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Enduro vs Rune vs Yeti SB66 vs ?

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Hacktastic, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Hacktastic Active Member

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    I ride a 2010 Enduro Expert now. My only real gripe with the frame is the lack of shock options, due to the proprietary Specialized "Fvck You" Link. I'd like to be able to swap on a good coil shock or DH air shock occasionally. The Evo links from Specialized seem to be either unobtainable, or insanely expensive, and they only work with an RC2 for an Enduro apparently.

    I'm 6', a little long in the torso and wide in the shoulders, relatively. Running a 50mm stem I've often thought I could almost go for an XL Enduro frame (I ride a L now).

    Can anyone compare these 3 frames? Mostly interested in feedback on geo differences and durability. I can probably get the best pricing on the Banshee. Also interested in other suggestions for aggressive 6" frames.
    #1
  2. ZHendo New Member

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    I am 6'1 and a bit long in the torso as well, and while I ride a an L, I would suggest an XL Nomad Carbon. Mine is the first iteration of the Carbon, but nothing has really changed since the introduction. I have had the bike longer than any other that I have owned and have tinkered with parts quite a bit, and honestly I am thrilled with my existing setup of a Lyrik 170 up front and RC4 with the Push link out back.

    Some people may whine about bearing issues on SC frames sometimes, but I can assure you that those are concerns from a looooong time ago. SC has created possibly the best bearing system that I have ever seen, and I have not had to replace a single bearing despite riding the bike year round in PNW conditions since I got it in mid-late 2010. I take care of my bikes, but this things has seen a number of days running Garbo laps at Whistler without so much as a hiccup. The frame itself is rock solid and isn't showing any signs of significant wear whatsoever either.

    It is a very aggressive bike when ridden hard. The 170mm fork tipped the geo back just a tad, though at Whistler I sometimes wish it was 0.5-1 degree slacker. The Push link has been the big factor - I really didn't like the bike for anything but trail riding with the stock RP23. I immediately picked up a Push link and simply bolted a stock RC4 to it (no Push tuning) - the bike was an entirely new ride. I am getting my shock Push'd right now as it needed a rebuild, so I can only assume that the ride will get that much better.

    I can't say I have ridden the new Banshee, which I have heard is awesome, but I can give some geo comparisons to the Specialized. I personally think that Specialized's geometry suits me better as Santa Cruz tends to run short top tubes. The large Nomad has been a bit short at times, and I do often question whether an XL would be a better fit, but the short frame suits some of the steep and tight terrain that I ride so I haven't bothered to change. I personally feel that the Nomad puts you in a better pedaling position than the Enduro, and both bikes have an excellent "in-the-bike" feel.
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  3. Hacktastic Active Member

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    Excellent info. Thank you!
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  4. Hacktastic Active Member

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    Buying an extra link to be able to run anything besides the OEM shock is somewhat of a turn off for me though. I'm already in that boat, and that's the driving reason for me to change.

    What stem length do you run on your L? What's the head angle with a 170mm fork?
    #4
  5. toowacky Member

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    FWIW, here are some thoughts from a buddy who thoroughly flogs his bikes, was on a v1 and v1.5 Rune, then SB-66, now a v2 Rune. In general, his impressions were SB66 is more "trail" and Rune v2 is the "burly do-everything" rig. He's a bit shorter than you, but this might be of interest, pulled up some comments from some emails when he was deciding on sizing:

