[djjohnr]

I'm really considering selling my AM bike and DH bike and getting one of these. I only ride my DH bike once a year on my annual bike trip now that I have kids, and on those trips I'm usually torn between taking one bike or the other. I ride by myself during the week so I don't need to keep up on the climbs with anyone, and all the riding I do is fireroad climbs to straight down trails - no rolling stuff. My main concern is using this as a replacement for the DH bike. I don't race, and while I'm not slow I'm no pro. I'm generally alternating between Northstar/Mammoth and Whistler. Fav trails at each - Boondocks, Chainsmoke and Schleyer. Any feedback on the EVO as a DH bike replacement?

 

[HAB]

http://ridegg.com/megatrail-preorder

 

[wydopen]

http://ridegg.com/megatrail-preorder

HAB beat me too it..

I'd wager the megatrail is a better descender than the enduro evo and you arnt making any compromises on the climbs...

 

[dump]

http://ridegg.com/megatrail-preorder

Ditto. mount up.

 

[jackalope]

Might as well pile on

 

[kidwoo]

There is nothing

nothing

nothing

besides a dh bike that is as cool as a dh bike in the terrain that warrants it


Thinking otherwise is just a sign that your soul is dead inside



Keep the dh bike and just buy a better trail bike anyway. Woot woot!

 

[jackalope]

I knew it...despite his professed bromance with jeebs, he's a soulless robot

 

[kidwoo]

I said 'terrain that warrants it'

 

[jackalope]

Yep, like Fontana

Totally with you though, so much so, I like riding my DH bike on pretty much anything that doesn't require much pedaling.

 

[kidwoo]

I said terrain that warrants it!

 

[Sandwich]

I'm with kidwool, there's no replacement for (shock) displacement, and an enduro bike isn't a DH bike. I'd rather ride a lighter trail bike 95% of the time, and then rent the one or two times I get to shuttle/lift days. I don't know about you, but I didn't realize what a hurt a day of lift riding puts on a bike, far more than just trail riding, until I did it to my enderpo. That's something to consider when you decide what bike is right for you.

That being said, I think the enduro platform is pretty capable, and it does a good job on some lift trails, but it gets bogged down in the really rough stuff simply because it doesn't have the travel that real DH bikes do. I don't have a lot of time on it on a lift hill, but I bought it for a lot of the same reasons you're talking about. The coil shock might fix a lot of this, and aaron certainly proved the evo's capabilities...not sure if that helps but if the latest crop of awesome 29er shorter travel bikes (I know, roll eyes dot jay peg) were out now, I'd buy one of them and a $500 DH bike just to beat the crap out of it.

 

[jonKranked]

Ithere's no replacement for shock displacement

i like it!

 

[djjohnr]

HAB beat me too it..

I'd wager the megatrail is a better descender than the enduro evo and you arnt making any compromises on the climbs...

I don't want to replace my DH bike with a 6" AM/Enduro bike. I don't care how awesome sauce the geometry is.

There is nothing

nothing

nothing

besides a dh bike that is as cool as a dh bike in the terrain that warrants it

This is true.

However, looking at the travel and geo of the 2015 Evo I think it would be pretty close. I'd basically loose an inch of travel and possibly gain better geometry then my current DH bike (09 Yeti 303 RDH). The head angle is close to the same (.5 degrees steeper) and both the reach and wheelbase are longer. I could throw a 26" wheel on the back and slacken it out more for resort days. It may not stand up to as much long term abuse, but I only ride resorts once a year anyways.

To make sure we're all talking about the same bike:

I'd have a different build, but the frame and geo would be the same.

HA 64.5
BB 352mm
Reach 430mm
WB 1182mm

 

[wood booger]

I don't care what Jesus or SBC marketing says about it, but putting a coil on a frame designed for an air shock just does not work out very well.
Ohlins magic may help, but it is still a compromise in many ways.

Don't sell two bikes for one that is not as good as either!

