I actually tend to ride more forward...possibly too much. But I've tried riding back and neither seem to work for me. Bike is a 951EVO with dorado fork. I can lay my entire weight on the front and the front tire still washes out...taking some of the knobs with it. LOL!
help!! with a weridish problem.
- Thread starter dhkid
- Start date
question for you...are you running shit tires? the only times I've experienced the front washing out was when I was running too slack a head angle for my terrain and ability level, and when I was running kenda tires.
and what kind of terrain are you always washing out on
I had a similar issue with my M9. I slackened it out to 62.5 and it helped. But the EVO doesn't have any adjustments persay. I've tried a few different tires but settled on the hans Dampf as I had ridden them on other bikes and liked them.
Terrain is the typical SoCal....light sand over hardpack. But it washes in other areas that are just regular dirt too.
Possibly this. Fast rebound will push the wheel back out as soon as it compresses. It can cause your wheel to walk and climb in corners. Slower rebound will let the wheel pack up a bit more in front.
Troy & Mandown, Historically speaking thats what I've done to remedy understeer - but oddly for reasons I can't explain, it doesn't seem to work on the newer bikes. I'm currently running the rebound faster than I ever have as it seems to mitigate the understeer moreso than with it set slow. I'm really at a loss as to what setup changes I can make at this point to get the rear sliding first.
well, then it sounds like you need to adjust your rear shock. it is a balancing act. dial down the spring rate and or compression and or rebound on the back to get it to sink in faster than the fork.
If You are suffering from understeer, than either Your front is too high or rear too low. How much sag are You running?
If Your front is too high, try lowering Your fork on the clamps, decrease preload, slow down the rebound and open up the compression a little bit (~2-3 clicks). If Your rear sits too low then add some preload to the spring, set te rebound a little faster and compression a little harder (it should help with rear end skidding, like You want)
If Your front is too high, try lowering Your fork on the clamps, decrease preload, slow down the rebound and open up the compression a little bit (~2-3 clicks). If Your rear sits too low then add some preload to the spring, set te rebound a little faster and compression a little harder (it should help with rear end skidding, like You want)
Thanks Troy. This is why I'm perplexed...I've pretty much done that. Running a little less than 30% sag(.8" on a 3" shock); running a 500lb spring(CC site says I should be using a 400lb); running my air pressure on my fork 12psi less (60 instead of 72); replaced my 1.5" bar with a .8" one and no spacers; Can't drop crowns any further - barely have 8" clearance now; running rear LSC at 16 clicks in and HSC at 0.5 turns in - any more and it gets way too spikey in the rocks; reduced TPC and HSC on fork to only around 4 clicks in on each; tried rebound on fork slower but it seemed to make it worse slightly....
In addition I've played with weight forward; weight back; leaning inside of bike in turn; angulating the bike; outside knee pressed into frame; both knees pointing outwards; flat back; hips unlocked; hips tucked; seated turns; heel dropping; etc.....some of the techniques seemed to kinda work for a few turns but then ceased working. Feel like I'm in a twilight zone episode at this point. LOL!
In addition I've played with weight forward; weight back; leaning inside of bike in turn; angulating the bike; outside knee pressed into frame; both knees pointing outwards; flat back; hips unlocked; hips tucked; seated turns; heel dropping; etc.....some of the techniques seemed to kinda work for a few turns but then ceased working. Feel like I'm in a twilight zone episode at this point. LOL!
Haha...only if I can pose naked wearing boobie tassles with it!
I'll try the lighter spring and see if it helps...logically it seems that this would make it worse, but nothing seems to be following 'logic' on this quest anyways so why not! LOL!
If I was you I'd probably just quit bikes.
Lighter spring in the rear will help the rear move in proportion to the front. Until then, enjoy your hard tail.
Haha...probably!Your Intense frame is probably out of alignment
Schwalbe tires suck.
Is that drop stem for dorado or a regular one? Try measuring how high is Your handlebar center from the ground, dorado has very long a2c... How tall are You and what size is that 951?
