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650B Front w/ 26" Rear discussion

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
I've been thinking about this, and I know a few people here run this setup and/or have asked about it, so I thought it'd be good to list the benefits and drawbacks. I doubt everyone has considered all the factors involved, and I may have missed a few myself - so here goes.

Benefits:
1. Better bump absorption and traction where it's needed most.
Rear suspension on an MTB (particularly DH) benefits from a variable leverage curve (generally progressive) and variable axle path. It also benefits from lateral and torsional forces being transmitted through radial bearings rather than linear bushings on a suspension fork. The net result here is that rear bump absorption on most bikes is superior to the front, and is less in need of improvement. 650b front improves the inferior end while reducing the ill effects of going full 650.
2. Improved stability and/or reduced rider fatigue.
Front suspension on an MTB (particularly DH) plays a far bigger role in controlling forward pitching moments, particularly under faster riders and steeper tracks - often compromising bump absorption. 650b on front would help regain this, or allow running a firmer front end for increased stability without decreasing traction or increasing bump transmission to rider hands/arms.
3. Minimised mass increase compared to full conversion.
Front wheel is less strength-critical than rear, so it's easier to get away with a slightly lighter rim and minimise the weight gain from the conversion - whereas DH rear wheels are highly stressed and will bear the full brunt of the conversion to 650b in terms of mass increase. So this way you get to keep the stronger wheel where it's needed and minimise the mass penalty over a 650F/R conversion.
4. The kidwoo factor.
You can finally remove yourself from the pool of having anything in common with kidwoo, probably my biggest concern at this stage. I know many here feel strongly about "26 4 lyf" but have been looking for alternatives due to this issue.

Drawbacks:
1. Reduced handling and cornering performance.
Increase in rotational inertia is a bigger problem on the front, so switching this end to 650b will have a greater detrimental effect on handling, particularly cornering.
2. Increase in vehicle mass.
The increase in mass, while less of an issue at the front, is still an issue. Perhaps someone can provide actual numbers for the increase when using an identical rim, tyre, tube, and spoke set in 650b versions - but at a rough guess 150g is probably the lowest penalty you can get away with unless you sacrifice durability or traction (thinner tyres or tubes = lower traction or reduced reliablity/durability).
3. Geometry needs correcting.
Thankfully this isn't very hard with modern frame and fork adjustability, but does need to be considered and may require additional parts (Lower bars, reducing fork a2c if range allows, lowering BB if needed, steepening head angle, or a combination of these).
4. Tire economy and component availability.
Can't transfer old front tire to rear and buy new front tire. Questionable availability of 26" products in general. Possible scenario of being at kidwoo's mercy for all future parts purchases after he buys entire stock of remaining 26" items and drip feeds them to you at greatly inflated cost. Related side-effects of having to talk to kidwoo.

Feel free to correct or add to the list.
 

squiby

Chimp
Jul 26, 2010
91
13
benefits - more rear end drift in corners (fun)
drawbacks - more rear end drift in corners (control)

ultimate park bike?
 

dtm1

Monkey
Apr 11, 2015
101
2
Drawbacks:
1. Reduced handling and cornering performance.
Increase in rotational inertia is a bigger problem on the front, so switching this end to 650b will have a greater detrimental effect on handling, particularly cornering.
Wouldn't the "greater contact patch" benefit of 650 add to cornering grip and traction, allowing a faster corner before breaking loose?

When I switched to 650 I also jumped a whopping 5mm in rim width, 21 to 26mm, so that could explain why I believe my 650 corners so much quicker.... Even with a 3° slacker HA. But I always thought it was the 650b-ness. Maybe my Phoenix is just thumbing its nose at kidwoo.
 

RayB

Monkey
Jan 31, 2008
744
95
Seattle
I had given this some serious consideration and still may do it before the start of the next bike park season.

In case anybody is wondering "how much" it would cost to do this, consider this:

- 650b Fox 40 or Boxxer w/ Charger costs ~$900-1100 brand new (either OEM boxless or last season closeout)
- Boxxer Charger damper costs $350 new (+ the time/cost of retrofitting)
- If you're like me and are the owner of a pre-Charger Boxxer WC, you could sell this for ~$500-550 (Pinkbike)
- A 650b front wheel is gonna be $150-250.