 

[djjohnr]

I don't care what Jesus or SBC marketing says about it, but putting a coil on a frame designed for an air shock just does not work out very well.
Ohlins magic may help, but it is still a compromise in many ways.

I've heard of no suspension rate complaints from anyone I know that's owned an SX Trail, and I haven't seen any complaints about it with the EVO.

Don't sell two bikes for one that is not as good as either!

It may not be the best AM bike or DH bike, but it appears to be the best FR bike around right now (ie pedal-able DH bike). Some people still want them.

 

[blindboxx2334]

http://ridegg.com/megatrail-preorder

295, such an odd number for a deposit.

 

[jackalope]

I don't want to replace my DH bike with a 6" AM/Enduro bike. I don't care how awesome sauce the geometry is.


However, looking at the travel and geo of the 2015 Evo I think it would be pretty close. I'd basically loose an inch of travel and possibly gain better geometry then my current DH bike (09 Yeti RDH). The head angle is close to the same (.5 degrees steeper) and both the reach and wheelbase are longer. I could throw a 26" wheel on the back and slacken it out more for resort days. It may not stand up to as much long term abuse, but I only ride resorts once a year anyways.

To make sure we're all talking about the same bike:

I'd have a different build, but the frame and geo would be the same.

HA 64.5
BB 352mm
Reach 430mm
WB 1182mm

The only thing I will add is that sometimes we can get too caught up with empirical travel as compared to quality of travel, to say nothing of nuanced geometry differences. In short, a 7" bike will crush the gnar better than a 6" bike because moar is bestest. To stay with the Megatrail example, in "gravity mode" you'd have a bike that is admittedly 1* steeper at 65.5*, but also significantly lower at 12.7" (versus 13.8" with the PMB Edition EVO, which even with a little more sag, still won't be as low). Plus, the Megatrail's leverage curve and kinematics in gravity mode are essentially what you'd expect to see for a straight up DH bike. Although its quite possible the PMB EVO's kinematics may be very similar to the Demo's (for better or worse), in which case you'd definitely be giving up something on climbing/flat road pedaling - and even if you're not racing anybody else to the top, still would kinda suck after awhile IMO. While obviously not having any ride time on the PMB EVO, I'd be surprised if it had any measurable performance advantage in terms of descending compared to the Megatrail.

Here's the reach, stack, ST, and CS measurements for the Mega for comparison

Small:
Reach: 16.8"
Stack: 24.2"
ST length: 16.5"

Medium:
Reach: 17.8"
Stack: 24.2"
ST length: 18"

Large:
Reach: 18.8"
Stack: 25.1"
ST Length: 19.5"

CS, 26": 16.8"; CS, 27.5: 17.3"

<DISCLAIMER - I swear I'm not paid by or associated with GG in any way (for a variety of really good reasons), but they really did make a kick ass bike in the Megatrail>

 

[kidwoo]

(09 Yeti RDH).

Oh god.

Yeah you should get that enduro!

 

[djjohnr]

The only thing I will add is that sometimes we can get too caught up with empirical travel as compared to quality of travel, to say nothing of nuanced geometry differences. In short, a 7" bike will crush the gnar better than a 6" bike because moar is bestest. To stay with the Megatrail example, in "gravity mode" you'd have a bike that is admittedly 1* steeper at 65.5*, but also significantly lower at 12.7" (versus 13.8" with the PMB Edition EVO, which even with a little more sag, still won't be as low). Plus, the Megatrail's leverage curve and kinematics in gravity mode are essentially what you'd expect to see for a straight up DH bike. Although its quite possible the PMB EVO's kinematics may be very similar to the Demo's (for better or worse), in which case you'd definitely be giving up something on climbing/flat road pedaling - and even if you're not racing anybody else to the top, still would kinda suck after awhile IMO. While obviously not having any ride time on the PMB EVO, I'd be surprised if it had any measurable performance advantage in terms of descending compared to the Megatrail.

