The Indians are ripping us off.

[Tenchiro]

While I personally think gambling is idiotic, and should be limited. He went way over the top with this statement...

California Governor Fights Indian Casino Expansion
By Adam Tanner

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a warning for state voters: "The Indians are ripping us off."

Schwarzenegger has taken up the line to convince them to reject a tribe-backed initiative on the Nov. 2 ballot that would allow rapid expansion of American Indian casinos in the nation's most populous state and derail the governor's own effort to manage casino growth.

Some critics say the governor is going too far with his campaign -- tapping a deep vein of hostility that dates back to the settlers' conquest of the U.S. West.

"His statement touches on racism," said Virgil Moorehead, chairman of the Big Lagoon Rancheria tribe in northern California. "It's so uneducated and so far-fetched to say that we are ripping off the state."

Added Victor Rocha, an American Indian who edits a Web site related to casino gambling: "I don't think it is racist but it sure fans the flames of racism by going and saying that and just having that type of hatred of Native Americans."

LINK (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041016/us_nm/campaign_schwarzenegger_indians_dc_5)

[ALEXIS_DH]

yup, gambling is stupid.
but his statement is too overboard.

i work in a casino. in fact, my family is in the biz, we own one, and a lottery. and i see casinos as a wealth-distribuition tool. :D

takes the money out of the wealthy enough to go and spend their money for the sake of a thrill, and takes the money out of the stupid enough to go and gamble thinking they are gonna win. both sides deserve to loose.

and with this money you make a few job opennings for people and a source of income for their families, you get heavily taxed, taxes which support sports, schools, etc, etc, and we keep a chunk.

so as far as people keep their vices under control is OK. and a few good laws prohibiting for example staying in a casino more than certain number of hours, or requiring casinos to kick out those who dont comply and enforcing it would be enough.

[Damn True]

Indian gaming is the biggest scam ever. There are a couple of wacky items on the ballot here that are being presented with some really disingenuous (sp?) spray.

a) A proposition on the ballot to allow indian gaming casinos in locations not on reservations. If voted in, and someone can prove they are a surviving member of a tribe, even if there is no reservation they can put up a casino anywhere.This is actually being fought by the major Indian Casinos (and the casinos in NV). They are presenting as follows: "The building of casinos in urban areas will have a negative impact on traffic, they might go in near a school and will be harmfull to children etc)

The real reason they are fighting it is that they fear that a casino built in the Bay Area will attract folks living in major population centers and make them less likely to drive to the remote Sierra foothill locations of the Indian Casinos make them less likely to go to NV.

b) Another proposition is about taxation of the Casino revenue. Currently, becuase the Casinos are supposedly owned by groups of individuals the revenue is taxed as personal income. The propositon would tax them the same as corporations. They are of course opposed to this but their ads are not at all honest about it. They make no mention of the increase in taxation that will occur if it is passed but rather make statements like, "Shouldn't the casinos have to pay taxes just like you?" Well they do pay taxes like me, the SHOULD pay taxes just like NV Casinos which are taxed under corprate tax schdules. They are just trying to avoid higher taxation.

[ohio]

I'm not well informed enough to have any opinion about policy; DTs opinions seem reasonable enough to me.

My only comment is, what kind of jackasses does Arnie surround himself with that NONE of them stopped that from being his tagline on this issue. It sounds like it wasn't off-the-cuff.

[Silver]

My only comment is, what kind of jackasses does Arnie surround himself with that NONE of them stopped that from being his tagline on this issue. It sounds like it wasn't off-the-cuff.

The same ones that let him get up on stage and say "Don't be economic girlie men!"

I liked the Daily Show's take better:

"So Arnold's message to the 1.3 million people who slid into poverty last year is 'Suck it up, faggots.'"

[N8]

Oh indian casinos are ok.... the indians have just found a 21st century way to scalp the 'white-man...'



:p

[ioscope]

Wow...
That's what you get for electing a german...

"The german's are stealing all of the high paying jobs in america."

I hope you understand my subtexts

[Silver]

Wow...
That's what you get for electing a german...

"The german's are stealing all of the high paying jobs in america."

I hope you understand my subtexts

I don't...

But, he's Austrian, isn't he? Any other nations in the past had trouble with Austrian born leaders? :p

[valve bouncer]

I don't...

