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Thread: women in combat

  1. #1
    Expert on blowing $tinkle's Avatar
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    women in combat

    after reading the women's war (nytimes; login req.), i'm still holding the openly sexist position combat roles should go exclusively to men. adding to that, forward deployed positions to included supply lines (jessica lynch comes to mind).

    so with that, if the role of the uniformed military is to win wars (when waged), what to do w/ the women? keep them state-side?

    if so, is this a step back for women's rights, thinly disguised as chivalry, or shall we acknowledge women in dangerous roles are a liability to the mission?
    our fears establish the limits of our life - erwin mcmanus

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    Paranoid Member Changleen's Avatar
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    Depends how hard they are. If they're up to the job, what's the problem?

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    AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math! MudGrrl's Avatar
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    One of the biggest compliments I ever got was from a guy (who now is the head of a SWAT), who was brainstorming with another guy about their own Special Ops team. They said they would have me on it.


    If I can do the same friggin job that you can do, why hold me back?

    Just because I don't have the same appendages as you doesn't mean I can't clear a building, can't set up a cordon, can't lead a fire team, can't tote my own rifle.

    Because I have a vagina I have to be a cook on the back line?
    Maybe they (the armed forces) might want to consider a new training program for it's female recruits: crocheting parachutes and cleaning missiles. Maybe the "Men" will feel more secure that all of their dirty heavy work won't be touched by the virginal hands of the womens.


    Don't give me that "men hurt more when they see a woman wounded" bs. Why is my life more important than yours?

    Don't give me that tired excuse about "women being distractions and the unit should be homogenous" crap because that'll send us right back to dividing black and white.

    Don't give me that chivalrous (isn't that just a sparkly word for chauvinistic?) crap about guys wanting to step up and save me, because I can save my own dmn self and probably bring a couple of people with me.

  5. #4
    find me a tampon Silver's Avatar
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    They should not only be in combat, they should also be eligible for the draft.
    When the lights came up at two, I caught a glimpse of you and your face looked like something Death brought with him in his suitcase.

  6. #5
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    culturally, we tend to value women more than men, and just one telling example is this: do you know who matthew maupin is? if it were tina maupin, we'd have monthly vigils for her, and rightly so.

    psychologically - or wrt propaganda - which would produce more outrage (& more anti-war sentiment): a female soldier bound & gagged on al-jazeera w/ zarqawi & his henchmen behind, or just a "lowly" unknown male E4?

    this is not about operational capabilities & who can better man a ready-bake oven, this is about the real prospect of exploiting a psy-op advantage. in this g.w.o.t., we value our women inversely to the extremists.

    we use the phrase "uncovered meat" as gallows humor; they use it w/ full knowledge & intent of its meaning.

    ** edit ** mudgrrl: your points are all valid & i've held similar beliefs since i first joined up during gulf war I. that's not my angle here. i leave that crap to burly. i think i hear him coming down the hall now...
    Last edited by $tinkle; 03-19-2007 at 07:27 PM.
    our fears establish the limits of our life - erwin mcmanus

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    Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists MikeD's Avatar
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    The secret to teaching men to fight as a unit, close in, for long campaigns, is by sexualizing aggression. Been that way since the dawn of time. Don't throw women into that mix. Not fair to the men, not good for the women. The troops are conditioned to perceive and act one way in society, another in the field when they're among men and accomplishing the mission. Don't bring society to the field.

    The other fact is that men simply don't interact with women the same way they do with men. Two men and a woman on a machinegun team? Laying on top of each other and operating the gun? Men bond in a group, men and women form an exclusive bond between themselves. You can't put 19 year old men and women together in the most incredibly stressful and isolated circumstances possible and not expect them to ****. When they ****, there are huge problems. There's exclusion, there's anger, jealous, and a breakdown of the sorts of bonds that keep the unit and the chain of command together.

    There are problems enough in mixed non-infantry units. Mixed gender simply will not work for offensive ground combat units, and I don't think you'll find enough women to make a viable all-female combat unit. If you can, fine with me, as long as they can pack the gear and do the job.

    Mudgrrl, the vast difference between the sexes transcend the minor differences of race. The comparison simply isn't valid.

    I'm not saying that a mixed unit can't survive combat. Especially with today's "people" power deficit in the military, we need every body we can get, and women can fire a weapon just as well as men. The problem does not come when a rear-echelon (whatever that means today) is forced to fight (which again, is often)...there's a HUGE difference between frontline offensive combat units and others. Yes, in the battlefield today, everyone may have to fight. But fighting for your life when someone attacks you is still lightyears away from being a trained group tasked with locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy.

