Carbon V10

[p-spec]

I understand for a mass production appeal of business and making money and economy profit ratio,carbon is great.It for sure costs less for the business to purchase and make then have to buy metal and run electricity to tigs,and pay the gas for the tigs and pay guys long hours to weld frames.

But for a weekend warrior guy and a possible self sponsored racer ( if i feel good this year ) a carbon frame is kicking yourself in the nuts.unless you have a sweet job and or your rents are rich and like to get injured.

Its not for me.

xyine:to me a real dh frame weights 11 to 13 pounds.with all the other componentry getting lighter and more advanced you can easily get the bike to 40 pounds.Wich is a good mark if you ask me.

but wat you mentioned above is absolutly true and agree with you.

If they wanted they could have thin gauge 3 butted wrapped with layers.

but that would be even more costly.....

[Cabdoctor]

Well for the general public its a bad idea of marketing.however this isn't really made to target the general people either....

so its a yes no situation.

And im sure I dont have to say more you can figure out wat im trying to say.
Its cool and all.

but if I owned a business id focus on making the best product with a lifespan.

Not a carbon frame that will 100% eventualy fail,weather from riding or abuse of rocks and etc.

And since you braught out materials and im going back to school in welding

Alu is light,stiff and strong ( wen well designed and selected gauge )
steel is stronger then alu ,yet dents easy and is flexy
Ti is stronger and lighter then the both,yet even flexier then all and probly dents easy.

Alu is stiff and strong......imagine this was carbon.......



I bet you would not be too please allready as is,but imagine the price of a carbon frame and that happened,imagine the outcome.....

its rlly not for everyone and it should be special order reserved with little to no warrenty for competition use only.

Ie making this public=waste of time and money and loss

and edit thats just my 2 cents.
And like westy said,only time will rlly tell.

p.s Ive seen trek xc bikes crack from lateral flex at the bb and stays cause of carbon....imagine a dh rig....

That picture makes no sense. Lets assume that area was carbon. Heck let's assume its the new v10. How much carbon do they have in that area? Exactly, we don't know. For all intensive purposes they could have made the BB area one solid block of carbon or maybe a carbon honey comb mix.

Using a photo like that does nothing.

It's like saying because this failed


This building is also going to collapse


I don't mean to be mean or rude, but the design of a carbon frame and an aluminum frame are just that different. You can't make apple to orange comparisons

[norbar]

Wait what? Did I understand you correctly that you claim that it is easier to mass produce something out of carbon than alu and that it is cheaper? Wow, just wow.

As for a 11-13 pounds frame - you are really behind your time. I can understand that in times of your current frame it seemed light but I can assure you I've tried a 8lbs (without shock) frame for 2.5 years and I've bottomed and crashed the **** out of it and it still holds. Same for many ppl I know. Unless you go for an ultralight frame it's not the weight that makes it durable it's the right and smart design and with it 11lb is max weight if you want to go balls to the wall with durability. In short - you sir are delusional about bike durability. Good bikes are much more durable than you thing and the bikes that crack don't crack because of the low weight but bad design.

[p-spec]

It is true and you are right about that,we infact do not know how thick it is,or if theres a hole cnc'd alu piece wrapped....

But you also dont know how big of a rock and hit it took to do that,so imagine a carbon frame...a big ****ing rock still.However it could also be someone too took a sledge to it for wtv reason.....

we dont know just as much as the carbon frame.

Norbar,unless your ****ing retarded,and im sorry if I am beeing mean.

Santa-cruz doesn't make their own carbon recipe in the kitchen.
They out source it like every other compagny for various things ( mostly material )

For a compagny,wat do you think costs more.

heres even a ****ing video I want you,AND EVERYONE ELSE TO WATCH

YouTube- How To Make Your Own Carbon Fiber (Fibre) Parts.

YouTube- How To Make Your Own Carbon Fiber (Fibre) Parts.

