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All-Mountain Question: Horst to DW experience

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
Yeah, this is an all-mountain question, in the DH forum. This forum gets more traffic.

Also, I know HL vs DW has been beaten to death, but I've done a search and it seems most discussions are from 2007, so I'm looking for some more recent feedback. Essentially, I'd like to get some impressions from people who've gone from Horst Link bikes to a DW-link bike.

I know that in theory, the DW will pedal better on smoother ground, and rip it up on the DH, but one area that I've always loved my HL bikes is being able to pedal through the chunder.

I'm currently on a 2005 Enduro that's been short shocked with a direct-from-Push Monarch. I've been riding this bike for 7 seasons now, and I'm completely in tune with it. I came into a bit of unexpected cash, and I'm thinking this could be a good time to upgrade my frame. There's nothing wrong with it really, it's just 7 seasons old, and I think eventually something is going to fail. If I have the means to change the frame before that happens, I think now's the time.

Anyways, I love my HL bikes. I'm not too fussed about pedalling efficiency (the Push tuned shock really made a difference there). I'm mostly concerned about traction in technical climbs, and as mentionned before the ability to keep hammering in really rough ground.

Availability of a Stumpy Evo is a long ways away, and my other option is a Mojo HD frame sitting in my local shop right now. Neither are available for me to test ride. I rented an Enduro in Whistler in 2010, and loved the thing, so I figured a Stumpy Evo would be slightly lighter, pedal better, and wouldn't give up too much on the downs.

Anyways, what I'm really interested is what people who've owned (or extensively ridden) HL bikes, and went over to a DW-link bike think of the change...
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I own two dw-link turners, have ridden a few sundays and a mojo, and have owned many many specialized bikes and an FSR norco.

There is no way you can generalize accurately between two suspension designs in any really meaningful way. Even within a certain design there are so many different ways to design or setup each one that even two incarnations of the same system are worlds apart in terms of on trail behavior.

Get whatever bike fits and makes the most sense number-wise. You can tune around and mess with everything else.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
According to Specialized marketing, the HL has been improved at least 3 times since 2005.
 

nowlan

Monkey
Jul 30, 2008
496
2
Why not VPP? IMO, the Tracer, Tracer2, Carbine and SC Nomad are hands down the most versatile all mountain weapons you could ask for. I wouldnt limit my choices to one suspension style.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
I own two dw-link turners, have ridden a few sundays and a mojo, and have owned many many specialized bikes and an FSR norco.

There is no way you can generalize accurately between two suspension designs in any really meaningful way. Even within a certain design there are so many different ways to design or setup each one that even two incarnations of the same system are worlds apart in terms of on trail behavior.

Get whatever bike fits and makes the most sense number-wise. You can tune around and mess with everything else.
Indeed. Basically, I'm wondering if it's worth waiting for a 2013 Stumpy Evo, or if I should get the Mojo HD hanging on the wall right now.

Why not VPP? IMO, the Tracer, Tracer2, Carbine and SC Nomad are hands down the most versatile all mountain weapons you could ask for. I wouldnt limit my choices to one suspension style.
It's funny you should mention those two companies. While I have no doubt they ride excellent when they're intact, every single person I've known that have owned an Intense and a Santa Cruz, have had them fail repeatedly. In the case of Santa Cruz, their customer service has been great, but in the case of Intense it's been a long and expensive ordeal. I know that 5 or 6 data points don't make a trend, but I ride harder (in the sense that I thrash my bike more) than all those guys, and it just doesn't inspire confidence. I know every bike will eventually fail, and in the spirit of full disclosure, I had to replace the chain stay assembly on my Enduro after 2 years. It had snapped when I was out riding in 12°F weather (hey, at least the mud had frozen!). Even funnier, is that I've offered my current frame to one guy who's got a cracked rear triangle on his 2 y.o. Intense. The shop that handles warranty wants $800 for the part, plus shipping, plus labour. Ouch.

