I need some feedback...

[rpet]

Just saw the most recent specs on the S&M 38 Special:
CS:14.75-15.5"
BB: 12"
TT: 21.5"
HA: 73
weight: 4lb, 5oz

I wish it didn't have a Euro BB though.

[don]

Those Sunday's look pretty interesting. I agree the 13.75" BB height is a little tall but props for them to do something totally different. I think there will be some tweaking of geometry for these types of cruiser for a bit and someone will find the "magic" numbers (hopefully Cru!) like 20" BMX frames.

[Cru Jones]

The bb does seem CRAZY high. I'd like to ride it, though. The wheel size could make up for it being so high and keep it fairly stable. Maybe I'm being fooled by how it looks in BikeCAD, but to me, it seems like our design looks more aggressive, more like a trail slaying machine. I just hope they keep their geo similar to what they're talking about now so that there is enough of a distinguishable difference. It'd be cool to have that option for forks and bars, though.

[Stoked]

the comments about the model c have been going crazy. good info and everyone is acting helpful for once for internet comments haha.

http://www.sundaybikes.com/2008/10/sunday-model-c.html

keep checking, jim wrote a nice response. he's getting what people are into. don't think he'll budge on bb height...

Ok, this is all really interesting. I'm going to post a few more photos of the bikes and maybe some riding shots.

There's way too much to answer, but here goes. X-ups are tough because your foot hits when you are going a topside X-up, but downside no problem. The funny thing is barspins work totally fine. Your foot must be in a different position. Turndowns are funny too because the wheel hits your shin when you go past 200 degrees or so.

I've noticed from the responses that you guys are sort of all over the place in your interests. some want to ride trails, some skatepark and a few street. And the sizes are generally in a range, but I'm totally unsure of the market yet. I'm definitely thinking of making a bigger size in addition to the one I ride. The 21 works completely fine for me. Not really into doing X-ups unless its into a grind and that is the other direction for me. And it nose wheelies and hang 5s like no problem. The bb height probably won't change because that is what makes it lots of fun and responsive. Keep asking questions and throwing me your thoughts. I'll try and keep up.
thanks,
jim

[knowayback]

yeah, get posting people!
I personally think it needs a longer tt or 3 sizes (21.25", 21.75" & 22.75") and also shorter chainstays to make it as agile & aggro as possible and to really seperate it from the current racy cruisers.
If enough us post our opinions up there with good arguements to back them up we may actually have a say in getting a legit freestyle 24
I really hope people get behind the longer tt cos unless it's 22 it won't be of any interest to little old 6'6" me!
what's the point of a 24 wheeled bike with a short tt - surley the whole reason you'd want a 24 is cos a 20 feels too small, theres soooo many bmx frames with 21, 21.25 & quite a few with 21.5 & 22, ergo cruiser sizes should be proportionally bigger like the rest of the geo.
thats without even going into the whole foot/tyre issue...
i implore u to tell jim what want, and make this new genre a reality!

[dhallilama]

yeah, get posting people!
I personally think it needs a longer tt or 3 sizes (21.25", 21.75" & 22.75") and also shorter chainstays to make it as agile & aggro as possible and to really seperate it from the current racy cruisers.
If enough us post our opinions up there with good arguements to back them up we may actually have a say in getting a legit freestyle 24
I really hope people get behind the longer tt cos unless it's 22 it won't be of any interest to little old 6'6" me!
what's the point of a 24 wheeled bike with a short tt - surley the whole reason you'd want a 24 is cos a 20 feels too small, theres soooo many bmx frames with 21, 21.25 & quite a few with 21.5 & 22, ergo cruiser sizes should be proportionally bigger like the rest of the geo.
thats without even going into the whole foot/tyre issue...
i implore u to tell jim what want, and make this new genre a reality!

at 5'11", the 21" top tube doesn't sound unreasonably short to me because there's a lot more to the overall feel of a bike than one number.
while i generally like "kinda long" top tubes, "kinda short" chainstays and "kinda high" bottom brackets... all of that means nothing individually.

i really, really want to ride the model-c to see how it feels... but i'd be glad to put my $ where my mouth is and buy one right now if it were available. i was super excited to hear the dimensions/geo on the bike, as it's very very close to what i've been thinking about having built... since nobody else seems to be building anything other than old geo cruisers or 24" MTBMX.

jim seems pretty committed to the model-c, which is awesome. it's also awesome that he/sunday communicate well with their (potential and current) customers. surprised me when i got a lengthy email back from him after asking about a few details.
waiting till spring is gonna be rough...

