POTENTIALLY HUGE: Possible Saddam-Al Qaeda Link Seen in U.N. Oil-for-Food Program

[N8]

Possible Saddam-Al Qaeda Link Seen in U.N. Oil-for-Food Program
FOX News | Sept. 17, 2004 | Claudia Rosett and George Russell

Did Saddam Hussein use any of his ill-gotten billions filched from the United Nations oil-for-food program to help fund Al Qaeda?

Investigations have shown that the former Iraqi dictator grafted and smuggled more than $10 billion from the program that for seven years prior to Saddam’s overthrow was meant to bring humanitarian aid to ordinary Iraqis. And the Sept. 11 Commission has shown a tracery of contacts between Saddam and Al Qaeda that continued after billions of oil-for-food dollars began pouring into Saddam’s coffers and Usama bin Laden declared his famous war on the U.S.

Next to that door, a festive sign spells out in gold letters under a green flag that this is the office of MIGA, the Malaysian Swiss Gulf and African Chamber (search). Registered here 20 years ago as a society to promote business between the Gulf States and Asia, Europe and Africa, MIGA is a company that the United Nations and the U.S. government says has served as a hub of Al Qaeda finance: A terrorist chamber of commerce.

In a recent interview, U.S. Assistant Treasury Secretary Juan Zarate described MIGA as "a very good example of an investment company that is used as a shell to hide and move money."

READ MORE (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132682,00.html)

[valve bouncer]

Fox News.....bwahahahahahahaha, you keep upping the standards for toolness. Bravo.

[narlus]

tin foil hat alert.

[zod]

If it's not from the desk of Dan Rather it's CRAP!!! :rolleyes:

[$tinkle]

Fox News.....bwahahahahahahaha, you keep upping the standards for toolness. Bravo.
also on foxnews:
- coverage of hurricane ivan (we see it's now a tropical depression - BUSTED!)
- various sports scores (we all know numbers are used to LIE)
- stock reports (THAT story's ALWAYS changing)

is your problem that foxnews put this together, or that they had the gall to cite the 9-11 commission, UN documents, US Defense Contract Audit Agency, etc.?

i'm still poring over this now, but i will eagerly entertain your rebuffing of their story. Yes, this is red meat for the right, but i believe this has been internally vetted before going to print. If not, this will be fox's equvalent to the CBS docu-drama.

[fluff]

Having read that all I can say is it's easier to link Rumsfeld to Saddam and Bush to Bin Laden.

If there were any more ifs in that story there'd be a world shortage of 'i's and 'f's.

Come back when any of the conjecture has been substantiated.

[valve bouncer]

also on foxnews:
- coverage of hurricane ivan (we see it's now a tropical depression - BUSTED!)
- various sports scores (we all know numbers are used to LIE)
- stock reports (THAT story's ALWAYS changing)

is your problem that foxnews put this together, or that they had the gall to cite the 9-11 commission, UN documents, US Defense Contract Audit Agency, etc.?

i'm still poring over this now, but i will eagerly entertain your rebuffing of their story. Yes, this is red meat for the right, but i believe this has been internally vetted before going to print. If not, this will be fox's equvalent to the CBS docu-drama.
This isn't rocket science twinkle, everyone knows what a festering pile of crap Fox News is, what did the tool expect posting it here. The credibility of Fox News is shot to sh*t which automatically makes stories of this nature questionable. I suppose it could be true but that'd be a first for Fox News. Nice non-seqitirs about the hurricane too, that's frothers at their best right there. :thumb:

[$tinkle]

This isn't rocket science twinkle, everyone knows what a festering pile of crap Fox News is, what did the tool expect posting it here. The credibility of Fox News is shot to sh*t which automatically makes stories of this nature questionable. I suppose it could be true but that'd be a first for Fox News. Nice non-seqitirs about the hurricane too, that's frothers at their best right there. :thumb:
"everyone knows"??? that's it???

just what articles (or articles) has discredited foxnews? Old-york times has a full correction section every day, but not foxnews. Maybe you prefer stories that start off like this one:

Memos on Bush Are Fake but Accurate, Typist Says
By MAUREEN BALLEZA and KATE ZERNIKE

Correction Appended
.
.
.
Correction: Sept. 17, 2004, Friday

An article on Wednesday about disputed memos obtained by CBS News that cast doubt on aspects of President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard truncated a quotation from David Van Os, a lawyer for Bill Burkett, a retired National Guard officer whom Newsweek called a source of the memos. Asked what role Mr. Burkett had in raising questions about Mr. Bush's military service, Mr. Van Os posed a hypothetical chain of events in which someone - not Mr. Burkett, he said - reconstructed documents that the preparer believed existed in 1972 or 1973. Mr. Van Os then asked "what difference would even that make'' to the "factual reality of where was George W. Bush at the times in question and what was he doing?''

The article also misidentified the position held by Mr. Bush's father in the early 1970's. (That error also occurred on Saturday, Sunday and Tuesday in articles about the memos.) The elder Mr. Bush was ambassador to the United Nations from 1971 to January 1973, and chairman of the Republican National Committee from 1973 to 1974. He was no longer a Texas congressman. NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/15/politics/campaign/15guard.html?pagewanted=all)

[valve bouncer]

Keep stretching twinkie, I'm sure you'll find a kernel of truth somewhere in the Fox turd. More non-seqitirs as well I note. I don't recall in this thread holding other media outlets up to being the bastions of truth and honesty. Where did the "Old" York Times (stunning wordplay) reference come from?
Good point about the "everyone knows" comment though....I should really have said "everyone with a brain knows".......

[$tinkle]

Keep stretching twinkie, I'm sure you'll find a kernel of truth somewhere in the Fox turd. More non-seqitirs as well I note. I don't recall in this thread holding other media outlets up to being the bastions of truth and honesty. Where did the "Old" York Times (stunning wordplay) reference come from?are you referring to the hyperlink? What you need to do is "click" your mouse button (left for most, just one for apple users) while the "cursor" is atop the link.

in sum, it seems that foxnews is unfair & unbalanced just by saying so. If that's the case, then you *must* be a well-endowed gentleman.

[ohio]

Look, we could play "6 degrees of Saddam Hussein," or ANY billionare for that matter, and we're going to find out his money made it to some wierd places. Wait! Stop the presses. You mean money that a billionare in the middle east spent eventually made it bad people?

Trickle down economics does actually exist (it just won't support an economy).

The question is, did Saddam actively and purposefully support Al Qaeda? Of course not. We all know he didn't. He supported plenty of other terrorists. This is not hidden information... he's not trying to sneak this one by us. But Al Qaeda is NOT on that list.

[valve bouncer]

I see we are having comprehension problems today cream puff. What has the NYT got to do with the credibility of Fox. And yeah Fox is unfair and unbalanced and yeah it's probably bigger than yours.

[$tinkle]

NYT has much more credibility problems than FOXNews does. If that's not plain & simple, then you are both.