Even if the ridemonkey jizz covered suspension kinematics of the MegaGnarTrail were so amazing that they muted running over unicorn skulls just as well as the EVO, the fork it runs has an inch less travel, and the head angle would be 1 degree steeper, more like 1.5-2 degrees steeper once I throw a 26 on the back of the EVO. 13.85" is fine with me, my current DH bike has the same bb height and it has a shorter wheelbase.

I agree that geometry and suspension design play an important part in how a bike performs in the rough, and that travel isn't necessarily everything. However, for a 160mm rear suspension to soak up bumps as well or better then a 180mm design, the former needs to be amazing (possible) and latter needs to suck. I haven't ridden an EVO, but I haven't seen any complaints that the rear end doesn't soak up bumps, and I have enough saddle time with SX Trails to know that they soaked up the rough quite nicely.

 

[kidwoo]

I've got a friend who's old guy retired pro dh'er (like real pro level riding, not a begger) who's been riding one of those since they came out. He doesn't ride slow. Like ever.

He just massages his hands more often than when he had a dh bike when following me. He fuggin pins it on that thing though. Dh terrain™ and all.

I'll think you'll be happy getting one. Get one of the older 26" ones though

 

[jackalope]

Even if the ridemonkey jizz covered suspension kinematics of the MegaGnarTrail were so amazing that they muted running over unicorn skulls just as well as the EVO, the fork it runs has an inch less travel, and the head angle would be 1 degree steeper, more like 1.5-2 degrees steeper once I throw a 26 on the back of the EVO. 13.85" is fine with me, my current DH bike has the same bb height and it has a shorter wheelbase.

I agree that geometry and suspension design play an important part in how a bike performs in the rough, and that travel isn't necessarily everything. However, for a 160mm rear suspension to soak up bumps as well or better then a 180mm design, the former needs to be amazing (possible) and latter needs to suck. I haven't ridden an EVO, but I haven't seen any complaints that the rear end doesn't soak up bumps, and I have enough saddle time with SX Trails to know that they soaked up the rough quite nicely.

Good point about the fork, especially if you're running a 20mm boxxer versus a 160mm pike. Plus, if you're going to run a 26 in the back, that would also lower the BB a bit. I guess if you're looking for a dh-ish bike you can sort of pedal, maybe the PMB EVO is the best option. I presume the ST angle isn't too slack, as pedaling something with a super slack ST more than 100' sucks worse than the Oakland Raiders.

 

[weedkilla]

.......and I have enough saddle time with SX Trails to know that they soaked up the rough quite nicely.

It's going to suck on the sucky bits virtually as much as an sx trail, and be better on the good bits.

These bikes have limited appeal because of how little the 6" travel am bikes give up to a trail bike or a Dh bike. The next step bigger is a lot worse trail bike, a bit better downhiller but still not a Dh bike.

That set of compromises either works for you, or it doesn't. If you've had an sx trail, I'd say you already know.

 

[jimw]

I've got a friend who's old guy retired pro dh'er (like real pro level riding, not a begger) who's been riding one of those since they came out. He doesn't ride slow. Like ever.

Yeah man, I rip pretty hard on that thing huh. [*]

[*] I'm not really an ex-pro who hangs with kidwoo, I just wish I was. I did get a shuttle from him once though, so I figure that gives me some RM cred right??

But seriously. To all the folks who has replied to this thread with reasons why the OP shouldn't do this, or said that he really wants the MegaJizz(tm) because it's Moar Better, etc... have any of you actually ridden an Enduro Evo?

I've been riding one for the past year and a half, and I have to say, for this particular niche... this bike kicks serious ass.

djjohnr, I was in exactly the same position as you were a couple years ago. I had an older Enduro and Demo, and was looking for something that might be able to replace them both. I ended up getting the 2012 Expert Evo, and it was almost but not quite what I wanted. I ended up having a bunch of issues with head tube creaking, and Specialized actually warrantied it with a 2013 Expert Evo. And THAT bike has been exactly what I wanted. It pedals better than my old Enduro, and is more fun on the descent than my old Demo. It can take a beating, the coil suspension feels great, and it's low maintenance.

