

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    Also with the clicks to the right gears, yes it does click correctly. Its just the indexing is not accurate. Its never good for both up and down shifts.
    #13 Nov 9, 2012   
  14. JMK New Member

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    For that size cassette you really need the XO DH RD from Sram. They specifically made it for cassettes that are 27t or smaller, and it fixes the exact issue you're having. Unfortunately they don't make a type 2 version of that one yet...
    #14 Nov 9, 2012   
  15. epic Member

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    Is the cable on the right side of the fixing bolt?
    #15 Nov 9, 2012   
  16. Lelandjt Active Member

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    The B screw should be set in the largest cog and so it's close but not interferring. Then if it interfers with shifting into the top gear turn it in till it doesn't (road or DH derailleur avoid this problem). Limit screws should be so the chain goes straight onto the large cog and just outside of smallest. If housing is clean and lubed tension should be easy to set so the chain doean't quite catch on adjacent larger cogs. I've had good luck with all the new Sram stuff I've been working on and V10s have a very short and straight routing that results in low friction and generally good shifting. The middle section should be taught at suspension top-out. The other sections shouldn't be longer than neccessary to avoid pulling the cable.

    This happens sometimes and the clicks in the shifter won't match up with the cassette.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
    #16 Nov 10, 2012   
  17. boylagz New Member

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    ^ I've set the B screw both at the smallest 11t cog and the largest 25t, no binding/interference at all. Like I said around 8-10mm distance in the smallest cog, and waaay more at the largest.

    Thanks a lot for all the input, I appreciate it a lot. Got home super late, but still did a little more tweaking; loosened the cable from the bolt and did the manual derailleur push towards the inside/to the largest cog, the travel is spot on for the whole range of the cassette. It's a little better now, but still not where I want it to be. All shifts to harder cogs are all pretty much smooth now. But shifts to softer gears are still a pain though :| I will pedal the bike around tomorrow and see how shifting is under load. If it's gonna be worse I will get either Dura-Ace or Ultegra.

    Thanks again guys.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
    #17 Nov 10, 2012   
  18. Lelandjt Active Member

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    I think you can back off the B screw some and add some cable tension until upshifts are slow or the chain is rubbing on adjacent larger cogs. With clutch derailleurs downshifts feel heavier and not as clean but that seems to be their nature.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
    #18 Nov 10, 2012   
  19. frango Active Member

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    I don't want to hijack the thread, but... ;) my question is relate to 10sp drivetrain
    I was planning to buy Zee rear mech, replace pulleys to be compatible with 9sp chain, get some 9sp shifter and use it with SLX/Saint 11-28 cassette, I've got...
    But, whan I talked about it with friendly Shimano employee, he told it would not work, coz 9sp shifter is not compatible with 10sp rear mech.
    Have any1 tried to do it?
    #19 Nov 10, 2012   
  20. boylagz New Member

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    You are correct. Downshifts get hard in the last 4 softest gears. Your thumb will hurt, guaranteed. Yea like I said, Ive set it up now that somehow its kinda manageable, but I will still have my lbs look at it today, again, and see whats really up. I am ready to pull the trigger on a DA or Ultegra cassette, ugh this is just frustrating.
    #20 Nov 10, 2012   
  21. boylagz New Member

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    Ive made a sram 10sp rear der work with a 9sp cassette, shifter and chain. Its not perfect, but it can be done. Shifting from the hardest cog to about 4th gear is flawless. From 4 to 1 is where it gets problematic. I didnt care much since I only used the harder gears. I ran a sram pg970 11-26 before in my ghetto 9/10sp drivetrain combo.
    #21 Nov 10, 2012   
  22. Udi Active Member

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    That won't work because the new Shimano 10spd mountain mechs/shifters use a different cable actuation ratio to their 9spd gear. Thus if you use a Zee mech, you also need a Shimano 10spd shifter and 10spd cassette.
    #22 Nov 10, 2012   
  23. dylan s New Member

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    My shimano ultegra 10speed cassette came with a tiny metal spacer (maybe a mm thick) to put between the hub and the cassette. Maybe you are in need of one.
    #23 Nov 10, 2012   
  24. boylagz New Member

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    I heard 10sp Shimano cassettes have that spacer. SRAM doesnt.
    #24 Nov 11, 2012   
  25. slimshady Member

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    I'm going with the bent derailleur hanger approach here. I have a short X9 Type II rear der paired to a PG 1050 11-26 cassette/PC1050 chain and shifting is even smoother than with my previous X9 9sp setup...