I think the decision is pretty simple really, the Specializeds won't be available for months, and the Mojo HD is sitting there calling my name. The numbers on the Ibis make sense for me and my style of riding, and with my location. I'm just hesitant to get out of my comfort zone and try something new. But I have to admit, the value for $ of the Ibis is staggering. Especially when comparing a frameset with Specialized, which are almost double the Ibis (in carbon)?!?!

I think my best bet is to do what FlipFantasia recommends: don't over-think it!
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
Get the mojo and get a shock that you can screw with. Most notably air volume.
It comes with the RP23. I think Fox makes those volume adjusting bumper thingys for those don't they? Funny enough, I have an old (2007 I think) DHX air that has the correct dimensions to fit in there too... But I don't like that shock very much.

Thanks for your feedback btw...
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
They do. Last set I bought was about 25 bucks retail so they're cheap.

The only reason I say that is that the mojos are really linear to falling rate setups. With an air shock, that basically means you can make it feel however you want.

Those stumpy evos are really nice bikes but you know........summers burnin' away here:D
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
Those stumpy evos are really nice bikes but you know........summers burnin' away here:D
exactly! and with a trip to Sedona just around the corner (in November!). A new bike and time to get used to it are key!

ps, anyone have some good resources for trails to ride in Sedona?

pps, anyone know of someone looking to sell a 2010 Intense Spyder frame? (for the aforementionned buddy with a cracked frame)
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
exactly! and with a trip to Sedona just around the corner (in November!). A new bike and time to get used to it are key!

ps, anyone have some good resources for trails to ride in Sedona?

pps, anyone know of someone looking to sell a 2010 Intense Spyder frame? (for the aforementionned buddy with a cracked frame)
woody has an older spyder vpp rear end hanging around. he broke his front half.
 

FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,659
492
Sea to Sky BC
I know people that ride the stumpys and mojos....pretty sure you'll have fun regardless! but like woo said, man, summer is half over, get on the train!
 

nowlan

Monkey
Jul 30, 2008
496
2
Indeed. Basically, I'm wondering if it's worth waiting for a 2013 Stumpy Evo, or if I should get the Mojo HD hanging on the wall right now.



It's funny you should mention those two companies. While I have no doubt they ride excellent when they're intact, every single person I've known that have owned an Intense and a Santa Cruz, have had them fail repeatedly. In the case of Santa Cruz, their customer service has been great, but in the case of Intense it's been a long and expensive ordeal. I know that 5 or 6 data points don't make a trend, but I ride harder (in the sense that I thrash my bike more) than all those guys, and it just doesn't inspire confidence. I know every bike will eventually fail, and in the spirit of full disclosure, I had to replace the chain stay assembly on my Enduro after 2 years. It had snapped when I was out riding in 12°F weather (hey, at least the mud had frozen!). Even funnier, is that I've offered my current frame to one guy who's got a cracked rear triangle on his 2 y.o. Intense. The shop that handles warranty wants $800 for the part, plus shipping, plus labour. Ouch.

I think the decision is pretty simple really, the Specializeds won't be available for months, and the Mojo HD is sitting there calling my name. The numbers on the Ibis make sense for me and my style of riding, and with my location. I'm just hesitant to get out of my comfort zone and try something new. But I have to admit, the value for $ of the Ibis is staggering. Especially when comparing a frameset with Specialized, which are almost double the Ibis (in carbon)?!?!

I think my best bet is to do what FlipFantasia recommends: don't over-think it!

Fair enough, if you dont mind me asking, what type of issues did your friends have with the Intense?
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
23,928
14,450
where the trails are
I rode an '02 RFX for 10 years and just changed to a DW 5.spot.
At first I was not quick to warm up to the 5'er but again, I rode the same bike for 10 years. After a proper get-to-know-you period this Spring I can say that the new frame excels above the old in every way.

Technical climbing and rock crawling is a world better, lower CG took some adjustment but now rules, and shaving a few pounds from my old build didn't hurt.

If I were you and had a Mojo HD on my radar I'd go for it.
 

