[Udi]

How long are new Fox 40 seals lasting? If they're as long lasting as 888 seals, great. Until then IMO any miniscule amount of stiction saved(needed for stupidly fat stanchions)is barely worth the trade off for blown seals. If they're lasting longer than the older ones(as I'd hope)then great I'd definitely be keen to try them

My 2012 has seen about half a year of chairlift/alps riding (a lot of which was in the mud, with lots of pressure washing) and it's still on the original seals. Also the "stupidly fat" stanchions are only 2mm larger than the current 888, which is a negligible difference and not enough to offset 2 extra sealing lips per stanchion (my experience after riding both forks).

The other benefit which I quite like is that you seem to be able to remove the stanchion for servicing/cleaning and reinstall it without damaging the seal (which is still a pressure seal on the lower side). In both marzocchi and rockshox forks, doing this will result in pressure seal leaks >50% of the time in my experience, I'm not entirely sure why.

Shiat, I thought the old amount was conservative. Proof's in the riding I guess. Anyone notice their forks are faster(less damped)at the end of a decent or real rocky run?

Nope, and two things make your comparison apples-to-oranges:

The first is, unlike every other MTB fork I've seen, Fox use shock fluid in their FIT cartridges (which has a VI of 300+ and thus is much more temperature stable than most fork fluids). And the second is that the cartridge separates oil and air, so you aren't going to get foaming issues changing damping consistency.

It's interesting baca262 mentions his 888 was affected by this in rebound because that is logically where any foamed oil would build up on a damper with rebound at the top. I haven't felt that personally, but I suspected the opposite effect was true on the stock Boxxer because the oil level (and thus any foam) occurs near the opening of the compression damper.

 

[Optimax150]

My 2012 has seen about half a year of chairlift/alps riding (a lot of which was in the mud, with lots of pressure washing) and it's still on the original seals. Also the "stupidly fat" stanchions are only 2mm larger than the current 888, which is a negligible difference and not enough to offset 2 extra sealing lips per stanchion (my experience after riding both forks).

How is there service intervals? Seems they fixed there blowen bladders with the inverted dampners. Also seems just about maintaince free as the 888, almost though.

 

[no skid marks]

Nope, and two things make your comparison apples-to-oranges:

The first is, unlike every other MTB fork I've seen, Fox use shock fluid in their FIT cartridges (which has a VI of 300+ and thus is much more temperature stable than most fork fluids). And the second is that the cartridge separates oil and air, so you aren't going to get foaming issues changing damping consistency.

All sounds good.

 

[bullcrew]

heres the prototype cartridge a few tweaks but its about there.

 

[bullcrew]

 

[buckoW]

My 2012 has seen about half a year of chairlift/alps riding (a lot of which was in the mud, with lots of pressure washing) and it's still on the original seals. Also the "stupidly fat" stanchions are only 2mm larger than the current 888, which is a negligible difference and not enough to offset 2 extra sealing lips per stanchion (my experience after riding both forks).

The other benefit which I quite like is that you seem to be able to remove the stanchion for servicing/cleaning and reinstall it without damaging the seal (which is still a pressure seal on the lower side). In both marzocchi and rockshox forks, doing this will result in pressure seal leaks >50% of the time in my experience, I'm not entirely sure why.



Nope, and two things make your comparison apples-to-oranges:

The first is, unlike every other MTB fork I've seen, Fox use shock fluid in their FIT cartridges (which has a VI of 300+ and thus is much more temperature stable than most fork fluids). And the second is that the cartridge separates oil and air, so you aren't going to get foaming issues changing damping consistency.

It's interesting baca262 mentions his 888 was affected by this in rebound because that is logically where any foamed oil would build up on a damper with rebound at the top. I haven't felt that personally, but I suspected the opposite effect was true on the stock Boxxer because the oil level (and thus any foam) occurs near the opening of the compression damper.

Hey UDI,
I haven't had any leaky seals yet in 3 forks and I have done no preventative maintenance. I have had the SKF seals a lot longer than most. The new seals and inverted cartridge seem to have fixed all issues.

 

[Udi]

Yup, mine are still going strong.

Every now and then I clean the dirt off the outside and rub a little green oil on the stanchions... wipe off the excess, and they're magic. Try it!

 

[contactjt]

It's magic alright, nearly as magic as the disappearing quantity of green oil from my bottle when I had the pleasure of riding with you

Ben, Udi was refering to the seals leaking after servicing "In both marzocchi and rockshox forks".

 

[goodgrief]

any info on release dates for the pre-orders?

 

[buckoW]

Hey Ben, I think JT is telling you to learn how to read!

Put down the crackpipe old man!

Haha, sorry guys. I quoted the wrong post. I was responding to your comments on JM's "hydrolock" post.

Carry on.

 

[Udi]

Hey UDI,
I haven't had any leaky seals yet in 3 forks and I have done no preventative maintenance. I have had the SKF seals a lot longer than most. The new seals and inverted cartridge seem to have fixed all issues.

Hey Ben, I think JT is telling you to learn how to read!

Put down the crackpipe old man!