[Silver]

I'm pleasantly surprised that Fox didn't get Ann Coulter on the air screeching like a harpy that Hurricane Ivan was another example of how those communist storms are hiding around every corner, out to get us.

[Silver]

NYT has much more credibility problems than FOXNews does. If that's not plain & simple, then you are both.

True. Fox has kinda dropped the pretense of being vaguely objective...

[ALEXIS_DH]

hahahaha 10 billion bucks in 7 years????

dude, get real, that much money in poor countries would be waaaaaaay to noticeable for them to realize just now.

thats more than what iraq spent in military during 10 years!!!! do you truly think nobody will notice iraqs spending more in al-qaeda than in int own military????

[genpowell71]

Do you really think that you cant hide that much money? If you do, I have beach front property to sell you in Utah.

If you can make the money, it's easy to hide from anyone. ESPECIALLY if you dont put it in a financial institution. Iraqis are known to hide money in flower sacks in their houses. When the 101st raided the house where the sons of Saddam were killed they found a bit over 500K in One hundred dollar bills.

But I do agree with you about Fox, it is a pretty crappy news station...

[Changleen]

2 things:

1) I have posted at least two threads with detailed disections of the sham that is Fox news. Look them up if you want examples of that ****.

2) Could we all stop calling each other names, misquoting each other etc? It's pretty annoying after a while and just ends up making this place less interesting. 'Just the facts (and opinions), Ma'am.'

[Changleen]

Also:

Claudia Rosett is a consultant to FOX News and Journalist-in-Residence at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/

Hmm, Only a LITTLE unilateralist, pro-Israeli, right wing and Fascist. Just like Fox news :thumb:

[genpowell71]

1. Pro Israeli: Yes it is.
2. Right wing: Yes it is.
3. Facist: I could see it, but I think it kinda sit's right on the fence kinda like Kerry.

But I've asked this question in other threads, and I'll ask it agian here:

WHO CARES ABOUT THE ISRAELI'S????

Nothing they do at this point effects me or my family. We dont import anything from Israel thats crucial for economic stability. They have their problems, we have ours. Once in awhile they mix in. Let them do their own thing and forget about them.

One more thing, just out of curiosity... Why do you hate Israel so much?

[Changleen]

Actually, due to the US's uncritical support of Israel, Israel does affect the US considerably. It's the main reason why the US is so hated in the Arab world. I've also gon over this several times before - The US - especially under Bush - gives a green light to all Israel's actions dealing with Palestinians. Despite what the US media might like you to think, these arn't all exactly friendly.

As far as I am concerned, Israel is one of the worst 'terrorist' states. It oppresses and routinely kills and maims hundreds of Palestinians and the US says that's OK. For Bush to have an 'axis of evil' and for Israel not to be included in it is the worst type of hypocracy. It's OK for whitey to kill the Arab, but the Arab can't kill anyone, even other Arabs. The situation there is fvcked up and your President condones, and even encourages it.

I don't hate Israelis per say, I used to be friends with a few when I lived in London, but I have also met quite a few who are hateful, shortsighted, evil bastards. I DO hate Ariel Sharon (especially) and most Israeli politicians. There also exists a certain type of Jew who is utterly convinced of his supremacy to all other peoples, and his right to **** on everyone because of it. That is intollerable and a bunch of BS. I'm not saying that all Palestinians are peace loving hippies, but as part of the 'developed' world, Israel is behaving like a fascist state, always hiding behind their self perpetuated media shield as a victim of Palestinian terror. It's crap, it's hypocritical beyond belief and I hate it.

[genpowell71]

OK, there are a few flaws in youre argument:

1. The US has always been hated in the middle east, and will continue to be hated till the "infidel" is dead and all our lands belong to "the people of Allah"

2. You never hear where the Israeli military attacked, all you hear is crap like the Israelis attacked the west bank today inresponse to a suicide bombing of an Israeli bus". Mossad is very careful on targets they select. It isnt a random missle attack, I can assure you.

3. You got me on Ariel Sharon, he's a d*ck.

4. Your average Palestinian doesnt want peace, they want Jerusalem. They want ALL Israelis gone from "their" land. They are convinced that Israel belonged to them all along and all through out history.

5. The fact you use the phrase "its ok for whitey to kill arabs..." shows just how closed minded you are.

[fluff]

OK, there are a few flaws in youre argument:

1. The US has always been hated in the middle east, and will continue to be hated till the "infidel" is dead and all our lands belong to "the people of Allah"

The US has not always been hated in the US, prior to around 1950 the US was seen as a beacon of freedom and democracy. It is their subsequent support of unpopular Arabic regimes, support of Israel against Arab regimes and attacks on Arabic states that have generated the hatred.


2. You never hear where the Israeli military attacked, all you hear is crap like the Israelis attacked the west bank today inresponse to a suicide bombing of an Israeli bus". Mossad is very careful on targets they select. It isnt a random missle attack, I can assure you.


I suggest you try a different news source. It does get reported.

3. You got me on Ariel Sharon, he's a d*ck.

Agreed.

4. Your average Palestinian doesnt want peace, they want Jerusalem. They want ALL Israelis gone from "their" land. They are convinced that Israel belonged to them all along and all through out history.

The 'average' Palestinian does want peace. Its the politicos that don't. The average Palestinian also wants the ability and opportunity to live a life no worse than ayone else. Why is their claim to the land they lived on peacefully for generations next to Jews and Christians less valid than that of Jews who came from generations of living in Europe? The Bible?

5. The fact you use the phrase "its ok for whitey to kill arabs..." shows just how closed minded you are.
He was being sarcastic...

[Changleen]

OK, there are a few flaws in youre argument:

1. The US has always been hated in the middle east, and will continue to be hated till the "infidel" is dead and all our lands belong to "the people of Allah"

Sorry, but you're really wrong about this. Islam is not inherantly hedgemonistic - this is just a lie spun by GW and latched onto by certain factions of your media to ensure your support of the war on terror. I can only suggest that you have a look a decent look at Islam for yourself and don't accept the one-line answers you are being spoonfed. I mean, I could just as easily make any number of sweeping generalisations about the US. It wouldn't mean they are true...

2. You never hear where the Israeli military attacked, all you hear is crap like the Israelis attacked the west bank today inresponse to a suicide bombing of an Israeli bus". Mossad is very careful on targets they select. It isnt a random missle attack, I can assure you.

Again, this shows the weakness of your news sources. There are many independant and partisan sources of news for the middle east. You should try looking at some of them. Start with Google news rather than a US based source.

3. You got me on Ariel Sharon, he's a d*ck.

:thumb:

4. Your average Palestinian doesnt want peace, they want Jerusalem. They want ALL Israelis gone from "their" land. They are convinced that Israel belonged to them all along and all through out history.

Again, this is a sweeping generalization that is simply not true. Please read more about the subject and people involved before making such statements. Sure, there are people like this, but this just isn't the case. It's not even the policy of the major resistance groups.

