2014 vs 2015 36 Float
- Thread starter HAB
- Start date
Fwiw:
http://www.bikemag.com/gear/first-ride-fox-36/
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/learn/reviewed-2015-fox-36-fork
http://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/Forks,33/Fox/36-FLOAT-RC2-FIT,14737 (most in-depth)
There are ofc more, but all seem to agree on the difference being significant.
http://www.bikemag.com/gear/first-ride-fox-36/
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/learn/reviewed-2015-fox-36-fork
http://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/Forks,33/Fox/36-FLOAT-RC2-FIT,14737 (most in-depth)
There are ofc more, but all seem to agree on the difference being significant.
Could you guys please elaborate?
It has mostly to do with the return to the RC2 FIT damper and a revised, simplified Air spring System. The MY14 ones worked on the CTD damper, wich to many people felt like camel poop.
If you're wondering what changed functionally, the older fork uses the conventional Float air spring design which uses an air positive spring with a coil negative spring. This system is flawed unless you happen to run the exact pressure the negative spring was designed for, otherwise you'll either have a fork that doesn't sit at 0 travel, or has excessive preload.
The new one goes back to a more conventional system with an auto-eq air spring for the negative spring (similar to the Pike etc) - obviously meaning the negative spring rate is matched to the positive. The downside of this is that you actually get more friction because the system requires more dynamic seals than with a coil negative spring, however the benefit of the auto-eq negative spring (that will cater much better for different pressures / riders / preferences) outweighs that.
Damper wise there's not much difference performance wise, but the spring and chassis improvements make the new one worth it. If I were getting a pre-15 36 it'd be a VAN - because they work and feel better than all of the air options.
The new one goes back to a more conventional system with an auto-eq air spring for the negative spring (similar to the Pike etc) - obviously meaning the negative spring rate is matched to the positive. The downside of this is that you actually get more friction because the system requires more dynamic seals than with a coil negative spring, however the benefit of the auto-eq negative spring (that will cater much better for different pressures / riders / preferences) outweighs that.
Damper wise there's not much difference performance wise, but the spring and chassis improvements make the new one worth it. If I were getting a pre-15 36 it'd be a VAN - because they work and feel better than all of the air options.
Can't go into detail as Udi did above, I don't know much about Fox forks, apart from going by how the feel.
I had an old pair of coil Van 36 that felt great. Then tried a mate's 2014 (after using other brands' air forks) and they felt woeful in comparison to what I've been riding and tried out (Bos deville and Pike). The 2014 36 simply felt "vague", uninspiring and not particularly smooth or inspiring. The 2015 on the other hand is is the opposite of that entirely.
Pike?
Trying to get something stiffer is a big part of my motivation here.
That's helpful, thanks. I get why a coil negative spring isn't a great idea (did they at least sell different spring weights to adjust it) but I tend to run pretty mid-range air pressures (slightly on the lighter side, but run my suspension stiff) so it might not be terrible in my case.
Still sounds like I'd be better off with a '15 in general though.
To open up the discussion a little more: I've got a Mattoc Pro on my Megatrail, and I really like it. The spring and damper are excellent, but the chassis could be a little stiffer. As DanO noted, I'm not a huge guy, but I do tend to forget that that bike isn't a DH bike and I smash it into a lot of stuff. I had an older 36 Vanilla ages ago that was definitely a lot stiffer than the Mattoc.
I'm happy enough with the Mattoc that I wouldn't be considering a new fork, BUT, I just ordered a BTR Ranger too. So I need a fork for that. I've got an old Lyric Solo Air in my garage that I could lower and slap on the BTR, but the gear whore in me wants to buy something new. So, my options are:
-Keep the Mattoc on the Megatrail, put the Lyric on the BTR, spend the money I just saved on beer
-Put the Mattoc on the BTR, buy something else (Pike? 36?) for the Megatrail
-Keep the Mattoc on the Megatrail and buy something shorter travel for the BTR. Maybe a Minute? The BTR only wants a 120mm fork anyway, but I kind of like the idea of lowering something longer travel for the stiffer chassis and better damper.
I have my Mattoc Pro in the garage. Now my Mega has a 36 TALAS on the front. The fork is noticeably stiffer. I need to alter the the air spacers it is too progressive. I weigh 212LBS BTW and ride 75% rock filled trails. They are pretty close as far as the way they handle the trail. The Pike is way more flexy than the Mattoc from the few I have ridden.....
Not sure if things are different for 15 models, but something to keep in mind is the high recommended service intervals for the FIT carts compared to other options (eg - Fox is 100 hrs compared to a Pike's 200 hrs). Unless you're servicing the cart yourself, it's a fairly pricey service. The alleged stiffness and perhaps other performance advantages may be well worth that trade off, but just something to be aware of (or at least check on).
