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Fox Float vs. Vanilla (36 in particular)

scottishmark

Turbo Monkey
May 20, 2002
2,121
22
Somewhere dark, cold & wet....
What's the Monkey's opinion on Fox air versus coil these days then?

Think I'm after a 160mm 36 but unsure if Vanilla or Float is the one to go for. Vanilla gives away nearly 0.5lbs but I would expect much better performance from it, is that a fair assumption? My feeling towards air forks (I've owned a 2008 Boxxer WC and currently have a 120mm Reba) is that they sit a long way into the travel when the going gets steep or under braking, has anyone really cracked this issue yet?

While we're at it, tapered versus 1 1/8th? Noticable difference?

Cheers,
Mark
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Yeah you can definitely feel the difference between a tapered and non......tapered is rad.


If you're looking NEW fox forks, their coils finally work the way they're supposed to (more like the damping in them finally works).

But you can't really generalize 'all air forks ride this way' because they're all different and chamber sizes and air volumes vary.

Fox makes good versions of both these days but their coils (finally) kick the crap out of the air forks. I'd go coil for sure. They's real smoove.
 
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scottishmark

Turbo Monkey
May 20, 2002
2,121
22
Somewhere dark, cold & wet....
Nice one, tapered it is in that case.

Sadly just 2nd hand as £750+ is a bit steep for me these days :( plenty of used options around (mostly TALAS though). The other thing I should've mentioned is that it'll be matched to a CCBD on the back, so I'd guess this'll show up the limits of the air even more. Anything I should look out for on 2010/2011 forks? Other than obvious stanchion wear and dead bladders?
 

Dwdrums00

Monkey
Mar 31, 2007
224
0
I prefer my 2012 van 160mm tapered fork to my previously owned 2011 Float 180mm 1-1/8" fork. To be honest I couldn't stand my float, it ramped extremely hard in the last 20% of it's travel and was impossible to get near bottom out (Fox has since redesigned the spring curve on their 2013 air forks to be more linear.) Unfortunately Fox discontinued the Van 160mm for 2013.

Epic: The 36 Van comes with a steel spring.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Definitely get the '11 or '12, plus Kashima if you can find and afford it. The updated damper on the '11 is worth it.

If you don't mind the weight I think the van/coil will be the way to go for you judging by what you asked. Air forks are always going to be more dependent on compression damping to hold them up mid-stroke and there will always be some loss in sensitivity. The coil will rely less on damping to stay up and move more easily off the top.
 

dilzy

Monkey
Sep 7, 2008
567
1
I run an 06' 36Vanr on my sx trail and apart from the bushing now wearing a nice pattern into the stantion (due to years of use, even if you service them regularly it happens), it's a damn good fork.

I remember Fox putting out an article when 1.5 was all the rage and they said their 1 1/8th were slightly heavier but just as stiff (my steerer is literally 1/2" thick at the base). I honestly can't see tapered being stiffer if the 11/8th is heavier. IMO it's a **** standard that just makes manufacturing more complicated.

Check out the X-fusion Vengeance HLR, the damper looks very nice and they seem to have a good rep.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Easton also issued a press release when 31.8 bars came out, insisting that 25.4 was better. Look at what they just brought out recently.

The advantage to a tapered or 1.5 steerer on a singlecrown fork is not only the increase in stiffness, but also the interface durability that will come with greater contact area between steerer and crown. Most long travel singlecrowns with 1 1/8 steerers seem to fall victim to dreaded creaking sooner or later, and while I hate new standards as much as the next guy, I think this particular genre of fork is a prime candidate.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
That's mostly because you haven't ridden the same model fork with each.

There's a difference. And the fork I've ridden both versions on are 36s.
Seconded.
can you guys elaborate? I see Udi mentions "interface durability" to avoid the dreaded creek, but that's not been a problem for me on my 2009 36 TALAS.

If ever I change forks before my bike, I was thinking of going with the 34 Float. But it only has a 15mm thru-axle. I've come to really like and expect the stiffness of the 20mm. I'm wondering in the tapered steer will make enough of a difference in stiffness to compensate for the smaller axle. I know full well that I can't fit a tapered steer in my current bike, so this would be a factor when choosing to upgrade components or the full bike. I also realize I'm mixing up a lot of different "kinds of stiffness" (stanchion size, steer tube size, and axle size) and that they all act on different planes, but I imagine they must affect each other too no?
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I also realize I'm mixing up a lot of different "kinds of stiffness" (stanchion size, steer tube size, and axle size) and that they all act on different planes, but I imagine they must affect each other too no?
Oh for sure. The difference in a tapered/vs 1/18" steerer is probably less than what you'd see in beefing up stanchions on the same fork. But a big steerer interface right where the fork loads hit the frame is something you can feel when getting on the brakes hard, man handling some turns and steering through really rough stuff. I wouldn't say it's night and day but it's definitely more solid. The bike I've had both on is a 4" slopestyle bike, so there were some sideways landings and some really high speed berm turns. And on 'real trails' a bike with 4" of travel is already getting knocked around a bit so feeling a bit of increase in steering precision maybe stood out a little more. The only reason I've had both is that I found a cheap tapered 36 so I bought it. Then I wanted to lower the front end with a flush headset cup so I got a steerer/crown/stancion assembly that was 1 1/8" and switched the guts and lowers. It just feels a little more floppy now.