So my question to you...
are you retarded enough to tell me that carbon fibre costs more then metal,+running the high voltage electricity to various machines to weld+the gas to all the various machines to weld+specialized people to do the welding ( not everone can do so like laying carbon as seen in video ) oh yeah I didn't even add the raw metal material then + cnc machine time and billet chunks.

So unless your ****ing completly retarded.

Simply dont even reply and have a nice day and I hope you learn't something.

I know about carbon thanks to the automotive world.

It costs less then 100$ to make a carbon fibre hood yet they sell over 600$ each.

Imagine a high end bicycle.

And im done with this thread,have a nice day.
if you care PM me.

[norbar]

It is true and you are right about that,we infact do not know how thick it is,or if theres a hole cnc'd alu piece wrapped....

But you also dont know how big of a rock and hit it took to do that,so imagine a carbon frame...a big ****ing rock still.However it could also be someone too took a sledge to it for wtv reason.....

we dont know just as much as the carbon frame.

Seriously dude, the same could be said about any alu frame. You are paranoid for no reason. Everybody thinks that because a given force dents their frame - the same hit will crack the carbon. It's silly. In the worst case you can protect the places that scare you with some protective clear tape. I do it on alu frames because I hate dents so what's the problem?

[Cabdoctor]

It is true and you are right about that,we infact do not know how thick it is,or if theres a hole cnc'd alu piece wrapped....

But you also dont know how big of a rock and hit it took to do that,so imagine a carbon frame...a big ****ing rock still.However it could also be someone too took a sledge to it for wtv reason.....

we dont know just as much as the carbon frame.

Exactly, but there are some things we do know. There are very few companies with the ability to manufacture things out of carbon. The companies making bike frames are the same ones being subcontracted by the aerospace industry. There is a lot of cross-over. So when you see wings falling of Airbus A380s and the rotors on Apaches flying off, then we should start seriously worrying about our frames.

[WBC]

P-spec! enough! You're just talking out of your ass!

Carbon has amazing potential, and has already been used successfully for years in bike frames. You don't hear of everybody with a Mojo or BLT-c having their frames snap unexpectedly for no reason, they hold up well and as I've proven with a shop-demo Mojo, they can be shuttled fine on a tailgate - often with no pad! Even my thick as hell 2008 Turner downtube had some denting from that. There's plenty of aluminum frames that break unexpectedly, and dent easily. I have certainly broken my share of heavy Aluminum frames in the past - including my old Big Hit, my Demo 9, my SX trail, my old Norco VPS, etc. If you look at the road side, there are hardly any 20 year old aluminum frames still on the road, but there are still tons of OCLV treks and Kestrels on the road that were built with nowhere near the technology, knowledge, capital investments, etc.

If Carbon was cheaper to manufacture than aluminum, we would have many fewer aluminum frame producing firms in North America, and many more carbon frame producing firms. It says something that Cannondale builds their Aluminum frames in the US, and their Carbon frames abroad. Pinarello, Cervelo, Look all manufacture in Asia because Carbon is so expensive. Carbon production has very high fixed capital costs and is very labor intensive. Carbon is not plastic - it can't be injection molded like you do with cheap consumer goods. It requires lots of labor in setting up the layers, it requires autoclaves and molds, it's complex **** man!

[TKCastle]

Because east coast rocks are so much gnarlier than the rocks of world cup courses?

touche'

[manhattanprjkt83]

this thread is going to get so damn funny...

for people that are serious about racing this damn thing is amazing...for guys that dont have much $$$ and just ride dh probably doesn't make much sense...but of course that isn't what it's meant for...

i dont get the naysayers...i dont see how anyone can say anything negative about this?

it isnt in my future but im stoked to see development like this.

[Steve M]

It is true and you are right about that,we infact do not know how thick it is,or if theres a hole cnc'd alu piece wrapped....

But you also dont know how big of a rock and hit it took to do that,so imagine a carbon frame...a big ****ing rock still.However it could also be someone too took a sledge to it for wtv reason.....

we dont know just as much as the carbon frame.

Norbar,unless your ****ing retarded,and im sorry if I am beeing mean.