Or just be like me, and go so slow that fork stiffness isn't an issue. I've ridden a 13 Fox 36, Marz 55 CR, and now a Pike, and I've never, ever detected any difference in stiffness (185 lbs). Then again, the only time I've ever noticed it was with tallish 32 mm stanchion forks and my byzantine Marz Shiver. I've definitely noticed stiffness issues with wheels and frames, but not much with bump sticks.
Or just be like me, and go so slow that fork stiffness isn't an issue. I've ridden a 13 Fox 36, Marz 55 CR, and now a Pike, and I've never, ever detected any difference in stiffness (185 lbs). Then again, the only time I've ever noticed it was with tallish 32 mm stanchion forks and my byzantine Marz Shiver. I've definitely noticed stiffness issues with wheels and frames, but not much with bump sticks.
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I think it's worth spending the extra on the '15 since the updates are notable. The Pike would be just as good - the new Fox air spring essentially copies the Pike, and the Pike damper essentially copies the Fox.
With the negative spring, there is literally one correlating positive pressure for correct/optimal behaviour, not a range like Fox imply. You can't buy different negative rates for it either, the only fork they made that available for was the Float 40. If you can ride one first to confirm you're happy with its function at your desired pressure then the '14 would be fine though.
It's also quite easy to service the invert FIT cartridge - removing the adjusters, draining, and refilling/cycling with a syringe full of oil plugged into the top. Revalving is harder, but doing an oil change is fairly easy.
With the negative spring, there is literally one correlating positive pressure for correct/optimal behaviour, not a range like Fox imply. You can't buy different negative rates for it either, the only fork they made that available for was the Float 40. If you can ride one first to confirm you're happy with its function at your desired pressure then the '14 would be fine though.
Unlike lower services (which are critical on all of these low-volume lube systems Fox/RS/etc - I encourage people to do them more often than recommended if possible), obeying the damper service intervals isn't critical and there isn't much harm done in leaving them longer.
It's also quite easy to service the invert FIT cartridge - removing the adjusters, draining, and refilling/cycling with a syringe full of oil plugged into the top. Revalving is harder, but doing an oil change is fairly easy.
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I get that. The older RS forks with independently adjustable positive and negative springs struck me as insane for that reason. I just meant that given that I run pretty middle of the range pressures, it seems likely that I'd be reasonably close to right. Especially given the benefit of having one fewer dynamic seals I figure this should be okay.
That said, not offering interchangeable springs is goddamn stupid.
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I certainly agree that it makes sense to frequently service the lowers, as it's pretty easy and does make a noticeable difference. And while I agree it won't really damage the damper cart to exceed the recommended service interval, my 13 FIT felt like utter dog shit in well under 100 hours in terms of actual damping performance. Even my beloved Pike started to feel a little fucky when I was over 200 hours, which is laughably noticeable when you get it back from a full cart service.
about to put in my first ride on a15 float, switching from an 09 float fit/rc2.
Should be interesting...
Should be interesting...
In what way?
Just curious because all those dampers (both FIT and charger, since they are pretty much the same design) can do in terms of performance deterioration is gain or lose oil/air through the sealhead. In practice I've found that means you lose damping and have to add more compression/rebound clicks since the oil is aerated (+ a small increase in noise) - or on smaller forks (Fox 32mm) there's a small chance the damper can ingest oil and blow the bladder (it's physically smaller on those forks). In either scenario though it's almost impossible for the damper to actually feel bad / sticky / excessively damped, which makes me wonder what improvement you're feeling.
For whatever it's worth though, the '15 fork *does* actually have an updated cartridge seal head with a better seal (retrofittable), so it probably is an improvement. The previous design actually had no seal (just a wiper) and relied on tight-fitting bushings to hold oil in, which was stupid on Fox's part. I haven't tried it yet, but @tacubaya has.
My FIT 36 started to exhibit stiffness at the top of the stroke, then bizarrely blow through the remaining travel on harder hits. Basically uncontrolled horse fuck imo. My pike started getting more progressive, to the point i started started removing bottom out tokens. I've posited before that since there's so little oil in those sealed carts, it turns to shit fairly quickly, even without air bubbles or dirt. Just my usual theory based on little or no fact.
@Udi The 2015 RC2 damper used on the 36 had a revalve and it now uses 5wt oil (which is used on the motorsport division of Fox) and indeed, it now uses a dual bushing, single SKF seal-wiper sealhead that seems to be working much better compared to the older sealheads that use Trelleborg's Stepseals.