5. The fact you use the phrase "its ok for whitey to kill arabs..." shows just how closed minded you are.
I'm afraid that even if you don't mean to be, you are the one being closed minded here, and it's probably the fault of the Media you choose for the most part.

Finally, none of those points are really anything to do with the thrust of my argument, which was: "Israel does affect the US considerably. It's the main reason why the US is so hated in the Arab world."

[jmvar]

Again I will state that in the Middle Eastern region are NOT the only region that hates US FOREIGN POLICY.......There are many other regions in the world that have felt the wrath of the US Government's manipulative, unfair, unbalanced, abusive ways of gaining what they want throughout the world. Does the rest of the world want the "infadel" to be dead and all the US land to belong to "the people of Allah"? No. Because the rest of the regions are mostly christian regions....

If you look at the past actions of the US Gov. throughout the world in the last 50 years, it is irrefutable that it has one goal. That is the rule the world by the way of the dollar. And I am not talking about the warm fuzzy stories you hear on your local news where the US gave "insert empovarished third world country" XXX millions of dollars in aide. I am talking about the overthrowing of elected officials, funding of repressive para-military groups, policies in the name of "The War on Drugs", the raping of agricultural economies, etc.

[$tinkle]

Sorry, but you're really wrong about this. Islam is not inherantly hedgemonistic - this is just a lie spun by GW and latched onto by certain factions of your media to ensure your support of the war on terror. I can only suggest that you have a look a decent look at Islam for yourself and don't accept the one-line answers you are being spoonfed. I mean, I could just as easily make any number of sweeping generalisations about the US. It wouldn't mean they are true...
then kindly help me with the following "spin":

Islam is an anti-civilization cult par excellence. It destroyed every civilization it touched and brought misery, poverty, ignorance and war in every country that it invaded!

~%90 of all violent conflict in the world today involve muslims fighting either the infidel/kuffars, or each other

1.4 BILLION Muslims in the World (that's about 1 in 4)
280 Million Americans
5½ Million Israelis Surrounded by 350 Million Arab Muslims!!!

and since fluff wanted to talk about the last 50 years...

The world population of Christians increased by 47%
The world population of Buddhists increased by 63%
The world population of Muslims increased by 235%
the world Jewish population has DECREASED by 4%

check out the last 50 years for the muslim population of antwerp, rotterdam, amsterdam, denmark, spain, france, indonesia...you may be starting to get the idea.

but, this may be all just spin. Let's see what their holy scriptures say about what a follower of muhammed should faithfully *cough* execute:

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

But did you know that there are 123 verses in the Quran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah? Here are but a few passages:

-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).

- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)

- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)



...but maybe i just took all of this out of context. Tell me: in what context would this be ok?

[jmvar]

This will be a little off topic but I think that it is worth a look in order to see what US Foriegn policy has done JUST in the Americas over the last 50 years. Here is the source: http://www.zompist.com/latam.html

The source maybe not be from the desk of the top media groups but I can assure you that all of these events are well documented and well known in Latin America.

