The future of 4X?

[JaredGraves]

Just been talking with Sven/DonDon about potential scheduling changes that could be made (would need to be approved by UCI) that would help photographers spend more time on the hill and therefore more media coverage for the events?

Does 4X at world cups need to be held over 3 days? could we have a more condensed 2 day schedule? he suggested maybe thursday/friday, personally I think that would negatively affect people coming to watch racing as they have to work fridays ect etc, in Fort william 2 years ago we raced on Friday and it was terrible. But im keen to hear what others think.

I think it would need to be a friday/Saturday approach, which is still pretty full on but I think times of practice could be changed a little. Does anbody really think that DH practice needs to go for up to 7 hours a day. I don't think I started DH practice once this year within the first 2 hours of practice starting, I know neither of my teammates (Sam Blenkinsop and Aaron Gwin) did either. I dont think too many riders would mind if practice time was cut back a little. Nothing too drastic, but surely the 9am-415 pm practice is far more than enough. Considering 4X only gets 1.5 hours.

7 hours of DH is not necessary. and maybe some more DH guys might give 4X a go with their newfound spare time? Also they wouldnt be as tired from hour after hour of DH practice.

Back in the day at Norbas we only got 2 hours a day practice, and it was in most cases enough time.

So maybe DH could start a little later and maybe have morning 4X practice, or maybe DH could finish a little earlier, and 4x could start a little earlier, therefore the photo guys wouldn't be over snapping shots for the day and wanting to get a meal, and the media center wouldn't be closed.


Dragging out 4X over 3 days is another thing the riders hate. Especially the 4X only guys (which is pretty much everyone now) as they sit around all day, bored out of their brains, then get a 90 minute practice session, the days are very long and drawn out for the riders that way, and doing it 3 days in a row is very draining.

Are the masses of potentially unneccesary DH pratice is hurting 4X. Theres only so many hours in the day, and the current schedule is wasting many of those hours, especially the morning hours, with DH practice that very few people are doing.

I guess what im saying is, surely the UCI could plan a better Schedule, that would be more time efficient for everyone, and not leave 4X (and the photographers shooting 4X) out in the dark.....literally! It could make the media peoples jobs more time friendly and less busy, which could only help them to do a more thorough job all around, and help all forms of coverage for the sport.

Just keen to hear what others think.

[TheTruth]

I for one feel that 4x should be held on sunday afternoon. There is only one dh run. If you are tired after that 1 DH run, you probably aren't racing Pro. I could easily start the day off with a dh run, and finish with 4X. PRactice for everything could be on saturday. 4 hours for DH, and 4 hours for 4X practice.

[buckoW]

Originally Posted by Mudstud

Your definition of the term "4cross track" seems to be a wee bit different from mine. According to my definition there has been one 4cross track built for permanent use in Switzerland so far, in Zermatt. Not exactly a place for spontaneous sessions, is it?

The 4X track in Les Crosets which was used for the Swiss Champs was never taken down. It is over grown now but one line still works. On a DH bike the overgrown grass corners are pretty fun even. You can drive to the end of the track so access is not a problem but it seems like all the good Swiss 4X racers are Swiss German and live too far away to take advantage of the track.

There will be a new 4X track built in Champery next summer for Worlds. I hope they can find a better spot this time.

[Mudstud]

Originally Posted by Chris Roberts

Guys please feel free to use the www.fourcross-alliance.com group or forum to talk about Swiss tracks.

We would like to get a European 4X series going in the near future (2011 as nearly all the world cups are in Europe in 2010) and it would be good to choose from the best tracks in each European country.

A European 4cross series? Mint!
That's exactly the next step, filling the void between the national and the Worldcup level. And of course more international races mean more chances to score UCI points, more opportunities to go head to head to other riders and by doing so improving the respective rider's skills.

@ GoBig

So far, the European championships have often been at strange places, like the one in Greece. This year, it made sense as the EC were held within a weeks time of Maribor's Worldcup, also in Slovenia. But then came the weather...

The organizers of the iXS European Downhill Cup (German Racement GmbH and Swiss iXS Sports Division) have inked a deal with the UEC: The European Championships (both DH and 4Cross) will be up to them to organize from 2011 to 2013, and they have the clear goal to improve the status and the prestige of these continental championships - so the best riders are competing.