    Before I joined the military, i would have never believed any of this, by the way. And I don't work in the infantry anymore; I work in a field where many of us deploy to other countries and carry lots of guns, and we kick in doors in the US as well. I do this alongside women, men, gays, straights, and all races, happily and without complaint, so long as my peers of any gender or orientation are competent. In fact, on the 'softer' side of my job, having people of all backgrounds and types is an enormous asset for relating to the various people we need to relate to. (ed: Not to say that's the only reason for having mixed backgrounds...like I said, anyone who can do my job is welcome to do it. But we're not the infantry)

    But I will never, ever think it's a viable option for offensive ground combat units to have mixed genders, nor will I stand idly by if someone tries to make that happen during my lifetime. The military is about killing people and breaking things, not providing some model for or mirror of normal society. The military should not be victimized by society's idealism.

    MD

    PS Mudgrrl, to your comment about special ops...#1, he was probably trying to get in your shorts. Men are like that. #2, ironically, special ops are potentially an area where women could actually work, I think...but the acession process requires you to be infantry first, so until we have homogenous female combat units, I don't think we can have that...
    Last edited by MikeD; 03-19-2007 at 09:25 PM.

  8. #7
    Paranoid Member Changleen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
    The other fact is that men simply don't interact with women the same way they do with men. Two men and a woman on a machinegun team? Laying on top of each other and operating the gun?
    Does that apply to gays-in-uniform too?

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    Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists MikeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Changleen View Post
    Does that apply to gays-in-uniform too?
    Nope.

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    I hear they're doing a remake of 'Sniper' staring Jessica Biel.
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    AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math! MudGrrl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
    PS Mudgrrl, to your comment about special ops...#1, he was probably trying to get in your shorts. Men are like that.

    Oh, thanks for pointing that out.

    The only way a woman can get anywhere in this world is by letting guys in their pants.

    How many woman bosses do you have and how many of them do you think slept with someone to get there?


    It's too bad you weren't on any of my teams (and know how I work), you would know better than to say something so obviously chauvinistic and degrading about me and my team.

  12. #11
    AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math! MudGrrl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
    The secret to teaching men to fight as a unit, close in, for long campaigns, is by sexualizing aggression. Been that way since the dawn of time. Don't throw women into that mix. Not fair to the men, not good for the women.

    awwww...the po widdle mens can kill, but for some odd reason can't control themselves around a woman.... (kinda like how women in the middle east must cover themselves up because men can't control themselves).

    Woman must be made out of kryptonite.

  13. #12
    Outwitted by a rodent Da Peach's Avatar
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    Just keep those women away from my kids, like the gays.
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  14. #13
    unemployed bum DRB's Avatar
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    I couldn't agree with this statement more:

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeD
    Yes, in the battlefield today, everyone may have to fight. But fighting for your life when someone attacks you is still lightyears away from being a trained group tasked with locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy.
    I'll I'm going to say is that thank god, I would not have to command infantry units integrated with women.
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  15. #14
    Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists MikeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudGrrl View Post
    Oh, thanks for pointing that out.

    The only way a woman can get anywhere in this world is by letting guys in their pants.

    How many woman bosses do you have and how many of them do you think slept with someone to get there?


    It's too bad you weren't on any of my teams (and know how I work), you would know better than to say something so obviously chauvinistic and degrading about me and my team.
    I never said you or any other woman got where you/she did by sleeping with anyone.

    I have no problem working for my female boss.

    I even said I could envision women working successfully in special ops...it's not the line infantry, it's made of another class of individual, and its purpose is not generally the same as that of the line.

    As to your burqua comment, I think saying that women can work in the military, that I and others can and do work with women in demanding environments with guns and bombs, is far from even suggesting that women are incapable or need protection from men's animal nature.

  16. #15
    Expert on blowing $tinkle's Avatar
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    so, should we have the same measure of qualification for both men & women in combat roles? come eval time, there is some battery of tests, to include individual effort (timed run for distance, fireman carry, or some other battle of the network stars obstacle course).

    because there's the glaring & significant physical differences between the sexes, i contend this translates to a higher risk of capture and killing of our women. of course, this would all fall apart if evaluation is irrespective of the presence of junk. and this would hopefully not be the result of "dumbing-down" physical aptitude (i.e. making qualification for a woman be that she's as strong as the weakest male team member).

    iirc, all spec ops (seals, pj's, cct's, tacp, rangers, green berets, etc.) are exclusively male teams. i don't believe they even extend an invitation to females.

    is this b/c they have "high" standards, or "different" standards? and why is that?
    our fears establish the limits of our life - erwin mcmanus

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