1954
Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, elected president of Guatemala, introduces land reform and seizes some idle lands of United Fruit-- proposing to pay for them the value United Fruit claimed on its tax returns. The CIA organizes a small force to overthrow him and begins training it in Honduras. When Arbenz naively asks for U.S. military help to meet this threat, he is refused; when he buys arms from Czechoslovakia it only proves he's a Red.
Guatemala is "openly and diligently toiling to create a Communist state in Central America... only two hours' bombing time from the Panama Canal." --Life
The CIA broadcasts reports detailing the imaginary advance of the "rebel army," and provides planes to strafe the capital. The army refuses to defend Arbenz, who resigns. The U.S.'s hand-picked dictator, Carlos Castillo Armas, outlaws political parties, reduces the franchise, and establishes the death penalty for strikers, as well as undoing Arbenz's land reform. Over 100,000 citizens are killed in the next 30 years of military rule.
"This is the first instance in history where a Communist government has been replaced by a free one." --Richard Nixon
1957
Eisenhower establishes Office of Public Safety to train Latin American police forces.
! 1959
Fidel Castro takes power in Cuba. Several months earlier he had undertaken a triumphal tour through the U.S., which included a CIA briefing on the Red menace.
"Castro's continued tawdry little melodrama of invasion." --Time, of Castro's warnings of an imminent U.S. invasion
1960
Eisenhower authorizes covert actions to get rid of Castro. Among other things, the CIA tries assassinating him with exploding cigars and poisoned milkshakes. Other covert actions against Cuba include burning sugar fields, blowing up boats in Cuban harbors, and sabotaging industrial equipment.
1960
The Canal Zone becomes the focus of U.S. counterinsurgency training.
1960
A new junta in El Salvador promises free elections; Eisenhower, fearing leftist tendencies, withholds recognition. A more attractive right-wing counter-coup comes along in three months.
"Governments of the civil-military type of El Salvador are the most effective in containing communist penetration in Latin America." --John F. Kennedy, after the coup
1960
Guatemalan officers attempt to overthrow the regime of Presidente Fuentes; Eisenhower stations warships and 2000 Marines offshore while Fuentes puts down the revolt. [Another source says that the U.S. provided air support for Fuentes.]
1960s
U.S. Green Berets train Guatemalan army in counterinsurgency techniques. Guatemalan efforts against its insurgents include aerial bombing, scorched-earth assaults on towns suspected of aiding the rebels, and death squads, which killed 20,000 people between 1966 and 1976. U.S. Army Col. John Webber claims that it was at his instigation that "the technique of counter-terror had been implemented by the army."
"If it is necessary to turn the country into a cemetary in order to pacify it, I will not hesitate to do so." --President Carlos Arana Osorio
1961
U.S. organizes force of 1400 anti-Castro Cubans, ships it to the Bahía de los Cochinos. Castro's army routs it.
1961
CIA-backed coup overthrows elected Pres. J. M. Velasco Ibarra of Ecuador, who has been too friendly with Cuba.
1962
CIA engages in campaign in Brazil to keep João Goulart from achieving control of Congress.
1963
CIA-backed coup overthrows elected social democrat Juan Bosch in the Dominican Republic.
1963
A far-right-wing coup in Guatemala, apparently U.S.-supported, forestalls elections in which "extreme leftist" Juan José Arévalo was favored to win.
"It is difficult to develop stable and democratic government [in Guatemala], because so many of the nation's Indians are illiterate and superstitious." --School textbook, 1964
1964
João Goulart of Brazil proposes agrarian reform, nationalization of oil. Ousted by U.S.-supported military coup.
! 1964
The free market in Nicaragua:
The Somoza family controls "about one-tenth of the cultivable land in Nicaragua, and just about everything else worth owning, the country's only airline, one television station, a newspaper, a cement plant, textile mill, several sugar refineries, half-a-dozen breweries and distilleries, and a Mercedes-Benz agency." --Life World Library
1965
A coup in the Dominican Republic attempts to restore Bosch's government. The U.S. invades and occupies the country to stop this "Communist rebellion," with the help of the dictators of Brazil, Paraguay, Honduras, and Nicaragua.
"Representative democracy cannot work in a country such as the Dominican Republic," Bosch declares later. Now why would he say that?
1966
U.S. sends arms, advisors, and Green Berets to Guatemala to implement a counterinsurgency campaign.
"To eliminate a few hundred guerrillas, the government killed perhaps 10,000 Guatemalan peasants." --State Dept. report on the program
1967
A team of Green Berets is sent to Bolivia to help find and assassinate Che Guevara.
1968
Gen. José Alberto Medrano, who is on the payroll of the CIA, organizes the ORDEN paramilitary force, considered the precursor of El Salvador's death squads.
! 1970
In this year (just as an example), U.S. investments in Latin America earn $1.3 billion; while new investments total $302 million.
1970
Salvador Allende Gossens elected in Chile. Suspends foreign loans, nationalizes foreign companies. For the phone system, pays ITT the company's minimized valuation for tax purposes. The CIA provides covert financial support for Allende's opponents, both during and after his election.
1972
U.S. stands by as military suspends an election in El Salvador in which centrist José Napoleón Duarte was favored to win. (Compare with the emphasis placed on the 1982 elections.)
1973
U.S.-supported military coup kills Allende and brings Augusto Pinochet Ugarte to power. Pinochet imprisons well over a hundred thousand Chileans (torture and rape are the usual methods of interrogation), terminates civil liberties, abolishes unions, extends the work week to 48 hours, and reverses Allende's land reforms.
1973
Military takes power in Uruguay, supported by U.S. The subsequent repression reportedly features the world's highest percentage of the population imprisoned for political reasons.
1974
Office of Public Safety is abolished when it is revealed that police are being taught torture techniques.
! 1976
Election of Jimmy Carter leads to a new emphasis on human rights in Central America. Carter cuts off aid to the Guatemalan military (or tries to; some slips through) and reduces aid to El Salvador.
! 1979
Ratification of the Panama Canal treaty which is to return the Canal to Panama by 1999.
"Once again, Uncle Sam put his tail between his legs and crept away rather than face trouble." --Ronald Reagan
1980
A right-wing junta takes over in El Salvador. U.S. begins massively supporting El Salvador, assisting the military in its fight against FMLN guerrillas. Death squads proliferate; Archbishop Romero is assassinated by right-wing terrorists; 35,000 civilians are killed in 1978-81. The rape and murder of four U.S. churchwomen results in the suspension of U.S. military aid for one month.
The U.S. demands that the junta undertake land reform. Within 3 years, however, the reform program is halted by the oligarchy.
"The Soviet Union underlies all the unrest that is going on." --Ronald Reagan
1980
U.S., seeking a stable base for its actions in El Salvador and Nicaragua, tells the Honduran military to clean up its act and hold elections. The U.S. starts pouring in $100 million of aid a year and basing the contras on Honduran territory.
Death squads are also active in Honduras, and the contras tend to act as a state within a state.
1981
The CIA steps in to organize the contras in Nicaragua, who started the previous year as a group of 60 ex-National Guardsmen; by 1985 there are about 12,000 of them. 46 of the 48 top military leaders are ex-Guardsmen. The U.S. also sets up an economic embargo of Nicaragua and pressures the IMF and the World Bank to limit or halt loans to Nicaragua.
1981
Gen. Torrijos of Panama is killed in a plane crash. There is a suspicion of CIA involvement, due to Torrijos' nationalism and friendly relations with Cuba.
1982
A coup brings Gen. Efraín Ríos Montt to power in Guatemala, and gives the Reagan administration the opportunity to increase military aid. Ríos Montt's evangelical beliefs do not prevent him from accelerating the counterinsurgency campaign.
1983
Another coup in Guatemala replaces Ríos Montt. The new President, Oscar Mejía Víctores, was trained by the U.S. and seems to have cleared his coup beforehand with U.S. authorities.
1983
U.S. troops take over tiny Granada. Rather oddly, it intervenes shortly after a coup has overthrown the previous, socialist leader. One of the justifications for the action is the building of a new airport with Cuban help, which Granada claimed was for tourism and Reagan argued was for Soviet use. Later the U.S. announces plans to finish the airport... to develop tourism.
1983
Boland Amendment prohibits CIA and Defense Dept. from spending money to overthrow the government of Nicaragua-- a law the Reagan administration cheerfully violates.
1984
CIA mines three Nicaraguan harbors. Nicaragua takes this action to the World Court, which brings an $18 billion judgment against the U.S. The U.S. refuses to recognize the Court's jurisdiction in the case.
1984
U.S. spends $10 million to orchestrate elections in El Salvador-- something of a farce, since left-wing parties are under heavy repression, and the military has already declared that it will not answer to the elected president.
1989
U.S. invades Panama to dislodge CIA boy gone wrong Manuel Noriega, an event which marks the evolution of the U.S.'s favorite excuse from Communism to drugs.
1996
The U.S. battles global Communism by extending most-favored-nation trading status for China, and tightening the trade embargo on Castro's Cuba.

[jmvar]

then kindly help me with the following "spin":

Islam is an anti-civilization cult par excellence. It destroyed every civilization it touched and brought misery, poverty, ignorance and war in every country that it invaded!


My grandmother is from Lebanon and migrated to Venezuela in the mid '40s. She was also a Christian in Lebanon where she lived in a Christian community amongst Muslims. She was openly Christian, wears a cross on a necklace and carries a bibble everywhere she goes. In Venezuela there is a large Arab population that is Muslim. They migrated when there were great opportunities in Venezuel and the economy was booming. They were accepted into the society along with many Europeans and they thrived in small businesses they started. They assimilated into the society but kept their culture. There are no car bomb in Venezuela by Muslims, no suicide bombers on public buses or trains. They were treated as citizens and were given the same opportunities everyone else was given.

Maybe the leaders that the US has hand chosen to govern countries in the middle east should be looked at and there you will find why you can make this statement:

"Islam is an anti-civilization cult par excellence. It destroyed every civilization it touched and brought misery, poverty, ignorance and war in every country that it invaded!

If the US wants to stop terrorism, they need to stop investing in it.

[jmvar]

Does it state in the Bibble that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ will live have a long happy existance and their souls will guarded and respected even though they are not believers?

Does the Bibble not talk about death, war, and destruction?

[$tinkle]

i understand venezuela has lots of oil & lots of money woes.

here, let us "help"

[$tinkle]

john's revelation is scary as hell; it covers the trifecta of fear you listed.