Santa-cruz doesn't make their own carbon recipe in the kitchen.
They out source it like every other compagny for various things ( mostly material )

For a compagny,wat do you think costs more.

heres even a ****ing video I want you,AND EVERYONE ELSE TO WATCH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAdVO8Rkv6c

So my question to you...
are you retarded enough to tell me that carbon fibre costs more then metal,+running the high voltage electricity to various machines to weld+the gas to all the various machines to weld+specialized people to do the welding ( not everone can do so like laying carbon as seen in video ) oh yeah I didn't even add the raw metal material then + cnc machine time and billet chunks.

So unless your ****ing completly retarded.

Simply dont even reply and have a nice day and I hope you learn't something.

I know about carbon thanks to the automotive world.

It costs less then 100$ to make a carbon fibre hood yet they sell over 600$ each.

Imagine a high end bicycle.

And im done with this thread,have a nice day.
if you care PM me.

Seriously man you don't have ANY idea what you're talking about. NONE. Let's run through a few basics here:
- Carbon fibre costs a HELL of a lot more than ANY grade of aluminium, per unit weight.
- Carbon fibre is far more difficult to analyse using conventional FEA than aluminium. More time spent on it = more money.
- Carbon fibre is far more labour intensive than aluminium to construct a bicycle frame. You can't simply knock out parts in a couple of minutes each on a CNC mill, tight tolerances are harder to achieve, it requires many hours of manual labour on each frame just for the layup, then you have however many hours curing in the kiln.
- If you think "anyone can lay carbon" that's about as dumb as saying "anyone can weld" - anyone can do it ONCE THEY'VE BEEN TRAINED HOW TO DO IT PROPERLY. Take it from someone who has at least cursory experience with CF layup - you don't have a clue.

It costs "less than $100" to make a carbon fibre hood? Do you know what the total production cost of a front quarter panel for a Toyota Camry costs? $11.50au, or about $10us. Similarly or MORE complex part than a hood, made out of sheet steel, including the cost of painting and fitting to the car in the assembly line. If you damage one it costs about $450au to replace aftermarket.

Carbon fibre is NOT a cheap material to purchase or manufacture with, stop pretending you know everything about it when you haven't got even the most tenuous grasp of the very basics.


For everyone else, also worth noting that this is the guy who claimed the new Dorado was "exactly the same" as the old one.

[OGRipper]

stuff

I don't understand why you're getting so worked up about this, or why you're resorting to insults. But I suspect it's because what you think you know as fact is being carefully pulled apart piece-by-piece by more informed and respectful comments here, and your illusions about the durability and cost of carbon are being shattered in the same way you think a carbon bike will shatter if you even look at a rock while riding one.

As for that video: I once cast an aluminum eagle in 7th grade shop class and made a pen holder with it. (Yeah, it was pretty sweet ). Does that mean I can make high-end aluminum tubes the same way, and all these bike companies are just ripping me off when they talk about their fancy alloy blends, custom-drawn tubes, hydroforming, and butting?

[norbar]

I think he kinda shows what's the main problem with the carbon paranoia - he still thinks carbon bikes are being made by the same hacks that did it in the early days of mtb where the part "anyone can do it" was much closer to the truth though now it's as true as saying my friends father could weld my frame because he can repair car pedals with his welder...

[klunky]

I want to know if they will do an Alu version along side it like they do with other models.
would be neat to have the choice.

[TKCastle]

ZOMG teh Carbonz gonna brake on my gnurrr. HAHA. Classic!



Do you really think you can ride a dh bike so hard it's gonna do this?

YouTube - Sébastien Buemi tire suspension crash China Shanghai April 16 2010

YouTube - Sébastien Buemi tire suspension crash China Shanghai April 16 2010

The bike is sick. I want one.

[norbar]

ZOMG teh Carbonz gonna brake on my gnurrr. HAHA. Classic!



Do you really think you can ride a dh bike so hard it's gonna do this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQZrmBoRjKY


The bike is sick. I want one.

That vid ruins my plans to swap my brakes with a boat anchor chained to the top tube. Oh wait, my frame isn't carbon