But, he's Austrian, isn't he? Any other nations in the past had trouble with Austrian born leaders? :p
Hey leave the Aussies out of this.....oh sh*t....Austria.....alright, don't know any famous Austrian leaders.....Heider?????? ;) ;) :D

[MMike]

Hey leave the Aussies out of this.....oh sh*t....Austria.....alright, don't know any famous Austrian leaders.....Heider?????? ;) ;) :D

"Austria? BEAUTIFUL!! G'Day mate! Let's throw another shrimp on the barby!"

"It's ok! I'm a limo driver!"

[DRB]

Indian gaming is the biggest scam ever. There are a couple of wacky items on the ballot here that are being presented with some really disingenuous (sp?) spray.

SNIP

b) Another proposition is about taxation of the Casino revenue. Currently, becuase the Casinos are supposedly owned by groups of individuals the revenue is taxed as personal income. The propositon would tax them the same as corporations. They are of course opposed to this but their ads are not at all honest about it. They make no mention of the increase in taxation that will occur if it is passed but rather make statements like, "Shouldn't the casinos have to pay taxes just like you?" Well they do pay taxes like me, the SHOULD pay taxes just like NV Casinos which are taxed under corprate tax schdules. They are just trying to avoid higher taxation.

Apparently Arnie doesn't even want them to pay at the same rate as corporations but at a higher rate. From the article
Schwarzenegger is seeking to negotiate deals with tribes to pay the state more of what casinos make -- perhaps 15 to 25 percent, he said this week. But he has not explained how he reached those figures or why the casinos should pay more than the standard corporate tax.

I'd love to hear the answer as to why they need to tax them at a higher rate with the state corporate tax rate being 8.84%.

[DRB]

orginally posted by ALEXIS_DHyup, gambling is stupid.
but his statement is too overboard.

i work in a casino. in fact, my family is in the biz, we own one, and a lottery. and i see casinos as a wealth-distribuition tool. :D

Oh yeah the average Indian is really benefitting from the ownership of casinos. The country's 2.1 million Indians, about 400,000 of whom live on reservations, have the highest rates of poverty, unemployment and disease of any ethnic group in America. With nearly a third living below the poverty level. But less than a quarter of America's 557 Indian tribes own casinos, and only 48 tribes earn more than $10 million a year on gaming. Almost a third of the money being brought in is by two tribes. And because of the structure of the tribes there is no revenue sharing.

In fact the casinos have probably hurt the average Indian more than they have helped. Because as the article points out

"The basic thing that Indian gaming has done is raise the salience of some very wealthy tribes at the expense of an accurate picture of what's going on in Indian country," said Jonathan Taylor, a research fellow at the Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development.

This inaccurate picture as lead to the cutting of the Bureau of Indian Affairs funding some 10% over the last 10 years or so.

[Skookum]

Tribes don't have to pay the State governments ANYTHING if they don't want to.
My tribe has 3 casino's goin, and i guess i make around $500 a year from that. Glad Arnie isn't up here to grab a hundred bucks from me.
Should be nothing suprising really, a European trying to rip off Indians.....

[ALEXIS_DH]

orginally posted by ALEXIS_DH

Oh yeah the average Indian is really benefitting from the ownership of casinos. The country's 2.1 million Indians, about 400,000 of whom live on reservations, have the highest rates of poverty, unemployment and disease of any ethnic group in America. With nearly a third living below the poverty level. But less than a quarter of America's 557 Indian tribes own casinos, and only 48 tribes earn more than $10 million a year on gaming. Almost a third of the money being brought in is by two tribes. And because of the structure of the tribes there is no revenue sharing.

In fact the casinos have probably hurt the average Indian more than they have helped. Because as the article points out



This inaccurate picture as lead to the cutting of the Bureau of Indian Affairs funding some 10% over the last 10 years or so.


well, my argument is for the casion industry as a whole.
am not US-indian, am half South-American-Indian. (a little difference in there).

as an outsider (our casino is in Lima, Peru, where casinos are just like any other biz and have no ethnic ownership requirements, we are not related to the US casino industry at all) i see the indian casinos as a necesary evil.

just like affirmative action. its tipping the balance towards the indians, since they had the balance tipped against them too much time, for them to have a chance to overcome this unfairness in a reasonable time-frame.

you may argue, that they are not killed anymore, and etc, etc, etc, so they dont deserve a "reparation".
BUT you cannot deny their chances today are no different from that of everyone else whose last 5 generations private properties were ripped off in the name if whatever (white man, progress, US, i dont care as its irrelevant).

and casinos, are a tool for them to make money. its not giving them money from the gvmt, but giving them a right to run an extremely profitable business.
is it unfair? yes, is it racist?? yes. but imo, other than this unfair meassure, it would be hard to tip the balance enough, to make it even. casinos are an unfair, but effective way of doing this.

and i dont think any problem with the poorness of indians as a whole can be attributed to the casinos themselves. their situations without casinos definately wont be any better imo.

maybe better laws regarding the yield distribution of casinos, or taxing the crap out of them to basically support college scholarships for indians, so that in maybe 30 years (or until indian wealth average and median get close to the national US average and median), the indian monolopy on the casino industry is no longer a law.