By the way, sorry for offtopic: The iXS European Downhill Cup is coming to England for the 1st time in 2010, with the series starting in Innerleithen.

@ buckoW

Right, the Crosets-course always delivered good racing. It was even a bit DHish, definitely no "first-corner leader takes it all" course.

But I remember it was pretty exposed to the notoriously fast-changing weather as well. One year the championship race got cancelled as the course disappeared in the clouds, and another year it was just pouring down all the time, but the racing went on nevertheless.

[slyfink]

I'm going to throw this out there, but I think that the reason I like 4x action so much is that it reminds me of my regular x-c rides with my buddies where we're often jockying for position and throwing the elbows and trying passing moves on the downhills... it's all in good fun, and every once in a while I'll pull off a fun pass. If the races could somehow channel that bit of fun into it's format, then I think it'll relate to more people.

Anyways, that's the reason I like 4x... I'm looking forward to next year already!

[Cru_Jones]

Originally Posted by Mudstud

@ Cru_Jones
Apart from that, you seem to have missed me saying that I would welcome three 4cross tracks and approxiamtely 30 dual tracks to be built, that's how I would judge the demand in Switzerland.

No I did not miss it, and I totally agree. So maybe we just talk past each other.

[Salty4X]

Originally Posted by slyfink

I'm going to throw this out there, but I think that the reason I like 4x action so much is that it reminds me of my regular x-c rides with my buddies where we're often jockying for position and throwing the elbows and trying passing moves on the downhills... it's all in good fun, and every once in a while I'll pull off a fun pass. If the races could somehow channel that bit of fun into it's format, then I think it'll relate to more people.

Anyways, that's the reason I like 4x... I'm looking forward to next year already!

Add a few corner officials that have a bit of common sense towards what classifies as "rubbing is racing" and what goes beyond that, and I think you got it. You'd still have the crashes and take outs (fans excitement), but the rider responsible for illegal actions would get dropped. Now I know that there has been some disqualifications over the past few years, but I feel most were questionable and there should be tons more calls on deliberate take outs. That is just one, but a huge part, of what needs to change in the sport n my eyes. Riders stay healthier and there are fewer questionable calls.

[JaredGraves]

Questionable official calls were another thing mentioned at the 4X alliance metting, with the view to have more clear cut rules and better inform offiicals about these rules, and have more consistant calls on whats fair and what isnt.

The UCI realizes this also and it got better at the end of the season, and i'm sure its another thing that will get better for next year and beyond.

Theres no doubt that theres still some weird rules that are going around also that need to be looked at, almost all DSQ calls this year were made for putting wheels out of your lane (the white lines out of the start) and cutting flags. Its fair to make DSQ decisions on these if they affect the outcome of the race, or negatively impact another rider, but some leniency needs to be made as well for cases that are minor and don't affect the outcome (like anneke Beerton in the semi final at world champs)

[Ithnu]

Originally Posted by JaredGraves

. Its fair to make DSQ decisions on these if they affect the outcome of the race, or negatively impact another rider, but some leniency needs to be made as well for cases that are minor and don't affect the outcome

I agree, at Snowmass one guy got DQ'd that should have been allowed to advance. He went over a flag to avoid running over (he would have literally gone over one guy's legs) the two guys who crashed. He ended up 1st but would have got the same result anyway, I was behind him and the other two were really tangled up, they never would have caught either of us.

[rockofullr]

First off, thanks to all the big names who take the time to post here and make us little guys feel in the loop.

I think it's also important to consider the perspective of an amateur (read: I race for fun) racer.

I live in the east bay, Cali, and I don't have the money to travel to many races. When I do travel to a race it is a DH race.

I am a fan of both 4x and DS and last winter I bought a Yeti DJ to race at my local track (Sand Hill had 4x and DS tracks). Come racing season and I discover that Sand Hill bike park is closed permanently. I don't even know where the next closest location that hosts gated racing is, so now I just ride my Yeti on dirt jumps. I do know that there are 2 BMX race tracks within 45 min of me.

From my perspective the future of 4x (and gated gravity racing in general) here in nor-cal is pretty grim. Which isn't good considering that nor-cal is the birth place of the MTB.

