The future of 4X?

[Diablo_Freeride]

Originally Posted by VooDooHoo

I think the lack of entrants and competition speaks volumes on that idea.

In this day and age, 111 competitors is a very solid turnout for gated racing. Be it SL, GS or 4X. We used a new format and still had excellent numbers.
http://live-timing.com/report.php?r=...=167701&page=3

[Joost]

Hey,

I did read most of this topic very fast, so do not know all the ins and outs.
But i get a bit tired about this never ending story about 4X.

Lots of people who do not know anything about MTB think 4X is the best thing to watch. Because it s head to head racing, 1 hour of non stop action, easy to understand, and the best format for TV.

I do agree that 4X has to move away futher from BMX. Tracks need to be rougher, jumps need to be bigger and there need to be good opportunities to overtake.
Take a look at snowboarding, boarderX is the most popular dicipline now, way bigger the dual.
This is because it s more spectaculair, better for TV and people love head to head racing.

There are some media people who do not like 4X..and try to push their opinion that 4X sucks. I think that this is the biggest problem why we do not get the coverage which we deserve and need to create superstars in our sport like Steve in DH.

So stop complaining and use this energy to make it bigger!

Sorry for my poor english...

cheers
Joost

[iRider]

Why does it have be the one or the other? Like you guys said, on some hills you just can't build a good 4X course. So why not build a dual course there and have everybody race dual? With a mix of different tracks and different formats the racing would get all the more exciting. Similar to downhill where we have tracks from Canberra to Champery, catering to different kinds of riders and giving different racers a chance to win. In the end the best "gated" racer will walk away with the overall win.

[Zdenek Pol]

Originally Posted by stiksandstones

GOBIG
brought up a KEY point, it sure does seem like 4X dies off in the winter. You always kinda see what Peaty, Greg, Sam, Kovarik, etc...are up to in the winter from little local races to them mowing the lawns, but we do not get to hear much about 4X in the winter and what the 4X celebs are doing.

Tell me, what are your DH idols doing in the winter? I never heard a word about it before, so maybe you can help me with that... Don't get me wrong, I highly respect all those guys you noticed BUT it seems to me that you are just trying to find any smallest bad thing in 4X to support your "arguments" against 4X. Why you don't have balls to say just "I hate 4X"? It would be simple and time saving solution of your frustration, I guess.

[BC VAN]

Originally Posted by iRider

Why does it have be the one or the other? Like you guys said, on some hills you just can't build a good 4X course. So why not build a dual course there and have everybody race dual? With a mix of different tracks and different formats the racing would get all the more exciting. Similar to downhill where we have tracks from Canberra to Champery, catering to different kinds of riders and giving different racers a chance to win. In the end the best "gated" racer will walk away with the overall win.

The format didn't change in that situation just the types of courses.... that would be like saying... Canberra isn't a real DH as far as difficulty and steepness so lets race guys head to head to build excitement.

I know a lot of people were down on the DH worlds course, but watching on FreeCaster i liked the fact that there were different elements that were being brought into the mix, it was a very exciting race IMO.

That said i don't think that every 4x course should be cookie cutter stamped out style and have the same slope angle, i think diversity is good. some steep and some flatter.

I think if the UCI chooses a venue it should take the 4x into consideration and make sure there is a decent location for the discipline, it always felt like the mind set of shove it off to the side and just run it because we have to.

If there isn't a site then they should not hold a race, quality is better then quantity IMO.

It takes a lot for it all to come together, UCI picking good venue's, A organizer that understands what is going to be needed and is willing to do what is necessary, a fair bit of money, equipment operators that are skilled and efficient, good equipment not some borrowed piece from a buddy to save a buck.

All of this is before ground is even broke!

Joost had very good points about the future,not the past of gated racing.

Our sport is the summer version of Ski racing, if you look at the popularity of skier cross and boardercross in the recent years that is what i think the hope is.

Those are now Olympic disciplines!

[ilikecake]

Originally Posted by BC VAN

I think if the UCI chooses a venue it should take the 4x into consideration and make sure there is a decent location for the discipline, it always felt like the mind set of shove it off to the side and just run it because we have to.

Another key point! I've often felt like the selection of WC venues has not fully considered the 4X. It's almost been a side event tagged on and sometimes the venue couldn't handle it. Champery 07 was a prime example.