[Jesus]

Tribes don't have to pay the State governments ANYTHING if they don't want to.
My tribe has 3 casino's goin, and i guess i make around $500 a year from that. Glad Arnie isn't up here to grab a hundred bucks from me.
Should be nothing suprising really, a European trying to rip off Indians.....

And I don't think they should ever pay taxes.

Face it, the natives here got screwed. We killed most of them, and when the gov'ment finally gave them something (and i'm not getting into how many times we promised them something, then changed our minds), we gave them the lands the white people didn't want. We screwed them plain and simple.

Now, they found a way to make money, and the gov'ment wants a cut?

Fu@k that!

Let the Indians keep what they make. Hopefully the tribes are telling them to kiss their collective a$$es!

BTW, are Indians allowed to vote?

I heard that they weren't, but that was changed.

[Skookum]

And I don't think they should ever pay taxes.

The thing people don't seem to want to grasp is that tribes are treated as sovereign nations within and under the jurisdiction of the federal government(y'know good ole U.S. of A.). States and city governments don't have any say in what tribes do. It's kind of like Nevada telling California to pay up for whatever....
BUT the tribes do participate in dealings with states for various reasons, i know the biggest and practically only thing going on in Inchelium where alot of my family lives is a tribal run business Post and Pole. If you are a tribal member working there you pay state taxes, but i believe the only reason is to be admitted into benefits from the state like L&I, unemployement etc. etc.
i pay all kinds of taxes while off the reservation which means all the time. Jesus is right i shouldn't have to pay a frikkin dime but i do pay and unlike alot of people i don't whine about it. Well not often at least....

BTW, are Indians allowed to vote?

I heard that they weren't, but that was changed.
Yah changed on June 1, 1924 (43 STAT. L 253) PROVIDES THAT ALL INDIANS BORN WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.

[DRB]

well, my argument is for the casion industry as a whole.
am not US-indian, am half South-American-Indian. (a little difference in there).

as an outsider (our casino is in Lima, Peru, where casinos are just like any other biz and have no ethnic ownership requirements, we are not related to the US casino industry at all) i see the indian casinos as a necesary evil.

just like affirmative action. its tipping the balance towards the indians, since they had the balance tipped against them too much time, for them to have a chance to overcome this unfairness in a reasonable time-frame.

you may argue, that they are not killed anymore, and etc, etc, etc, so they dont deserve a "reparation".
BUT you cannot deny their chances today are no different from that of everyone else whose last 5 generations private properties were ripped off in the name if whatever (white man, progress, US, i dont care as its irrelevant).

and casinos, are a tool for them to make money. its not giving them money from the gvmt, but giving them a right to run an extremely profitable business.
is it unfair? yes, is it racist?? yes. but imo, other than this unfair meassure, it would be hard to tip the balance enough, to make it even. casinos are an unfair, but effective way of doing this.

and i dont think any problem with the poorness of indians as a whole can be attributed to the casinos themselves. their situations without casinos definately wont be any better imo.

maybe better laws regarding the yield distribution of casinos, or taxing the crap out of them to basically support college scholarships for indians, so that in maybe 30 years (or until indian wealth average and median get close to the national US average and median), the indian monolopy on the casino industry is no longer a law.

I'm not arguing that they don't deserve everything they get BUT the problem is that the majority aren't getting enough and even that is being hurt by the image that Indians are raking in the dough. Its an image thing. I'm with Skookum (I think) that the Tribes should tell California to f' off.

[Damn True]

Jesus is right i shouldn't have to pay a frikkin dime but i do pay and unlike alot of people i don't whine about it. Well not often at least....


Yah changed on June 1, 1924 (43 STAT. L 253) PROVIDES THAT ALL INDIANS BORN WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE UNITED STATES ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.

So you want representation without taxation?

[Silver]

So you want representation without taxation?

It's the least we can do after attempting genocid...I mean Manifest Destiny.

[ummbikes]

It's the least we can do after attempting genocid...I mean Manifest Destiny.