    "I test rode two Rune V2's (medium and large) yesterday just around the house while on home-arrest by wife for general sizing and feel tests. Both bikes rode great with nice, smooth, yet highly effecient pedalling suspension and frame looks to be quite well built and stout where it needs to be, but doesn't feel like a tank at all (Kevin's large V2 with coil 170 fork, dropper post, XT parts was only 31.4 lbs, whereas my SB66 is 32.8 lbs w/out dropper post and air fork). I am still a bit baffled on sizing as the large V2 is a good inch longer (wheelbase, reach) than my SB66 and large V1 Rune was. Whereas the medium V2 Rune is the same length (wheelbase, reach), but 1 inch shorter in height and 1" shorter top tube with me having to run 11.5-12" (crazy tall) of exposed seatpost in optimal climb position for enought leg extension without straining the back. With post down in preferred descent position, size medium felt pretty darn good. So a bit baffled in sizing still as I kind of need large sizing for most comfort while climbing and medium for preferred sizing while descending. Tough call as I typically spend about 2/3-3/4 of my time climbing, but I live for the descents and want the bike the be most ideal in fit and feel for that. Any suggestions , or still go large? I am only 5'10" now (was 5'11" due degenerating low back discs), but am fairly short waisted with longer legs and why I prefer running pretty short stems (<50mm) on most bikes that aren't way too small."
    #5
  6. Zark Hey little girl, do you want some candy?

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    Are you thinking frame only or complete? 26"? Assuming that here are my suggestions/ideas. My 2010 enduro has been the best mountain bike I've had, tough shoes to fill. The rune looks like a great option, but I don't have much experience with them.
    Transition Covert.
    Intense tracer 2 or uzzi if you want 170mm.
    Santa Cruz Nomad.
    Cove G Spot. :)
    #6
  7. Zark Hey little girl, do you want some candy?

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    Are you thinking frame only or complete? 26"? Assuming that here are my suggestions/ideas. My 2010 enduro has been the best mountain bike I've had, tough shoes to fill. The rune looks like a great option, but I don't have much experience with them.
    Transition Covert.
    Intense tracer 2 or uzzi if you want 170mm.
    Santa Cruz Nomad.
    Cove G Spot. :)
    #7
  8. the law New Member

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    You may want to think about the Ibis Mojo HDR or the SC Bronson. I love my Ibis and think it is one of the best bikes out there -- at least for me. The SC Bronson also has got some great feedback from people I know. However, different bikes suit different people so you got to take people's advice with a grain of salt. Go out and do some test rides.
    #8
  9. canadmos Well-Known Member

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    That's crazy, my Spitfire is probably 36 pounds. One thing to note about the Banshee's, the entire drop outs on both sides come off, so you can put whatever sized wheel and axle you want on there. Super easy to change too. I'm sure the Spitfire and Rune are pretty similar, besides the suspension travel and I rode mine down Bromont with no major issues. The thing just goes and goes...
    #9
  10. Hacktastic Active Member

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    I'm thinking frame only. Frameset only would be preferred actually. I'm running an X-Fusion Vengeance HLR DLA fork which I love. Ideally I'd have an O2 RCX rear shock and a Vector Air to swap back and forth, or maybe just a Vector Air.

    Like I said, I REALLY like this Enduro frame. I have no complaints about the suspension or handling or whatever. The only thing wrong with it is the stupid link, which is a pretty big dickslap from Specialized, especially for a bike whose entire platform is versatility.

    Also looking to stick out the 26" thing for as long as I possibly can. Having a frame that could accept either would make this seemingly inevitable transition easier though.

    I thought about the Ibis too. Aren't those sort of steep in the head angle? At some point I MAY sell my downhill bike (Banshee Legend), so a 6" bike that I can rally like a DH bike is somewhat of a priority. Which is why I like the Enduro so much.
    #10
  11. ritche Member

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    vs. dabomb cherry bomb 6 (26)

    any reviews? (labeled as FR), is it good for enduro?
    It's cheap for a brand new frame set, with a X-fusion shock,
    67 deg HA, nomad look alike.

    I might get one this X'mas.

