DB Air on a TR450
- Thread starter dfinn
- Start date
I will preface this by saying Rick Perry knows as much about shock and suspension set ups as I do, but I was always under the impression that the CCDB Air was designed & marketed as an AM shock, and not a true alternative to a DH coil. Which is not to say others haven't tried it, and perhaps successfully, on their respective DH bikes. I too have a TR450 and rate high on the hack meter, but I've always felt the bike is pretty progressive at the end of the stroke, and that would seem (to me anyway) not to match up well with the natural progressivity of an air shock. My old Spitfire on the other hand was regressive at the end of the stroke, which did mean most air shocks worked well with it (and conversely it would take a "specially tuned" coil shock to work well with it). All that said, perhaps the CCDB air has a big enough air can to where it works a lot differently than say the average RP3, not to mention the cornucopia of adjustment options available. So that was really helpful wasn't it?
But really, if you're happy with the RC4 (as I am), I wouldn't spend considerable amounts of cash on an air shock that might or might not work as well, just to lose to some weight. Instead, drill speed holes and remove heavy, excess shims from your suspension (which can in turn generate income when you sell them to Avy).
But really, if you're happy with the RC4 (as I am), I wouldn't spend considerable amounts of cash on an air shock that might or might not work as well, just to lose to some weight. Instead, drill speed holes and remove heavy, excess shims from your suspension (which can in turn generate income when you sell them to Avy).
i know a number of people who are using DBAir's on the dh rigs with 0 issues.
CCDB coil or avalanche coil shock (which blow away any rc4 everyday) + ti spring.
go shred.
its a DH bike, and you weight 225. saving .25-.5lbs of frame weight vs. a ti spring in weight isn't going to do sh*t for you unless you have already maxed out weight savings in rotational weight (tires, rims, spokes, pedals, shoes, pedals, cranks, toe nails), and then unsprung weight (hubs, fork, rotors, etc), and have THEN upgraded all the super easy and cheap weight savings stuff on the frame (thomson masterpiece seat post, 150g roadie saddle, carbon dh bars, foam grips, blinder stem, etc)
of course, a coil shock is more expensive than a air shock, once you figure in the spring... so yeah. do it
go shred.
its a DH bike, and you weight 225. saving .25-.5lbs of frame weight vs. a ti spring in weight isn't going to do sh*t for you unless you have already maxed out weight savings in rotational weight (tires, rims, spokes, pedals, shoes, pedals, cranks, toe nails), and then unsprung weight (hubs, fork, rotors, etc), and have THEN upgraded all the super easy and cheap weight savings stuff on the frame (thomson masterpiece seat post, 150g roadie saddle, carbon dh bars, foam grips, blinder stem, etc)
of course, a coil shock is more expensive than a air shock, once you figure in the spring... so yeah. do it
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Spend the money on blow to drop the weight in a more entertaining way.
but yea, it does seem to be marketed more towards the AM crowd... because that's likely where they'll sell more of them. also available in 9.5"x3.0" and 10.5"x3.5" for DH applications.
Jackalope nailed it, the TR450 is already quite progressive and thus probably not the ideal candidate for an air shock - you'll have difficulty finding a balance between using all the travel and not sitting too deep in the travel to achieve that. If you're happy with the RC4 just stick with it, throw on a Ti spring if you haven't already.
Unless you are under 155lbs I would not use a Air Shock for all around DH. You will have to set the Air shock up at about 45% to 55% Sag to be happy with the feel verse a Coil. My Jr rider is running a X-Fusion Vector Air HLR on his TR450. It is dialed for his weight at about 45% Sag. I tried it and as a weight of 170lbs I would have to set it at about 55% to get what I want. I run a Vector HLR Coil on my TR450. Much better feel over the Fox and better tune. If you must have an Air I would try the X-Fusion to save you $$. The DB is a great shock for the $$ and has the most tuning ability over any other shock out there. I know about 6 guys running the DB Air and like it. They too have to run a very High Sag at about 55%. As a racer I don't like to drop more than 40% on my race bikes, even set as soft as I like my setup. You will have to give that up if you want to run an Air Shock. This also will effect your ride height too. Your BB will be Low! At your weight, I would say spend the $$ on a Ti Spring and get your shock tuned right for you.