So basically, you can more or less "break even" upgrading to a brand-new fork, and if you wanted to, run 650b front for marginally more money. Front tire selection is a non-issue, and honestly, there's enough good 26" tires left that you could easily afford to blow thru 2-3 rear tires per season.

I'm sure it would handle "differently", though I personally can't imagine it would be that big of a deal. Would it be any "better"? I have no fucking idea, but it's not gonna be that expensive to find out (and in some ways, you would be bringing your DH bike "up to date").
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,017
1,719
Northern California
A few more -

Positives
  • Can improve geometry
    • This is why I'm running a 26 on the back of my 27.5 Enduro EVO. It drops the bb and slackens the head-angle.
  • Makes wheelies/manuals easier
  • Easier to stuff the rear wheel into catch berms
  • Makes climb gearing easier
    • Equivalent to dropping ~1 chainring tooth
  • Stronger rear wheel
  • Lighter weight rear tire (if you're going from 27.5 to 26)
Negatives
  • Shortens reach (could be a positive depending on your needs)
  • Doubles the amount of backup tubes you have to carry (although I suppose you could just carry 27.5)
  • Sometimes you have the sensation of the back wheel hanging up more
  • Can't rotate your front tire to the back
  • Slackens seat tube angle
 

W4S

Turbo Monkey
Mar 2, 2004
1,282
23
Back in Hell A, b1thces
I've been riding a Turner DHR 27.5F/26R for 6 months now, i think it's been an improvement over the 26 F/R in pretty much every aspect.
  • better grip and more accurate,stable turning, especially in steep, loose turns. maybe slightly less quick side to side (yaw??) than 26 but nothing that can't be overcome once you know whats going to happen.
  • better tracking under hard braking
  • definitely better roll over through holes and rocks
  • increased BB height, i think the DHR was too low. Note: only raised BB about .25" to about 13.6 since i was running stanchions at 215 mm and dropped to 205mm.
  • decrease HA to 62.5, doesnt seem to affect steering on less steep trails just have to ride aggressively. 26F was 63.5 HA
  • 26 rear keeps sharp handling in tighter turns
i can't really think of any negatives, i need to get a longer stem but that's about it. I played around with bar height and it feels exactly like the 26F but the bigger wheel definitely looks more aggressive.

i still love riding my 26" pitch, been riding it more and more just to see how it compares to the 27.5 capra. The capra is definitely faster, it just eats trails, but the Pitch is more fun to ride because its so much lower. i definitely prefer the Pitch on flowier trails and the capra on rough and rocky but neither one sucks on either style trail. I'd like to ride both 27.5F/26R to compare but thats not going to happen. Having to carry 2 different backup tires on kinda suck but isnt a big deal. I still ride a 26" Speci Pitch, 26" Hardtail and a 27.5 Capra so have to keep different size spares anyhow.
 
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Dirk77

Monkey
Feb 15, 2014
233
48
I've been riding a carbon Wilson since June. I think this frame would be a perfect candidate for that wheel combo. I'd love to try it out, only thing stopping me is cost.

300 bucks for new 27.5" boxxer lowers.
new Fr570 rim laced to existing 240s hub..
I'd be 500 bucks into it. Not sure it's worth that (for me) as I just ride for fun. Race once in a while.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,653
3,093
Liteville (the Ibis of Germany = dentist bikes) offers this from factory:

http://www.liteville.de/t/25_579.html

They found a marketing name and most likely have trademarked it. If Udi is unlucky Specialized has all rights to this patented already and will soon sue him and Liteville.
 

Jim Mac

MAKE ENDURO GREAT AGAIN
May 21, 2004
6,352
282
the middle east of NY
Been waiting for this conversation as I was recently was 'reminiscing' back to when people running 26/24 combo's (BITD when people were shorter and we all lived by the river, etc)...
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Forgot to list a major disadvantage:
Braking performance suffers with 650b, there's a ~3.8% loss in braking torque assuming a 203mm rotor. Points to my buddy @toodles for pointing this out back when 650b first came out, the entire industry seems oblivious to this, in fact I don't think I've heard a single other person mention it.