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,041
21
For AM be sure to look at Giant's Maestro too. I've demoed tons of VPP and a few DW bikes, and I find that the Maestro has the best blend of small-bump compliance without giving away big-hit performance. I own a TranceX from '08 and have been auditioning bigger bikes (6"-7") including the Nomad, the Carbine, the Tallboy LT Tracer 29 and Mojo HD. When I finally tried the ReignX, I was wondering what had taken me so long to go there.
 

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
It comes with the RP23. I think Fox makes those volume adjusting bumper thingys for those don't they? Funny enough, I have an old (2007 I think) DHX air that has the correct dimensions to fit in there too... But I don't like that shock very much.

Thanks for your feedback btw...
A friend of mine lives near PUSH and has tried a Monarch and a Vivid coil on his Mojo HD, he said the Monarch was a big improvement over the rp23 and the vivid was just as big an improvement over the Monarch. I'm running a Vivid coil on my Remedy and love it, plus they are relatively cheap. If you can afford the Vivid Air they have similar performance.

My biggest issue with the rp23 is that after 3 min of DH it heats up and the damping stops working. This is especially problematic for hitting jumps, as the feel is totally different warm vs cold...

Anyway, IMO the HD with coil shock is an awesome bike, I'd take it over the spec. mostly for the climbing efficiency, which I think is a step up from FSR and single pivots.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,855
9,560
AK
I've had a 6-pack/RFX since 2006, that's a pretty decent chunk of time, and before that I had an Iron Horse SGS and an Azonic Saber. The "activeness" of the horst link was always the positive aspect, way better in the rough than a high single pivot, and always seemed to hook up better than the non-horst bikes, like you said, they "claw their way" up the hills. In fact, I just sold the RFX two days ago.

The negatives include big time squat when pedaling up steep inclines, and poor absorption of "square" bumps. A really good shock tune can make the square absorption a bit better, especially at higher speeds, but the squat thing is the worst after you've ridden the DWs. With a horst it's not as bad when you shift down to granny and spin real fast, but trying to power up a hill in the middle ring just blows. It's plenty efficient on other surfaces, but this is where you notice it, and you can't tune it out without destroying the ride. I hope this doesn't sound like a big time DW plug, but until you've rocketed up a steep rocky incline on one, it's hard to describe and now when I ride any horst link uphill, it feels like I'm pedaling a wet mattress uphill. I can't detect any noticeable "chain tug" or "stiffening", but its there helping your pedaling efforts. The other possible negative with a horst is stink-bugging when braking, but most have been designed recently where this isn't an issue.

I think single pivot with linkages can ride well enough so as to be imperceptible in terms of suspension difference. That's been my experience over the years. There were other features that drew me to those bikes besides horst links. I don't foresee myself getting one in the future. No need. DW is better in all respects that I can measure, and I think there are plenty of other bikes that are as good or better these days.
 
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davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
I've had a 6-pack/RFX since 2006, that's a pretty decent chunk of time, and before that I had an Iron Horse SGS and an Azonic Saber. The "activeness" of the horst link was always the positive aspect, way better in the rough than a high single pivot, and always seemed to hook up better than the non-horst bikes, like you said, they "claw their way" up the hills. In fact, I just sold the RFX two days ago.

The negatives include big time squat when pedaling up steep inclines, and poor absorption of "square" bumps. A really good shock tune can make the square absorption a bit better, especially at higher speeds, but the squat thing is the worst after you've ridden the DWs. With a horst it's not as bad when you shift down to granny and spin real fast, but trying to power up a hill in the middle ring just blows. It's plenty efficient on other surfaces, but this is where you notice it, and you can't tune it out without destroying the ride. I hope this doesn't sound like a big time DW plug, but until you've rocketed up a steep rocky incline on one, it's hard to describe and now when I ride any horst link uphill, it feels like I'm pedaling a wet mattress uphill. I can't detect any noticeable "chain tug" or "stiffening", but its there helping your pedaling efforts. The other possible negative with a horst is stink-bugging when braking, but most have been designed recently where this isn't an issue.