I know it's been said before but in my opinion the most important thing isn't the WC it's the local races and gated racing is failing in this department. We need more people like the guys at VeloPro Cyclery (props to Ed, Mitch and crew) in Santa Barbra who took it upon them selves to build a DS course at Ellings Park and hold races on it.

[JaredGraves]

I think Ive said Pretty much everything I wanted to say in the posts in this thread, hopefully it's done some good, and hopefully this will be my last post.

So I just wanted, once more, to sum up a few things, before I can hopefully, leave this be.


- I completely agree that grassroots racing is hugely important, it would be extremely ignorant to think otherwise. Rockofullr said that in norcal the gated racing scene is looking pretty bad, while this sucks, there are also many areas where grassroots level 4X is doing really well, for example, theres currently new tracks popping up all over Australia right now. Tracks dont build themselves, so if your really passionate about having tracks to ride, maybe it's time to step up yourself.

- On the topic of course accessability, What I love about 4X is that you take skills from DH (bike handling skills, cornering, agility, agression ect) and BMX (precision, Strength, head to head racing, smarts ect) and thats what makes a perfect base to race 4X, so you dont always need a 4X track nearby to ride everyday if you have those things. of course having a nearby 4X track will always help to get people pumped on 4X, but if your serious about racing, its not vital.

I know guys who are into DH that have no nearby tracks to ride, so they make do with what they have to train on, moto, xc, dirtjumps, and the only time they get to ride DH is when they travel to races, and they love it!

- 4X bikes are esentially the exact same thing as Slalom bikes and are very similar to Dirt Jump bikes, atleast 95% of all serious DH riders also own some form of hardtail/short travel bike already, so saying sales would increase and help the industry, if DS was to be brought back in, is BS.

- Slalom racing has failed at world cup level already, Eric Carter/BCvan has been at the very top, through the sports prime, and mentioned numerous times in this thread that Slalom was a poor side show that was seen by many as being very monotonous and boring to watch, especially to the non enthusiast. 4X has far more appeal to attract viewers and potential competitors, as every race can be different, you never know how a race is going to play out.

I get comments from non bike riding friends that they think the DH is super boring to watch, you see rider after rider hit the exact same section, in almost the exact same way. To me (obvioulsy) DH is rad, Im very passionate about DH, and anything MTB, but they all say that 4X is more entertaining to watch, as anything can happen at anytime. if DH is your passion, then of course you will enjoy watching it, but to the general viewer (on TV) dont kid yourself, its pretty boring. NASCAR keeps getting brought up, but it is a really good example of what im trying to say. To the passionate follwer its the bees knees, and is no doubt, rad fun to drive. but to most outsiders watching it on TV, it sucks!

- Top DH riders will not race DS at world cups, they all know the value of putting 100% into their pet event (DH) and would continue to do that. Maybe some would do slalom for a while, then realize it is hurting their DH performance and they would return to just doing DH, Long Term participation simply wouldn't happen. It would also drive away most of the new blood that 4X is currently getting from ex BMXers (highly skilled riders that deserve your respect) and we would then be left in a far worse situation.

- Any top DH rider only wants Slalom to be brought back in because they never did any good at 4X when they raced it, the idea of something more familiar seems appealing to them, as they feel they have a better chance of doing well at it. So what do you do then? Give them their way and forget about the new breed of 4X rider that is currently emerging? It's called evolution people....if sports didn't evolve we would still be competing in chariot racing and such.

- Many top 4X racers have put their thoughtS into this thread, they have all found out about it (Theres links to this thread on loads of other websites/rider websites now) the 100% lack of any top DH racer posting here saying they would compete in world cup DS speaks volumes on how passoinate they are about DS....they don't really care at all. Like Boom Boom said earlier, the DS vs 4X meeting at the maribor world cup in 2007. Votes for 4X....approx 90, votes for DS....2 For the specific DH guys, 4X or DS, they really aren't concerened.


- The DS in favour of 4X vibe is coming from just the US. 4X is gaining acceptance and growth from every other country. I suppose part of the reason I've been a part of this thread so regularly lately is that I ride for a US company, and I want to see 4X (which as ive stated, I firmly beleive has a very bright future) reach its potential.

- There was no 4X negativity coming from the US when they were the dominant force. It has really only began with the retirement of Lopes, the last great US 4X racer of that time. Its easy to blame other factors when things arent so rosy.