You'd need a 216mm rotor to correct the disadvantage due to the leverage change alone, without considering the disadvantage due to 650b's greater angular momentum. Considering both factors, a 220mm rotor would be ideal.

Wouldn't the "greater contact patch" benefit of 650 add to cornering grip and traction, allowing a faster corner before breaking loose?
Traction yes - I mentioned this as benefit #1, this is a function of contact patch increase as you say.

However it is detrimental to handling (I used that term for a reason) particularly during cornering because:
a) The larger frontal mass is harder to displace (this is why front-engined cars are inferior to mid-engined cars). The end of a vehicle with the steering axis sees a bigger displacement during a turning manoeuvre, so in this scenario 26F/26R > 26F/650R > 650F/26R > 650F/650R from best to worst.
b) Gyroscopic effects from inertia make the bigger wheel harder to rotate about its steered axis.

I think the effect is that more abrupt direction changes will suffer and require more rider input energy, while more open corners - particularly in traction challenged scenarios like off-camber drifts will see a net benefit. Coupled with the bump rollover benefits I think the effects are positive overall.

- 650b Fox 40 or Boxxer w/ Charger costs ~$900-1100 brand new (either OEM boxless or last season closeout)
Good points, I'll add that for owners of the '15-'16 26" Fox 40, the lowers are already 650b compatible. You don't get the modified trail, but personally I don't think that's a good thing in these 'conversions' because by doing that you increase wheelbase - which is a harder geometrical change to correct. That makes this conversion very cheap for owners of this fork.

  • increased BB height, i think the DHR was too low. Note: only raised BB about .25" to about 13.6 since i was running stanchions at 215 mm and dropped to 205mm.
Good post, thanks for sharing.
I agree 100% that the DHR is too low - so I think this conversion can potentially benefit it more than other bikes. A lot of people who already have dialed geometry (on other bikes) will need to correct properly to avoid negative handling effects though. For anyone using this info it's probably worth noting that these numbers also factor in the 13mm increase in A2C from swapping to the 650b Boxxer (this is additional to the 12.7mm gained in the 650b wheel swap, for a total of ~25mm).
 
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StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,505
In hell. Welcome!
Forgot to list a major disadvantage:
Braking performance suffers with 650b, there's a ~6% loss in braking torque for a given rotor size. Points to my buddy @toodles for pointing this out back when 650b first came out, the entire industry seems oblivious to this, in fact I don't think I've heard a single other person mention it.
Where does this 6% torque deficiency come from?
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
Where does this 6% torque deficiency come from?
The bong shed apparently. Looks like I made a mistake - does 3.8% sound better?

Ft = Fc * rr / rw, where Ft, Fc are braking force at tire and caliper, and rr, rw are radius of rotor and wheel.
 

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
1,995
716
After reading WD-40's post, I realized something that needs to be considered-

If you take a 26" wheeled frame and change to a 27.5" fork, the outcome is different than taking a 27.5" wheeled frame and changing the rear wheel to a 26".

It would be beneficial to list what wheel sized frame you changed to which wheel size.

Ie. 26" DHR to 27.5 fork/wheel vs 27.5 Wilson to 26" rear wheel.

An example would be if you have a 27.5 Wilson and changed to 26 r/w, your wheelbase is still the same. But if you changed a fork on the DHR, the a2c might be longer (is it?) also changing your wheelbase, rising your stem, changing other minute things also...

Just a heads up.
 

kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,441
392
Fenton, MI
I had given this some serious consideration and still may do it before the start of the next bike park season.

In case anybody is wondering "how much" it would cost to do this, consider this:

- 650b Fox 40 or Boxxer w/ Charger costs ~$900-1100 brand new (either OEM boxless or last season closeout)
- Boxxer Charger damper costs $350 new (+ the time/cost of retrofitting)
- If you're like me and are the owner of a pre-Charger Boxxer WC, you could sell this for ~$500-550 (Pinkbike)
- A 650b front wheel is gonna be $150-250.

So basically, you can more or less "break even" upgrading to a brand-new fork, and if you wanted to, run 650b front for marginally more money. Front tire selection is a non-issue, and honestly, there's enough good 26" tires left that you could easily afford to blow thru 2-3 rear tires per season.

