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  1. #271
    Turbo Monkey iRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattmatt86 View Post
    But do you think all the bike companies want you to be able to rebuild your 5 year old frame? Some yes, but the majority don't. They want you to go out and buy a new bike (650B of course).
    Who says I am not buying a new frame from them AND keep the old bike rolling?
    N+1 son, N+1!!!

  2. #272
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    I don't have an opinion on wheel size until I ride 650b a bit, but it's been mentioned before that the 26" wheel wasn't developed because it happened to be most optimized for trail riding. It just happened to be the wheel size already on the bikes that were converted into mtn bikes by some crazy hippies and became the standard. That doesn't mean it sucks, it just means that's why we started with 26.

    I was told by some factory workers here in Taiwan, that the 700c road wheel actually owes its existence to oil drums. Since they were already round it was easy to cut the old drums into strips and with a little reworking, voila, a steel rim. Why 700cc? Because that's what size the drums were.

    I have no idea if this is actually true, but it worth considering for a moment how our 'standards' are developed in the first place. Some evolve over time through testing and their own merits, others exist through pure happenstance.

    Some of you planning for the wheelapocalypse need to take some deep breaths before you start building your bomb shelters.
    Last edited by General Lee; 12-10-2012 at 08:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dox View Post
    Lee you are always right.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbar View Post

    btw. What are you doing in Tw. Is it a permanent industry job?
    My girlfriend works for the US Dept of Agricuture. She's posted as the deputy cheif of the taiwan office for the next few years so I'm along for the ride. I do a little here and there for Vital and such (hence the Banshee factory feature last week), but nothing official with the bike industry. I'm in Taipei, most of the industry is mostly 2hrs-4hrs South of here in Taichung, Kaohsiung, or Tianan (Carbon/Hodaka).

    I'll probably resume my regular profession as a math or history teacher at one of the international schools next year but for the moment I'm basically under kept man status, which is actually not all that bad.
    Last edited by General Lee; 12-10-2012 at 08:16 AM.
    http://www.leetrumporephotography.com/

    Quote Originally Posted by Dox View Post
    Lee you are always right.

  4. #274
    Monkey VMARTINEZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice View Post
    The new S&M Holmes 22" is already selling faster than they can build them.
    I am waiting on a S&M Widowmaker in 22" wheels.
    Chrome with 48 spoke wheels.
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  5. #275
    Turbo Monkey mattmatt86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iRider View Post
    Who says I am not buying a new frame from them AND keep the old bike rolling?
    N+1 son, N+1!!!
    Ahhhhh yes, I forgot the equation.

  6. #276
    Turbo Monkey chillindrdude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
    My girlfriend works for the US Dept of Agricuture. She's posted as the deputy cheif of the taiwan office for the next few years so I'm along for the ride. I do a little here and there for Vital and such (hence the Banshee factory feature last week), but nothing official with the bike industry. I'm in Taipei, most of the industry is mostly 2hrs-4hrs South of here in Taichung, Kaohsiung, or Tianan (Carbon/Hodaka).

    I'll probably resume my regular profession as a math or history teacher at one of the international schools next year but for the moment I'm basically under kept man status, which is actually not all that bad.
    I was just in taiwan a few weeks ago visiting family. The hispeed rail makes it super convenient to zip between taipei and tainan,provided you have some sort of transpo at the stations. Have you learned the language at all? Do you own a scooter? It still amazes me that more people dont get flatten by cars riding those things.
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  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillindrdude View Post
    I was just in taiwan a few weeks ago visiting family. The hispeed rail makes it super convenient to zip between taipei and tainan,provided you have some sort of transpo at the stations. Have you learned the language at all? Do you own a scooter? It still amazes me that more people dont get flatten by cars riding those things.
    HSR and the MRT are fantastic. Every city in America should have it this good. Now if they would just make it easier for bringing bikes on board....

    Scooters have right of way in all situations even when they are driving like a mix of Bubba and Andretti with 2 kids, a dog, and 3 propane tanks on the back. Flattenings are common.
    http://www.leetrumporephotography.com/

    Quote Originally Posted by Dox View Post
    Lee you are always right.

  8. #278
    Turbo Monkey iRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
    Some of you planning for the wheelapocalypse need to take some deep breaths before you start building your bomb shelters.
    Hey, I am not at all against a new wheel size. What gets my goat is that the industry decided that 26" is dead (or at least the comments from a bunch of 'insiders' suggest this). If the new wheel size is really so much better then it will eventually take over. But the industry is not convinced it will, this is why they have to kill 26 to force the switch. Or they don't want to/can't take the financial risk to produce bikes for all 3 wheel sizes? Either way, it is not a natural evolution like 29 was initially.

