The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section

[csermonet]

Udi, you running a Bos fork too? Do you have pics of your bike fully built up? I'm an ex Sunday rider but still love em ha, I'm still on a DW-link frame(DHR). If I had the funds I would love to spruce up a Sunday again. From the pic of your frame yours looks mighty fine. In regards to Bos, how are you liking the shock/fork? Is the Stoy a good match for the DW?

For anyone who is looking for linkage parts, I have 06 linkage plates and the 06 lower link. Posted pics on the previous page(249)

Another question for anyone who is running needle bearings in their shock eyelets... Is there a noticeable change in performance? I.e. are they worth it haha

[An0maly]

Hey I have a stock 06 frame, which came with a DHX. Just wondering if I can run a vivid with it, or will I need a new DW link? And does anyone have a link to one on the net I could purchase if so. Cheers.

[csermonet]

Pretty sure the 07+ link will be needed. Aka f7 linkage. I know when I was bringing my old Sunday back to life 2 years ago, there were several companies manufacturing those linkage kits but not sure about today. Very pricey too. I know some people dremeled their 06 red link to accommodate it. I have an 06 red link I'd sell relatively cheap if you wanted to try your hand at machining it to fit. I've seen pics somewhere of it, a little effort and research you should be able to find the pic

[hitar_potar]

Isn't the rwc kit only about $40? Am I missing something?

43, to be exact. And then there's the postage which is another 15-20. And then the changing of the bushes at the other end of the shock, which are to be custom made cause in order to put the Evolver air shock, i had to cut the lower link and now it's a little bit different than stock sizes.
All this, plus the regular maintenance of the shock, the brakes (which are way overdue), the fork, new tyres.... And it goes crazy. As we have a saying here in bulgaria: drop by drop, it becomes an ocean!

You can't use a bolt as a needle bearing inner race, it needs to be a precision ground component. Buy the kit.

My thoughts exactly. However, i'm still waiting on Enduro to answer my question if they can put a 14mm outer-diameter needle bearing in the kit instead of the 15mm one - Manitou's eyelets are smaller than Fox/Rock Shox/Elka/etc.

[Udi]

Since you're a pretty up-front guy (pointing out the useless cutouts - which indeed they are ), I'll share my opinions on both the air shock and needle bearings, having tried both in the past.

The air shock, while generally matching the leverage curve requirements of the Sunday, ultimately won't work as well as a coil shock. It covers the end-of-stroke requirements by providing progression (which works well with the Sunday's linear ending stroke), however what I haven't discussed much here before is the Sunday's beginning stroke - which is not as progressive as it should be. This means that the initial stroke does not move particularly easily, and while it's still better than many bikes out there, it can result in harshness on initial contact with square edged bumps if shock setup isn't carefully considered.

The problem with most air shocks is that they are quite firm initially due to the nature of the design, and also have a significant amount of additional stiction from the air seals. These shortcomings would be overcome in a frame with strong initial progression / high leverage ratio at the beginning of stroke (V10, Turner DHR, etc) however the Sunday does not offer this. In my opinion it has just enough to work well with a coil shock.

Onto the needle bearings. Having run them for some time (upper only), they started pitting relatively quickly and eating into the inner race. If you aren't riding very often they might last a while, but I destroyed them in about 2 weeks of lift riding. They do feel nice otherwise, but by running an air shock you kill off so much sensitivity that the net effect of adding a needle bearing to it is going to be relatively small. It's like adding 1kg to your bike somewhere and being excited about removing 50g somewhere else, the net effect is a loss.

So, my suggestion (as always, for this frame) is to run an RC4, as it provides the end-stroke progression required without the initial stroke harshness of an air shock. It's the best upgrade you can make to the frame after angled headset cups.

However, if you must follow your current path and just want an answer, BOS shocks use 14mm OD needle bearings and they also make hardware that can be made to work with the Sunday upper link. They will be expensive but will probably fit the Manitou shock, if Enduro ones can't be found. Alternatively, you can also enlarge the Manitou eyelet ID if you have the appropriate tooling, so it will accept normal Fox-size hardware. I've done this in the past on a Swinger shock with success.