I'm sure it would handle "differently", though I personally can't imagine it would be that big of a deal. Would it be any "better"? I have no fucking idea, but it's not gonna be that expensive to find out (and in some ways, you would be bringing your DH bike "up to date").
You don't need a new fork. You can swap out the lowers (at least on a 40 you can, didn't look into boxxer's). As udi pointed out, a 27.5 will fit, a 40's 26" lower. A new 40 lower is $275 and I sold my 26 lowers (i convereted 2 forks) for $150 each. So $125 out of pocket to convert my forks.

FR570 rim is $70 + spokes/nipples. So you could probably build a front wheel for $125.
Flow EX = $75

Factor in a new front tires $100.
 

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,862
1,604
Denver, CO
I've run it on my DH bike. It's not a big difference, but the 27.5" front wheel rolls over things a couple percent easier, and the 26" wheel is slightly stronger and fits into a shorter chainstay for those that are into that.

I've also run 29" front, 27.5" rear on my trailduro bike and like that setup for similar reasons.
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
8,223
4,476
Greetings internet mountain bikers, the 27.5" front wheel that you're not yet running is not what's holding you back from getting on the podium in the sport class at your local DH race.
I know the offseason has started, but let's take it slow, we have 6 months ahead of us.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,651
5,567
UK
3.8% eh? :brows:

Some of my rides don't even have front brakes so I think the 96.2% GAINZ in braking when I do ride my now hugely overweight, unstable, un-rolling, non approved franken braked DH velocipede would probably still suffice*.

(* IF SOME PART OF ME HADN'T ALREADY DIED EACH TIME I'VE HAD THE MISFORTUNE OF HAVING TO INITIATE A DIRECTIONAL CHANGE WITH A STUPID "HIGHER GYROSCOPIC INERTIA" FRONT TYRE )
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,335
5,093
Ottawa, Canada
I just spent the afternoon being shown around Sedona by a fellow that owns many of the KOMs here. He's on a 29r. My world has crumbled. It would seem wheel size is not as relevant as the rider is. :'(
 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,884
450
I just spent the afternoon being shown around Sedona by a fellow that owns many of the KOMs here. He's on a 29r. My world has crumbled. It would seem wheel size is not as relevant as the rider is. :'(
 

ritche

Monkey
Dec 3, 2011
311
19
Ok got it, azymmetric wheelsets, requires, azymmetric rotorz!
but it's 215 mm rounded off! HAHA!

26 in:8 in = 27.5 in:X in

X = 27.5 in (8 in) = 8.4615 inches (25.4) = 214.9221 = 215 mm
26 in
 
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StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,505
In hell. Welcome!
Ok got it, azymmetric wheelsets, requires, azymmetric rotorz!
but it's 215 mm rounded off! HAHA!

26 in:8 in = 27.5 in:X in

X = 27.5 in (8 in) = 8.4615 inches (25.4) = 214.9221 = 215 mm
26 in
The actual tire diameters are not 26" and 27.5", hence Udi's self-correction.

On a different note, how does the tire contact patch size affect the friction forces btw? Is not the 650b contact patch a bit bigger than that of 26" tire, for same size casings, perhaps compensating for the 3.8% harder pulling on brake levers?
 

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,862
1,604
Denver, CO
Contact patch size is a function of tire pressure and load, with some influence from casing stiffness.

Keeping all other variables equal, increasing wheel diameter does not increase contact patch size, it changes the shape.
 

jackalope

Mental acuity - 1%
Jan 9, 2004
7,610
5,925
in a single wide, cooking meth...
Contact patch size is a function of tire pressure and load, with some influence from casing stiffness.

