[Orvan]

what's the actual difference?
I was raised/baptized as a cathoilic and went to a catholic school.
The bible seem to be the same. We have Saints (we don't need that many I'm sure) and Blessed Virgin Mary (which I noticed is often or completely ignored by Christians). We have the rosary, christians don't. So my question is, are Christians (beliefs and practices) and Catholics really that different? My Baptist Church friend thinks so....he won't show any regards to Catholic beliefs bec we follow different scriptures and the image of our God is different..huh? I need enlightenment...


But Catholic churches do have nice interior ambience, I'd give them that.....

 

[Babar]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_capr.htm

Almost every christian (majority like bap's,metho's,presby's,luther's,naza's etc..) believe these are cults, reason is because it's dangerous, non-traditional beliefs basically we find that these listed do not believe what it says in the original bible (kinda like they made there own phony stuff do stuff that's totally out of bible)

List: (Catholic, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the "Mormon church), the Unification church, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses.)

Reminder: Im not saying these guys are baddy just saying the majo. of protestant believe that it's a fact to them.

Obviously everyone has there own opinion.

 

[fourgivn1]

I can field this one. Catholics, by and large, ARE Christians. The problem lies within some of the things that SOME Catholics/Catholic organizations practice. (Not all of them practice these things.) For instance, not all do this, but quite a few Catholics pray TO the Virgin Mary. That's straight up wrong, according to the Bible, and as we know, Christians believe the Bible is the divinely-inspired word of God. We pray to God/Jesus, which it specifically says to do in the Bible (I can find examples if you want 'em.) Some also pray to the saints.....that's also wrong. Nothing wrong with honoring the saints, and the Virgin Mary. But when you PRAY to them, you're putting them in God's/Jesus's place, and that is not right.

Does this mean they're not Christian? No. ALL that is required to be a Christan is to repent of your sins, recognize that you need a Savior, and accept Jesus as your savior. That's it.

(Side note....I'm NOT preaching. I'm stating what the Bible states you have to do to become a Christian.)

 

[LeatherFace]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
For instance, not all do this, but quite a few Catholics pray TO the Virgin Mary. That's straight up wrong, according to the Bible, and as we know, Christians believe the Bible is the divinely-inspired word of God. We pray to God/Jesus, which it specifically says to do in the Bible (I can find examples if you want 'em.) Some also pray to the saints.....that's also wrong. Nothing wrong with honoring the saints, and the Virgin Mary. But when you PRAY to them, you're putting them in God's/Jesus's place, and that is not right.

I think you should understand that the Virgin Mary and the saints are not revered as God/Jesus for Catholics. When Catholics pray to them, they are asking for their help in approaching God/Jesus. They are regarded as messengers, and some saints serve a specific purpose in helping an individual by asking God for help in their behalf--i.e. St. Christopher is the saint of travellers, St. Jude the saint of lost things. You won't see a congregation saying the "Our Father" and inserting "St. Francis" in for the "Father" word. Granted, there is the "Hail Mary" prayer, but this is of praise of how magnificent a role she had in God's plan. So, to clear this all up, Mary and the saints are not put in God/Jesus' place.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by LeatherFace


I think you should understand that the Virgin Mary and the saints are not revered as God/Jesus for Catholics. When Catholics pray to them, they are asking for their help in approaching God/Jesus. They are regarded as messengers, and some saints serve a specific purpose in helping an individual by asking God for help in their behalf--i.e. St. Christopher is the saint of travellers, St. Jude the saint of lost things. You won't see a congregation saying the "Our Father" and inserting "St. Francis" in for the "Father" word. Granted, there is the "Hail Mary" prayer, but this is of praise of how magnificent a role she had in God's plan. So, to clear this all up, Mary and the saints are not put in God/Jesus' place.

Christians don't need an in between to get to God. The blood that was shed by Jesus when he was crucified paid our debt, and sanctified us to God. So basicly were allowed to talk to God as we are cleansed by the previously mentioned blood.

Now about this blood. When Catholics take communinion they beleive that the wine and bread literally are Jesus. Some prodestant churches also beleive this too. Which is icky. But who am I to say?

Anyhow as of late the differences are growing smaller.

 

[Babar]

Thing is that it cleary states in bible that no one is needed ( meaning no need for messenger stuff) you will go through no one.

If im praying why would i want to go through someone ? When i can directly talk and listen to G,J,HS

I want personal realtionship with God,Jesus and holy spirit...
not mary or some saint...