It's magic alright, nearly as magic as the disappearing quantity of green oil from my bottle when I had the pleasure of riding with you

I used a bucket of it to clean my chain with too, since it wasn't mine.

 

[contactjt]

he's too drunk on Koolade to have any need for crack

 

[bullcrew]

any info on release dates for the pre-orders?

The fox 40 kit will be available mid April all parts are in and ready as well as a nice little design for the 40 cart that's interchangeable for riders and tracks.
The top cap unscrews and there sits the valving no need to drain the system to Reshim, leave the fork on the bike the oil height has a bleed hole so its self leveling when serviced so no air and the right fill every time.

I'll pull mine apart after riding it a bit this weekend and go through it.

 

[baca262]

are there plans to do this cart for the other manufacturer's forks? and does the 500$ include the bottoming cones? i always thought it was completely ridiculous that the bottoming cones cost almost 200$, it's only 4 rings of machined aluminum and couple of c-clips, you can get that machined.

on the second thought, idk how much it would cost to machine but it's must be under 100$.

 

[bullcrew]

are there plans to do this cart for the other manufacturer's forks? and does the 500$ include the bottoming cones? i always thought it was completely ridiculous that the bottoming cones cost almost 200$, it's only 4 rings of machined aluminum and couple of c-clips, you can get that machined.

on the second thought, idk how much it would cost to machine but it's must be under 100$.

Yes it is the complete unit.

there's interchangeable parts that youncan purchase though for the blow off on low speed, spring preload for regressive to linear damping and the top piece pulls out with shims so its a super easy retune.....

Ill explain The rest of the technology and spring kits for blow off and preload shortly, I'll be adjusting mine out after I ride one set I'll go to the next set up and ride and so on to get a solid handle on how and why.

 

[bullcrew]

Been out beating on the cartridge and will say hands down smoothest yet, dhgnar an I rode a spot the other day and let him take a quick run on it. The fork is so much smoother than the fox internals right off the bat the mid speed is nice for transitional hits from impacts and rocks.
sorry no real pics yet, I hit this small drop then the jump to the larger drop.

The cartridge is extremely smooth right off the bat, the adjustments are wide as far as tuning with adjusters. The rebound has he broadest range yet so it can be pogo or mud you choose the Inbetween. I haven't taken the fork apart yet been a bit too busy riding and working but I will break it down shortly to familiarize with the quick tuning via shim and access to them and the blow off springs etc... craig has some really cool stuff going on it this one as this cartridge platform allows him to do them. Mainly the quick access and ease of revalving, the blow off rods and springs as well as the preload springs for the cartridge.

 

[goodgrief]

mine shipped yesterday, can't wait to try it.

 

[Sandwich]

Can anybody tell me what the difference is between this and the other Avy carts? I am considering picking up a cheap fork and doing the avy turnabout, but the Fox costs $75 more than the others and I'm uncertain as to why.

 

[no skid marks]

It's totally different. Shims are easily accessed. Should be much easier to change.
Not sure on lots of info like midvalve.
Other style Avy carts are similar to a 888 cart using open bath(lubrication) oil for damping, not sure on this one.
Have you tried a new gen 40 or 888? Probably a better/cheaper place to start. If you're in their damping range, it'd probably take a lot of mucking about to get the Avy feeling as good, even if you could make it feel better.

 

[baca262]

this new one provides a bit more tunability (change the progression by changing the ifp spring stiffnes) and consistency (sealed so the oil won't foam up). also, it should have some bottoming control internally so you don't need the bottoming cones, that's what i understand from bullcrew's post above.

it's an inverted ifp cartridge like the 888 cr or 40 (the 40 uses a bladder instead of ifp though) so it has 3 seals to blow up but these should be easily and cheaply found since they are most likely ordinary o-rings.

the old cart is open bath like the 888 rc3.

EDIT - just took a look at the avy site, yes it comes with the bottoming cone by default.

 

[Udi]

Have you tried a new gen 40 or 888? Probably a better/cheaper place to start. If you're in their damping range, it'd probably take a lot of mucking about to get the Avy feeling as good, even if you could make it feel better.

This. I'd personally put the extra money towards getting a later version of those forks rather than changing the damper on an older chassis, as the 2011+ versions of both are significant improvements on previous versions (both chassis and damper, rather than just the damper).

 

[baca262]

true. if the weight doesn't bother you much, go for a 888cr - almost the same as the rc3 performance wise (if not a bit better - more consistent but less external tunability) but cheaper, you can add an avy later if you really want to. or get the rc3 if you can find it cheap.

 

[Sandwich]

This. I'd personally put the extra money towards getting a later version of those forks rather than changing the damper on an older chassis, as the 2011+ versions of both are significant improvements on previous versions (both chassis and damper, rather than just the damper).