This is typical terrain that this bike loves:







The thing is, with this bike you could be in the middle of a 20 mile trail ride when you hit that stuff, and the bike will do great at getting you there, AND handling the gnar.

If you liked your SX Trail, you will love this bike. It will be better on the up AND the down.

To relate to one of the trails you mentioned, Boondocks is one my favorite trails at N* too... and I have way more fun on this bike on that trail than I did on my Demo.

I'm with kidwoo though, you should look at the '13 or '14 26" models... at least as a guide for a more all-around bike build. The '15 model took all the Enduro(tm) out of it. I don't think that one is going to be much fun to pedal. Since you say you go to the bike park once a year, and the main use is going to be pedaling your local trails... even if they are just fire road up and straight down, you might be interested in a couple things I did with mine to make it behave better as a trail bike. I routinely take mine on 20+ mile trail rides around here with a lot of up and down.

I have 2 wheel sets. The wheels that the bike is spec'd with are pretty heavy. I've actually been using the old Traverse wheels from the 2012 Evo I had, for about 90% of the time. I only switch them out for bike park use, and even then I've used the lighter wheels there sometimes. Those things can take a surprising amount of abuse, and between the wheels themselves and the tires, that saves a good 2+ lbs off the weight, which makes a huge difference in the day in/day out climbing. Also, when traveling, it's a lot easier to pack a second wheelset than a second bike.

Mine has a CCDB. Love that shock. The Ohlins may be better for DH, but I like the adjustability of the CCDB, and the most awesome thing is this little LSC switch that this guy designed on shapeways.com:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/905260/lockout-lever-for-cane-creek-db-air-db-coil.html?materialId=23

I think that one was originally designed for the DBAir, and the knobs are slightly different on my DBCoil, so I had to get out the Dremel to get it to work, but after some tweaking that thing is a godsend. You can spin it all the way around, so it's easy to adjust multiple turns of LSC on the fly while riding. One turn is 6 clicks. I typically have it set to 12 clicks out from all the way in for descending. So, if I'm on rolling singletrack, I'll dial it in one turn; if I'm on fire road or pavement, dial it in another turn. Super easy and makes a huge difference. Oh, and you don't have to buy a new shock like you would if Cane Creek ever decides to put the CS on the DBCoil. Here's a closeup:



Here's a shot of the full bike this weekend just before taking it out on a 25 mile trail ride.



I love this thing! You should get one.

 

[HardtailHack]

What about a Liteville, 190mm, fairly light, 5yr warranty, adjustable shock position, optional shorter travel shock plates, optional +/-1.5deg HS.

 

[djjohnr]

Thanks a bunch for the review Jimw! Lot's of good info there. My Yeti is up on craigslist now; as soon as it sells I'm pulling the trigger.

Hardtail Hack - it's tough getting good info on the Liteville, I'm not sure what to think of it based on what I've found. IE - getting geometry numbers with a 180mm fork. Doesn't appear to be coil shock friendly, and I don't like any of the air shock options they offer it with. Plus there's no track record of how it would handle for DH duty. Syntace needs to do a better job of marketing it over here.

 

[djjohnr]

Bike and parts ordered, now the waiting begins. I'm getting the 2015 650b base model then swapping just about everything out for a full custom build (suspension, brakes, wheels, dropper post). I picked up a Dorado 650b and plan to experiment with fork travel/wheel size for DH mode. I think I can run the Dorado at 203mm with a front 27.5 wheel and a 26" rear; it should net out even on the BB height, but it may wind up too slack ~62.5-63. I'll also try 26" wheels front and rear that should theoretically give me a ~13.45" bb with the fork at 203mm. If all else fails I'll just run the Dorado at 180mm w/ 27.5" wheels front and rear for stock geometry. I'll probably swap to a Float 36 for trail ride days if climbing with the Dorado sucks.