 

[LeatherFace]

Originally posted by Babar
Thing is that it cleary states in bible that no one is needed ( meaning no need for messenger stuff) you will go through no one.

If im praying why would i want to go through someone ? When i can directly talk and listen to G,J,HS

I want personal realtionship with God,Jesus and holy spirit...
not mary or some saint...

I'm just telling you what Mary and the saints mean to Catholics...this is how they view them, as messengers, like angels and the like. You may not agree, but this is how Catholics view them.

 

[jabberwocky]

Originally posted by Orven
what's the actual difference?
I was raised/baptized as a cathoilic and went to a catholic school.
The bible seem to be the same. We have Saints (we don't need that many I'm sure) and Blessed Virgin Mary (which I noticed is often or completely ignored by Christians). We have the rosary, christians don't. So my question is, are Christians (beliefs and practices) and Catholics really that different? My Baptist Church friend thinks so....he won't show any regards to Catholic beliefs bec we follow different scriptures and the image of our God is different..huh? I need enlightenment...


But Catholic churches do have nice interior ambience, I'd give them that.....

I didn't read what everybody else has replied, but basically Catholocism is a branch of christianity, along with baptists, Protestants, Calvanists, Methodists, Lutherans, Mormons and the list goes on to cover other sects and cults such as the Branch Davideans who went ablaze in Wacko texas.

And so you are right, they are the same. However, remember that just b/c it is a sect of Christianity, it is not christianity itself, but an interpretation of the bible that many people follow.

 

[LeatherFace]

Originally posted by ummbikes





Now about this blood. When Catholics take communinion they beleive that the wine and bread literally are Jesus. Some prodestant churches also beleive this too. Which is icky. But who am I to say?

Yeah, my dad flipped when I told him that communion was "ritualized cannibalism."

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by LeatherFace


I think you should understand that the Virgin Mary and the saints are not revered as God/Jesus for Catholics. When Catholics pray to them, they are asking for their help in approaching God/Jesus. They are regarded as messengers, and some saints serve a specific purpose in helping an individual by asking God for help in their behalf--i.e. St. Christopher is the saint of travellers, St. Jude the saint of lost things. You won't see a congregation saying the "Our Father" and inserting "St. Francis" in for the "Father" word. Granted, there is the "Hail Mary" prayer, but this is of praise of how magnificent a role she had in God's plan. So, to clear this all up, Mary and the saints are not put in God/Jesus' place.

Actually, I understand that perfectly. (No I'm not being mean....I do understand it. ) There is nothing wrong with honoring a saint, or the Virgin Mary, etc. You will also notice that I said SOME Catholics....not all Catholics do it. There's nothing wrong with giving respect/recognition to her for her part in God's plan.

BUT, there ARE Catholics who revere the Virgin Mary almost as much as they do Jesus/God. My grandmother (and her entire church) is an example. And even if they did not revere her as much, the fact that they pray to ANYONE but God/Jesus alone is wrong, according to the Bible.

For me, a lot of Christians nowadays (even some within my own church) tend to depend way too much on tradition. For instance, I go to a Baptist church, and Baptists are known for having a committee for every little stinkin' thing. *LOL* The Bible, to me, is the word of God, and if something that ANY church teaches - including my own church - does not line up with it, then it is wrong.

 

[Babar]

I personally feel that saint and mary and pope is just an idol, in bible it says you will have no idol before me. And i come from very conservative family(calvinist) so i tend to be harsh in someways...

 

[fourgivn1]

Hear hear Babar. *L* I'd agree.

 

[Babar]

heh ....

 

[ibismojo]

Originally posted by Orven
what's the actual difference?
I was raised/baptized as a cathoilic and went to a catholic school.
The bible seem to be the same. We have Saints (we don't need that many I'm sure) and Blessed Virgin Mary (which I noticed is often or completely ignored by Christians). We have the rosary, christians don't. So my question is, are Christians (beliefs and practices) and Catholics really that different? My Baptist Church friend thinks so....he won't show any regards to Catholic beliefs bec we follow different scriptures and the image of our God is different..huh? I need enlightenment...


But Catholic churches do have nice interior ambience, I'd give them that.....

Catholics consider themselves Christians. Lutherans consider themselves Christians. Baptists consider themsevles Christians. Jehovahs consider themselves Christians. MORMONS consider themselves Christians. It isn't just Christians and Cathlics. You call a person Christians based on their faith that there is only one God and that that one God sent Christ to forgive our sins. That is the basis of Christianity. How each group of people interpret their experiences and the bible is gonna define them as Lutherans, Cathlics, Baptists, etc....