- I have to say also (big thanks to Spomer @ Vital for taking time/interest to let me say my bit) that a lot of the negativity has come from the media, the human race has a natural instinct to follow the leader, a couple key US media people decided they didnt like 4X, so they make a song and dance about it, and it influences peoples decisions. 4X is the the way gated racing is going, so wouldn't it be in your best interest to put your personal feelings aside and support it? if you guys are all so passionate about MTB why are you constantly trying to bring a part of it down? Its something different...yes, something your not used to, but like I said, its evolution.

- 4X is still in it's infancy, there are certainly growing pains involved, but the general feeling from riders and anyone who closely follwed 4X this past season, is that it is on the up, partcipation is up, Courses are getting more figured out and racing is getting better, There is still a ways to go, no doubt, but it undeniably has potential to get much bigger.

- Passing, tracks definately need more aspects that reward rider skill, Ive mentioned many times what I would like to see in a track, but its not as simple as building whatever you like at World Cup level, there are many restrictions on where and track can be built, so dont go looking for the track builders blood, But in some cases, I think a bit more thought to what will make more exciting racing still needs to be adressed.

- I think at times also people expect too much from 4X, Kyle Ebbett just today brought up a good point at Vital...that if you are the fastest out of the start, and you can handle the pressure of holding off 3 guys trying to pass you, shouldnt you deserve to win? Competing in a sport where you can lose a race when you are the fastest rider in your race, and make no mistakes, doesnt make for a sport that people will be lining up to compete in. There is more than enough luck involved in 4X how it is, tracks need to be developed, where rider skill and preparation is rewarded more than luck, just like DH !

- 4X, in Europe especially, is receiving far more outside media and TV coverage than DH is, proving that it has huge potential for growth through outside interest. This is the type of media attention a sport needs to truly grow, when a sport feeds mostly off itself, it will always remain small.

- gates, whatever the gate, the guys that put in the training will have an edge, whenever I hear that people think BMX guys have the advantage coz of the gate, and something needs to change I get pretty angry.

Lets break this down a bit

A gate serves one purpose... it's a consistant thing for all the riders racing, for the race to start at the exact same time for everyone. I 100% believe the current UCI/random gate system is by far the fairest way to start a race...why? Because its easily accesable to everyone, at any local BMX track, or even for purchase for yourself if you are serious. No other form of start system imaginable is as easy to practice.

People often complain that BMX riders have an advantage on this start system, which is true, but only because they put in hours of training and practice for this start. If you truly want to be good at 4X you should maybe think about making an effort to get to the local track on gate nights and making your start better.

I ALWAYS used to blame poor 4X results on my complete lack of ability to do a gate start, I used to get absolutely hosed! But as my interest in 4X grew, I took some action, I practiced as often as I could, I worked as hard as I could to get a good gate, to be competitive, to the point now where I am 100% confident that nobody is going to be ahead of me after the snap. Its like any other skill on a bike, it takes time, but anyone can learn.

The people that complain that the current gate system needs changing need to really think if they are doing themselves any favours with their race preparation. I still hear world cup 4X guys saying they can't do a gate, and think the system needs to change, but they are the guys that never do any gate practice, they will spend all day practicing all the fun parts of 4X, but because gate practice isn't fun, they forget about it. Gate practice isnt the most enjoyable part of training, but if you are serious about doing well its vital. Its no different to expecting to do well at the top level of DH racing with never doing intervals/fitness work. Maybe a very select few randomly gifted freaks can, but it's far from realistic. As the saying goes, You only get out what you put in. It blows my mind that guys are racing world cups and complain when they are getting waxed out of the start, but dont want to do anything to help themselves.

In summary, this 4X negativity is coming only from the US, and in large part i see that as coming from the media and MTB figures across the country. Obviously 4X isn't their personal cup of tea, but if they were truly professional about their jobs, wouldn't they do all they can to help grow all aspects of MTB ,instead of letting their persoanal feelings get in the way, and bring it down.

[rosenamedpoop]

Just listened to the Vital interview about this thread.

Jared, every time I hear or see interviews like this I'm impressed. You're a real stand up guy. I admire you're integrity, honesty, and that you're so damn humble!






.

[Boom Boom]

Originally Posted by JaredGraves

I think Ive said Pretty much everything I wanted to say in the posts in this thread, hopefully it's done some good, and hopefully this will be my last post.