That reminds me of a saying one of my professors used to toss around, "Christopher Columbus was a poor navigator who also was a mass murderer." I think he pinched the saying from Howard Zinn. Oh, well that was a long, long, long, time ago so it doesn't matter. :blah:

On a side note our vote by mail ballets showed up Friday. So I feel safe in saying that I am one of the first people who can say I didn't vote for Bush.

[LordOpie]

how long does it take before we can stop worrying about what people did to the indians?

[Silver]

how long does it take before we can stop worrying about what people did to the indians?

Let's cross that bridge after we start to acknowledge what happened to the Indians. Baby steps, my friend.

[Jesus]

how long does it take before we can stop worrying about what people did to the indians?

If the gov'ment would leave them alone, and actaully keep their word on the subject, we wouldn't be discussing this.

Blame Arnie.

[LordOpie]

just seems odd that indians are getting compensation and blacks aren't.

[MikeD]

how long does it take before we can stop worrying about what people did to the indians?

I hope that was sarcasm, because if it wasn't, I'm about to tear into your desire for an ethnic homeland for Jews...I mean, I don't think it's an incomprehensible idea, especially in a post-holocaust world, but to think another ethnic group doesn't deserve redress while supporting the ideas of Zionism is pretty out there.

"What people did to the Indians" is kind of like walking onto the scene of a car wreck that your grandfather caused while in a bit of azlheimer's-induced road rage...you can try to help out as best you can with all the injured parties, clear up the wreckage, call the insurance companies...and no matter what, you're still related to the asshole who caused the accident. You might not feel personally guilty, but you're sure gonna be answering a lot of questions that old granddad can't because he's comatose, and will probably end up footing a lot of the bill. (and it's a good thing Granddad left you a lot of money in his inheritance!)

MD

MD

[Damn True]

Do Spain and France owe the Basques?
Does Brittian owe the Irish? The Scots?
Does Japan owe the Okinowans?
Does Spain owe Mayans, or natives of innumerable central and south American countries?


It would be better if the bad stuff that happend to Native Americans hadn't happend, but that is the way things go. All throughout history larger more powerful socities overwhelm smaller less powerful ones. The map of europe today looks nothing like it did 100, 200 years ago. The map of Africa today looks nothing like it did a few hundred years ago. Imperialism by the French Spainish, and Brits was responsible for some really horrible stuff, but it also created some industrialized countries that would still be in the dark ages if it had not been for their influence.

[LordOpie]

...but it also created some industrialized countries that would still be in the dark ages if it had not been for their influence.
you say that like it's a bad thing? Except for internet porn, the dark ages weren't that bad.

[fluff]

you say that like it's a bad thing? Except for internet porn, the dark ages weren't that bad.
They weren't even that dark.

[LordOpie]

They weren't even that dark.
haha, i alaways picture the dark ages as seriously over-cast cloudy.

[Tenchiro]

On a side note our vote by mail ballets showed up Friday. So I feel safe in saying that I am one of the first people who can say I didn't vote for Bush.

Hehe, mine too. Although I am still wondering if Kerry deserves my vote either...

[fluff]

haha, i alaways picture the dark ages as seriously over-cast cloudy.

That's Eastern Europe (before the fall of the Soviet Union) - always overcast and chilly. In fact, monochrome - they got colour several decades after the West.

[MikeD]

I thought everyone lived in Scotland in the Dark Ages...

[Skookum]

So you want representation without taxation?
Nope don't want to get ripped off by people looking to rip off the poor for the rich.
Many people on here don't want to get taxed either, do you voluntarily pay your state tax when you buy something online from another state? Does anybody here do that? Get off your high horse.....

[MikeD]

I don't think the Indian nations have representatives in Congress, do they?

Anyhow, I don't think America 'owes' the Indians anything at this point, except to hold to the treaties that were made! We can't 'make up for history,' except to acknowledge the past and move on despite it. Part of doing that in good faith means not breaking any more agreements when it's convenient.

Just like someone else said...when they had no money, no one worried about taxes. Now that they've found a way to make a buck, eveyone's crying foul. Screw that.

The only thing that's fishy is the amount of people who are suddenly 'indians' these days...screw that too! Non-tribal members also shouldn't be allowed to be involved in the business. There's way too much corruption and too many fat cats, both indian and white, getting rich while many indians really get zilch.

MD

[DRB]

I don't think the Indian nations have representatives in Congress, do they?

Anyhow, I don't think America 'owes' the Indians anything at this point, except to hold to the treaties that were made! We can't 'make up for history,' except to acknowledge the past and move on despite it. Part of doing that in good faith means not breaking any more agreements when it's convenient.