    You should check your cable and housing too, a lot of mud/grit inside the housing can make the best gruppo shift like crap.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
    #25 Nov 11, 2012   
  26. kgm New Member

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    hanger alignment.
    #26 Nov 11, 2012   
  27. frango Active Member

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    That's bummer :(
    It seems I will stick to Sram for a little longer while and try same money for proper 10sp cassette (maybe reduced to 6-7 gears) and chain (Yaban SL-100CR?) and Zee or even Saint rear mech.
    #27 Nov 11, 2012   
  28. DirtyMike Turbo Fluffer

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    I love these threads.....

    Not trying to be mean or be-littling.... but rear mechs are not this complicated....

    Start with hanger alignment.... ALL BIKES..... install your mech and chain, start with setting the bscrew... largest cog only..... thats the only place it matters.... Set your minit screws... manually shift the mech from smallest to largest and back a few times to be sure the limits are good.... Install your cbale and make your fine tune adjustments....... it is that easy



    Oh, forgot one thing...... Start off with aprts that were actually intended for the application your using them in...
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
    #28 Nov 11, 2012   
  29. Ringer New Member

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    Sense we are on the 10 speed topic - Who has been snapping WAY more cables on SRAM equipped 10 speed derailleurs? Hardly any riding time on my new 10 speed setup and already snapping cables. Looks like while the previous 9 speed parts used a plastic rollamajig section to redirect the cable the 10 speed uses an aluminum piece that really digs into the cable. Similar problem anyone? If it keeps up - bye bye SRAM
    #29 Nov 11, 2012   
  30. pillete New Member

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    I had the same issue you are describing, everything was Sram brand new, checked the hanger alignment, chainline, cables, etc and between me and 3 other VERY experienced mechanics we were not able to get it to shift properly. Contacted Sram and the sent me a new derailleur and still didn't work. The only way we got it to work was by replacing the chain and cassette with Shimano Ultegra parts. I hope this helps.
    #30 Nov 11, 2012   
  31. joeg Member

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    Sounds like you need eleven speed.
    #31 Nov 11, 2012   
  32. joeg Member

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    Snarky humor aside, Shimano makes the saint/zee rear ders so they have a chip you take out so the b tension tab on the hanger is in the right spot if you're running less than a 28t large cog. It lets the whole rd swing closer in so the top pulley is near the cogs.
    I don't know if SRAM does, but this might just be a case of parts that weren't designed to work together - which someone else said already. But it kinda sounds that way.
    #32 Nov 11, 2012   
  33. boylagz New Member

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    Shifted the Type 2 rd with the cage lock on, it shifts way better; both up and down. Did it to see if the clutch made a difference. It did. The clutch makes it harder to shift as you go up to softer gears.
    SRAM doesn't do the chip adjuster for different sized cassettes as Shimano does. I understand some components aren't designed to work together (esp. between road and mountain components), but knowing road cassettes have always been used for downhill (and worked quite well) to get a closer gear ratio, made me go this route. I'll rep back when I get the hanger checked 100%, and the cable and housing changed.
    #33 Nov 12, 2012   
  34. wood booger Member

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    Yep, I have seen lots of the same. Just wait until the entire piece that is cutting though the cables snaps off rendering your derailleur useless. I am looking at two on my desk right now that say XX on them....
    I took some sandpaper and smoothed it out a few times, but the fix does not last long.


    It would be nice if SRAM actually cared how the product performed past the initial test ride. That stuff is damn pricey to be so disposable.

    Time to give XTR a shot again!
    #34 Nov 12, 2012   
  35. Ringer New Member

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    Ya, I'm starting to think it's time to make the switch after this ordeal. I love me some SRAM, matchamkers and being able to clean up the bars but snapping cables left and right isn't worth it.

    It's hard to see, but I think part of the issue is the cable stop angle not aligning with the rollamajig, especially when in the bigger cogs.
    photo (1).JPG
    #35 Nov 13, 2012   
  36. in the trees Active Member

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    I'm running a Jagwire Flexible V-Brake Noodle from the housing directly into the RD. I have not have any cable/housing issues.
    #36 Nov 13, 2012   
  37. descente New Member

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    and here i thought the whole point behind 10 speed was that you could still run the same 11-25 ratio spacing but add a 28t gear as well. 10 speeds between 11 and 25? you must like to shift a lot or something...
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
    #37 Nov 13, 2012   
  38. boylagz New Member

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    My main reason for going 10 is the clutch mech, not having more gears. Bike really was more silent when I ran my 9/10sp ghetto setup. Just my thing. Silent bikes.
    #38 Nov 13, 2012   
  39. frango Active Member

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    I am with you. But, it pisses me a little bit, that I have to replace so many components, to have 1, new feature - clutch.
    #39 Nov 13, 2012   
  40. Ringer New Member

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    If you like the crisp feeling of your old 9 speed x9/x0 setups don't bother with 10 speed - i'm pretty disappointed.
    #40 Nov 13, 2012   

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