For the first time ever, in 2 weeks, I'm being sent to a potential WC venue to check it's suitability for 4X. I'll get to choose the best spot for the 4X, rather than being given a plot to make do with. This is a big step forward for the UCI and will have a big effect on all other aspects of designing and building the tracks. For me this shows the confidence the UCI now has in the future of 4X.

Media? I've always said that the WC 4X should have an event producer - the person who designs the show, the event choreography etc, but also manages the media. I'm sure this is what happens in Supercross.

The media has a huge influence on how things are "spun". With a small amount of help from them, 4X could be turned around, even without any changes (or any lies)! This happens in politics every day.

As Joost mentioned 4X is popular with people outside the normal MTB community. I think the industry could do with realising this and helping to push it a bit. Surely we all want MTB to be exported to the masses and 4X is probably the best medium.

[iRider]

Originally Posted by BC VAN

The format didn't change in that situation just the types of courses.... that would be like saying... Canberra isn't a real DH as far as difficulty and steepness so lets race guys head to head to build excitement.

So what would be the problem with the change in format in your opinion? The points for the overall are awarded the same way anyways, or? You have a clear ranking. Also, riders that are used to rubbing their elbows in the 4X would have no problem racing a dual from a safety point of view, in contrast to racing a downhill with more riders ( But you bring up a good point, throw a Reebok Eliminator race in there! ). BTW: the suggestion to have a dual style section in a 4X already came up, so my suggestion was just expanding on this idea.

Would a complete separation of the 4X from the downhill venues enable better courses? Moving the venues closer to big cities would get more spectators and is possible because the requirements are so different from a downhill venue (no chairlift needed, not as much elevation difference). This would also mature the sport and show that it is more than a side show to downhill. Venues putting up the race would be fully committed to it too.

[Gobig]

Originally Posted by ilikecake

Another key point! I've often felt like the selection of WC venues has not fully considered the 4X. It's almost been a side event tagged on and sometimes the venue couldn't handle it. Champery 07 was a prime example.

For the first time ever, in 2 weeks, I'm being sent to a potential WC venue to check it's suitability for 4X. I'll get to choose the best spot for the 4X, rather than being given a plot to make do with. This is a big step forward for the UCI and will have a big effect on all other aspects of designing and building the tracks. For me this shows the confidence the UCI now has in the future of 4X.

Media? I've always said that the WC 4X should have an event producer - the person who designs the show, the event choreography etc, but also manages the media. I'm sure this is what happens in Supercross.

The media has a huge influence on how things are "spun". With a small amount of help from them, 4X could be turned around, even without any changes (or any lies)! This happens in politics every day.

As Joost mentioned 4X is popular with people outside the normal MTB community. I think the industry could do with realising this and helping to push it a bit. Surely we all want MTB to be exported to the masses and 4X is probably the best medium.

Phil first up i know you have passion for 4x but come on . You had years to bring up and push for the things you say could benefit 4x to the UCI ? OK you been dealt some crappy hands in time/money/ room to build some good WC tracks... Why put your name to them if you know it's only going to be a half ass job?
I get the impression your taking it into your own hands how the sport should be cause your the track builder. Maybe im wrong and im out the loop, just my take looking in. I do know Tom Ritz who builds the BMX Super X tracks for the UCI gets input from not only the fast and not so fast riders but the girls 2 and i don't see 2 many people complaining that side, it keeps getting better and better.
Have a talk with Nigel Page when you see him next, he's got some great views on 4x from both sides ...

[Chris Roberts]

Originally Posted by Gobig

Maybe im wrong and im out the loop,

Yep it looks that way Dale.

There is a whole new wave in Fourcross now that really is working together to improve the sport, you can see that from Graves, Saxena, etc on here talking about it & explaining whats is going on,
pop over to the www.fourcross-alliance.com website have a read of the meeting that was held at the last World Cup in Schaldming.
Attending that meeting was all range of people from Team Managers, World Champions, UCI commisaires, riders, Media & guys from the Industry anyone with an intrest in Fourcross to help improve the sport.

[Zdenek Pol]

Originally Posted by iRider

Also, riders that are used to rubbing their elbows in the 4X would have no problem racing a dual from a safety point of view, in contrast to racing a downhill with more riders.

Why new faces should come from DH? From my opinion, this is one of the biggest mistakes repeating in these discussions again and again. At the World Cup level, for downhillers makes no sense if it's 4X, dual or whater format you want until the schedule remains like it is now.