I think single pivot with linkages can ride well enough so as to be imperceptible in terms of suspension difference. That's been my experience over the years. There were other features that drew me to those bikes besides horst links. I don't foresee myself getting one in the future. No need. DW is better in all respects that I can measure, and I think there are plenty of other bikes that are as good or better these days.
You nailed it with that post, my '09 Remedy is similar to a RFX, and the difference between pedaling it uphill vs friends' NomadCs and Mojo HDs is pretty big. My Remedy pedals ok due to a more linear sus curve vs many single pivots and FSRs, but I just feel like my pedaling power gets translated into forward motion more efficiently on the DW/VPP2 bikes.

I also used to have a Uzzi VPX, that thing had sooo much climbing traction it was ridiculous... combined with the 15" BB height, you could mash that bike up anything, if you have the leg strength to get a 40 lb bike up the obstacle...
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
I've gone the Horst link option to fill the whole while I wait for a single high pivot with gearbox under the ZERODE banner. I have an Alutech with Pinion box coming. With more gearing range then a 3x10 set up, and with a Horst Link rear it should climb like a goat. I'd prefer high single pivot but.
Also try grab a ride on a Mongoose, or even GT, aint half bad and cheap. Climb well, not overly plush feeling but very precise feeling for the trade off, and still suck up the hits well.
Sizing geo, and shock would be my main concerns as mentioned though. And gearbox for me. Especially if you like climbing techy stuff, being able to shift multiple gears without having to grind it through or when you're not pedaling is a huge benefit.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
Fair enough, if you dont mind me asking, what type of issues did your friends have with the Intense?
There's been a few cracked rear triangles (at least 2 for sure, maybe 3), some alignment issues, and then there was the scary flexy rear end that would eat through bearings...

I don't want to turn this into an Intense-bashing thread, like I said, I know they ride great, and that my sample of 4 people isn't representative, but it's enough to scare me off. Plus, I'm not a fan of the shop that carries them here in town, so that's another big nail in their coffin for me.

The shop that has the Ibis is my favourite, go-to shop. They guys that run it are great, I've built a relationship with them, I trust them, and they do great work. That's a big factor in my decision.

Thanks everyone for chiming in, it's been helpful.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
You don't see too many people breaking nor complaining about their Mojos... I haven't been impressed with the horst link bikes I've ridden, but the DWs always seem to pedal pretty well.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,147
796
Lima, Peru, Peru
mojo hd.
no frame has surprised me as much as a mojo.

the tracer, the nomad, the enduro... all pedal well and are relatively lightweight.
but it was the mojo hd, which had me in awe after pedalling a few hundred meters. that thing pedals!
 

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,041
21
mojo hd.
no frame has surprised me as much as a mojo.

the tracer, the nomad, the enduro... all pedal well and are relatively lightweight.
but it was the mojo hd, which had me in awe after pedalling a few hundred meters. that thing pedals!
That thing does pedal great. I don't know why they even make the shorter travel ones.
 

ZoRo

Turbo Monkey
Sep 28, 2004
1,224
11
MTL
I'd go with something like this (minus the front fender)! Simple, easy to maintain, good riding caracteristics, durable...

 

Jester

Monkey
Sep 13, 2001
180
0
Beverly, MA
So I just switched from an 06 Stumpjumper to a 2012 Pivot Mach 5.7 with the new fox CTD shock. The pivot has been awesome and is exactly what I was looking for in a new bike. The geometry is awesome and the biggest thing for me has been how well it pedals. More specifically how well it pedals through rough stuff. The stumpjumper was great but I would always get frustrated riding through flat, rooty, trails as the back end would skip and bounce all over the place and loose traction. Riding through the same trails on the pivot the bike sticks to the trail and I can pedal right through, no problem.
The two bikes you are looking at are both awesome choices. I have heard nothing but good things about the stumpy evo, from people that have had quite a bit of ride time and from people that have just done the old parking lot test. The Mojo HD was actually the other bike I was considering but in the end it was just a tad bit more than I wanted to spend. I demo'ed the Mojo Sl for 3 days and really enjoyed it however I found it to be a bit flexy in the rear and the geometry wasnt what I was looking for. The HD definitely address those issues and I think would be a sick ride.
Anyways good luck and I am sure what ever you get you will be super psyched on it.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
I'd like to thank all that helped me with this decision... and not that anyone really cares, but I thought I'd update the thread after a couple of rides on my new Mojo HD. Holy crap does this thing pedal. It's friggin uncanny. and it's a rocket ship going down too! I'm now glad I have the new XT brakes, because I really need them given how much hotter I come into corners! traction in the chunder around corners is confidence inspiring too. I'm going to like getting to know this bike!