Just like someone else said...when they had no money, no one worried about taxes. Now that they've found a way to make a buck, eveyone's crying foul. Screw that.

The only thing that's fishy is the amount of people who are suddenly 'indians' these days...screw that too! Non-tribal members also shouldn't be allowed to be involved in the business. There's way too much corruption and too many fat cats, both indian and white, getting rich while many indians really get zilch.

MD

BINGO.

[Damn True]

Nope don't want to get ripped off by people looking to rip off the poor for the rich.
Many people on here don't want to get taxed either, do you voluntarily pay your state tax when you buy something online from another state? Does anybody here do that? Get off your high horse.....

Well, if your income is generated and spent entirely on a reservation then by all means you shouldn't be taxed.
Do you work on a reservation, and spend ALL of your money on a reservation?

If not, pay taxes, just like the rest of us.

[Skookum]

The only thing that's fishy is the amount of people who are suddenly 'indians' these days...screw that too! Non-tribal members also shouldn't be allowed to be involved in the business. There's way too much corruption and too many fat cats, both indian and white, getting rich while many indians really get zilch.

MD
You're opening up a whole other can of worms here..... You can go on and on about blood quantam issues, restricting the rights of tribes to hire outside of the tribe. While on the surface i agree with you, there still is alot more to it.
Just one example, i'm a roofer i sure could put a great roof on a casino, but i personally don't want to run one, nor do i have the qualifications to do so.... Besides the sound of slot machines and stench of cigarrette smoke drive me insane.....

[Silver]

Well, if your income is generated and spent entirely on a reservation then by all means you shouldn't be taxed.
Do you work on a reservation, and spend ALL of your money on a reservation?

If not, pay taxes, just like the rest of us.

Are Indian Casinos on tribal lands?

[MikeD]

Just one example, i'm a roofer i sure could put a great roof on a casino, but i personally don't want to run one, nor do i have the qualifications to do so.... Besides the sound of slot machines and stench of cigarrette smoke drive me insane.....

What? I thought this was like the Japanese and math! Are you sure you can't even deal blackjack?

[Skookum]

Well, if your income is generated and spent entirely on a reservation then by all means you shouldn't be taxed.
Do you work on a reservation, and spend ALL of your money on a reservation?

If not, pay taxes, just like the rest of us.
Isn't that what i wrote? I do pay my taxes...... ALOT of taxes trust me.
If you buy a candy bar in Oregon, i'll hold you accountable if you don't pay taxes on it when you return to California..... because that's your logic not mine.....

[Skookum]

What? I thought this was like the Japanese and math! Are you sure you can't even deal blackjack?
i find fireworks loud, obnoxious, and boring too.....

[LordOpie]

i find fireworks loud, obnoxious, and boring too.....
i'm gonna have to question your manhood now.

fire fire fire

[MikeD]

Last night, I came home, and my g/f was watching the Family Guy episode where Lois bets the car at the casino, and Peter has to go on a vision quest to get it back. It was pretty funny. His spirit animal is The Fonz.

MD

[Damn True]

Are Indian Casinos on tribal lands?

Well IF the Casinos were funded and operated ONLY by Indians (They arent) and IF the revenue ONLY went into the hands of Indians (it dosen't) and IF that revenue never made it back into the non reservation ecomonmy (it does) then certainly, they should not be taxed.

However, the overwhelming majority of the Casinos are funded by offshore (some cat from the UAE is the biggest financier) or NV Casino ownership groups. The majority of Casino employees are non-indian.

That revenue is padding the pockets of those financiers. Indian gaming is like a $15b industry. The tribes sure as hell aren't seeing that money. It is getting into the non reservation economy and therfore ought to be taxed.

[Damn True]

Isn't that what i wrote? I do pay my taxes...... ALOT of taxes trust me.
If you buy a candy bar in Oregon, i'll hold you accountable if you don't pay taxes on it when you return to California..... because that's your logic not mine.....

I may have misunderstood you.
I thought you were asserting that you should not be taxed regardless of where your income is generated or spent.

[MikeD]

However, the overwhelming majority of the Casinos are funded by offshore (some cat from the UAE is the biggest financier) or NV Casino ownership groups. The majority of Casino employees are non-indian.

That revenue is padding the pockets of those financiers. Indian gaming is like a $15b industry. The tribes sure as hell aren't seeing that money. It is getting into the non reservation economy and therfore ought to be taxed.

My point about corruption exactly. I can see how the Indians needed external funding to start up the casinos, but I think they had to give up a lot to do it. Yet another deal with the devil.

