CNT - Easton Carbon Nanotubes

[Acadian]

So I was reading about how Easton new carbon fiber technology involving infusing resin and fiber with evenly distributed carbon nanotubes. They claim it's incredibly tough and stronger than steel.

Carbon experts? Thoughts on this?
http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4578
http://alwaysmad.com/gallery/data/529/4DSC01021.JPG

[Acadian]

fixed a typo...had to delete the thread in order to fix the title..

[Transcend]

carbon nanotubes are supposed the be theoretically the lightest and strongest molecules to build things with. I didnt know anyone had actually produced ANYTHING with them as of yet besides basic building blocks, let alone bike parts.

Is it just an easton marketing catch word? or are they actually using carbon nanotubes?

info here on nanotubes: http://www.pa.msu.edu/cmp/csc/ntproperties/

[Acadian]

carbon nanotubes are supposed the be theoretically the lightest and strongest molecules to build things with. I didnt know anyone had actually produced ANYTHING with them as of yet besides basic building blocks, let alone bike parts.

Is it just an easton marketing catch word? or are they actually using carbon nanotubes?

info here on nanotubes: http://www.pa.msu.edu/cmp/csc/ntproperties/

see the link I posted above.

plus there is an article in the latest issue of Bicycle retailer

[FlipSide]

Is it just an easton marketing catch word?


I'm pretty sure it is. The cost of carbon nanotubes is still way too high to build consumers items with it.

[Transcend]

I'm pretty sure it is. The cost of carbon nanotubes is still way too high to build consumers items with it.

That is what I was thinking. The defense industry is still trying to build aircraft bodies out of the things (as mentioned above, uniforms as well).

The amount of energy it requires to actually produce the things is insane from what i have read. It is a GREAT technology if they are actually using it.

[Acadian]

no word on pricing...just


Carbon nanotubes includes EC90 seatposts, all mountain bike handlebars, Delta Force Bullhorns aero bars, forks and Aero Force carbon extensions - all of which will be at Interbike.

[Acadian]

another quote


Easton uses actual carbon nanotubes. A carbon nanotube is an array of carbon atoms joined together with a covalent bond, while the clay offers no structural value.

[Transcend]

Ok i read the article. It basically didn't say WHAT was being done in relation to the parts. I will assume it is simply a catch phrase easton is using to hype it's products. A bar would be relatively simple to make with nanotubes, but it would cost an absurd amount, probably in the thousands of dollars.

[MikeD]

The amount of energy it requires to actually produce the things is insane from what i have read. It is a GREAT technology if they are actually using it.

What you don't know about are Easton's plans to drill into the core of the earth and harness the energy of the hot, liquid mag-ma inside... muuuuuuuahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Seriously, though, if there will be consumer applications for this tech, wouldn't handlebars be an easy way to start? It's relatively simple...

but I'm still not paying $150 for a damned handlebar.

[Transcend]

What you don't know about are Easton's plans to drill into the core of the earth and harness the energy of the hot, liquid mag-ma inside... muuuuuuuahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Seriously, though, if there will be consumer applications for this tech, wouldn't handlebars be an easy way to start? It's relatively simple...

but I'm still not paying $150 for a damned handlebar.

Preperation H is great, on the whole.


Ya, a bar would be a great place to start..but from mcdonnald douglas or something. Last person i would expect would be easton. Nasa hasn't even got a grip in using the things yet from what I understand.

[MikeD]

I heard NASA had a full-nanotube DH bike, but they rode it on the Red Bull Rampage course in Utah, and the rider crashed, making a smoking hole in the ground...

[Incubus]

I heard NASA had a full-nanotube DH bike, but they rode it on the Red Bull Rampage course in Utah, and the rider crashed, making a smoking hole in the ground...

LOL...

[Transcend]

I heard NASA had a full-nanotube DH bike, but they rode it on the Red Bull Rampage course in Utah, and the rider crashed, making a smoking hole in the ground...

they hired bender to test ride it didnt they? Silly government people.

[MikeD]

they hired bender to test ride it didnt they? Silly government people.

Oh, man, why didn't you think of that when the probe crashed? That would have been a perfect caption for the pic... "Bender testrides new Banshee UBERDROPPER in Virgin, UT..."

[binary visions]

That's what's actually in the Honda gearbox. It's a tiny little nanotube factory powered by Minaar's legs...

[Acadian]

I should know better next time than to ask a serious question!! :rolleyes:



;)

[MikeD]

That's what's actually in the Honda gearbox. It's a tiny little nanotube factory powered by Minaar's legs...

No, it's powered by gnomes. I thought we'd established this.
I will call him... mini-minaar.

[zedro]

maybe you guys are thinking about the elusive 'bucky-balls' instead?

[binary visions]

No, it's powered by gnomes. I thought we'd established this.
I will call him... mini-minaar.
Oh, come on now. If you were Honda, do you think you'd spend all of your R&D money hiring gnomes to make some schmuck on a downhill bike go faster, or would you try to harnass his energy to produce futuristic technology?