Do you really think 4X needs downhillers? Does F1 need more rally drivers? Does rally need more F1 pilots? Probably not either way. There are few guys doing both but there is not a single one winning on the open roads and circuits. We need stronger grass roots program for 4X newcomers not a few downhillers. Sure, they are always welcome but they won't save 4X even if anyone thinks it needs to be saved.

There was about 120 4X riders in Schladming this year which means that almost half of them had to go home after the qualification. Even with thousand names on the start list, the race is still only for top 64!

[Zdenek Pol]

Originally Posted by Gobig

Maybe im wrong and im out the loop, just my take looking in. I do know Tom Ritz who builds the BMX Super X tracks for the UCI gets input from not only the fast and not so fast riders but the girls 2 and i don't see 2 many people complaining that side, it keeps getting better and better.

Dale, Johan Lindström makes the difference. Without this guy, BMX SX World Cup even didn't exist. Bring anyone passioned in 4X as Johan is in BMX to UCI and then I believe Phil would have free hands to show his skills as Tom has at SX.

[Chris Roberts]

Originally Posted by Oggy1

until the tracks are sorted then 4X will remain weak, the UK scene is the worst its ever been with next years calendar looking the same as it did in 2007, wheres the progression???

Oggy Oggy Oggy, do you think this is BMX talk?

I only deal in facts:
2007 - We raced on Six tracks
2010 - We will race on Eight tracks and 6 of those are new ones!
So to say there is no progression in the tracks is just lame.

Not sure where your were this year Oggy but the 2009 NPS4x series had its best year todate & is still Europes Biggest Fourcorss Series.
Rider numbers up, new tracks, Media coverage up 16 pages in Dirt Magazine in fact the only British mountain bike racing in Dirt magazine.

There is a whole new wave of riders racing four cross now, there not from BMX these guys just ride bikes either down there local track or down the trails, they come to race to have fun with the other friends they have made at the races.

The UK in the last couple years has produced at least 7 regular world cup riders on top of the all ready established world cup riders and a whole lot more to come.
There are at least 4 Juniors next year who want to do World cups and there are already 2 Youth riders planning on doing the 2011 World Cups.

Four Cross is on a whole new wave of riders and support.

Chris
Europe's Biggest 4X Series

[Oggy1]

chris, facts are that the same 6 venues will be included in the 8 for 2010, chris ive tried speaking to you many many times about the state of tracks, you seem to think im having a go at you, whatever you think im over it now.
numbers up where??
im glad you brought the magazine to my attention, chicksands in dirt was two pages of junior, masters and what ever else, what happened to elite??? nothing, same with mbuk too, no coverage for elite, dirt this issue has a two page spread with the juvenille national winner, who won elite?? does anyone care?? i guess not seen as though he's won it for the last three years

i do hope the 4X alliance works, zdenk pol knows the score

[Chris Roberts]

Originally Posted by Oggy1

chris, facts are that the same 6 venues will be included in the 8 for 2010, chris ive tried speaking to you many many times about the state of tracks, you seem to think im having a go at you, whatever you think im over it now.
numbers up where??
im glad you brought the magazine to my attention, chicksands in dirt was two pages of junior, masters and what ever else, what happened to elite??? nothing, same with mbuk too, no coverage for elite, dirt this issue has a two page spread with the juvenille national winner, who won elite?? does anyone care?? i guess not seen as though he's won it for the last three years

i do hope the 4X alliance works, zdenk pol knows the score

Oggy, I am sorry that Dirt & Mbuk dont want to show a photo of you, but thats not up me.

For the record the 2007 series went to these places

Sheffield Indoor Sunday 04/03/2007
Chicksands – Bedford Sunday 01/04/2007
The Edge – Bridgnorth Sunday 20/05/2007
Fort William Sunday 17/06/2007
NASS Sunday 8th July
Hamesterley – County Durham Sunday 23/09/2007

Next year we are going to

Uk Bike Park
The Edge
Donnington Park
Redhill Extreme
PORC
South West Extreme
Chicksands

of which you will see only the Edge and Chicksands we went to in 2007.

[Oggy1]

chris i didnt even mention any pics of me any where on that last message, i mentioned the current elite number1

have you told chicksands that your not gonna run the race there unless they change the track???