    http://www.dabombbike.com/cherry_bomb6.html
    #11
  12. Steve M Active Member

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    I currently own an SB66 Carbon and came off an Enduro. The 66 is very similar in terms of geometry with the key exception of having quite a slack seat tube angle (not great for steep technical climbs, which is all we really have here in Whistler) and relies on having a travel adjust fork to keep the front wheel down. The 66 pedals more efficiently and is a lot more playful, but that playfulness comes from the linearity of the suspension and also means it doesn't have the same small bump compliance the Enduro has. The head angle is also very slightly steeper (with a 160mm 36 on both), but the difference there is so minor that I wouldn't say it's worth considering (and I'm a sucker for slack angles). The build quality of the 66 makes the Enduro (a very well-built bike) look relatively poor - even after 6 months of hard riding my frame doesn't creak at all, which I'm very impressed with. All told, I can't really find any serious fault with the Yeti unless you spend an awful lot of time in your 24-36 whilst still hammering away on the shifter hoping a lower gear will miraculously appear (which I do), and for some reason don't spring for a travel adjust fork after dropping $bazillions on the rest of the bike. If they'd just steepen the seat angle (and move the front derailleur mount forward a bit so it didn't rub in the big/big combinations so easily) it'd be pretty well flawless. For someone my size (220lbs right now) to have ridden it this long, in this place, without breaking it also says a lot for the construction. I think that overall, it's the most impressive bike Yeti has ever produced.
    #12
  13. stoney Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde

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    This. At 6', you should be looking at a large. As for the limited "burly, all-mountain" ability, I disagree. I ride that as a downhill bike, and with some limitations (HA and travel), it has done pretty damn well. I'm not nice on bikes and the SB is confidently stable running a 160mm 36.
    #13
  14. profro Active Member

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    I have a 2010 Carbon Enduro and now have a SB66.

    I never jived with the Enduro and found it to be a terrible peddler. Something about it zapped my confidence to dive into technical sections and corner confidently. Not sure if it was my years of riding a different style of bike or if it was indeed the Enduro.

    After breaking the carbon Enduro I grabbed a SB66 and I immediately realized it was the Enduro and not so much me. I know a lot of people ride Enduros and absolutely rip on them. But something about it and me didn't jive. Once I got on the SB66 I was elated to remember what it felt like to dive into nasty technical sections and not grab a handful of brake. The long top tube and suspension platform work great for me. While its not the most plush bike out there it can handle some aggression. While the geo is great for DH, I am impressed with how well it pedals. Its very efficient. I am heading to Snowshoe with mine next weekend for some lift assisted riding. My only current complaint is that the Fox CTD gets a little over whelmed by repeated big hits. It could use some more high speed compression.
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  15. Jm_ Active Member

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    Can't you slap a CCDB in the enduro?
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  16. kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Uh oh. Gettin old :D


    Yeah those Ibii are pretty steep. Offset headsets fit though. You should definitely ride one before buying. They're pretty plow bike feeling (more than the enduros).

    That said, they (and many many many other frames) pedal way better than those enduros.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
    #16
  17. profro Active Member

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    I did. "Slap" is not the word I would use. I had some help from Cane Creek R&D.
    #17
  18. Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    I agree with you especially if you are running the stock fox ctd shock. But putting a CCDB air on the 66 is about the best upgrade that I have ever done to any bike. It is worlds better on small bump compliance and
    is way more progressive than the fox shock as well at the end of the travel. The 66 was already my favorite bike ever even with the stock shock. Now I pet it everyday and talk to it in Gollum's voice.
    #18
  19. Hacktastic Active Member

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    Let's be honest. Downhillers with their roost guards on basically look like dirt bikers who got DUI's.

    It's just way easier and way cheaper to get tons of saddle time on the moto ripping corners non-stop. Anytime I try to put in a full day on the DH bike I just feel robbed of seat time in comparison. The 6" bike I can ride similarly to the DH bike on 90% of terrain and it's mostly there for exercise.

    I want to keep my Legend because it's really damn nice and would be good for a BC trip next summer, but if I get the right price for it I'll let it go.
    #19
  20. jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    "Slap" is the word I would use to describe what needs to be done to specialized.
    #20
  21. Da Peach Outwitted by a rodent

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    I hear ya.

    I'm nowhere near as good a rider as about 99% of the folks who have chimed in, but I have an SB66C and love it. No basis for comparison there, but there you have it.

    JerR wins races on his
    Stoney lawndarts on his
    I toddle along and look cool on mine
    #21
  22. frorider Member

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    Some random thoughts:

    Enduro => Have ridden several pre-2013 versions, didn't like the reliance on LSC to make them pedal decently; but haven't yet ridden the 2013 which was thoroughly revamped to address the numerous 'sucks on climbs' comments.