Of all the sects of Christianity...I have the biggest issue with the Mormons. Granted within the Mormon community there will be extremes as to how far they go to the point where they'd be labeled as a cult but the Mormon community is EXTREMELY TIGHT KNIT. So when someone shares horrible experiences within the heart of the Mormon community, ie Salt Lake City, Utah, I have little doubt that they are lying (www.exmormon.org). Perhaps they may have exaggerated their experiences and that "things" have been toned down a bit, but adding another book to the Bible? That's reeking a big "BS" to me. This by no means is a judgement on those who believe in the book of latter day saints. I just don't share your views on Christianity as you don't share anyone else's view on Christianity. BTW, I grew up near a Mormon and church and what really got to me is that there were A LOT of pretty girls going in and out of that place. Then I'd go to the United Methodist Church and just hung my head in disappointment.

 

[Babar]

Heh ibismojo i have to agree there some hot mormon girls...

*cough* theres this presbyterian (i won't name it) church with lots of hot girls...

 

[ibismojo]

Originally posted by Babar
Heh ibismojo i have to agree there some hot mormon girls...

*cough* theres this presbyterian (i won't name it) church with lots of hot girls...

if there was ever a reason for me to go and convince people to change their following....that'd be it

 

[Damn True]

Mormonism - spooky.

The last phrase in the Bible says that "This is the one true word of God and that nothing shall be added or taken away from it." (paraphrased)

So what do they do? Add a whole other book.

The Lord said, "Any man that gives false phrophecy is not of God."
Joseph Smith's orignal and subsequent versions of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenant and other writings contain "prophecy". Much of it has not been true. Those things that haven't come true have been removed in subsquent revisions. Mormon doctrine changes to meet the PR needs of the church.
Smith said he recieved the prophecies on tablets that he found that could only be read by him and only when wearing "special glasses". He also said that the moon was populated by men who dressed like quakers.
Where are the glasses?
Where are the tablets?
Where are the men on the moon that dress like Quakers?

 

[Babar]

DT i though the moon was made out of Cheese

 

[-BB-]

Must...
Resist...
Temptation to get involved...


Must RESIST!!!

 

[Orvan]

consesus on this thread is that Cathos are Christians, yet, when you get involved with other secs of Christian faith, Cathos are exclusionary from what they believe are true Christian beliefs...like we're some sort of a non-christian denomination crew or something. I tell you what though, growing up as a good clean cut catholic boy was a tedious one..we had to go through so many orientations (communion, ash weds..etc etc)

oh, I love hanging out in Utah....for obvious reasons :devil:

 

[BikeGeek]

Originally posted by Orven
... yet, when you get involved with other secs of Christian faith, Cathos are exclusionary from what they believe are true Christian beliefs...like we're some sort of a non-christian denomination crew or something.

It is confusing when people talk about Catholics and Christians as if they're two different things. I think it comes from way back when the Holy Roman Catholic Church was the only Christian faith. Over time, other denominations formed for various political and social reasons and because of differing interpretations of the Word. I don't know if some of the other modern Christian denominations harbor any ill feelings because of the dissatisfaction with the Catholic church that led to their formation in the first place, but I suppose it's possible.

I know people who don't agree with the goddess-like reverence given to the Virgin, and consider the Catholic church to be a perversion because of it. Not my words, or belief, but I've heard it said.

 

[Toshi]

Yes, yes, bicker amongst each other so that your churches all fall in ruins!!! mwahhaaaha. I mean, hi guys. There are some hot Mormon girls , it's ridiculous to use the line "This is the one true word of God and that nothing shall be added or taken away from it" on people who truly believe that something more has been added -- you might as well try to convince Muslims that JC was the last true prophet -- and to me, an outsider, Catholicism seems a lot closer to Christianity than Unitarianism, for instance.

 

[Orvan]

Originally posted by Toshi
Yes, yes, bicker amongst each other so that your churches all fall in ruins!!! mwahhaaaha. I mean, hi guys. There are some hot Mormon girls , it's ridiculous to use the line "This is the one true word of God and that nothing shall be added or taken away from it" on people who truly believe that something more has been added -- you might as well try to convince Muslims that JC was the last true prophet -- and to me, an outsider, Catholicism seems a lot closer to Christianity than Unitarianism, for instance.

agree....
I'm religously indiscriminate towards women of any religous sector.....equal oopurtunity even if they're not that nice to me..