MD

[Skookum]

Well IF the Casinos were funded and operated ONLY by Indians (They arent) and IF the revenue ONLY went into the hands of Indians (it dosen't) and IF that revenue never made it back into the non reservation ecomonmy (it does) then certainly, they should not be taxed.

However, the overwhelming majority of the Casinos are funded by offshore (some cat from the UAE is the biggest financier) or NV Casino ownership groups. The majority of Casino employees are non-indian.

That revenue is padding the pockets of those financiers. Indian gaming is like a $15b industry. The tribes sure as hell aren't seeing that money. It is getting into the non reservation economy and therfore ought to be taxed.
Hmm interesting. You know you got a great point here. Tribes should tax non tribal members and make more money.

[MikeD]

And, if I may contradict myself slightly, I guess the Indians, as soveriegn nations, should be able to make deals offshore with whomever they want. It's not really the US's responsibility to make sure that wealth is evenly distributed within the nation, is it?

sorry, thinking out loud here.

Also, I think the idea of a genetic test to determine if you're in the tribe is ludicrous. It's a cultural thing, and you're either living as a member of the tribe or are not. Then again, I guess lots of people are born off a reservation and aren't taught much about their heritage...so they discover it and try to reclaim it later. Just happens that it's very profitable to do so in some cases, it seems.

Skooks, how many people actually manage to 'join' a tribe after the fact? Is it successful, generally? Does it mean a significant amount of money for said individual?

MD

[golgiaparatus]

We have 2 huge casino's (Creek Nation has the newest one, Cherokee is the oldest one) in my town now... on the river. Its funny, they started as massive bingo places, then they added Slot machines and Video Machines, then blackjack... now the Creek Nation has a full blown Casino with everything :rolleyes: Bring on the hookers and the sleeze.

[DRB]

And, if I may contradict myself slightly, I guess the Indians, as soveriegn nations, should be able to make deals offshore with whomever they want. It's not really the US's responsibility to make sure that wealth is evenly distributed within the nation, is it?

Most tribes do a decent job of sharing their gains amongest their own. The problem arises in that folks see the financial success of the Pequots (Foxwood) and think that most Indians are enjoying that level of success which is far from the case. Additionally, since each tribe is a nation in its own there is no sharing from tribe to tribe (or least not very often).


Skooks, how many people actually manage to 'join' a tribe after the fact? Is it successful, generally? Does it mean a significant amount of money for said individual?
MD

A friend of mine that is Cherokee gets about $6000 a year. So compared to Skookum's $500 that a lot but compared to the Pequots it ain't squat. He gets all bent out of shape when the Pequots come up because they somehow still get assistance from the BIA and HUD at the expense of poverty stricken tribes.

Edit: He donates his $6000 a year to some college scholarship fund for Indians (Native Americans?)

[Skookum]

Skooks, how many people actually manage to 'join' a tribe after the fact? Is it successful, generally? Does it mean a significant amount of money for said individual?

MD
i don't work in enrollement or know much about the council (they decide) but i do know that for my tribe it's rare to none... All tribes are different but here's the basics of my tribe. To be a tribal member you have to have at least 25% Indian blood from one of the bands/tribes that are part of the Colville Confederated Tribe. Any other blood regardless of other tribes or non-native blood doesn't count to that percentage. I've never heard of someone being enrolled into the tribe when they're 40 or whatever....




A friend of mine that is Cherokee gets about $6000 a year. So compared to Skookum's $500 that a lot but compared to the Pequots it ain't squat. He gets all bent out of shape when the Pequots come up because they somehow still get assistance from the BIA and HUD at the expense of poverty stricken tribes.

Edit: He donates his $6000 a year to some college scholarship fund for Indians (Native Americans?)
Yes how much revenue is raised from varied tribes depends on how big tribal membership is(monies are divied up to more people). Also location, how close is the res from metropolitan areas. Many reservations were placed far far away from cities so the lucky few that had cities grow around them, well looks like they win the "jackpot" . More power to em.....
i don't donate my per capita.... it's mine ALL MINE AAAHHAAAHAHAHA!!! :D
but believe me i don't do handouts either.....

[s1ngletrack]

We have 2 huge casino's (Creek Nation has the newest one, Cherokee is the oldest one) in my town now... on the river. Its funny, they started as massive bingo places, then they added Slot machines and Video Machines, then blackjack... now the Creek Nation has a full blown Casino with everything :rolleyes: Bring on the hookers and the sleeze.

Geez - You use the words hookers and sleaze like they are bad things :evil:

[Damn True]

I may have misunderstood you.
I thought you were asserting that you should not be taxed regardless of where your income is generated or spent.