The only reason they didn't get Lance to do it is because they couldn't fit the production machine inside that skinny roadie tubing - downhill is the only place where that huge box doesn't look totally out of place...

[B-boy]

another version of the same story.. http://news.com.com/Nanotubes+race+toward+bike+parts/2100-7337_3-5341144.html?part=rss&tag=5341144&subj=news.7337.5

[oly]

I kept reading this thinking what does stans notubes have to do with bars.......

[syadasti]

maybe you guys are thinking about the elusive 'bucky-balls' instead?

Yes, they aren't the same thing. Maybe they could make a BFCUNT bar (no I mean Buckyball Filled Carbon Ultra NanoTubes) :

Buckyball-filled Nanotubes (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0006A9C6-89F6-1C6A-84A9809EC588EF21)


From 1998, WSJ:

Though prices have dropped over the years, buckyballs, still cost from $25 to $200 a gram, depending on their purity. That’s something like $11,000 or more a pound. For any commercially viable product, buckyballs need to cost well under $100 a pound.

[FlipSide]

Here's a website of a company that sell single-wall carbon nanotubes... (http://carbolex.com/)


More than 100 grams : $60/g
50-100 grams : $80/g
Less than 50 grams : $100/g

For multi-wall carbon nanotubes, it's about 10X less expensive.
http://www.mercorp.com/mercorp/Nanotubes/mer-nanotubes.pdf

[dw]

Thats only several grand for a pair of bars, not bad!

[Acadian]

Thats only several grand for a pair of bars, not bad!

something roadies WOULD pay for ;)

[binary visions]

Thats only several grand for a pair of bars, not bad!

Does that mean it's only a couple grand if you only have one bike and don't need a pair?!

;) :D

[Acadian]

Does that mean it's only a couple grand if you only have one bike and don't need a pair?!

;) :D

sad when you can say the most expensive part on your bike are the bars!!
:D

[surfinguru]

Yeah, but will they be available in 31.8?

[Echo]

Will they make one for freeriding?

edit: damn, surfinguru beat me to it :D

[punkassean]

Easton tried to make it pretty clear in the article that they use real structural "nanotubes" unlike some other manufacturers claiming nano technology. I think they are structural but the question is do what degree, are they single or double wall etc?

[zedro]

does it really matter? all i care is if its strong, and can i afford it....

[thaflyinfatman]

ahhh okaaaay then.... I really need to buy a space shuttle to make handlebars out of.

Bugger this, ima make me some solid stainless bars on the lathe at uni. cheap, strong, light, and easy. Also 0* sweep and 0" rise = fun.

[CreeP]

sure, but five pouds doesn't qualify a bar to be light weight. not in my book anyway.

[ALEXIS_DH]

So I was reading about how Easton new carbon fiber technology involving infusing resin and fiber with evenly distributed carbon nanotubes. They claim it's incredibly tough and stronger than steel.

Carbon experts? Thoughts on this?
http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4578
http://alwaysmad.com/gallery/data/529/4DSC01021.JPG


i worked on nano carbon fiber last year in school.

dude, its gonna be veeeeeeeeeeery expensive. plus, the entire handlebar probably got sprinkled with a couple grams of nanofiber anyway.

stil, i see a great future on the material whenever it can get produced in industrial ammounts.

[ALEXIS_DH]

i used to make test bars out of carbon nanotubes, not 100%, but composites, like fiberglass with 1% nanotubes and the like. which is probably whay this bar is.

anyway at 1% in nanofibers there is a significant increase in strengh.

the problem is that this is more of a marketing ploy to screw the uninformed. they will market you the bar like if it was made 100% of nanotubes, and rip you off in the price for a basically resin bar sprinkled with a couple grams of nanofibers.

[Transcend]

exactly what i was pointing out. Glad a few agreed with me. A 100% nanotube bar would be crazy light, and crazy strong. It woudl also cost you as much as a new car probably!

More lame hype.

[punkassean]

As Alexis said, even 1% nanofibers amounts to substantial strength increases. WHy would they even think of using 100%?

Look at this situation as somewhere between black and white.

It's more than hype but is less than 100% nano. If it's better than their non nano carbon bars (lighter/stronger) and cost somewhat more then hooray for Easton. Why classify this as "lame hype" when there are facts to back it up? Easton is a fairly legit company, they produce some of the nicest materials available.

[Transcend]

Why classify this as "lame hype" when there are facts to back it up? Easton is a fairly legit company, they produce some of the nicest materials available.

Because it is hype. You dont need bars that are really any stronger then we have now. If you want carbon great, but if you overclamp them they will still break. If you gouge them, they will still break etc. They will be structurally stronger, but most people do not SNAP carbon bars, they fail from some inherent carbon property. Nanotubes will not help fix this, and now your failure prone carbon bars will cost a few hundred bucks most likely. LAME

I sincerly doubt the average user will see any major difference. Hell all the nanotubes will effectively do is maker the bars stiffer...a major reason people go to carbon bars is to have the vibration damping inherent in the slightly less then aluminum stiff carbon they already use.

