VPP forever?

[JK:UK]

for those of you who have ridden more than just the Mk. 1 v-10. Is it really what it's cracked up to be? i.e. more than just a dh thing, can it be applied to every discipline and applied well (like SC Blur)? is it really the most advanced system out there?

Is it more advanced than lawill and fsr, but also ride as well as them? i found the v-10 to take the fun out of some riding, as it works so well. any advice or help would be great, as im considering one of these new v-10's pretty damn seriously!!

thanks all.

[JRogers]

A difficult and interesting question. I have a bit of time on a V10 and, so far, it is the best pedalling DH bike I've ridden. The suspension was bottomless and controlled and the bike just went forward with each stroke. It really amazed me. VPP is a great technology and allows great liberty with design and suspension characteristics not offered with other systems. I guess, in a certain sense, it is at the forefront of technology. It pedals well, as little brake and pedaling feedback, does not cause drivetrail problems and is very tunable.

However, other designs do have benefits. As shown by race results, the rider is still the most important part and every bike has some advantage. Having VPP technology will not necessarily make you any faster. I've ridden V10s and Blurs and they are great bikes. I'd probably have at least one if I had the money. They are not the holy grail of suspension but their potential is great and, at least from my point of view, greater than many other designs.

[thaflyinfatman]

They're mostly hype. The v10 can be numerically proven to pedal little, if any, better than other common bikes (negating spv-type shocks) I think. The idea is kind of good, but the reality isn't that great. Not that they're bad, but they're definitely not what they're cracked up to be (same as everything I guess).

[JK:UK]

Originally posted by thaflyinfatman
They're mostly hype. The v10 can be numerically proven to pedal little, if any, better than other common bikes (negating spv-type shocks) I think. The idea is kind of good, but the reality isn't that great. Not that they're bad, but they're definitely not what they're cracked up to be (same as everything I guess).

ok. but is there a better design out there? or new of anything...or in fact using engineering as a guide, without some "amazing" intelligent shock, is there a pivot mechanism that can be better?

[Jorgen]

4-bar Horst link?

[binary visions]

Originally posted by JK:UK
ok. but is there a better design out there? or new of anything...or in fact using engineering as a guide, without some "amazing" intelligent shock, is there a pivot mechanism that can be better?

From all accounts, the DW-link (on the IronHorse Hollowpoint bikes) pedals very well without using an SPV shock.

Have not ridden one myself, though.

The fact is, I'm not sure there IS a "Holy Grail" of suspension technology. Thus far, every design has its trade-offs.

4-bar Horst links are inherently flexy, due to the single, small pivot connecting the dropouts.

Single pivots have a lot of brake interaction and can have some funky pedalling characteristics depending on pivot location.

4-bar "walking beam" designs are no better than single pivots, except you can get play with progression more.

VPP designs are a little dead feeling. All the sag doesn't make for a very lively feeling bike.

DW links.. Who knows? From all accounts, its very good. But the new Iron Horse DH bike will really showcase the linkage and we'll see what that's like.

Did I miss any? The fact is, 90% of the population will do a LOT better on a bike that fits them properly then on the best suspension design in the world. Choose a bike based on fit and feel, then if there's two that fit you right, choose the suspension design you perfer.

[thaflyinfatman]

Originally posted by JK:UK
ok. but is there a better design out there? or new of anything...or in fact using engineering as a guide, without some "amazing" intelligent shock, is there a pivot mechanism that can be better?

Not really, it's all in the pivot positioning. *potentially* you could make almost anything work better than it currently does, but the reality isn't such. Balfas/PDCs/Zedroinsanomachines make singlepivots pedal well by using a pulley for the chain, DW-link does it by "tuning the axle path and crap" (technical explanation ), FSR is 99% bullshït marketing (don't tell me I'm wrong, I currently own my 3rd FSR bike and I like it, but the marketing irritates me), i-Drive works fairly well but not the way the marketing claims (go figure), VPP relies on exact sag and has other negatives such as weird braking habits, etc etc.

To make a bike pedal *perfectly*, I'm pretty sure you'd really need no derailleurs (to keep the chainline constant), because what gear you're in does actually affect how the bike pedals. Weight distribution is also a huge factor.