Anyways, I guess some "christians" are just too washed up about their outlook towards Cathos... It really doesn't bother until some christian (and she's one of the seniors at this church)told me that the God we, cathos, believe in is different from theirs.. I'm friggin lost but I hope her daughter is just finishing college...:devil:

 

[Babar]

Orven yes we do believe in different God (calvin and lutheran) than catho's and other realigion...

 

[Toshi]

Do non-Catholic denominations have saints?

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by Orven


agree....
I'm religously indiscriminate towards women of any religous sector.....equal oopurtunity even if they're not that nice to me..

Anyways, I guess some "christians" are just too washed up about their outlook towards Cathos... It really doesn't bother until some christian (and she's one of the seniors at this church)told me that the God we, cathos, believe in is different from theirs.. I'm friggin lost but I hope her daughter is just finishing college...:devil:

Ask her to grab her Bible, you bring yours. Then challenge her to point out where your God is different from hers.

That is a bunch of dooky.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by Toshi
Do non-Catholic denominations have saints?

Cannonization is a Catholic/Episcopal thing. Maybe Lutheran too, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by Damn True
Cannonization is a Catholic/Episcopal thing. Maybe Lutheran too, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Thanks. I had been wondering about that for a while.

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by Babar
Orven yes we do believe in different God (calvin and lutheran) than catho's and other realigion...

Wow.

It'd be pretty darn presumptuous of me to think that the God I understood to be the First Cause was different than another religion's God.

The only think I know for sure about God is that I ain't Her.

 

[El Jefe]

One of the reasons I abandoned organized religion a number of years ago is because it seemed so many religions were hell bent (pun intended) on proclaiming the validity of their doctrine by slamming everyone else. I was raised Mormon, but stopped attending as soon as I moved out. (Incidentally, my first sex was with a Mormon girl...yes, they have a lot of pent of sexual energy :devil: ) When I began to question some of the Mormon doctrine, I was not looked upon kindly. When I went to a Catholic mass, took communion, then spit it out to check if the wafer really had turned into flesh, they promptly asked me to leave.

I took some religious studies and theological history classes in college, and came away pretty frustrated. Everywhere I look it seems the Bible (and any adjunctive scriptures) have been interpreted differently to suit the beliefs of said religion. How many translations of the Bible are there? King James, NIV, NLT, LB, ISV, The Message, The Good Word...... each has a slightly different take on certain passages and concepts.

I guess now I'm an optimistic, yet somewhat disgusted agnostic.

So many rituals, so many differences that people argue and fight over....it just doesn't seem very "Christian" to me.

 

[Babar]

King James (KJV) is considered most accurate to the original greek and hebrew translation.

 

[El Jefe]

Originally posted by Babar
King James (KJV) is considered most accurate to the original greek and hebrew translation.

That's my understanding as well.

 

[mr_dove]

Originally posted by Damn True
Mormonism - spooky.

The last phrase in the Bible says that "This is the one true word of God and that nothing shall be added or taken away from it." (paraphrased)

So what do they do? Add a whole other book.

I think that it's fairly common knowledge that there are many "religious" texts that are not included in the bible.

If you think about it, we only have the accounts of a few of Christs apostles. Mathew, Mark, Luke, John etc. There were 12 in all. Isn't it plausible that the others wrote accounts also.

John even wrote (John 21:25)And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. That is pretty strong evidence that there are, in fact additional writings regarding Christs ministry.

As for the statement that John made at the end of the bible, Moses also wrote the very same thing in the book of Deuteronomy (4:2) Moses words were: Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

If we follow that same line of logic, everything after the book of Deuteronomy would have to be thrown out (that's about 90% of the scriptures). Nevertheless, Moses did not mean to say that there would be no further revelation in the future and neither did John.

 

[Damn True]

If you think about it, we only have the accounts of a few of Christs apostles. Mathew, Mark, Luke, John etc. There were 12 in all. Isn't it plausible that the others wrote accounts also.

The more likely scenario is that Matt Mark Luke and John etc were among the few who could read and write. Litteracy not being what it is today except in Arkansas.