    Mojo HD => Have ridden them quite a bit but don't own one. Climb and pedal great; could never get it to feel super plush w/ air shocks. COnsidered buying one and slackerizing the HA by a degree...but got a Bronson C.

    SB66 => One of my regular riding buddies got the Alu (142X12) one last year; upper link broke, and that der hanger design is plain stupid & has given him a lot of problems. I'm a bit disappointed in Yeti -- plenty of brands (SC, Norco, etc) have figured out a way to have a stiff der hanger for good shifting yet still protect the derailleur...

    Rune => It's heavy enough that (in my case) I'd rather ride my Truax/Totem. A carbonz Rune would be interesting

    Bronson C => If you're going for a light, air-sprung bike that climbs and descends well, this frame manages to combine the things I like about the Mojo HD while addressing the shortcomings of that bike. I haven't decided whether to get CCDB air or Float X for my Bronson, but even w/ the 2014 float ctd it's riding pretty well.

    Pivot Mach 6 => Looks very promising and has been getting good reviews. I haven't ridden one.
    #22
  23. ZHendo New Member

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    You don't have to buy the link to run anything besides the OEM shock, sorry I wasn't more clear. The stock link is tuned around an air shock, so while many people have had great success running the new Float X, Monarch Plus, CCDBA, etc, the linear nature of coil shocks does not play well with the stock link. The RP23 rode fairly well in most scenarios, but it was easily overwhelmed on repeated large jumps and hits. The purpose of the Push link is to be a coil-specific shock that switches up the leverage curve to suit coils, and I am 100% sold on the concept.

    As for stem length, I run a 50mm stem. I had a 70mm when I first bought the bike, but I have always ridden 50mm stems on my other bikes so I just couldn't quite get used to the 70. The head angle is a bit over 66.5* with the 170mm fork which is perfect in every scenario except super high speed runs at Whistler. Keep in mind, I ride this bike on all of the upper and lower mountain trails at Whistler, and I only wish it was longer/slacker on a handful of runs.
    #23
  24. Hacktastic Active Member

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    Now that's interesting info. I actually feel like the seat angle on the Enduro could afford to be steeper so the angle between my back and legs isn't so acute. That was another feature that caught my eye about the Banshee. Slack HA/steeper SA.

    So what sort of sag do you run on the SB66 compared to the Enduro? And what shock? I run around 40% on my Enduro. I'm not really riding any jumpy/park stuff with this bike. Almost all the riding is scraggly mountain singletrack with lots of loose little stuff where traction and fighting deflection is more important. Very little in the way of bigger hits.
    #24
  25. dan-o Well-Known Member

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    My experiences mirror zhendos except I run a DB-air on mine (stock link, 170 lyrik solo air dh, 50mm stem) and the bike rips.

    The performance with the RP23 almost had me selling the frame in disgust but the DB-a transformed it entirely (and killed plans for the push link/coil fix).

    6'4, XL sub 30#with solid build.
    #25
  26. frorider Member

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    Just sold my 2009 Nomad frame, had a few different shocks on there but not the CCDB Air. Once I got the right air shock on there (custom monarch with LSC/HSC and no platform bull****) it was an outstanding descender. The stock shock setup sucked by comparison.
    #26
  27. SylentK Member

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    Have you looked at a Turner 5Spot or 27.5 Burner?

    You have already considered the Ibis and Pivot. All DW. All the time. The first time I rode one I thought I was on a more efficient, shorter travel Sunday. It rails. Currently I'm running a CCDBA and new Pike. It is mighty sweet.

    5Spot_Tomichi_Sm.JPG
    #27
  28. kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You know downhillers that wear roost guards in 2013?


    Man, socal is weird. :D
    #28
  29. Hacktastic Active Member

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    Oh yeah, bro. Hella downhillers, bro.
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  30. MDJ Member

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    So why don't you buy a 2014 Enduro frame with the DBair shock? Not sure why you would want to put any other shock on it besides that one.
    #30
  31. Hacktastic Active Member

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    Well, reliability and serviceability for starters.