 

[Sandwich]

it may wind up too slack ~62.5-63.

this is ridemonkey, doesn't exist.

I'll also try 26" wheels front and rear

kidwoo just added you to their friends list

 

[kidwoo]

this is ridemonkey, doesn't exist.

To pedal around on with an already heavy squishy fork, that would suck dick.

 

[djjohnr]

To pedal around on with an already heavy squishy fork, that would suck dick.

I'd only use that setup for shuttling/chairlift days. If I wind up able to run the Dorado at 203mm I'll put a 36 on for pedal days.

 

[kidwoo]

You should just get two dorados and shorten one to 170. Then just change out legs in the crowns

 

[4130biker]

Doesn't the dorado already have ~10mm A-C than a boxxer of the same travel? Just something to think about when you're already going with a bigger wheel and longer travel. Could add up to quite the chopper. Why not a talas 180? Would be higher and slacker than the lowered boxxer, but could be a perfect geometry change for pedaling at 140mm.

 

[djjohnr]

You should just get two dorados and shorten one to 170. Then just change out legs in the crowns

Tempting

Doesn't the dorado already have ~10mm A-C than a boxxer of the same travel? Just something to think about when you're already going with a bigger wheel and longer travel. Could add up to quite the chopper. Why not a talas 180? Would be higher and slacker than the lowered boxxer, but could be a perfect geometry change for pedaling at 140mm.

Haven't looked at the Boxxer 27.5's axle to crown, but the Dorado A-C is 4mm taller then a 27.5 40. If you set the Dorado to 180mm the A-C is exactly the same as the stock 180mm X-Fusion Metric (570mm). It should slack it out ~2 degrees to 62.5" which may be too much; won't know until I try. As for why I don't get a Talas - I prefer the fore-aft stiffness of a dual crown for full on DH riding and I'd like to see if I can get 8" up front. The Talas would be interesting as a trail fork for it if I trusted it...

 

[djjohnr]

Got it Saturday - 2015 650b EVO. Testing 203mm travel up front with 26" wheels right now. Still waiting for the Ohlins to get here.

 

[Trasselkalle]

Please refrain from posting pictures that make me question if I really should have gotten a DH bike! No seriously, looks great and keep us updated. Did you ride it yet? I understand that the Ohlins in more for DH use than any sort of pedalling, so it might be worth checking out whatever it is you have on already just so you know if it's worth it with the Ohlins.

 

[djjohnr]

Please refrain from posting pictures that make me question if I really should have gotten a DH bike! No seriously, looks great and keep us updated. Did you ride it yet? I understand that the Ohlins in more for DH use than any sort of pedalling, so it might be worth checking out whatever it is you have on already just so you know if it's worth it with the Ohlins.

2 rides so far on the stock Fox Van R. Compression valving on the Fox feels pretty middle of the road. Bike pedals well for 180mm of travel, better then I expected. My main concern isn't suspension efficiency so much as it is a good seat tube angle for climbing. The seat tube angle on this thing is perfect. I did a long grind Sunday with no problems and it handled a super steep fire road just fine. The 28 x 11/42 gearing helps

I didn't completely stick to my original plan; while I did sell my AM and DH bikes I couldn't help also picking up one of the Yeti SB75s that's being blown out on the internet, so I also have a good climbing bike when I want one.

As far as the 650b EVO as a DH bike so far:

- Size M w/203mm fork and 26" wheels: 47" WB, ~64 degree HA, 13 3/8" BB height
- Rear is a bit more progressive then the uber linear Yeti 303R I'm coming off of. Feels firmer, which may be a good thing in comparison. If I rode the bike without knowing the rear travel I doubt I'd guess that it was 7" instead of 8".
- Handled the rocky gnar that I like to setup my bikes for perfectly.
- Interested to see what it's like with 27.5" wheels and the fork at 180mm. Increased rollover may make up for the 1" of travel when descending rocky chutes.