Its the flat crown that comes stock with this years dorado expert. AtoC is as low as I can go - have barely 8" between tire and bottom of crown.
I'm 6'4" and its a large frame, and I think I measured the grip height at around 42.5" with my renthal bar and haven't measured it with this gravity light bar - but it is higher. Running the lower bar made technical descents a little less comfortable and I didn't notice it helped mitigate the understeer much if at all.
Aaaaand here it is. I have 20mm riser bar, and 888 chassi slammed down to minimum (580 a2c - which is still more than a boxxer) and my handlebar center is 40" above the ground. So Your bars are 2,5" higher...
EDIT:
thought it is 951 26"... but still, i think Your handlebar is too high = long headtube, standard DM stem instead of that one:
How much sag are You running on dorado?
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Wholly sh't! How tall are you and what size frame? And are you on a 27.5 bike?
I'm 6' 1.5", custom built frame (~Large), 26", I've edited my earlier post. Sorry, I thought it was 26" 951.
Even tho... 27.5" tires are not that much bigger than 2.5" minions. Those Schwalbes are what 27.9" dia.? This is just 0.5" more on bb/handlebar height in compare to 26" bike...
Even tho... 27.5" tires are not that much bigger than 2.5" minions. Those Schwalbes are what 27.9" dia.? This is just 0.5" more on bb/handlebar height in compare to 26" bike...
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Which schwalbes are you running? I had good luck with mine in SoCal.
Sometimes I run shit on my tires.
Wholly sh't! How tall are you and what size frame? And are you on a 27.5 bike?
I think I can get the bar down to 41.5" with the gear I have here. Though I tried it lower and found I didn't ride as aggressive on our steep technical stuff...didn't feel confident at all though I did ride everything fine.
Since I'm 2 1/2" taller than you, perhaps a little higher setup is better for me?!?
Mandown: The Hans Damf 27.5 super gravity trailstar compound(they don't make the vertstar in 27.5 yet).
I liked them too aside from the side knobs ripping off so quick. I felt they were as good or better than Maxxis here in Socal.
I would say that it depends on Your body proportions legs/torso/hands. I checked 951evo geo and for Large size they say it has 18" reach, BUT only 23" stack... so it is not such a big frame after all, especially considering it is a 650b bike. Been there, done that. Had problems with steep stuff and rough sections. Then I've tried my friends bikes (1 size bigger) and all of the sudden I stopped trouching my brakes immediately, I could attack every section sooo much harder than before. Huge confidence booster. Had no problems with understeer tho, but WB on that bike was really short, so that would explain why. If You would think of it more, 951 EVO has 31.5" front center, so maybe when You will combine it with short cockpit, You have not enough weight on front axle to get proper traction? Just a guess... What other bikes were Your riding before Intense?
I've had many bikes over the years. The best cornering bike I'd say for me was the Sunday - though I felt it was horrible in everything else especially rocks and flat landings. But I could drift a 180 degree turn, feet up, no brakes.
I've been predominantly on Intense since the M1 (I've had an M1, Haro DHR made by intense, KHS dominatrax custom, KHS LTS w/DH kit, 3 Turner DHR's - early and late models, Orange 222, Intense M3, Sunday, Intense 951, Intense M9, Intense 951 EVO.)
I got the EVO mainly because of the reach - I like a really long downtube/reach on my bikes and the EVO had an inch longer downtube and I think a 1/2" longer reach. And I rode an early review EVO (the blue one that was floating around for a while) and found it cornered close to the way I like. I tried to emulate the setup from that one but appearantly I've missed something as mine doesn't handle the same...I tried the same bars, tires, wheels, fork, stem length, seat height, bar height, etc.... Unfortunately I didn't make note of the damper settings on that one so I don't know what it was set at.
As far as body proportions, I think I have a +3 ape index, i.e. my reach is 3" longer that my height.