So I just wanted, once more, to sum up a few things, before I can hopefully, leave this be.


- I completely agree that grassroots racing is hugely important, it would be extremely ignorant to think otherwise. Rockofullr said that in norcal the gated racing scene is looking pretty bad, while this sucks, there are also many areas where grassroots level 4X is doing really well, for example, theres currently new tracks popping up all over Australia right now. Tracks dont build themselves, so if your really passionate about having tracks to ride, maybe it's time to step up yourself.

- On the topic of course accessability, What I love about 4X is that you take skills from DH (bike handling skills, cornering, agility, agression ect) and BMX (precision, Strength, head to head racing, smarts ect) and thats what makes a perfect base to race 4X, so you dont always need a 4X track nearby to ride everyday if you have those things. of course having a nearby 4X track will always help to get people pumped on 4X, but if your serious about racing, its not vital.

I know guys who are into DH that have no nearby tracks to ride, so they make do with what they have to train on, moto, xc, dirtjumps, and the only time they get to ride DH is when they travel to races, and they love it!

- 4X bikes are esentially the exact same thing as Slalom bikes and are very similar to Dirt Jump bikes, atleast 95% of all serious DH riders also own some form of hardtail/short travel bike already, so saying sales would increase and help the industry, if DS was to be brought back in, is BS.

- Slalom racing has failed at world cup level already, Eric Carter/BCvan has been at the very top, through the sports prime, and mentioned numerous times in this thread that Slalom was a poor side show that was seen by many as being very monotonous and boring to watch, especially to the non enthusiast. 4X has far more appeal to attract viewers and potential competitors, as every race can be different, you never know how a race is going to play out.

I get comments from non bike riding friends that they think the DH is super boring to watch, you see rider after rider hit the exact same section, in almost the exact same way. To me (obvioulsy) DH is rad, Im very passionate about DH, and anything MTB, but they all say that 4X is more entertaining to watch, as anything can happen at anytime. if DH is your passion, then of course you will enjoy watching it, but to the general viewer (on TV) dont kid yourself, its pretty boring. NASCAR keeps getting brought up, but it is a really good example of what im trying to say. To the passionate follwer its the bees knees, and is no doubt, rad fun to drive. but to most outsiders watching it on TV, it sucks!

- Top DH riders will not race DS at world cups, they all know the value of putting 100% into their pet event (DH) and would continue to do that. Maybe some would do slalom for a while, then realize it is hurting their DH performance and they would return to just doing DH, Long Term participation simply wouldn't happen. It would also drive away most of the new blood that 4X is currently getting from ex BMXers (highly skilled riders that deserve your respect) and we would then be left in a far worse situation.

- Any top DH rider only wants Slalom to be brought back in because they never did any good at 4X when they raced it, the idea of something more familiar seems appealing to them, as they feel they have a better chance of doing well at it. So what do you do then? Give them their way and forget about the new breed of 4X rider that is currently emerging? It's called evolution people....if sports didn't evolve we would still be competing in chariot racing and such.

- Many top 4X racers have put their thoughtS into this thread, they have all found out about it (Theres links to this thread on loads of other websites/rider websites now) the 100% lack of any top DH racer posting here saying they would compete in world cup DS speaks volumes on how passoinate they are about DS....they don't really care at all. Like Boom Boom said earlier, the DS vs 4X meeting at the maribor world cup in 2007. Votes for 4X....approx 90, votes for DS....2 For the specific DH guys, 4X or DS, they really aren't concerened.


- The DS in favour of 4X vibe is coming from just the US. 4X is gaining acceptance and growth from every other country. I suppose part of the reason I've been a part of this thread so regularly lately is that I ride for a US company, and I want to see 4X (which as ive stated, I firmly beleive has a very bright future) reach its potential.

- There was no 4X negativity coming from the US when they were the dominant force. It has really only began with the retirement of Lopes, the last great US 4X racer of that time. Its easy to blame other factors when things arent so rosy.