Good luck,
Cecil
Good luck,
Cecil
http://forums.mtbr.com/transition-bikes/vivid-air-tr450-687856.html
Read post #9, RE: travel usage on TR450 with Vivid Air.
Not to discredit your opinion but air shocks are generally progressive at end of stroke, I have only had a small amount of ride time on the Vivid Air but it didn't feel hugely more linear than any other air shock. Perhaps a little.
The other thing worth nothing is that the DW-DHR and TR450 are different animals (assuming that's the DHR you're talking about). On a typical progressive design, the higher leverage ratio in the first half of the stroke results in that portion of travel being used up very easily. The dual progressive curve (ala DW-DHR) prevents that wallow by making the middle third or so of travel more linear.
Having ridden both bikes I know for a fact that sprung similarly, the TR has a tendency to ride deeper in its travel, and I'm fairly sure an air shock would only exacerbate that characteristic.
Having ridden both bikes I know for a fact that sprung similarly, the TR has a tendency to ride deeper in its travel, and I'm fairly sure an air shock would only exacerbate that characteristic.
No kidding. I was just saying that making the generalization that a shock will be more progressive because it's air, than any coil because it's a coil, isn't always accurate. (I guess that was as much a response to your quoted text, more than what you specifically were saying.......my bad). An RC4 is obviously a little bit of a special case, but I'd bet you money that riding both shocks on the same frame, your opinion would be the same as mine.
I haven't ridden a TR450 enough to have a solid understanding of what the frame itself is doing so you might be right. It was the generalization I was pointing out as suspect.
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My point was, what works on your DHR won't necessarily work on a TR450. The differences between them are significant enough to require different setups.
But off the topic, I'd take you up on your bet if there was a fair way to gauge it - unfortunately it's entirely apples to oranges because the RC4 is only progressively damped while the air shock is progressively sprung, and thus pretty hard to quantify. Out of curiosity, did you measure sag % with both setups? What were the numbers? Also keep in mind that minimum progression on an RC4 involves minimum bottom out and minimum chamber pressure (125).
But off the topic, I'd take you up on your bet if there was a fair way to gauge it - unfortunately it's entirely apples to oranges because the RC4 is only progressively damped while the air shock is progressively sprung, and thus pretty hard to quantify. Out of curiosity, did you measure sag % with both setups? What were the numbers? Also keep in mind that minimum progression on an RC4 involves minimum bottom out and minimum chamber pressure (125).
Let me know how that works out! I would love to try an air shock on my TR450 as well. looking for expierence!
Sag? Oh yeah........took me FOREVER to get it dialed on the vivid air. But I rode both of them somewhere between 30 and 40%. I definitely had the RC4 wide open very intentionally (yes full sized air chamber, yes 120ish psi).
Something keep in mind with coils (especially something like an RC4) is that there's an air spring in them too. You know this. In fact that's part of what makes them so progressive.... All that big shaft volume is getting taken up in that air spring.
But yeah like I said, I don't know dick about how the TR50s work because I've only ridden two of them, setup by and for other people with one shock. (so I'll shut up now about that one specifically
) But I do know I prefer the LESS progressive vivid air over the RC4 that came on my current bike. I'm really leaning towards trying a CC DBair on it.......mostly for what I'm assuming is a much more refined compression damping system.
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The air spring component in the RC4 wouldn't play a huge part in why they are progressive (especially set at largest volume and 120psi), the primary reason for the progression on that shock is the boost valve, which essentially amplifies compression damping as the pressure increases in the air chamber (and thus as the shock gets deeper into the travel).
You seem to have forgotten that the Vivid Air shock still has a damper with its own air spring effect anyway, and while it has a smaller damper shaft than the RC4, it runs about 200psi of pressure. I think if you worked out the difference between the two on damper air spring effect alone, the difference would not be significant enough to offset the inherent progression in a dedicated air spring.
The reason I asked exactly what sag you were running on each setup is because chances are, you're running more sag on the air shock to use all its travel because it is in fact more progressive (at least that is what most people seem to do with air shocks on DH bikes, me included) - but with your vague '30-40% on both' I can't jump to any conclusions.
You seem to have forgotten that the Vivid Air shock still has a damper with its own air spring effect anyway, and while it has a smaller damper shaft than the RC4, it runs about 200psi of pressure. I think if you worked out the difference between the two on damper air spring effect alone, the difference would not be significant enough to offset the inherent progression in a dedicated air spring.