"If you see Buddha on the street, kill him; for he is not the true Buddha; the true
Buddha is within." this was posted recently on Internet Infidel Discussion Forums (www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-90278).

i wish i were convinced that my assertion of islam was out of line. I want to believe it's a religion of peace, education, & prosperity. They aren't a mecca of anything but just Mecca. No breakthrough technologies of late, they aren't a beacon of human achievement & freedom. The only prosperity you see is due to the oil, & we are the #1 enabler. You catch history channel yesterday? The had an expose on the house of saud & the abject poverty juxtaposed with the 9,000 obscenly rich princes.

we need a shower.

[Pedalist]

None of the news media is accurate and all of it is biased. The Bush family owns part of Fox "noise" CNN is so far on the left side that I am not even sure if they know what the truth is anymore. I just got back from Iraq a few months ago and had the opprotunity if not misfortune to work around both news agencies. I saw them bating there subjects answers, and turning away from anyone that might say something a little bit politicaly incorrect for their point of veiw. I was washing one of my friends out of the inside of a tank one morning when CNN walked up and started asking me what had happened the night before. I began to tell them about a young boy that asked us for food and water, and how we refused to give him any because it is against the rules because it endagers the children and us. Well while he was creating a destraction another local came up along side the Bradley and dropped a block of c-4 and an anit personell mine inside of the open driver hatch. The c-4 was wrapped in tape and inside of coke can and the mine was affixed to the bottom. As soon as the c-4's fuse detonated the mine did as well. My buddy, (who I will not name out of respect) was turned into peices. I told CNN this they tried to say that we were in a fire fight,and that is when one of them shot us with a rocket propelled grenade. We were only running a checkpoint out side of a village because there was a funeral going on for a tribal leader and they wanted us to pull security so the insurgents would not interfere. CNN did not like the truth it was too brutal. America is all wrapped up in a hell of a mess. If it was right or wrong I don't know. If the end is near I don't know that either. I do feel more people are anti war now that some of these so called patriotic types are seeing there kids come home in boxes. I do know that we as soldiers are starting to get tired, and fed up with the whole mess. Bush or Kerry does not much matter who gets in. Neither one of them is gonna bring a quick end to the whole quagmire. I am just glad to be home and able to ride again. I am sure some of you will rip my post to shreds, and say things that are not so nice. You have to understand, I just did my job.

[golgiaparatus]

then kindly help me with the following "spin":

Islam is an anti-civilization cult par excellence. It destroyed every civilization it touched and brought misery, poverty, ignorance and war in every country that it invaded!

~%90 of all violent conflict in the world today involve muslims fighting either the infidel/kuffars, or each other

1.4 BILLION Muslims in the World (that's about 1 in 4)
280 Million Americans
5½ Million Israelis Surrounded by 350 Million Arab Muslims!!!

and since fluff wanted to talk about the last 50 years...

The world population of Christians increased by 47%
The world population of Buddhists increased by 63%
The world population of Muslims increased by 235%
the world Jewish population has DECREASED by 4%

check out the last 50 years for the muslim population of antwerp, rotterdam, amsterdam, denmark, spain, france, indonesia...you may be starting to get the idea.

but, this may be all just spin. Let's see what their holy scriptures say about what a follower of muhammed should faithfully *cough* execute:

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

But did you know that there are 123 verses in the Quran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah? Here are but a few passages:

-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).

- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)

- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)



...but maybe i just took all of this out of context. Tell me: in what context would this be ok?

Damn! I need to check out the Koran, sounds uplifting :rolleyes:
No wonder they are such a voilent people.

[jmvar]

Stinkle, you are using some quote from an internet discussion to base your position that the Muslim religion is not a peacefull one? I am sure that this is not what you base your position on but you are really stretching it with that quote.

Again, look at the conditions in which Middle Eastern countries have been in for the past 50 years. Look at who does business and is buddy buddy with the 9,000 obscenly rich princess. THere will be no breakthrough in technology in a country that does not let women vote, be educated or even leave their house without their husband. Who instated most the leaders that brought about this poverty and repression? The only prosperity you will see is due to oil, and the only people that enjoy that prosperity are the 9,000 princes and their pals. The middle easts' curse is that they have oil.....if they didn't have it, maybe then the US and the Europeans would meddle somewhere else and the Muslim religion would prosper and thrive like it did above any other religion centuries ago.

[jmvar]

Pedalist, I am sorry to hear about your friend. It is good to hear from someone that was there and has come back. I hope you do not have to go back. Enjoy the trails.

[$tinkle]

ok, i'll take after the NYT w/ yet another correction/revision:

islam, if you want to "find god", probably not so bad. It's obviously being exploited & the core message has been grossly distorted - kindly like the DNC - it's been hijacked by lesser, albeit powerful, people.

if i'm going to take a guess (if this forum will allow for such abuse), i'd say < %1 of those who claim to be followers are sharpening their fangs. So, that leaves a mere 14 million. Still a stark number, so it's (hopefully) south of that, too.

Pedalist: i'll never have any idea of what your last year has been like, and I thank God for your patriotism & service to our fine land. Your anecdotes are welcome anytime.

I agree w/ your assessment of the media. LordOpie & I subscribe to factcheck.org to help keep balance. Their article last week on bush & kerry & misinforming voters from the stump is nothing new but sobering: check it (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docid=260)

[ohio]

I am just glad to be home and able to ride again. I am sure some of you will rip my post to shreds, and say things that are not so nice. You have to understand, I just did my job.

Wow.

I don't know what else to say except thank you for posting that, and welcome home.

[Changleen]

then kindly help me with the following "spin":
Sure.

Islam is an anti-civilization cult par excellence. It destroyed every civilization it touched and brought misery, poverty, ignorance and war in every country that it invaded!
Rubbish. Islamic nations were part of the foundation of Civilization.
Read up on the Ottoman empire.

~%90 of all violent conflict in the world today involve muslims fighting either the infidel/kuffars, or each other
Can't argue against that in terms of numbers of individual conflicts, but the current major conflicts involve the US as well.

1.4 BILLION Muslims in the World (that's about 1 in 4)
280 Million Americans
5½ Million Israelis Surrounded by 350 Million Arab Muslims!!!

and since fluff wanted to talk about the last 50 years...

The world population of Christians increased by 47%
The world population of Buddhists increased by 63%
The world population of Muslims increased by 235%
the world Jewish population has DECREASED by 4%

check out the last 50 years for the muslim population of antwerp, rotterdam, amsterdam, denmark, spain, france, indonesia...you may be starting to get the idea.

So what? It's not like they pull others off the street and forcibly convert them like the Borg or something, they simply have a higher birthrate right now. I think what's more worrying is the general increase in religiousity.

but, this may be all just spin. Let's see what their holy scriptures say about what a follower of muhammed should faithfully *cough* execute:

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

But did you know that there are 123 verses in the Quran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah? Here are but a few passages:

-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

- Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).

- Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

- If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

- A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:78)

- Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

- Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

- A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

- A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

- Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

- Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

- Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)

...but maybe i just took all of this out of context. Tell me: in what context would this be ok?
The same context as it is in the Bible? The Koran is a book of stories, same as the bible - during times of war in their past there are plenty of passages in which leaders call on their followers to smite the sh1t out of their enemy - the Jericho walls thing, various little wars all have similar pasages in the bible.

'And I will strike down with great anger and furious vengence those who attempt to poison and destry my brothers, and you will know my name is the lord when I lay my vengence upon thee' (excuse the misquote if there is one) - The Koran is no different to any other stupid religious book.

Islam is no different to any other religion. It just happens to be widespread in a few countries that GW's hedgemonistic imperialist ambitions have their eyes on. Hence it's demonisation by your media and leadership.

[Changleen]

I actually think the fact we're discussing Islam vs. You/USA/Christianity is a sign of the victory of GW's spin campaign and demonisation tactics.

[$tinkle]

Islamic nations were part of the foundation of Civilization.
true; my point is more of a "what have you done lately"?The same context as it is in the Bible? The Koran is a book of stories, same as the bible - during times of war in their past there are plenty of passages in which leaders call on their followers to smite the sh1t out of their enemy - the Jericho walls thing, various little wars all have similar pasages in the bible.there is a level of abstraction to which this can be true. The differences i see are relevant to me, but not to you. Moving on...'And I will strike down with great anger and furious vengence those who attempt to poison and destry my brothers, and you will know my name is the lord when I lay my vengence upon thee' (excuse the misquote if there is one)jules? is that you? - The Koran is no different to any other stupid religious book. i feel guilty laughing at this one...Islam is no different to any other religion. i will take this to be the stock agnostic response

[Changleen]

true; my point is more of a "what have you done lately"?Who's keeping score? Some pretty architecturally cool Mosques have been built in the past few years - But the US judges will only give you a 2/10 for those sorts of achievements.. I can't imagine 50 inch plasma TVs, supporting regeimes that kill arabs and invading countries in the middle east score too well with the Islamic Judges either.

there is a level of abstraction to which this can be true. The differences i see are relevant to me, but not to you.That's fine. It's your right to believe whatever you want...for now...

Moving on...jules? is that you?Someone else posted this the other day, if it wasn't for that I wouldn't have remebered it :D
i feel guilty laughing at this one...Catholic guilt? :)i will take this to be the stock agnostic responseSure - although what I really meant to say is: Stupid Islam is no different to any other stupid religion, all religion is stupid. No offence. :D

[$tinkle]

back on topic...

what is amazing to me is that al-qaeda & hussien "cannot be reasonably linked", but swifties & bush absolutely are:
NYT graphic (http://nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/08/19/politics/campaign/20040820_SWIFT_GRAPH.html)
identical content found at johnkerry.com (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/web_of_connections.pdf)

(FEC violations???)

[genpowell71]

N8 are you using changleen as a second screen name you liberal fvck?

[genpowell71]

Pedalist, I sympathize with you on the loss of a buddy, I lost a few good friends in my time in Mosul. I can agree with you about the news sources. I talked to the BBC in Karbala last April, and all they were interested in was weather or not we had attacked any Mosques. My PSG was interveiwed by CNN, and he got asked "Do you think your actually making any progress in the war on terrorism?" Fox's news coverage wasnt much better, We took a pair "journalists" with us on the way through Iraq, and all they wanted to do was talk to Iraqi's about the American soldier and our "efforts to help". Unbiased news sources are right out the window anymore. I can't honestly believe that all the rest of you would actually believe the crap that comes out of any anchor's mouth. Why would you want to listen to someone that wont put up both sides of the story (i.e. CNN, CBS, BBC)

[Changleen]

N8 are you using changleen as a second screen name you liberal fvck?
No, he fvcking isn't! You'd better take that back! :eek:

[Changleen]

Why would you want to listen to someone that wont put up both sides of the story (i.e. CNN, CBS, BBC)

I really feel I have to stick up for the Beeb here, they are generally pretty good at presenting both sides of a story, way better than those other two entertainment channels you mentioned. Just becuase a reporter choose to persue on side of an argument with you, doesn't mean you will be the only person they interview, and also doesn't mean that the story won't be edited, added to, or in many other ways contributed to by other reporters.

Often the Beeb say stuff like 'we're hearing from a lot of sources on the ground that...' implying they've interviewed a bunch of people, not just rolled up to the first punter they can find.

[genpowell71]

:blah: Make me

[Changleen]

Well I guess since you've turned out to be the sort of person who thins NZ/Sheep jokes are funny then I don't give a sh1t what you think...

[genpowell71]

Let me get this straight, all though out the political forum you've managed to spew your liberal views. You've condoned an American talking about how this country needs to be attacked again by terrorists and extremists. You've also bashed on our media, our political system and both of our presidential candidates. You've fired off joke after joke and never batted an eye. Now when I make a JOKE about you being related to sheep you get all offensive...

Sounds like someone needs a nappy nap!!

[genpowell71]

I really feel I have to stick up for the Beeb here, they are generally pretty good at presenting both sides of a story, way better than those other two entertainment channels you mentioned. Just becuase a reporter choose to persue on side of an argument with you, doesn't mean you will be the only person they interview, and also doesn't mean that the story won't be edited, added to, or in many other ways contributed to by other reporters.

Often the Beeb say stuff like 'we're hearing from a lot of sources on the ground that...' implying they've interviewed a bunch of people, not just rolled up to the first punter they can find.


How many positive stories have you seen about Iraq/Afghanistan on the BBC? Not many I'd wager

[Changleen]

Now when I make a JOKE about you being related to sheep you get all offensive...


Yeah, Sorry. I was a little stressed earlier. You can blame Nicklin for being such a dork and my boss.

I'd just like to point out, though that at no point did I condone the Amerian killing. I was ragging on the response to it.

[Changleen]

How many positive stories have you seen about Iraq/Afghanistan on the BBC? Not many I'd wager

Positive? There's nothing positive about the situation from either/any side.. I think you mean stories that highlight both the limited sucess the US is having as well as the **** that's happening?

[genpowell71]

And yes, I do find sheep jokes funny...

[Changleen]

So the cowboy goes out to seek his fortune on the frontier of the old West. He finally settles on a ranching town near the very edge of civilization. So near, in fact, that there aren't any women to be found for love nor money. Well, he's young and full of hormones, and after a month, he starts getting randy, so he goes to the saloon to ask around. After a couple of sort of nervous, whispered conversations, it comes out that you use the sheep. Well, our hero isn't real happy about this, but he's really desperate. He buys a bottle to nerve himself up. He goes and finds the nearest flock, and decides that if he's going to do this at all, he's going to do it right. He spends most of the afternoon picking out the prettiest sheep in the flock. He shampoos her wool and ties ribbons around her neck. Puts a little bell on her collar. He's also getting pretty drunk. By evening, he's done cleaning up the sheep, and not thinking real clearly. He's so proud of the way the sheep looks, he decides to take her in to town and show her off at the saloon. He walks in with the sheep, and the room goes quiet. Everybody's staring at the guy. And not just staring, but kinda recoiling in shock and horror. He's ashamed, but he's drunk enough; he slurs out, "Whassamada, I thought ever'body went out to the sheep?" Finally, one old timer pipes up. "Yeah, boy, but you got the sherrif's girl."