I think, despite it being a *relatively* very simple thing, not many people at all REALLY have a grasp of ALL the factors - especially marketing departments. I'm interested to see if the new dw-link lives up to the hype, hopefully I'll get to have a spin on one at some stage soon.

[Eigil]

As for taking the fun out of it, I think you just need to push it that much harder. Furthering the sport and its technology is the whole point of new designs.

[Lumpy_Gravy]

Originally posted by thaflyinfatman
I'm interested to see if the new dw-link lives up to the hype, hopefully I'll get to have a spin on one at some stage soon.

Does anyone have any idea when the DH DW-link will be avaialble.

I know know the 2004 IH has just come out, just wondering if anyone has certain info or rumours for that matter on whether its likely to be next year or 2006, 2007 etc

[Repack]

IMHO, VPP is VERY good, but all suspension systems have +'s and -'s. VPP pedals the best when set up properly, but is heavier than FSR (I'm thinking V10 vs M1) and doesn't brake as well. Also, with shocks being as good as they are these days, the linkages are drawn even closer in terms of performance. I own 2 FSR bikes, trail and DH. I will not be running out to replace them with a VPP bike just b/c the technology is available, but I will consider one the next time I need a new bike. I have ridden severl VPP bike and think that they make the most difference in bikes like the Intense 5.5/longer travel trail bikes.

[Captain Crunch]

Originally posted by Jorgen
4-bar Horst link?

No offense Jorgen, but I don't see too many 4-bars on motorcycles. I like FSR's but I ride a bullit. It's all about individual preference, for me, Single pivot is good from the stiffness standpoint, as well as low maintenance. SPV shocks make it a better design too. There's no winning side to this discussion anyhow, we all have our opinions and variety is the spice of riding!

[binary visions]

Originally posted by Captain Crunch
No offense Jorgen, but I don't see too many 4-bars on motorcycles.

Most comparisons to motorcycle technologies are invalid. We're talking about completely different beasts here.

Motorcycles weigh hundreds of pounds and have no lack of power to overcome.

Just because motorcycles don't have 4-bar designs doesn't make it a bad design. I don't see many motorcycles running I-drives either.

[Jorgen]

On comparing 4-bars to motocycles, have you ever seen a VPP motorbike??

I would say, without too much knowledge on motorbikes, that they use "less" effective suspension designs because the motorpower they have far outperformes any extra of power any other, better, suspension-design would give the moto. But I don't know.

A humanpowered machine will certainly notice a bad suspension eaiser than a 200bhp motorbike will.

I ride a RFX, and can't say I find any loss of stifness in it's 4-bar design, but I also don't find any loss in stifness in my Tomac 204(which is one of the closest designs compared to motorbikes).
I would say that any design can be designed badly, or good.

As several mtb designers have said: "pedal platform makes poor designs better".
:-)

The main reason I like singlepivots is for downhillbikes, where they will outlast and ease maintenance compared to a 4bar, wether it be Horst or no Horst.

yeh... my statements are only my experiences, not professor-materiel, I guess :-)

[Jm_]

Originally posted by Jorgen

I ride a RFX, and can't say I find any loss of stifness in it's 4-bar design, but I also don't find any loss in stifness in my Tomac 204(which is one of the closest designs compared to motorbikes).
I would say that any design can be designed badly, or good.

Due to the bushings in the turner, it's one of the exceptions, and not the rule, for rear-end stiffness in an FSR design. Traditionally, they are just nowhere near as stiff as a single pivot (maybe with a linkage like the tomac) that has big needle bearings and a big triangulated rear end. You can double up bearings, or use high end bushings like turner to get around this, but most FSR designs are not very "stiff" comparitvely. I've handled and ridden enough 5 spots to be pretty blown away by their stiffness, but I've ridden enough FSRs in general (specializeds and my own) to know that the turner is the exception to the rule.

[binary visions]

Originally posted by Jorgen
As several mtb designers have said: "pedal platform makes poor designs better".

That is true.

But please note, it is not "pedal platforms ONLY make poor designs better".

Rather than retype everything, and so that you can read some other thoughts on the subject, look:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=14994

It starts as a discussion on the Iron Horse DH bike, but turns into a discussion on the merits of SPV shocks.