 

[Trasselkalle]

Sounds promising, I must say. While I don't mind roots and rocks, a bit less of them where I ride and I would be taking the same route you are instead of a full-DH bike. I would love to have an all-day bike with the DH capability that you're likely to have, as sort of an exploration bike and maybe even bring tent and so on in the backpack for long adventures into the outback.

No feelings that the dual crown hinders maneuverability on more technical sections (uphill maybe in particular, but tight/tricky sections downhill also)? My guess is that you'll get used to a firmer rear pretty quickly and find ways to ride that turns that into an advantage. At least that's how I feel whenever I jump between my full-sus and HT, but that's not while riding DH so take it as pure speculation and wishful thinking.

Hehe - nice with an SB75 also. The itch got too bad? I can understand your decision though. I'd probably still want an XC HT with decently aggressive geo and ofc a CX bike (I'm odd that way), just because it can be fun to blast uphill and smooth trails in 'whatever-land' if you don't live right next to rougher terrain and just have to go for a ride 'real quick' ("I promise, darling, I'll be home in an hour tops and yes I know we have guests comming...").

 

[OffCamber]

Hoping mine arrives soon. Gonna PUsH the rear shock and try out the HLR damper on the X-Fusion.

 

[djjohnr]

No feelings that the dual crown hinders maneuverability on more technical sections (uphill maybe in particular, but tight/tricky sections downhill also)? My guess is that you'll get used to a firmer rear pretty quickly and find ways to ride that turns that into an advantage. At least that's how I feel whenever I jump between my full-sus and HT, but that's not while riding DH so take it as pure speculation and wishful thinking.

It's not a hinderance for me. Years ago I used to trail ride a free ride bike with a Super T, so I'm kinda used to it. I don't really ride anything so tight that it becomes a problem.

 

[djjohnr]

I tested a few more configurations this week:

- 180mm fork (570mm A-C) w/ 27.5" wheels front and rear (stock config): Handles like a burly AM bike with a lot of travel. Needs a weight shift to the back seat compared to the other configs.

- 180mm fork w/ 27.5" front and 26" rear: Handles like a short travel DH bike. I'm able to distribute weight evenly/comfortably at speed. Good fun.

- 203mm fork w/26" wheels: Winner winner chicken dinner. Handles like a DH bike should. I'm able to weight the front with confidence. Still able to climb any fire road.

I have a Mattoc on order that I'll try at 160mm. The road trip setup may be two forks - 203mm and 160mm and two sets of wheels - 26 and 27.5.

As far as 26 vs 27.5 - riding around on the street and running into a curb at speed I notice slightly better rollover with 27.5, and slightly more nimbleness from the 26s. On the trail I don't notice a difference. I'd say that the move to 27.5 isn't worth the cost, however it does have the benefit of letting me do more with one bike.

 

[slyfink]

I tested a few more configurations this week:

- 180mm fork (570mm A-C) w/ 27.5" wheels front and rear (stock config): Handles like a burly AM bike with a lot of travel. Needs a weight shift to the back seat compared to the other configs.

- 180mm fork w/ 27.5" front and 26" rear: Handles like a short travel DH bike. I'm able to distribute weight evenly/comfortably at speed. Good fun.

- 203mm fork w/26" wheels: Winner winner chicken dinner. Handles like a DH bike should. I'm able to weight the front with confidence. Still able to climb any fire road.

I have a Mattoc on order that I'll try at 160mm. The road trip setup may be two forks - 203mm and 160mm and two sets of wheels - 26 and 27.5.

As far as 26 vs 27.5 - riding around on the street and running into a curb at speed I notice slightly better rollover with 27.5, and slightly more nimbleness from the 26s. On the trail I don't notice a difference. I'd say that the move to 27.5 isn't worth the cost, however it does have the benefit of letting me do more with one bike.

No irony here, simple question: at that point, isn't the outlay in cash greater for two forks and two sets of wheels greater than having two (used) bikes that would arguably be better at their intended purpose?