Although I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed by the Float CTD Trail Adjust. It blows through it's travel if I hit a root climbing, and the whole trail adjust thingy seems overly complicated. I really liked the support and simplicity of my Pushed Monarch RT3... I may send it back to Push to have them revalve it for the Mojo. but maybe I should give the volume reducer kits from Fox a try first. The main reason I hesitate is because of the kashima. That stuff really does work. it's pretty cool to see how little friction there is.

oh, one last thing: the carbonz really is quieter. which lends a certain "je ne sais quoi" to the quality of the ride. definitely cool, placebo or not.
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,508
823
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
All DW link bikes should have the same CS growth/anti squat, HL bikes will differ depending on pivot placement. I think Specialized and Rocky keep CS growth minimal while Norco and Ellsworth have a little more.

Anyway, I own an Ibis Mojo but had to borrow a Stumpjumper for a race (almost same travel/geo/possition). I could feel the weight difference and shock tuning but didn't notice any real difference in wheelpath/feel. So, don't overthink it. All current suspension designs are refined to the point that other aspects of the bike should make the difference.
My 3 bikes are DW (XC/trail), single pivot (AM/FR), and VPP (DH). I like them all.
 

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
I'd like to thank all that helped me with this decision... and not that anyone really cares, but I thought I'd update the thread after a couple of rides on my new Mojo HD. Holy crap does this thing pedal. It's friggin uncanny. and it's a rocket ship going down too! I'm now glad I have the new XT brakes, because I really need them given how much hotter I come into corners! traction in the chunder around corners is confidence inspiring too. I'm going to like getting to know this bike!

Although I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed by the Float CTD Trail Adjust. It blows through it's travel if I hit a root climbing, and the whole trail adjust thingy seems overly complicated. I really liked the support and simplicity of my Pushed Monarch RT3... I may send it back to Push to have them revalve it for the Mojo. but maybe I should give the volume reducer kits from Fox a try first. The main reason I hesitate is because of the kashima. That stuff really does work. it's pretty cool to see how little friction there is.

oh, one last thing: the carbonz really is quieter. which lends a certain "je ne sais quoi" to the quality of the ride. definitely cool, placebo or not.
Nice!

One of my friends lives near PUSH and tried the Monarch and the Vivid on his Mojo HD frame, he felt the Vivid was worth the weight penalty, and also felt the Monarch was much better than the rp23.

Another of my friends got one with a CCDB air, it's a super nice bike... If it were mine it wouod be a tough decision between the Vivid air and a CCDB air for that frame...
 

sbabuser

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2004
1,114
55
Golden, CO
My biggest issue with the rp23 is that after 3 min of DH it heats up and the damping stops working. This is especially problematic for hitting jumps, as the feel is totally different warm vs cold...
This is completely opposite of my experience with the rp3 on my '06 SX (4x) and my 2012 Enduro with an rp2. I've got a ton of time on the SX riding lifts (WP/ SM/ CB/ SV), and never noticed any damping fade. I've got much less time on the Enduro/ RP2, but on local trails and racing the Snowmass Enduro with some long descents with jumps, never saw it there either. Maybe I'm not big enough at 180lbs?

Back on topic, though, I've got some experience backwards to what the OP asked. I've owned a couple older DW link bikes (7 Point and Sunday), and then my Specialized HL bikes. I really like my Enduro, but given the choice, I'd have taken a DW link bike over the horst link. They pedal better in chunky terrain IMO.