All Udi is talking about is the fact that you have much more surface area on your headset across more or bigger bearings, and that the larger diameter tube is going to resist leverage on the fork a little more. The same loads spread across a bigger area getting greater dispersion kind of thing.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
That's not what I meant kidwoo, I was talking about the surface area of the steerer tube against the inside of the fork crown.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
I notice the difference in tapered/non tapered most in braking, followed by rock gardens, followed by high speed berms with hella yaw that you can get real deep in.

I think it makes a bigger difference in longer travel forks - the totem 1 1/8 v the tapered that I got to ride back to back were pretty remarkably different, and literally everybody could feel a big difference. The difference was less pronounced (to me) in the 2008 van 160rc2 vs the 2011 that I rode, but still noticeable enough that it felt like an solid improvement. Less deflection in rock gardens, and less pinging under hard braking.

And I actually notice it a fair amount in my giant trancex, although that one is hard for me to compare accurately, because I'm comparing it to older float120's with a QR and 1 1/8, and going from QR and 1 1/8 to 15mm/tapered, plus having one of the stiffer HT junctions on a trail bike out there means that a lot of things changed in the comparison, so I can't really be sure what made the biggest difference. I just know that my 32mm stantion float is plenty stiff with the tapered HT and 15mm axle, where I didn't used to think that 32mm floats were stiff enough.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Half right?
Either way I agree with all of the above.

I had a 1 1/8" Totem and like William42 touched on, braking is where it really fell behind. Even with its 40mm stanchions, compared to a 32mm Boxxer there was noticeable flex - not confidence inspiring at all. If I had to run a long travel singlecrown I'd definitely take a tapered or 1.5" if my frame allowed.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
I had a 1 1/8" Totem and like William42 touched on, braking is where it really fell behind. Even with its 40mm stanchions, compared to a 32mm Boxxer there was noticeable flex - not confidence inspiring at all. If I had to run a long travel singlecrown I'd definitely take a tapered or 1.5" if my frame allowed.
I actually couldn't feel a huge difference between 1.5 and tapered. back to back i'm not sure I'd be able to tell you which was which if you hid the stem.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
I meant either tapered or 1.5", if the frame allowed. I doubt there'd be much difference like you said.
 

dilzy

Monkey
Sep 7, 2008
567
1
The stiffness of the crown/steerer interface doesn't change. It's a shrink fit out of materials with the same Young's modulus. There is no relative movement unless the shrink fit fails. The diff in stiffness is probably due to the decreased bending after the crown (if there is a decrease).

Straight 1.5" seemed a better standard. The stems had more steerer area to grip and it was easy to manufacture steerers, headtubes and headsets.

I'd dearly like to see a load displacement graph for a Fox 36 tapered CSU vs non tapered 1.18th. I actually have a tapered CSU I was going to donate to the Eng department for use by the 3rd year eng students doing FEA. I can test the stiffness of it, anyone have the ability to do the same for a 1.18th, message me (or I'll try find an equivelent yr non-tapered (2012)).

PS, nope never ridden tapered, but based on Fox's release, I had a guess they weren't telling porkies. I mean they are f'ing thick.
 
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Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
The stiffness of the crown/steerer interface doesn't change. It's a shrink fit out of materials with the same Young's modulus. There is no relative movement unless the shrink fit fails. The diff in stiffness is probably due to the decreased bending after the crown (if there is a decrease).

Straight 1.5" seemed a better standard. The stems had more steerer area to grip and it was easy to manufacture steerers, headtubes and headsets.

I'd dearly like to see a load displacement graph for a Fox 36 tapered CSU vs non tapered 1.18th. I actually have a tapered CSU I was going to donate to the Eng department for use by the 3rd year eng students doing FEA. I can test the stiffness of it, anyone have the ability to do the same for a 1.18th, message me (or I'll try find an equivelent yr non-tapered (2012)).

PS, nope never ridden tapered, but based on Fox's release, I had a guess they weren't telling porkies. I mean they are f'ing thick.
At a given force, smaller area means more stress; more stress means more strain; strain is displacement; stiffness is force over displacement, therefore same force over more displacement = less stiffness.

Given the complexity involved in every other part of the bike, a tapered steerer is hardly a difficult piece to make! I think it's an efficient use of space really - smaller 2MoA where loads are lower, larger 2MoA where loads are higher. Makes sense.
 

dilzy

Monkey
Sep 7, 2008
567
1
At a given force, smaller area means more stress; more stress means more strain; strain is displacement; stiffness is force over displacement, therefore same force over more displacement = less stiffness.

Given the complexity involved in every other part of the bike, a tapered steerer is hardly a difficult piece to make! I think it's an efficient use of space really - smaller 2MoA where loads are lower, larger 2MoA where loads are higher. Makes sense.
I haven't made myself clear, I mean it's not an inherantly stiffer interface, it's still dependent on the flexural modulus of the whole crown steerer. It would certainly make a stiffer crown for a given weight, but a shrink fit transmits stress pretty well as a continuum.

Seriously not really important in a practicaly stiffness sense (tire, axle, lowers etc.)

It's not that big a deal compared with a whole bicycle, but I see no practical advantage over straight 1.5" (stem availability maaaaaybe).

Either way, Fox Van forks are great.