- I have to say also (big thanks to Spomer @ Vital for taking time/interest to let me say my bit) that a lot of the negativity has come from the media, the human race has a natural instinct to follow the leader, a couple key US media people decided they didnt like 4X, so they make a song and dance about it, and it influences peoples decisions. 4X is the the way gated racing is going, so wouldn't it be in your best interest to put your personal feelings aside and support it? if you guys are all so passionate about MTB why are you constantly trying to bring a part of it down? Its something different...yes, something your not used to, but like I said, its evolution.

- 4X is still in it's infancy, there are certainly growing pains involved, but the general feeling from riders and anyone who closely follwed 4X this past season, is that it is on the up, partcipation is up, Courses are getting more figured out and racing is getting better, There is still a ways to go, no doubt, but it undeniably has potential to get much bigger.

- Passing, tracks definately need more aspects that reward rider skill, Ive mentioned many times what I would like to see in a track, but its not as simple as building whatever you like at World Cup level, there are many restrictions on where and track can be built, so dont go looking for the track builders blood, But in some cases, I think a bit more thought to what will make more exciting racing still needs to be adressed.

- I think at times also people expect too much from 4X, Kyle Ebbett just today brought up a good point at Vital...that if you are the fastest out of the start, and you can handle the pressure of holding off 3 guys trying to pass you, shouldnt you deserve to win? Competing in a sport where you can lose a race when you are the fastest rider in your race, and make no mistakes, doesnt make for a sport that people will be lining up to compete in. There is more than enough luck involved in 4X how it is, tracks need to be developed, where rider skill and preparation is rewarded more than luck, just like DH !

- 4X, in Europe especially, is receiving far more outside media and TV coverage than DH is, proving that it has huge potential for growth through outside interest. This is the type of media attention a sport needs to truly grow, when a sport feeds mostly off itself, it will always remain small.

- gates, whatever the gate, the guys that put in the training will have an edge, whenever I hear that people think BMX guys have the advantage coz of the gate, and something needs to change I get pretty angry.

Lets break this down a bit

A gate serves one purpose... it's a consistant thing for all the riders racing, for the race to start at the exact same time for everyone. I 100% believe the current UCI/random gate system is by far the fairest way to start a race...why? Because its easily accesable to everyone, at any local BMX track, or even for purchase for yourself if you are serious. No other form of start system imaginable is as easy to practice.

People often complain that BMX riders have an advantage on this start system, which is true, but only because they put in hours of training and practice for this start. If you truly want to be good at 4X you should maybe think about making an effort to get to the local track on gate nights and making your start better.

I ALWAYS used to blame poor 4X results on my complete lack of ability to do a gate start, I used to get absolutely hosed! But as my interest in 4X grew, I took some action, I practiced as often as I could, I worked as hard as I could to get a good gate, to be competitive, to the point now where I am 100% confident that nobody is going to be ahead of me after the snap. Its like any other skill on a bike, it takes time, but anyone can learn.

The people that complain that the current gate system needs changing need to really think if they are doing themselves any favours with their race preparation. I still hear world cup 4X guys saying they can't do a gate, and think the system needs to change, but they are the guys that never do any gate practice, they will spend all day practicing all the fun parts of 4X, but because gate practice isn't fun, they forget about it. Gate practice isnt the most enjoyable part of training, but if you are serious about doing well its vital. Its no different to expecting to do well at the top level of DH racing with never doing intervals/fitness work. Maybe a very select few randomly gifted freaks can, but it's far from realistic. As the saying goes, You only get out what you put in. It blows my mind that guys are racing world cups and complain when they are getting waxed out of the start, but dont want to do anything to help themselves.

In summary, this 4X negativity is coming only from the US, and in large part i see that as coming from the media and MTB figures across the country. Obviously 4X isn't their personal cup of tea, but if they were truly professional about their jobs, wouldn't they do all they can to help grow all aspects of MTB ,instead of letting their persoanal feelings get in the way, and bring it down.

Jared, this is spot on. I could not possibly agree with your comments any more if I wanted to. You have addressed every subjest that has been brought up during the 21 pages of this thread perfectly. I agree that this should be the closing statement to this subject as I do not see a way anyone can argue with anything you have said.

Sorry to all the forum regulars for quoting Jared's entire post, but I wanted to be clear what I was refering to. A classic piece of writing that should put this subject to bed.

SB.

[Joost]

Jared,

Think told everything in good words, how a lot of 4X riders think about it.
Thanks mate for put the right words in the right spot.

And now it's time to get back to training...