    I've been through a bunch of their coil shocks over the last few years. They all had reliability problems of various kinds, and there was no easy way to rebuild them. Pretty soured on their shocks by this point.

    I don't know if this holds at all true for the CCDB Air or not, but I found them basically impossible to tune the compression for any good g-out performance and compliance over chop.
    #31
  32. wood booger Member

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    Specy Enduro rider for many years. Agree they have good geo and work great when bearings aren't seized or creaking. A little soggy when pedaling hard.

    That being said, I rode my co-workers SB66 carbon and was blown away! It is basically a super robust Enduro that accelerates like a hardtail (compared to Enduro). I was stoked. Got one on order.

    The simple design, good geo, excellent pedaling, burly frame/rear end stiffness, and lack of pinner bearings that go bad after 2 months is what sold me. Long top tube/short stem is what I do already, so just ordered a small again instead of a medium Enduro.

    I almost couldn't get over not having a bottle in the front triangle, no way in hell it's going under the DT. Going pack or fanny pack (gasp) :eek: route with this bike.
    #32
  33. Steve M Active Member

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    Comparing my personal setups is pretty pointless, because my shock(s) aren't stock. One Float runs 24% sag, the other runs 31% on the Yeti, I always ran 27-29% on the Enduro (also with a Float, measured at the shock, so slightly more than that at the wheel, but much stiffer compression valving than stock). If you're after something with excellent traction on small chatter, the SB66 isn't it - the Enduro definitely wins in that regard (irrespective of what shock you run in there - I have something a lot better than a CCDBA in mine). The SB66 ride characteristic when not pedalling is a lot like a singlepivot - playful, extremely easy to pop over stuff, and able to be smashed into corners hard, but it doesn't have the same plowability of the Enduro. It's more nimble but less planted, and it isn't as forgiving. I'd describe it as more racey and less of a downhill bike with two chainrings.

    Also be aware that the intended fork for the 66 is a 150mm Fox 34, which is a 528mm A-C length. Running a 160mm 36 on it (as I do, though sometimes I drop it to 150) without a travel adjust means you're running a constant 545mm A-C length. That difference is pretty substantial, and I would highly recommend to anyone considering one, that you get a travel-adjust fork with it, because the relatively slack seat tube angle makes climbing steep stuff quite hard otherwise.
    #33
  34. Dogboy Active Member

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    There's no shortage of folks singing the (much deserved) praises for the SB66, but it IS deserved. I'm on a carbon one now and an alloy one previously. I tend to flip bikes on the regular but there's really nothing out there now that I'd trade for my SB. Near perfect geo ( the SA could be a hair steeper) and amazing composure that pedals better than any Specialized could ever hope for. The long TT/short stem combo works and it would be hard to ride anything that didn't offer a similar cockpit setup. As great as the Nomad is, the reach on that bike is miserable. I'd have to ride an XL to have a comparable setup to the Yeti and that's pretty crazy considering I'm 5'9". The Nomad is way overdue for a revamp. But I can't recommend the Yeti enough. I'm still on the stock Fox shock and considering a Float X or CCDB Air for next season.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
    #34
  35. Jm_ Active Member

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    I didn't get the Enduro 29er because it pedaled the best uphill, I got it because of the geometry. Uphill it's not too bad, but you definitely realize it's an FSR and it does suck energy when you turn it uphill. It actually pedals exactly like I thought it would. On flat ground you don't really get the squat like you do on the climbs. Using the granny gear helps if you have one, as it drops the chain down lower, which improves the pedaling characteristics. Uphill, a guy with the exact same fitness on a much more efficient bike will be faster, but that's rarely the case because all things are usually not equal. It climbs much better than a 26er IMO (hell, won a race last weekend) and it's simply a world better than my old turner RFX. It does everything better, but climbing is especially better, as the RFX with 170mm of travel was simply ridiculous to climb without a travel adjustment for the front. A travel adjustment would be nice on the Enduro, but it's nowhere near as critical. Just serviced the pike bath-oil and I'm going to do a DH race on it tomorrow.