[Skookum]

I may have misunderstood you.
I thought you were asserting that you should not be taxed regardless of where your income is generated or spent.
Jesus posted that and i was going along with him hypothetically, hey if enough people agree to it hell i'll run with that campaign! woo hoo. But come on, nobody here can see that happening whether it's justified or not.
As with the issue, it would defocus the argument that was on the board. Should tribes pay the state of California an inflated cut. Well they very well might just do it to keep their workers tied into the the states benefits. Just like Post and Pole in the small town of Inchelium Washington. But to me it's just a way for a european fraud with massive charisma finding a quick fix for fiscal irresponsibility of Californians over the years at the expense of peoples who most Californians could give a rat's fart over......

[DRB]

As with the issue, it would defocus the argument that was on the board. Should tribes pay the state of California an inflated cut.

That's the answer I can't find, why in his (Arnie's) opinion should the Tribes pay MORE than any other corporation would.

I don't think they personally should have to pay any but if they are the same seems fair enough.

[Damn True]

My understanding is that they are currently paying on the personal income tax schedule and the plan on the ballot would make them pay at the corporate schedule.

Is Arnie's gig something completely different?

Personally, I think that certain things (alcohol, tobbaco, and yes, gambling) should be taxed at higher rates. Call it a sin tax or a luxury tax, whatever. I think we all can agree that booze, smokes, and gambling are bad for people. If people have discretionary income enough to use on things that are bad for them we oughta be able to take it more.

And I mean tax the people consumer AND the producer of the commodity so yes, tax Phillip Morris, Anhauser Bush, and Ceasers Palace MORE than we would tax General Motors.

[Skookum]

My understanding is that they are currently paying on the personal income tax schedule and the plan on the ballot would make them pay at the corporate schedule.

Is Arnie's gig something completely different?

My whole point is the state really has no say and shouldn't. Tribes are only accountable to taxes on the federal level. They don't HAVE to participate in state benefits.
Look i really don't know anything about this particular circumstance but i'm guessing the tribes in Cali are using and dealing with the state in terms of employment on the reservations. Doesn't mean they HAVE to participate, but they'll lose the benefits Labor and Industries, Unemployment so on and so forth for their workers. it's all about money and i'm sure both parties will come to the table and work something out. But Arnie is comin into the bargaining table with a reckless hardline stance that reeks, but will look good to his constituents, especially ones who somehow feel entitled and somehow feel robbed, by the very fact that Indians are making money.
When you get the balance budgeted down there you can thank the Indians whose reservation falls within your state yet again, since you started out for free on "prime" Indian land in the beginning. Thank the Indians.... HA HA yeah right.....

[Damn True]

Ya know, there is a school of thought that says most of the "plight" of native Americans would be solved if they didn't live out in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs.

I think they have the right to live where-ever they please, however I think that one should have to deal with the ramifications of ones choices.

On a side note, there are assloads of Americans who intentionaly live in desolate areas so that they can remain on public assistance. Apparently there is a loophole in the system that allows public assistance to continue indefinitely if one lives more than "X" number of miles from "X" number of available jobs.

[Silver]

especially ones who somehow feel entitled and somehow feel robbed

You've just described every white conservative in California, you know...

[Skookum]

Ya know, there is a school of thought that says most of the "plight" of native Americans would be solved if they didn't live out in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs.

If those thinkers were taught the real deal in "school" they'd have learned that reservations were stuck out in the middle of nowhere on purpose, while the prime real estate like West Seattle was used by settlers.
Just one example Duwamish Tribe, Chief Sealth, whom Seattle was named after, his tribe was promised a reservation on West Seattle. The tribe still isn't federally recognized, therefore they are Indians without a tribe.... Maybe the next Indian you see passed out in the street has a story of why he/she's there.... hmm.....

I think they have the right to live where-ever they please, however I think that one should have to deal with the ramifications of ones choices.

Sheesh how does anyone respond to crap like this?
Ok here goes.... Not sure you're making any point other than to paint Indian people as lazy, welfare dependant people. But IF i were to buy into it i can easily reverse the logic and reflect it back on any race or class of people. Trailer Parks, Projects.... Damn these people for being POOR!!!!
Indians were told to move to reservations, now you're telling me they should move out? <insert middle finger here>
Home is home, everybody can understand that. There are jobs at home, now Casino jobs are available and people get their panties in a wad, because Indians actually are getting a good deal? What the fu$k dude?!?
And i know plenty of Indians working outside of the reservation, doing great work within the community outside of the reservation, just as there are Indians and people of all races working and LIVING on the res, but of course let's just ignore all of that...
On a side note, there are assloads of Americans who intentionaly live in desolate areas so that they can remain on public assistance. Apparently there is a loophole in the system that allows public assistance to continue indefinitely if one lives more than "X" number of miles from "X" number of available jobs.
Your message is sad, untrue, and pathetic. Thank you don't come again bye bye now.....