Keeping all other variables equal, increasing wheel diameter does not increase contact patch size, it changes the shape.
Typical micro-wheel rhetoric, and not based in magience (<-- the potent merging of magic *and* science, as currently practiced by Dr. Ben Carson). It is a well established fact that 29ers have contact patches roughly the size of a deflated Mickey Thompson drag race tire. In fact, not only is the contact patch (or "contact swath" as I like to call it) enlargened, but the bigger wheel will have less rolling resistance, less rotational mass, improved braking qualities (making floppy 8" rotors more stupid than they already are), substantially better acceleration and obviously easier direction change. I hope this clears up any misleading statements from mtg and other self-proclaimed "scientists".
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
The actual tire diameters are not 26" and 27.5", hence Udi's self-correction. On a different note, how does the tire contact patch size affect the friction forces btw? Is not the 650b contact patch a bit bigger than that of 26" tire, for same size casings, perhaps compensating for the 3.8% harder pulling on brake levers?
The correction was actually just because I'm a muppet and quoted the percentage increase in rotor diameter (203 = 94% of 216) instead of braking force at contact patch, my calculations and original claim on required rotor size increase were still correct.

I have measured the difference before and got a 0.9" increase in OD from 26" to 27.5" with the same tire - and for the calcs I assumed 1.0" to be on the safe side.

But sadly no, if the contact patch is larger, it makes zero difference to actual braking force. It would make a difference if locking up was the limiting factor in brake performance, but that's not a realistic scenario in actual use - especially on the front.

Keeping all other variables equal, increasing wheel diameter does not increase contact patch size, it changes the shape.
I know that applies on-road but does it apply off-road? Are you implying that there is no traction increase with 650b? I know you didn't say that - since traction is not necessarily a function of contact patch size - just curious.

I'm not disagreeing by the way (I was just going along with the marketing claims), but I suspect that with off-road terrain being neither flat nor rigid, bigger wheels *may* cause an increase in mechanical interlocking resulting in more traction.

I'm not sure whether that would be due to the actual contact patch increasing, or purely because a longer narrower contact patch of knobs may offer greater resistance to axial traction loss - keeping in mind that unlike a road car, knobs can provide a larger axial reaction without the same dependence on vertical load as on a road tire.

Interested in your reply!
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,505
In hell. Welcome!
But sadly no, if the contact patch is larger, it makes zero difference to actual braking force. It would make a difference if locking up was the limiting factor in brake performance, but that's not a realistic scenario in actual use - especially on the front.
Without too much thinking about this, I was instinctively and naively looking for an answer to my question "if the same amount of energy needs to be bled regardless of the rotor/wheel dimension ratios - where do things cancel each out", but the answer truly is about a bigger force (needed by a smaller braking torque) applied at shorter distance (smaller angular velocity of a larger wheel) at the rotor, regardless of what's happening at the tire/dirt boundary.

Plus, there was a cheek in the face hiding somewhere in there, too. ;)
 

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,862
1,604
Denver, CO
As far as contact patch, it follows P= F/A, which is Pressure, Force, and Area.

Pressure is tire pressure plus the effect of casing stiffness (ie, small, but some dork would call me out if I didn't mention it. This would be more significant on a run flat tire, and pretty much zero on a baloon).

Force is the vertical load (your butt + bike).

Area is size of contact patch.

Nowhere in that equation is there anything about wheel diameter.
Examples: if you take a 20" tire and a 29" tire, with equal tire pressure and negligible casing stiffness effects, with the same load, the contact patch area will be the same. The shape will be different, but if P and F are the same, A is the same.

Now, if you get those tires placed on uneven terrain, the bigger wheel may add some contact patch on top of a ledge, but you would get an equal subtraction elsewhere. Whereas, the smaller wheel would have the same area, just in a different shape again.

For traction differences, I never said there is an exact 1:1 correlation between contact patch area and traction. I don't have enough info to say either way that changing the shape will add, reduce, or leave traction the same. Based on butt dyno testing, if there's a difference, it doesn't jump out to me as much as the approach angle change (ie rollover). Mostly when I hear people say that some different wheel size had more or less traction, it usually is also accompanied with some other major variable, such as a completely different tire, different suspension, etc.

My own testing hit a snag because some motherfucker just stole my bike.
 

Metamorphic

Monkey
May 12, 2015
274
177
Cackalack
^^^mtg did your bike really get jacked? dayum. sorry to hear that!!!

Due to a rear cracked plastic rim, I set up my Spitfire last night as 650/26 because my old dinosaur wheels were just laying there in the corner, weeping. Immediately I struck the BB on my toolbag, but this should make me more Strava-ficcient if I am reading the thread right.

Good points about braking forces, I had zero thoughts about that when I went 26" to tweener wheels.