    Whipping back and forth on the trail or from berm to berm you forget you're riding a 29er. You also don't fight the bike on the steep chutes or jumps or anything, which is the way I like to descend. I've been on full on DH bikes that I was "fighting" down because of something not working correctly. It jumps well and no qualms about hitting the bigger jumps at the ski resort.

    BMC has that new mini-link 29er with 17.1" stays and about 6" of travel. It looks interesting for sure. We'll see more of these 29ers soon with "normal" geometry instead of whack 18" stays as 1x drivetrains take hold, but they may only ever get to equally share the market with 27.5. I'm just not interested in 27.5, but I have been waiting years for someone to come out with a 29er with 6" of travel and normal geometry (for the genre it's intended for).
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
    #35
  36. Hacktastic Active Member

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    Right. I'm basically looking for something that's more of a DH bike that I can take on super long uphill rides. I understand that comes with a certain amount of compromise, so I'm pretty satisfied with that part of the versatility of the Enduro. It just annoys the living daylights out of me that they decided to pigeonhole this frame with one sub-par shock, even though the whole platform is about versatility.

    If a new frame happens to pedal better and be lighter, great. A reasonable goal would be for it to pedal AS well and be AS light as what I have now, still have it descend the rough stuff with the same or better ease (in some part due to a more serious shock on it). I suppose I should weigh mine just to have a target since I have no clue what the thing weighs. The way I have it set up now is:

    Size L aluminum frame
    X Fusion O2 RCX shock, custom fit for the Enduro frame
    X Fusion Vengeance HLR DLA 170mm
    Hone cranks
    647 pedals
    10spd 1x10 setup (34t ring, 11-36 cassette)
    XT clutch rear derailleur
    XT cassette
    SLX brakes
    Answer bars
    Thompson 50mm stem
    Specialized "rape-you-to-death" dropper post
    WTB seat
    Whatever the stock DT wheels are with a swapped steel freehub body
    2.35 Highroller LUST tires run ghetto tubeless (Gorilla tape)

    So, whatever that weighs. I don't have any qualms with the weight on it, but I know it's not the lightest thing out there, nor was it ever trying to be.

    Any hints what you're rocking that you consider to be substantially better than the CCDB Air?
    #36
  37. sbabuser Member

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    Look around for an Enduro version of a Pushed Monarch +. I have no complaints about how my '12 Enduro comp climbs with it (I do use the higher compression setting - RS's version of the climb setting on CTD). Given the choice though, if I could find a bike w/ similar geometry and DW link, I'd go DW link. I don't think DW link can be done with short chainstays like the Enduro's though, and that's a big part of what makes the bike so fun to throw around on descents.
    I'd like to try the new Enduro, too, but short of going to carbon for lighter weight, I can't really find any good reasons to switch bikes right now.
    #37
  38. Hacktastic Active Member

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    Actually, I notice the TINIEST bit of imbalance from the shorter chainstays and the larger-than-normal fork going through fast berms. It just needs a tad more work to maintain traction to the front as the bike settles (run substantial sag/heavy damping at both ends), otherwise it can get a tendancy to climb up berms. It's nothing worth really complaining about, but just remembered it while reading that about shorter chainstays.

    I did notice the bike cornered VERY well with the stock 160mm Lyrik, even though the thing had so much drag it wouldn't ever settle into a corner. Closer inspection reveals a big difference in the offset of each fork (less total offset on the RockShox), similar to the DH fork lines. Explains why those front ends love to cut inside lines - not the weight.
    #38
  39. Jm_ Active Member

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    It can, and although it's not exactly the same, BMC has done it with 17.1" stays, close enough that I'd consider it in the "normal" range for sure. A true DW may take a little longer, but I have no doubt it will come. 1x11 drivetrains make front derailleurs obsolete, which frees up the area for linkages.
    #39
  40. tacubaya Member

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    I wouldn't go for an O2 RLX, the O2 line lacks air can dimple (no autoequalizing).
    #40