[Hup]

It is nice to see a company working this way. Props to Jim and Sunday for doing something different.

I love this photo:

[Cru Jones]

yeah, get posting people!

Noooooo... save it for here! Haha.

So, I thought you guys may be interested in seeing the prototype drawing. I have actually changed a few specs for the protos since receiving this drawing, but you'll get the idea. We're going to have two protos made with slightly different specs:

Proto 1:
TT: 22.3
BB: 12.7
HA: 74

Proto 2:
TT: 21.9
BB: 12.5
HA: 73.5

Same on both:
CS: 14.25
SA: 71.5
ST: 9.1 center to center (taller than shown on this drawing)

[Strauss]

i got 5 on it

[rpet]

nice numbers Cru! Glad there is one longer than 22". I bet 74 is the right number for HA.

--------

I must admit, I'd like to try that Sunday's high BB to see what it's all about.

[Cru Jones]

I must admit, I'd like to try that Sunday's high BB to see what it's all about.

Yeah, I would too. My feeling is that it'd probably be fine and feel OK for slow speeds on street and park... but, I just think for trails at speed that it would be way too top heavy. 13.75" is higher than any 26" mtbmx frame... and they even get another inch from bigger wheels, plus additional stability from bigger wheels. I never thought we'd be talking about a cruiser with a 12.7" bb and be saying that it's low... haha.

[knowayback]

the protos sound great - soooo glad ur doing the longer toptube, 12.7 sounds perfect especially when combined with the short stays, would of thought steeper head angles on both, 75 h/a on the 22.3 & 74 on the 21.9
keep up the good work!

[t1maglio]

I'm going to jump on the steeper HT angle. 74.5 is always money, but I'm sure 74 will be good. Also, the chainstays, are you going 14.25 center of drop out or slammed? I would love to have an extra .25" on my Tonic, and with the longer TT it might be good with the leverage and all.

Just my .02

[Cru Jones]

Well, I'm not sure I want to go steeper than 74... for a couple reasons. For one, I don't really like a steeper HA all that much. It's great for nose manuals, but other than that, it just makes the ride a little more twitchy at speed. 74 is perfect for trails (and I intend for this to be a more trails oriented frame). Look at the new Deluxe BMX trails frames... 74. The 2nd thing is foot clearance. It's going to be tight as is. A steeper HA would just make it worse. That's why we're trying 73.5 on the shorter one. But, we'll try to do what we can to get it to be 74.

Why is it exactly that you want a steeper HA?

Stays are 14.25" slammed. I'm not sure we can go any shorter without doing some type of chainstay yoke setup. Once we ride them, we'll be able to tell if it needs to be shorter, or the bb higher, or both. Remember that this already has a significantly higher bb and shorter stays than the fall guy... so it should come up and pop quite a bit easier.

Thanks for the input guys!!

[knowayback]

Why is it exactly that you want a steeper HA?

Cos I ride about 85% street, 10% park & 5% trails so i'm after a more nimble frame. I'm all about the tech! - I wish!
Seriously though my favorite things to do are big bunnyhops, hop 360s, manuals, nosebonks and (attempted) nosewheelies. Also love a big & fast I80 with quick snap, tyre squealing revert...you get the idea!
If it weren't for my enormous stature I doubt i'd even be cosidering a 24, but even a deuce deuce feels cramped & unless someone brings out 10" bars or forks with super long steerer tubes i'm never gonna get my bars where i want them.