[genpowell71]

Positive? There's nothing positive about the situation from either/any side.. I think you mean stories that highlight both the limited sucess the US is having as well as the **** that's happening?

How about freeing people from the Taliban? Dont tell me as liberal as you are, you dont support women's rights to basic freedoms. Well, in Afghanistan, they have them now. 2 years ago they didnt. See, something positive. You also cant tell me you'd rather have all of the Al-queda running around Afghanistan. Again, something positive.

YOu just have to look for the good things

[genpowell71]

So the cowboy goes out to seek his fortune on the frontier of the old West. He finally settles on a ranching town near the very edge of civilization. So near, in fact, that there aren't any women to be found for love nor money. Well, he's young and full of hormones, and after a month, he starts getting randy, so he goes to the saloon to ask around. After a couple of sort of nervous, whispered conversations, it comes out that you use the sheep. Well, our hero isn't real happy about this, but he's really desperate. He buys a bottle to nerve himself up. He goes and finds the nearest flock, and decides that if he's going to do this at all, he's going to do it right. He spends most of the afternoon picking out the prettiest sheep in the flock. He shampoos her wool and ties ribbons around her neck. Puts a little bell on her collar. He's also getting pretty drunk. By evening, he's done cleaning up the sheep, and not thinking real clearly. He's so proud of the way the sheep looks, he decides to take her in to town and show her off at the saloon. He walks in with the sheep, and the room goes quiet. Everybody's staring at the guy. And not just staring, but kinda recoiling in shock and horror. He's ashamed, but he's drunk enough; he slurs out, "Whassamada, I thought ever'body went out to the sheep?" Finally, one old timer pipes up. "Yeah, boy, but you got the sherrif's girl."

Good one!!! :nuts:

[Changleen]

How about freeing people from the Taliban? Dont tell me as liberal as you are, you dont support women's rights to basic freedoms. Well, in Afghanistan, they have them now. 2 years ago they didnt. See, something positive. You also cant tell me you'd rather have all of the Al-queda running around Afghanistan. Again, something positive.

YOu just have to look for the good things

I totally agree there are some small positive effects coming from regeime change in Iraq - there is now a chance for Iraq to sort itself out and there is a chance Afghanistan might be a bit more free.

I do look for the good things, but I don't see many of them, an sometimes, when I do see them they turn out to be lies.

Your asumption that women in Afghanistan now have freedom is just such as case in point. Sorry, but it's not true.

The American-puppet government (Yes it is a puppet government, spend 5 minutes looking at the background at it's members) only has a decent level of control around the capital, and every day that goes by, local warlords gain more power in the rest of the country.

Most of these guys are pretty 'fundamentally' minded (i.e. full on sharia law), so really for most of the population nothing has changed, other than that some of their relatives are now dead, there are sanctions on their already f*cked economy and they hate America more than ever. Great. http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=16446But focusing on the logistics draws attention away from the real issues: that Karzai has little power beyond the daylight hours in Kabul, that in order to maintain what power he has he’s been forced to play ball with the unsavory war criminals that control much of the country, and that the lives of ordinary Afghanis are little-changed from what they experienced under the wretched Taliban.Google for 'Problems in Afghanistan' and you will get nearly hundreds of hits, mostly comprising of reports from Aid agencies, Non-governmental organisations, various media organisations, all detailing the actual situations there - not what George Bush, CNN and FOX want you to hear. Sometimes I really can't believe how much Bush and Karzia spout crap about the forthcoming elections when in reality they ar going to be beyond a joke.

Look at this from today's news:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3041686a12,00.html

With US-backed interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and Afghan President Hamid Karzai in the hall, Bush vowed the United States would not be blown off course by daily violence or the beheading of hostages.

Both US allies survived assassination bids this month. Karzai's authority does not reach far beyond his Nato-policed capital, Kabul, while Allawi's embryonic security forces and their US-led backers have lost control of several cities and face mounting bloodshed by insurgents.

Vowing elections would go ahead in January despite the mayhem, Allawi told reporters he had pressed Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf to contribute troops to the US-led multinational force. Did you know the US only sent 11,000 troops to Afghanistan? The population is 28 Million! There are more Cops in Manhattan and Afghanistan is 647,500km² of mostly mountainous terrain. The borders are 65,529km long! Even if EVERY troop did border patrol, there would still be massive gaps in it. It's a joke, like nearly everything that George Bush does.

The point I, as a 'liberal', as an outsider, as someone who has lived in the US for a few years is this:

George Bush is the Worst President of the US in history.
Joking aside, actually doing nothing at all during his Presidency would be far better than anything he touches.

He has ****ed up your country. He is helping polluters on a scale that makes you think he must hate trees. He created the war on terror and his actions have perpetuated it. He uses the Army and the country for his own aims and business objectives. He lies to you and uses the press to lie to you too. You are loosing freedoms. You're being manipulated into hating Islam. You've lost your respect in the international community.

What does it take to get some people to see this? All you have to do to start to stop this slide into the Abyss, is to not vote for the fvcker in November. That's what I'm saying.

[LordOpie]

Yeah, Sorry. I was a little stressed earlier. You can blame Nicklin for being such a dork and my boss.
Nick's your boss?

[Changleen]

Ha - thankfully not.

[fluff]

How many positive stories have you seen about Iraq/Afghanistan on the BBC? Not many I'd wager

I have posted a few links to positive Iraqi stories here myself. Sadly it seems the situation is deteriotating and positive stories seem harder to find:

Fairly balanced report from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3675538.stm)

[Changleen]

I know he probably doesn't want to be on fire, but his helmet looks SO COOL with flames coming off it:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40093000/jpg/_40093686_fire203.jpg

[genpowell71]

I agree with you there. The positive things are getting tougher to find. I will say this in defense of the US military to which I serve. Just because it isnt in the news, doesnt mean there arent good things happening. When you get down to the smaller units and patrols, alot of things continue to go right. Bomb makers get captured, minor terrorists get caught. My company (no ****e) raided a house and found a weapons cache with about 20 rockets, 50 AK-47s (see the gun problems isnt only in America HA) and a few thousand bullets. I do know that Al-queda has had a hand in training some of the militants there. We found alot of partially completed cell phone explosives right before we left. They used the same calling card in Afghanistan when they tried to assassinate the northen alliance leaders. I know the one group you never hear about in the news is the Special Ops and the CIA crews there. I had the pleasure of being loaned out to them from time to time, and I'm here to tell you that their batting average for finding who they are after is over 80%

[genpowell71]

I know he probably doesn't want to be on fire, but his helmet looks SO COOL with flames coming off it:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40093000/jpg/_40093686_fire203.jpg


Simon says: Set your buddy's helmet on fire, then beat in him with a big club

[MikeD]

'And I will strike down with great anger and furious vengence those who attempt to poison and destry my brothers, and you will know my name is the lord when I lay my vengence upon thee' (excuse the misquote if there is one)

You can forget the divine authority of the Bible with that quote, unless you're a practicing Tarantintonian...I'm 99% sure it's just movie dialouge and not a real quote.