Yesterday I tried the rebound on the fork a few clicks slower for half of the trail. It held a little tighter line inside the turn, but at the limits of traction the front still wanted to go first most of the time. However, with it set slower it drifted a bit better in some gravel at the bottom of the trail - but nowhere else.
It got late and was starting to rain so I didn't get a chance to try the softer spring (400 instead of 500). If the weather lets up I'll try it today and see if it helps.
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In my opinion problem is with the frame geometry. This bike has WB like X-Large 650b demo and cockpit size like on medium one, that's probably why You have too little weight on the front=no grip.
You can't talk about reach without taking into consideration the stack height. Your 951Evo has 18" reach and 23" stack so Your effective down tube lenght is 29.2". Now XL demo has ~same reach, but 1.5" bigger stack and now Your eff. dt lenght is 30.5".
Your long hands makes it even worse, because it shifts Your weight distribution toward the rear axle. And that would partialy explain correct(ish) sag with firmer spring.
You can't talk about reach without taking into consideration the stack height. Your 951Evo has 18" reach and 23" stack so Your effective down tube lenght is 29.2". Now XL demo has ~same reach, but 1.5" bigger stack and now Your eff. dt lenght is 30.5".
Your long hands makes it even worse, because it shifts Your weight distribution toward the rear axle. And that would partialy explain correct(ish) sag with firmer spring.
Interesting....Measuring the DT length shows 27.5" from bottom center of headtube to center of BB. Which is the same as the review/test EVO I rode. I've found in the past it seems the longer the reach on a frame the better I like it all the way around. I think a longer reach allows me to comfortably move forward without being in a structurally weak shoulder position, i.e. a press position versus a delt-raise like position.
That being said, I tend to ride pretty far forward anyways. I've tried moving way forward on this bike, so much so that I'm tearing the front knobs off. LOL!
As far as sag, I'm getting about 0.8" in the rear on a 3" stroke shock which puts it less than 30%(probably more around 27%).
And the question still remains, why did the test/review EVO I rode handle better all things being equal?!
This seems to be like that old TV series the X-files where the truth is out there....but you never find out what it is and each episode leaves you with more questions than answers. Haha...
Reach is measured to the upper centter of the ht 
Longer reach is good, but You can't compare frame sizes without knowing the stack measurment.
Maybe You should get in touch with Intense guys... and ask them? Maybe the made some changes for the production models?
About the Dorado setup. Those 4 Clicks are from fully open or fully closed? When someone asks You about damper/fork setup, alwas say nr of clicks from fully closed. I would strat from setting TPC+ and HSC to 8 clicks off (middle of the range) and than adjust it in -1 click of HSC and +1TPC manner (for rough tracks and the other way for some flowy ones: +1HSC -1TPC + slow down the rebound). Rebound to 8-9clicks from fully closed and then adjust Your damper to similar rebound speed. That would be a good starting point...
Longer reach is good, but You can't compare frame sizes without knowing the stack measurment.
Maybe You should get in touch with Intense guys... and ask them? Maybe the made some changes for the production models?
About the Dorado setup. Those 4 Clicks are from fully open or fully closed? When someone asks You about damper/fork setup, alwas say nr of clicks from fully closed. I would strat from setting TPC+ and HSC to 8 clicks off (middle of the range) and than adjust it in -1 click of HSC and +1TPC manner (for rough tracks and the other way for some flowy ones: +1HSC -1TPC + slow down the rebound). Rebound to 8-9clicks from fully closed and then adjust Your damper to similar rebound speed. That would be a good starting point...
I have spoken to Intense about the sizing and they said they didn't believe there were any changes to the geo from the review bike to the 2015 model I have. And looking back on the early geo charts, everything looks identical to the new one.....however, for some reason Intense has listed the reach as nearly the same as the medium sized frame - they said they'd look into it but that didn't sound right and that it had to be a typo on their site. I agree because the WB is consistently an inch longer throughout the sizes which paralleled the reach on their earlier chart.
On the Dorado, I've always made my notes from fully open - I know its not as accurate as it is measured from fully closed, but it helps keep it straight in my mind and notes I've kept over the years.
