While you were sleeping (Patriot Act II)

[$tinkle]

let's start with this:

Amendment IV of the U.S. Constitution
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Sierra Times reports: "On December 13, when U.S. forces captured Saddam Hussein, President George W. Bush not only celebrated with his national security team, but also pulled out his pen and signed into law a bill that grants the FBI sweeping new powers. A White House spokesperson explained the curious timing of the signing - on a Saturday - as "the President signs bills seven days a week." But the last time Bush signed a bill into law on a Saturday happened more than a year ago - on a spending bill that the President needed to sign, to prevent shuttng down the federal government the following Monday."

here's the scary part:

By signing the bill on the day of Hussein's capture, Bush effectively consigned a dramatic expansion of the USA Patriot Act to a mere footnote. The Bush Administration and its Congressional allies tucked away these new executive powers in the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2004, a legislative behemoth that funds all the intelligence activities of the federal government. The Act included a simple, yet insidious, redefinition of "financial institution," which previously referred to banks, but now includes stockbrokers, car dealerships, casinos, credit card companies, insurance agencies, jewelers, airlines, the U.S. Post Office, and any other business "whose cash transactions have a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax, or regulatory matters."

i didn't have much beef w/ the recently passed PA, but this here bugs me when you recall that under this provision, they have unfettered access to currency exchange; an issuer, redeemer, or cashier of travelers' checks, checks, money orders, or similar instruments. an operator of a credit card system; A dealer in precious metals, stones, or jewels; a pawnbroker; a loan or finance company; a mortgage broker; Persons involved in real estate closings and settlements; a travel agency;

A licensed sender of money or any other person who engages as a business in the transmission of funds, including any person who engages as a business in an informal money transfer system or any network of people who engage as a business in facilitating the transfer of money domestically or internationally outside of the conventional financial institutions system; (Think "PayPal", and similar companies) A telegraph company; (Western Union)

A business engaged in vehicle sales, including automobile, airplane, and boat sales. (Bought a car or boat lately?)


oh crap! i'm starting to get the goobies out of my eyes!

[ohio]

Weren't you just arguing in another thread that no one is removing your basic freedoms?

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but we are taking the steps towards a police state. We've got a long way to go yet, but given that no one seems to be protesting and we'll likely have 4 more years of the same... it gets a little scary.

edit: "noone" = "no one"

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by $tinkle
oh crap! i'm starting to get the goobies out of my eyes!

It's frightening huh?

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by ohio
Weren't you just arguing in another thread that no one is removing your basic freedoms?

not quite

<unapologetic equivocating>
i'm not giving up any freedoms, nor should anyone. These subversive dissenters should be reigned in, however. Most certainly, these folks are in the minority (for now).
</unapologetic equivocating>

bear in mind i typed that only minutes before reading the sierra times article. New information begat new position. My antenae are now up.

Originally posted by ohio
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but we are taking the steps towards a police state. We've got a long way to go yet, but given that no one seems to be protesting and we'll likely have 4 more years of the same... it gets a little scary.

'04 should mete out these theories...film at 11

[Toshi]

Originally posted by ohio
Weren't you just arguing in another thread that no one is removing your basic freedoms?

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but we are taking the steps towards a police state. We've got a long way to go yet, but given that no one seems to be protesting and we'll likely have 4 more years of the same... it gets a little scary.

edit: "noone" = "no one"

that's not true. the people who are protesting are still doing so. from guantanamo [sp?] bay.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Toshi
that's not true. the people who are protesting are still doing so. from guantanamo [sp?] bay.

it seems that you are claiming that there are protesters who were wisked away from our country & are now detained in gitmo.

is this your claim? if so, please give supporting evidence.

[Tweek]

Originally posted by ohio
Weren't you just arguing in another thread that no one is removing your basic freedoms?

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but we are taking the steps towards a police state. We've got a long way to go yet, but given that no one seems to be protesting and we'll likely have 4 more years of the same... it gets a little scary.

I agree entirely. It's going to be a gradual and subtle recession of our civil liberties. I don't plan to be passive, but I'm willing to see what happens after the next election. (And my vote will definitely be for change.)

[Silver]

The problem with sh!t like this is that no matter who gets elected in 04 or 08 or 12 won't roll this back. If they try, the FBI will howl, they will trot out the terror bogeyman, and the politicians will roll over.

[Toshi]

Originally posted by $tinkle
it seems that you are claiming that there are protesters who were wisked away from our country & are now detained in gitmo.

is this your claim? if so, please give supporting evidence.

see the other thread. there is no evidence since the govt has not deemed it necessary to tell anyone who is being held captive there. i don't think any "hippie protesters" to use BurlySurly's term from the other thread are being held. but the truth is that no one knows.

[ohio]

Originally posted by Toshi
see the other thread. there is no evidence since the govt has not deemed it necessary to tell anyone who is being held captive there. i don't think any "hippie protesters" to use BurlySurly's term from the other thread are being held. but the truth is that no one knows.

And since the FBI and members of the administration have been very willing to publicly label protesters and dissenters as "terrorists of a sort" it is a pretty short step to that conclusion.

I don't think it's happening right now (I do believe, perhaps naively, that those being held in Guantanamo are clear and immediate threats... though it would be nice if the information was public), but if it DID happen today, there's nothing left in place to stop it.

[DRB]

Originally posted by $tinkle
oh crap! i'm starting to get the goobies out of my eyes!

If you aren't doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about.

Isn't that the stock response?

[N8 v2.0]

It will be very interesting to see if this Act is repealed if a democrate becomes Prez... my money is betting on No... It'll be fun listening to the left explain to the right just why the Act must stay in place.

[DRB]

Originally posted by N8
It will be very interesting to see if this Act is repealed if a democrate becomes Prez... my money is betting on No... It'll be fun listening to the left explain to the right just why the Act must stay in place.

And it will be just as funny watching the other side justifying getting rid of it after supporting it.

[N8 v2.0]

Yep... nice to know we can thank Clinton for it too...

[DRB]

Originally posted by N8
Yep... nice to know we can thank Clinton for it too...

You need to change your handle from N8 to Pavlov's Dog.