    BTW: did anyone now finally show some real data which wheels are the fastest? I mean multiple tracks, freelap setup, SRM cranks, nearly identical bike setups, 10 runs on each, average times normalized to power output etc.????? Like, scientific approach, you know?

  9. #279
    just shake your rump Sandwich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Lee View Post

    Some of you planning for the wheelapocalypse need to take some deep breaths before you start building your bomb shelters.


    Quote Originally Posted by iRider View Post

    BTW: did anyone now finally show some real data which wheels are the fastest? I mean multiple tracks, freelap setup, SRM cranks, nearly identical bike setups, 10 runs on each, average times normalized to power output etc.????? Like, scientific approach, you know?
    Closest we have is anecdotal and dirt's test track, where I thought a guy posted a best time on a 29er.

    I do think it would be neat to see a scientific test done, but I think a lot of wheel size selection comes back to personal preference. I'd be on a 29er if I rode california-style rolling trails with lots of miles. Here on the east coast I really like my 650b as it gets me up over the football size rocks every 5 feet but doesn't look anything in the turns. If i were riding something smooth AND fast, I'd stick with 26. I tried a 29er out here but it didn't work for me, it took too much muscle to push it through switchbacks. 26s got hung up on rocks. The right choice for ME was 650b.

  10. #280
    Turbo Monkey SuspectDevice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iRider View Post
    Hey, I am not at all against a new wheel size. What gets my goat is that the industry decided that 26" is dead (or at least the comments from a bunch of 'insiders' suggest this). If the new wheel size is really so much better then it will eventually take over. But the industry is not convinced it will, this is why they have to kill 26 to force the switch. Or they don't want to/can't take the financial risk to produce bikes for all 3 wheel sizes? Either way, it is not a natural evolution like 29 was initially.

    BTW: did anyone now finally show some real data which wheels are the fastest? I mean multiple tracks, freelap setup, SRM cranks, nearly identical bike setups, 10 runs on each, average times normalized to power output etc.????? Like, scientific approach, you know?
    26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.


    re testing:

    The Scott team did extensive pre-season testing on wheelsize exactly as you describe.
    Some riders were faster on 29", some on 650b.

    Nobody even bothered testing 26" wheels because none of the riders were interested in riding them.

    World Cup winner Nino Schurter chose 650b- It allowed him to keep the same contact points as his 26" and road bikes while having the advantages of a faster wheel that works better than 26" and is more fun to ride/manourverable than 29" wheels.

  11. #281
    Turbo Monkey Hacktastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
    If pay someone an excessive amount of money for a custom fabricated anything my substantial outlay of cash does not mean I'll have, or should have access to spare anything. DH bikes are bespoke items that often see revisions on 90% of all fabricated parts from one model to the next, your 450 does not. You want bikes to be cheap, light, dependable, innovative, and supported beyond obsolescence? Based on what whimsical formula?
    Yes. I believe that is a completely reasonable expectation. It requires LOTS more up-front investment and time into long term testing and development, so incremental changes aren't necessary. The refinements of downhill bikes that has been seen in the last decade shouldn't have taken more than a couple generations to achieve in my opinion. Not 6 or 7. With longer generation lifecycles, you can afford to have more inventory of spares laying around, and over a 10 year cycle, it should save money because the R&D wouldn't be as constant and repetitive and the tooling costs would obviously decrease. Seems it would make things better for everyone if someone were to bite that initial bullet.

    It's a major dis-service to the customer to not have parts available to keep their expensive toy running for years to come. Having to retire a bike that expensive because there's just no more parts available to keep it running 3 or 4 years later is just insane to me. These bikes are modular and user-serviceable for a reason, and it's absurd that their parent industry can't support that.

    Boutique brands are a little different, but with them come some perks. My last bikes have been made by Frank The Welder. If I call him up and need a spare part that he doesn't have...well, he'll fvcking make me one. He's cool like that, and that's why I buy his bikes, among lots of other reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
    I don't have an opinion on wheel size until I ride 650b a bit, but it's been mentioned before that the 26" wheel wasn't developed because it happened to be most optimized for trail riding. It just happened to be the wheel size already on the bikes that were converted into mtn bikes by some crazy hippies and became the standard. That doesn't mean it sucks, it just means that's why we started with 26.

    I was told by some factory workers here in Taiwan, that the 700c road wheel actually owes its existence to oil drums. Since they were already round it was easy to cut the old drums into strips and with a little reworking, voila, a steel rim. Why 700cc? Because that's what size the drums were.