I tried the middle of the road settings as you suggest, and worked my way to the current settings through trial and error, finding that my current ones seem to mitigate the understeer the most.
Looking at my notes my dampers are set as follows:
Fork:
Question: does the Dorado build up air pressure in the damper side over time?
On the Dorado, I've always made my notes from fully open - I know its not as accurate as it is measured from fully closed, but it helps keep it straight in my mind and notes I've kept over the years.
I tried the middle of the road settings as you suggest, and worked my way to the current settings through trial and error, finding that my current ones seem to mitigate the understeer the most.
Looking at my notes my dampers are set as follows:
Fork:
TPC/LSC = 6 clicks in
HSC = 5 clicks in
Rebound = 8 clicks in
PSI = 68
Shock(CCDB):HSC = 5 clicks in
Rebound = 8 clicks in
PSI = 68
LSC = 14 clicks in
HSC = 0.5 turns in
LSR = 17 clicks in
HSR = 2.5 turns in
spring = 500lb
HSC = 0.5 turns in
LSR = 17 clicks in
HSR = 2.5 turns in
spring = 500lb
Question: does the Dorado build up air pressure in the damper side over time?
On your last question: As far as I understand, yes - that is a common problem. I'm basing it on what I've been told and read (e.g. the comment by 'akirizu' below the rebuild post over at PB, and in a thread here at RM), though, not actual experience.
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Do you just unscrew the damper side cap to release the pressure or do you have to unbolt the lower?
I've never done it myself, so the post by akirizu is more helpful (link above). I believe it is just unscrewing carefully to let the air out.
Well, today I was really struggling with the front end washing and proceeded to try 101 different techniques, each had some merit but didn't completely mitigate the understeer. On a whim I sped up my rebound on the fork and, like magic reduced the understeer dramatically - though it feels a bit pogo-y now. The front was still sliding but only slightly more than the rear, while being an improvement is still not up to my standards. Then I tried burping the damper side of the fork and low and behold a sh't ton of air came out. After which my fork felt much more plush and it stopped the front from totally washing out; when it would slide it would eventually grab again without dumping me on my face. So between burping the fork and speeding up the rebound I almost have it handling in an acceptable manner, almost!
Troy, I just realized you said you measured from the center of your handlebar to the ground. I measured from the top of my grips to the ground - both sides to find an accurate measurement as a slight lean can affect the measurement dramatically. What is your bar height if you measure both grip heights?Aaaaand here it is. I have 20mm riser bar, and 888 chassi slammed down to minimum (580 a2c - which is still more than a boxxer) and my handlebar center is 40" above the ground. So Your bars are 2,5" higher...
EDIT:
How much sag are You running on dorado?
Actually I've made a mistake and I had measured it with non dh tires.
With 2.5" 26" minions DHF, ESI Extra Chunky (thickest ESI grips), 20mm riser bar, 45mm/15 deg. angle DM stem. :
Ground to the center of the grip - 41"
Groud to the top of the grip - 41.53"
I can't go lower due to bar/stantion interference.
If You want even plusher fork, You can assemble the top cap while the for is compressed (little underpressure inside).
With 2.5" 26" minions DHF, ESI Extra Chunky (thickest ESI grips), 20mm riser bar, 45mm/15 deg. angle DM stem. :
Ground to the center of the grip - 41"
Groud to the top of the grip - 41.53"
I can't go lower due to bar/stantion interference.
If You want even plusher fork, You can assemble the top cap while the for is compressed (little underpressure inside).
In that case I'm only about and inch higher on the bars(42.5"). I run a 55mm stem and currently trying out the gravity light bar (800mm wide), not sure the rise on it but I think it only comes in one size.
The test/review 951Evo that I rode (before I bought mine) which handled well had a 42" high bar...which is weird because I'm using almost identical equipment as that one?! LOL!
The test/review 951Evo that I rode (before I bought mine) which handled well had a 42" high bar...which is weird because I'm using almost identical equipment as that one?! LOL!