[Udi]

Udi, you running a Bos fork too? Do you have pics of your bike fully built up? I'm an ex Sunday rider but still love em ha, I'm still on a DW-link frame(DHR). If I had the funds I would love to spruce up a Sunday again. From the pic of your frame yours looks mighty fine. In regards to Bos, how are you liking the shock/fork? Is the Stoy a good match for the DW? Another question for anyone who is running needle bearings in their shock eyelets... Is there a noticeable change in performance? I.e. are they worth it haha

I'm much like yourself - moved onto an Evil Undead a little while ago, but still find the Sunday quite intriguing as it was far ahead of its time and changed the downhill game in a lot of ways!

I don't run the BOS fork, but have ridden a few - they work well, but so do most top-end forks these days. The Stoy is a terrible match for the Sunday and I wouldn't recommend it, it really needs some frame progression. I also felt the main piston significantly lacked flow and ended up customizing it a little (enlarging porting and revalving to suit), which isn't particularly impressive for such an expensive shock.

Might be better in a more progressive frame, but that doesn't excuse the not-so-perfect porting and valving. The shock chassis is brilliant in terms of quality and sliding friction / tolerances though - very smooth and stiction-less.

See above post regarding needle bearings. Dug up a pic of the old girl for you, any of your new DHR?

[hitar_potar]

Since you're a pretty up-front guy (pointing out the useless cutouts - which indeed they are ), I'll share my opinions on both the air shock and needle bearings, having tried both in the past.

....

Wow, thanx for the detailed answer - i really didn't expect it!
What air shock have you tryed before? Was it an Evolver ISX-6? What you're saying about air shocks is generaly correct, but my experience with the Evolver is on the contrary. I feel it's pretty damn too active at the begining stroke. I've tryed putting more air-pressure as well as putting the low compression dial at max - still too active. As for progresivity, yes, it is matching the Sunday perfectly. Only the too-active initial stroke is what's bugging me - i have my eyes set on either some tuning regarding that (different shims), or using 7.5W oil instead of the 5W - to see how different it would become. My Sunday came with a Vivid Coil shock which was probably better at the begining stroke, but i had to choose which shock of the two i had to say bye bye to, so i chose to keep the Evolver - i'm used to its type of working, find it pretty easy to tinker with it, and it's definitely lighter than a coil shock. But your words make me think. :?
The needle bearings - i thought they last way more than regular bushes. This was my idea for using one, as said i don't really need a boost in performance of my rear end - the Evolver is good enough for now. And no, i wouldn't enlarge the eyelet of the Manitou shock - i can find the appropriate tooling for the job, i can even find a friend-professional to do it for me for free. But am usually staying away from such actions if i can find a more safe alternative. Will check the BOS hardware to see what they offer.
As for different shocks - i have heard people talk about the RC4 on the Sunday before. Would you recomend it over an Elka Stage 5, or, let's say, a Double Barrel Coil and Double Barrel Air? I was thinking of keeping the Evolver for a while and if possible, let it go later and have a try on a DVO shock when they get available (meaning at least another year probably till that ).

P.S. Are you the one that created that Sunday Fan page on facebook?
Just recently i found my Sunday posted there (a red one with a carbon Dorado 2009 up front).

[csermonet]

Udi - thanks for the response. And yes here is how it sits right now. Got a few things in the mail, Goodridge lines, Renthal Kevlar grips, small stuff. 38.5lbs

[the_maxis_233]

Need a little help, Anyone can tell how remove this two bearings?


thanks

[csermonet]

You ever removed pivot bearings before? You will need a press

[the_maxis_233]

received the frame a few days is my first sunday, i removed the other bearings without problems

[SLOPE]

I'm amazed that this thread continues to go on.
Someone should start making Iron Horse's again.

[csermonet]

How easy we're they to remove? If the bearings slid right out by hand then that means the pivots are ovalized and the frame is ruined beyond repair. As far as I know, no frames pivot bearings, weather it's a xc bike or DH should be able to be removed easily by hand

[Rocko]

24mm socket (it just have to be enough large to slide in the bearing) to the out side, a long screw (M8 or M10) through the bering and the socket and a nut. This will pull out the bearing gently whitout distroying anything. But first you have to remove those bolts.

[ritche]

Hey, How would you set up a sunday frame for enduro/gravity racing?

I have spare fox 36 van fork. What shock to use? coil or an air shock? 36 or 34 teeth chain ring? I will use 10speed 11-36 cassette, stock HA, 65 deg.

or this is a bad idea? (weight, will use lighter parts and wheelset)

since this is a dw linked frame, will it be comparable to a 6 point, or an ibis mojo HD in terms of climbing efficiency?