    I have no idea if this is actually true, but it worth considering for a moment how our 'standards' are developed in the first place. Some evolve over time through testing and their own merits, others exist through pure happenstance.

    Some of you planning for the wheelapocalypse need to take some deep breaths before you start building your bomb shelters.
    I recently learned why train rails are spaced apart the distance that they are. It made me LOL. It's the comfortable distance between two horses asses. Or the centerline, but from the viewpoint of the person in the coach - the horses ass.

    Roads and transport routes were burned in at the distance apart between two horses pulling carriages, and the rails were laid on these existing routes at that spacing, and the vehicles were then designed around that.

    Today that dictates how aerospace companies and heavy industrial companies have to make certain structural components for rockets or things like the space shuttle that need to be transported by train. The designers are pounding their heads against the wall trying to size things to fit this seemingly arbitrary cargo width, dictated by the size of a horses ass 100 some odd years ago.
    "It won't happen again. I can promise you that. Willie here has low blood sugar. That's all."

  12. #282
    Turbo Monkey atrokz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice View Post
    26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.


    re testing:

    The Scott team did extensive pre-season testing on wheelsize exactly as you describe.
    Some riders were faster on 29", some on 650b.

    Nobody even bothered testing 26" wheels because none of the riders were interested in riding them.

    World Cup winner Nino Schurter chose 650b- It allowed him to keep the same contact points as his 26" and road bikes while having the advantages of a faster wheel that works better than 26" and is more fun to ride/manourverable than 29" wheels.
    Bear in mind you're using a UCI XC team as an example...

    XC, racing....

    Not very comparable to what most of us ride.

    Also, some DH and FR guys experiemented with the different wheel sizes as well. As far as we know, only one (logan B.) actually did well.

    Also, I'll just jump on my supertouch if the terrain gets as lame as a UCI XC course.
    Last edited by atrokz; 12-10-2012 at 11:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by golgothan
    Sources are for rivers, this is the internet, we make things up here.

  13. #283
    Turbo Monkey norbar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice View Post
    26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.


    re testing:

    The Scott team did extensive pre-season testing on wheelsize exactly as you describe.
    Some riders were faster on 29", some on 650b.

    Nobody even bothered testing 26" wheels because none of the riders were interested in riding them.

    World Cup winner Nino Schurter chose 650b- It allowed him to keep the same contact points as his 26" and road bikes while having the advantages of a faster wheel that works better than 26" and is more fun to ride/manourverable than 29" wheels.
    I think you missed the point. No one here claims 29ers and 650b is bad for xc. It is good and it works there. The point is everything that requires stiffness, agility and durability.



    @Lee I'm yet to go but friends from a friendly company go every year and they are surprised how fast the country develops. Though it is a strange mix of high tech with the old ways (what's with everyone chewing red tabacco?). I've heard the riding scene is pretty minimal. Still it's a good place to catch an industry job if you are willing to do it. Especially if you learn the language. Best luck on the trip. Post riding photos when you find some trails.
    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd View Post
    Bacon is a universal. Like duct tape, zip ties, or a bigger hammer it can fix anything!

  14. #284
    Turbo Monkey iRider's Avatar
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    [quote=SuspectDevice;3851405]26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.

    So were all those 500,000+ 26" bikes in 2011 sold over the internet? Just curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice View Post
    re testing:

    The Scott team did extensive pre-season testing on wheelsize exactly as you describe.
    Some riders were faster on 29", some on 650b.
    And why don't we see the numbers? The companies are normally not that shy to brag about how many % stiffer, lighter, faster, moar shimmed, moar jaw anything they want to push is. A lot of magazines run stories on test sessions but never show the results of the featured tests. Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice View Post
    Nobody even bothered testing 26" wheels because none of the riders were interested in riding them.
    So how do they know that they are not faster than anything else? What you 'think' is or 'feels' the fastest is not always what actually is the fastest. I learned that quickly after I started to use a stop watch to time myself.

  15. #285
    Turbo Monkey norbar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iRider View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SuspectDevice View Post
    26" WHEELS NO LONGER SELL ON THE SHOWROOM FLOOR.
    So were all those 500,000+ 26" bikes in 2011 sold over the internet? Just curious.
    I think the problem is what I mentioned. A lot of the companies assume that if they are asked a lot or there is a lot talk about something than it must be a big group of people. Also some companies probably lost a bit of dough by not jumping on the last few new standards so now they want to jump on the first thing possible. Even if the idea isn't really that good.
    Last edited by norbar; 12-10-2012 at 11:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd View Post
    Bacon is a universal. Like duct tape, zip ties, or a bigger hammer it can fix anything!

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