[Damn True]

Chill out cowboy, and consider an edit if not an apology.

I didnt say I agree with the assertion that indians should move to the city I said there are those who think that way. Its a matter of geography and economy not race, history and politics.

Here is where you began insulting me, I'll keep my reply on higher ground.
If it were me in that position, I think I would move. Mainly because I don't get all that attached to "places" and I'm materialistic as hell. The opportunity to live the way I want is greater in a city than it would be in avery rural area. However, if I chose to live somewhere far less urban than where I am now I would have to be willing to give up the opportunity to have a job that affords me the lifestyle and things I enjoy.

My message in regard to people intentionaly living in such a way as to take advantage of public assistiance is 100% true. There are rural communities in the Sierra's in which over 75% of the population is on public assistance. They are allowed to remain so because said towns are greater than "X" number of miles from a town with an appreciable amount of jobs. The overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of those towns aren't from there. The people that were from there moved out when the mining went in the toilet. These people moved there to take advantage of a loophole in the law. BTW, these people are overwhelmingly white.

[DRB]

My understanding is that they are currently paying on the personal income tax schedule and the plan on the ballot would make them pay at the corporate schedule.

Is Arnie's gig something completely different?

Personally, I think that certain things (alcohol, tobbaco, and yes, gambling) should be taxed at higher rates. Call it a sin tax or a luxury tax, whatever. I think we all can agree that booze, smokes, and gambling are bad for people. If people have discretionary income enough to use on things that are bad for them we oughta be able to take it more.

And I mean tax the people consumer AND the producer of the commodity so yes, tax Phillip Morris, Anhauser Bush, and Ceasers Palace MORE than we would tax General Motors.

He is against the initiative.

Schwarzenegger spokesman Vince Sollitto said the governor's comments about Indians "ripping us off" referred to tribes that back Proposition 70, which would allow the expansion of casinos in return for payments on par with state corporate taxes.

The other side of it would be that it would nullify agreements that he made with tribes already. I'm guessing that the amounts must be higher than the corporate rate.

I'm all for consumer based taxes especially on so called sin items. BUT if you are going to implement them don't just pick on the Indians.

[MMike]

If history is any indication.... I haven't read any of this thread, but I'd bet that I would agree with SKookum and disagree with True...

And I'm I the only who caught the irony of True calling an indian (native american), "cowboy"?

[MMike]

Damned indians just hand out SARS infected blankets anyway...

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/pics/southpk3.jpg

[Skookum]

Damned indians just hand out SARS infected blankets anyway...

From an Internet post by Mary Ritchie (ritchie@cs.uwp.edu) Fri, 2 Jul 1993. She addressed the question of whether Smallpox was really spread by blankets to American Indians


This reference [for the story of American Indians and deliberate smallpox spreading ]is from American Indian Holocaust and Survival: A Population History Since 1492, by Russell Thornton, 1987 (Norman: U. of Oklahoma Pr.) pp.78-79

It is also during the eighteenth century that we find written reports of American Indians being intentionally exposed to smallpox by Europeans. In 1763 in Pennsylvania, Sir Jeffrey Amherst, commander of the British forces....wrote in the postscript of a letter to Bouquet the suggestion that smallpox be sent among the disaffected tribes. Bouquet replied, also in a postscript,

"I will try to innoculate the[m]...with some blankets that may fall into their hands, and take care not get the disease myself."

....To Bouquet's postscript, Amherst replied,

"You will do well as to try to innoculate the Indians by means of blankets as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this exorable race."

On June 24, Captain Ecuyer, of the Royal Americans, noted in his journal:

"Out of our regard for them (i.e. two Indian chiefs) we gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the smallpox hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect."

(quoted from Stearn, E. and Stearn, A. "Smallpox Immunization of the Amerindian.", Bulletin of the History of Medicine 13:601-13.)


Thornton goes on to report that smallpox spread to the tribes along the Ohio river.

[Toshi]

that was some mighty advanced thinking about disease for 1763... europeans were still bloodletting, sheesh :think: i am far too lazy to look up original sources but i suspect much handwaving on the part of "fuzzy" anthropologists in there.