Are there that many chassis improvements? This is what I understand:

2004 there were some casting issues with the lowers
~2008 got the direct mount stem
2009+ saw shorter stanchion tubes
2011 saw kashima and SKF
2011 got the fit cart

My understanding is the SKF seals are retrofit-able, same with later model stanchions. It looks like I can get a complete 2011 for no less than $900. The fork I've found would let me get both the avy damper and the SKF seals and still come in about $750-800, and it already comes with the DM crown. At this point, it's just an option, but I'm a big fan of the reliability of avy stuff.,

 

[mtg]

true. if the weight doesn't bother you much, go for a 888cr - almost the same as the rc3 performance wise (if not a bit better - more consistent but less external tunability) but cheaper, you can add an avy later if you really want to. or get the rc3 if you can find it cheap.

What type of damper is in the CR? The low end RCV stuff is port orifice and the RC3 is a shim stack based damper, as far as I can tell, but I've never been able to find any real info on the CR. I asked Marzochhi, and didn't really get an answer.

 

[Udi]

I feel the extra durability of the kashima stanchions is worth it, and I doubt they are particularly cheap to buy aftermarket. The new inverted damper is plenty reliable and is tuned quite well in stock guise. There's the possible added benefit of a brand new / less used chassis with the later models.

That's just what I'd do - but on the flipside it might be fun to try the Avy damper and share your experience here.

 

[baca262]

What type of damper is in the CR? The low end RCV stuff is port orifice and the RC3 is a shim stack based damper, as far as I can tell, but I've never been able to find any real info on the CR. I asked Marzochhi, and didn't really get an answer.

inverted ifp damper, shimmed compression and port orifice rebound. the rebound adjuster looks kinda crappy though. (to me it looks like the rebound adjuster in low end rs stuff like tora - it works but feels like **** under fingers)

http://www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/Marz/Marzocchi 888 38mm stock internals.htm

 

[Sandwich]

I feel the extra durability of the kashima stanchions is worth it, and I doubt they are particularly cheap to buy aftermarket. The new inverted damper is plenty reliable and is tuned quite well in stock guise. There's the possible added benefit of a brand new / less used chassis with the later models.

That's just what I'd do - but on the flipside it might be fun to try the Avy damper and share your experience here.

lol! I get to be the guinea pig. I'll think about it. I don't doubt the reliability of the new FIT damper, but buying an older fork gets me up and running, then I can upgrade the damper and stuff later. The fox is particularly interesting in that I can upgrade virtually everything since the whole thing has existed for 8 years...so I can piecemeal a fork as I damage stanchions, lowers, etc. It doesn't sound like this avy cart is entirely removed from a 888 CR, which could be purchased for $100 less.

Are the kashima stanchions that much more durable? I know they're supposed to be slicker, but @ an estimated 5%, I have a hard time that would be noticeable on the trail, at least not by a layman such as myself.

 

[no skid marks]

I say go for it. Kashima blah blah, go the Avy cart in the 2011s.

 

[dilzy]

If your that low on cash, just get a 2012 888cr? The chassis on the 40 really isn't any better.

 

[no skid marks]

If your that low on cash, just get a 2012 888cr? The chassis on the 40 really isn't any better.

But the Avy cart for the 40 is.

 

[Huck Banzai]

But the Avy cart for the 40 is.

Yeah, Craig plays favorites......

Really.

 

[no skid marks]

Yeah, Craig plays favorites......

Really.

Well I guess it depends how you define better. Easier to access shims IMO=better. Pulling down the 888 to do shim changes although not that time consuming is still a PITA.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Well I guess it depends how you define better. Easier to access shims IMO=better. Pulling down the 888 to do shim changes although not that time consuming is still a PITA.

Truth. If one is indeed inclined to tweak, its a pretty decent plus.

I may delve into stack tweaks; havent before, although I cant imagine messing with it on a regular basis.


I've always liked Marzocchi's Chassis' best (despite the 08-09 debacle) and conceded the damping wasnt ideal, but the forks solid. With the Ava cart, boom.

And as far as seals go, I have rebuilt all of my MZ forks (2003 Super T, 06 66RC2x, 07 888RC2x, 10 888 RC3 EVO) multiple times each (>= 2x a year), I only needed a seal once - on the 66, and that fork was abused and overlooked for a while (260lber mashing Diablo while I waited for my 10 888); I have always pulled the forks completely apart and never had a seal issue. I get putting in a smoother seal, and that some people ride TONS and may reasonably need to replace seals - but I see so much talk of blown seals and I dont get it. Gauged stanchions? horribly dirty oil? 20 minute rock gardens wide open?

I have been fortunate enough to avoid stantion scratches for the most part too, so that may help.


Im no pro, not big on air or tricks, but fast and rough is necessary (and every drop in line) so I dont take it easy on my bikes.

Maybe it's because I take the damage to my body? Tim Allen style?!

 

[baca262]

it only requires a few different parts to make the cart compatible with the 888. hopefully it will be offered soon.

 

[no skid marks]

it only requires a few different parts to make the cart compatible with the 888. hopefully it will be offered soon.

This new 40 cart? I didn't think so. The 888/Boxxer cart yes, interchangeable with few parts, done it myself. Does it say this one can go in 888s?

 

[dilzy]

The problem will be the OD of the spring backed piston, will it fit into 888s. I would rather the 40 design than the regular one. Having the shims at the top and the damper and lube oil separate is nice.