As for the statement that John made at the end of the bible, Moses also wrote the very same thing in the book of Deuteronomy (4:2) Moses words were: Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Moses was talking about the Jewish law that was created by God through him that was to teach and guide the 12 tribes until the coming of Christ. The rigidity with which they held to those words was one of the things that brough Jesus to the cross. But, that was all part of the plan now wasn't it? If Christ dosen't take the sacrifice of our/their sin on his head, there is no reason for them (the Jews) to turn away from the law as they had known it until then.

John's statement in Revelation is the Epilouge. God's closing to his message to us. "This is it. This is all. This is the way." Why would he have tapped on the shoulder of John Smith (of all people?) as if to say, "Oh yeah, I forgot a few things.". God got it right the first time. The argument that God provided John Smith new prophecy to match modern times is silly. God is omnicient, right? If so why would he need to wait 1500 years to "see how things go" in order to provide new prophecy. He knows how things will go. He's God.

I like your arguments though. Very interesting thoughts.

 

[LeatherFace]

Originally posted by mr_dove




If you think about it, we only have the accounts of a few of Christs apostles. Mathew, Mark, Luke, John etc. There were 12 in all. Isn't it plausible that the others wrote accounts also.

It was always my understanding that Matthew and John were the only apostles, Mark and Luke were not part of the 12.

Lets see...Peter, Andrew, John, Matthew, Simon, James brother of John, Philip, James the lesser, Bartholemew, Thomas, Thaddeus, Judas...hmmmmm, no Luke or Mark here.

 

[El Jefe]

Originally posted by Damn True


The more likely scenario is that Matt Mark Luke and John etc were among the few who could read and write. Litteracy not being what it is today except in Arkansas.



Moses was talking about the Jewish law that was created by God through him that was to teach and guide the 12 tribes until the coming of Christ. The rigidity with which they held to those words was one of the things that brough Jesus to the cross. But, that was all part of the plan now wasn't it? If Christ dosen't take the sacrifice of our/their sin on his head, there is no reason for them (the Jews) to turn away from the law as they had known it until then.

John's statement in Revelation is the Epilouge. God's closing to his message to us. "This is it. This is all. This is the way." Why would he have tapped on the shoulder of John Smith (of all people?) as if to say, "Oh yeah, I forgot a few things.". God got it right the first time. The argument that God provided John Smith new prophecy to match modern times is silly. God is omnicient, right? If so why would he need to wait 1500 years to "see how things go" in order to provide new prophecy. He knows how things will go. He's God.

I like your arguments though. Very interesting thoughts.

According to Mormon doctrine, the Book Of Mormon was written way back before, during and shortly after Christ, but was not discovered and translated till 150 years ago. Now, is it true? Well I've heard extensive arguments pro and against, and I've never heard anyone change their mind one way or the other, so to be honest I really don't care to try to figure it out.

As far as the word of God being contained in other documents and through revelation and comunication with modern Christian leaders, I don't see why it could not be possible. The Bible afterall, though claiming to be the word of God, was written by men. Sinning, human men with their own prejudices, personalities, and fears. It therefore cannot be a perfect document, especially with the multiple translations it has gone through. The Bible, and whether it is a perfect representation of God's word is kind of a tangential discussion topic, but it seems to me that people living in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries might need a little clarification of God's word. That isn't saying God forgot anything at all. Just that we as humans are imperfect in our understanding of the word. What's wrong with a few extra notes to help us along. Did God stop communicating with men (and women for that matter?) when the last book of the Bible was finished? Do Christians not pray to communicate with God? Do they not pray with faith that God will answer? If God were to communicate with some religious leader, or even a layperson, and they transcribed that information / revelation, would that not be modern day scripture? Just food for thought. I'm going to Vegas.. Later!

 

[LeatherFace]

Originally posted by El Jefe

If God were to communicate with some religious leader, or even a layperson, and they transcribed that information / revelation, would that not be modern day scripture? Just food for thought. I'm going to Vegas.. Later!

Unfortunately, we would think this person who was "speaking to God" was mentally ill and hearing things.

 

[ibismojo]

Originally posted by LeatherFace


Unfortunately, we would think this person who was "speaking to God" was mentally ill and hearing things.

or are they??

 

[Orvan]

What do non-christians do during court trials when they are about to take an oath... I'm sure they don't say, "....tell the truth and nothing but the truth so help me Allah."

 

[ibismojo]

Originally posted by Orven
What do non-christians do during court trials when they are about to take an oath... I'm sure they don't say, "....tell the truth and nothing but the truth so help me Allah."

I think it's everything except the God part.