The Bible does say lots of fun stuff, though...here's the famous "response to Dr. Laura" letter:

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[valve bouncer]

Always a classic Mikey. But, yeah, why can't you own Canadians? Seems reasonable;)

[$tinkle]

aaron sorkin liked that letter of dubious origin so much he wrote it into the West Wing episode "Midterms".

you do realize it's called the old testament for a reason, ya?

[fluff]

aaron sorkin liked that letter of dubious origin so much he wrote it into the West Wing episode "Midterms".

you do realize it's called the old testament for a reason, ya?

It seems that it is the 'old' testament when it's embarrassing to Christians yet still valid when they want to kill the infidel...

I'm confused. Anyone else?

[valve bouncer]

It seems that it is the 'old' testament when it's embarrassing to Christians yet still valid when they want to kill the infidel...

I'm confused. Anyone else?
Mate, I'm still waiting for the bull barbecue, that sounds like fun. ;)

[$tinkle]

i am the infidel.



uh-oh...

[MikeD]

aaron sorkin liked that letter of dubious origin so much he wrote it into the West Wing episode "Midterms".

you do realize it's called the old testament for a reason, ya?

Yeah, but...do you know which of the Koran's books those statements you quoted are from? They might be from parts that most Muslims would rather ignore, too.

Likewise, any short statement out of context can be horriffic...look at your Buddha quote. It's meant to convey a number of things, but not as a literal endorsement of murder... Same could be said of many references to jihad. They can, and are, often used in discussing internal/spiritual struggles than armed combat. They can also be used to justify armed combat if need be...but aren't necessarily any more *inherently* violent than the religion of medieval crusaders.

None of this is to be taken as evidence that mainstream middle eastern (and elsewhere) muslims don't generally hate the US for its policies, by the way...on the contrary, more people, in fact the majority of them in the middle east, sympathize with Al Queada's viewpoint, if not overtly with their methods. Many, many more than the political leadership of either party would have you believe. Anti-US feeling is not a 'radical' islamist viewpoint anymore.

MD

[Silver]

Yeah, but...do you know which of the Koran's books those statements you quoted are from? They might be from parts that most Muslims would rather ignore, too.

Likewise, any short statement out of context can be horriffic...

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

C'mon, we need more short statements of black and white viewpoints that are completely out of touch with reality than we need very reasoned and sober debate...

[Jesus]

You can forget the divine authority of the Bible with that quote, unless you're a practicing Tarantintonian...I'm 99% sure it's just movie dialouge and not a real quote.

It's not in the Bible, it was made up.

And if anyone should know, I would. :thumb:

[MikeD]

Mate, I'm still waiting for the bull barbecue, that sounds like fun. ;)

Well, the bull's sure flying these days in every direction...just find a pile on the ground and light 'er up! Maybe you can roast a hot dog (or a big aussie shrimp) over the burning 'fuel...'

MD

[Andyman_1970]

The Bible does say lots of fun stuff, though...here's the famous "response to Dr. Laura" letter:

Wow posting something from someone who apparently has no clue about either the Bible or either Judaism or Christianity.............cool........... :thumb:


Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

Part of the "moral law" of the Torah, of course if you were familiar with the Scriptures be them Jewish or Christian you'd know that.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

This is pertaining to the Temple and or the Tent of Meeting, neither of which exist today, what's the point?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

Huh, read the Text, it's not a command TO sell your daughter, it's and "if" he does. The passage governs the process of doing that if you sell your daughter, not TO do it. This is an example of the difference between the cerimonial law (for Temple worship), the moral law (for your relationship with God) and the civil law (your relationship with other people), each of which has a different authority and relevance. Again, a wonderful display of the ignorance of the context in which this passage was given.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Cerimonial law issue, since the Temple is no longer around, what's the point?

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

See my statement about the daughter in slavery.

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Are you an elder, judge, or Levite, then no...........LOL

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

One is a cerimonial law issue, one is a moral law issue, gee I wonder which one is which???

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

And when do you plan on going to the Temple?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

There is no death sentence for that.

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

It makes you cerimonialy unclean to go to the Temple to offer sacrafices, when are you going to the Temple?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Do you really know what blaspheming means? This is indended for those in the Jewish community, if your supposed uncle is not a Jew, then how is he under this law?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Now I'm not here to "stick up" for Dr. Laura. My point is those who are ignorant of the Bible, it's context both historically and culturally, have no clue what those seemingly silly commands really say and who they apply to, or if they even apply today.

Why is it "not ok" for say a conservative to take a quote or document out of context, but it's "ok" for those who do not agree with say the Bible to "cut and paste" out of context?????????? :confused:

Anyway, sorry for the rant, this is one of my "soapbox" issues..........

[MikeD]

Andyman, that was posted just to show how ridiculous it is to take things out of context...just like people do with the Koran all the time.

You can step off the soapbox if you like; you've helped prove the point.

MD

Edit: Of course we could get argumentative, and say that the biblical quotes above do indeed sanction slavery, simply by giving directions on how to do it...even though there's no imperitive to sell anyone, there's a set of rules by which to do it.

You do have to admit that there's not a lot of relevance with many of these laws to today's society, which I think is a major point of yours anyhow. The real point of this post is that the Koran is the same way, and sounds just as ridiculous when cut up and pasted N8 style. (and again, that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of guys killing people thinking that the Koran is justifying it...)

MD

[Andyman_1970]

Andyman, that was posted just to show how ridiculous it is to take things out of context...just like people do with the Koran all the time.

You can step off the soapbox if you like; you've helped prove the point.

MD

That wasn't nessecarily a rail on you Mike (I realize you were using that to make a point and not as your position per se) or anyone on here specifically, just a general "rant". I realize it was a joke, but knowing how some on here take the Scriptures out of context, I felt like clarifying somethings.............it's been so long since we've had a good religion thread............ :(

[fluff]

it's been so long since we've had a good religion thread............ :(
Only because you keeping PM-ing them. I keep trying...

[Andyman_1970]

Only because you keeping PM-ing them. I keep trying...

Fluff you trouble maker...................... ;)

Step up to the plate man, start a religion thread.................come on you know u want to do it............... :devil:

[ohio]

good religion thread

Is that an oxymoron or a contradiction in terms?

[Andyman_1970]

Is that an oxymoron or a contradiction in terms?

Neither, you can have a good religion thread, when everyone plays nice........lol.

Ok, we won't use the word religion, a good "spiritual" thread................. ;)