The reason I asked exactly what sag you were running on each setup is because chances are, you're running more sag on the air shock to use all its travel because it is in fact more progressive (at least that is what most people seem to do with air shocks on DH bikes, me included) - but with your vague '30-40% on both' I can't jump to any conclusions.
I just put a DBair on my Intense SS. It replaces a DHX and I tried a Monarch.
I've got 4 big days on it already. So far, it's rad. The suspension feels much more active and less harsh than it ever felt with a the DHX. The exact opposite of what one would expect from an air shock.
I am not quite getting full travel, but honetly, I'm ok with that on this bike. It rides really well as is and if this means it will be a 5" bike, then so be it. That sounds weird but it's setup as a big AM bike so it works. Right now it's a 5" with a low BB and a slack HA and a full length seatpost. Awesome.
I'm pretty sure I could get full travel with less sag, but then it would sit deeper in it's travel and this bike can't be much lower. I'm running zero turns of HSC. So yeah, if I tuned it for DH, I could run less preload and more HSC to raise the ride height and I bet it would be rad.
I've got 4 big days on it already. So far, it's rad. The suspension feels much more active and less harsh than it ever felt with a the DHX. The exact opposite of what one would expect from an air shock.
I am not quite getting full travel, but honetly, I'm ok with that on this bike. It rides really well as is and if this means it will be a 5" bike, then so be it. That sounds weird but it's setup as a big AM bike so it works. Right now it's a 5" with a low BB and a slack HA and a full length seatpost. Awesome.
I'm pretty sure I could get full travel with less sag, but then it would sit deeper in it's travel and this bike can't be much lower. I'm running zero turns of HSC. So yeah, if I tuned it for DH, I could run less preload and more HSC to raise the ride height and I bet it would be rad.
Nah.
I also never said that a vivid air won't ramp up. Just that it does it less so (or more to the point, later than what it replaced on what I'm riding at the moment. I guess I could clarify that by adding 'within the range of most used travel.' On neither shock Have I ever bottomed the bike. What the vivid has done is loosen up the midrange of the travel quite a bit for the same sag. That bigass air chamber is that way for a reason. Like every single air spring ever made, of course it's going to ramp up. But that functional range of travel is going to be highly variable depending on the size of its chamber dictating when that ramp gets felt.
I'm going to go ahead and save you some time for future discussions with the following declaration: I know how to setup bikes.
Now that you know that, the statement I made earlier about taking forever to get the sag dialed on the vivid should make more sense and you can lay off the silly assumptions. Seriously, it ain't rocket surgery. I'm not going to go around riding a bike that sits well into half its travel.
edit: Going back and rereading the progression of this thread (pun intended), I agree with you that the differences in frame design make this kind of a moot point.....I have no idea what effect it would have on a TR450. But at the same time, even a flattish zone in a frame's designed leverage curve will illustrate the differences between two shocks. And if you take what I've been alluding to that it's no so much the degree of how much a shock ramps, but where, neither of us is really contradicting each other and are just lobbing tangential truths around. But don't you have a DHR? Throw a vivid on the beyotch and get back to me.
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That's distinctly different from:
What you say now suggests that what you're actually feeling is the slight mid-stroke fall off that's common in air shocks, rather than a lack of progression vs. the RC4. It probably doesn't feel like a fall off to you because the DHR's shock rate is fairly linear in that region. If you haven't bottomed out either shock, and didn't set both up with the exact same sag, it would be difficult to conclude something as specific as you have (at least it would be for me!).
I haven't got a DHR but I'll have a play around if I get a chance to on one with Vivid Air. Also I didn't question your ability to setup bikes, I'm sure you can do it just fine.
Not really. What you linked to in that mtbr thread regarding the transition and limited travel is how my DHR felt with the RC4. I could have been more specific...granted.
'Mid stroke fall off' compared to an obvious resistance to further compression from about the halfway point with the RC4 I could go with. I'd say that could be accurate terminology.
Kind of OT but has the CCDB Air's not-bottoming out issue been resolved?
It's quite strange since Cane Creek themselves advertises it as an alternative to ccdb coil for the frames that require a progressive shock. Sometimes it's good to read the ads
Though I wouldn't get a progressive shock for a 450.