[punkassean]

If nanotubes just make the bars stiffer than wouldn't they be more prone to snapping under shock-loads?

I would imagine they would add strength but retain the flexible properties of carbon.

Anyway, I am not disagreeing for the sake of an argument, I just think that there is more to this story than just writing it off as "lame hype". It seems as though a few people on here know a bit about this and maybe we can come to a more thought out conclusion.

I am just a curious fan of technology, I don't have a vested interest in Easton in any way...

[Acadian]

whatever it does lets just hope it makes Easton's carbon bars stronger - cause they need it! Over the past 2 years I've seen a too many stories about Easton Carbon bars either breaking or cracking. :(

[bcd]

sound like a great material.
can't wait to get some army surplus
like the rest of my carbon.

[MikeD]

sound like a great material.
can't wait to get some army surplus
like the rest of my carbon.

Did you mean for that to sound like a haiku, or do you just have subconscious Zen?

MD

[ALEXIS_DH]

actually, imho, this is no differente from like 99% of the stuff in the bike industry.
yeah, with nanotubes is stronger. no deny on that.

but the cost-effectiveness of nanotubes at the present time and costs, is no-sense.
nowadays light bars weight 150grams. a monstruos decrease of 33% in weight (only 50 grams!!!!!) would cost a crapload of money. imo, stupid waste of money.

some guys will buy it, definately, but not because of an engineering - performance reason, they will just because the reason people buy XOs, or 900 bucks cranks, or titanium rotors.

just like anything else in the industry, which will be bought because of hype.

[ALEXIS_DH]

oh, and for those who want to play with nanofibers.

it took us 3 months in a recently equipped lab just to develop a predictable process to build homogeneous test plates of nanofiber reinforced fiberglass.

including a guy with 2 Ph.D. one of them related to nanofibers manufacturing process.

good luck trying that in your garage. with army surpluses.

[syadasti]

just like anything else in the industry, which will be bought because of hype.

It also notes its more impact resistance compared to normal CF, is that true - it wouldn't just be hype if you could buy something that is not only lighter but more durable or stronger.

[buildyourown]

oh, and for those who want to play with nanofibers.

it took us 3 months in a recently equipped lab just to develop a predictable process to build homogeneous test plates of nanofiber reinforced fiberglass.

including a guy with 2 Ph.D. one of them related to nanofibers manufacturing process.

good luck trying that in your garage. with army surpluses.

I think bcd was talking about buying the carbon surplus and making his own stuff. Not growing his own fibers or whatever you do. I also think his operation is slightly above the average garage.

bcd, How long have you been doing carbon? 10-15 yrs?

[S.G.D]

there is a pretty long article about this exact subject in the most recent B.R.A.I.N

interesting stuff.

~SGD

[ALEXIS_DH]

I think bcd was talking about buying the carbon surplus and making his own stuff. Not growing his own fibers or whatever you do. I also think his operation is slightly above the average garage.

bcd, How long have you been doing carbon? 10-15 yrs?


dude, get this (the worst part), we were just doing composites reinforced with nanotubes!!!!!!!!!!
the nanotubes were already made!!.

for the composite to be good, the nanotubes have to be evenly distributed (5 grams of solid in 1lb in resin, and fiberglass), and that is tricky as hell.

we got problems with the vacuum, with the pressure, with the temperature. every little variable caused shifts in nanotubes density. and those were flat squares, and rods for testing.

took a whole summer term just to find out a process in which we could make evenly distributed composites predicatably.

think about MAKING multiwalled the nanotubes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[buildyourown]

dude, get this (the worst part), we were just doing composites reinforced with nanotubes!!!!!!!!!!
the nanotubes were already made!!.

for the composite to be good, the nanotubes have to be evenly distributed (5 grams of solid in 1lb in resin, and fiberglass), and that is tricky as hell.

we got problems with the vacuum, with the pressure, with the temperature. every little variable caused shifts in nanotubes density. and those were flat squares, and rods for testing.

took a whole summer term just to find out a process in which we could make evenly distributed composites predicatably.

think about MAKING multiwalled the nanotubes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well then, that sounds like PITA. Makes you wonder how much of this technology is really in the Easton bar.

[thaflyinfatman]

Well then, that sounds like PITA. Makes you wonder how much of this technology is really in the Easton bar.

Keep in mind that Easton is one of the top companies in the world when it comes to material engineering - look how much Easton stuff you see on bikes all over the place. Every (high-end) RS fork has Easton stanchions, then there's Easton RAD/scandium/whatever frames all over the place, as well as Easton's self-labeled products (stems, bars, seatposts etc) that are all phenomenally light and strong (relatively speaking). If anyone was going to bring it to bikes, it'd be them.

[punkassean]

Easton is a big company, I don't know how involved they are getting with this but I'm sure they could it to virtually whatever extent they wanted to...

Let's stop speculating and just wait and see what these bars are all about at interbike.

[thaflyinfatman]

I heard they were flexy.

[punkassean]

http://alwaysmad.com/gallery/data/529/4DSC01021.JPG

nuh uh,

that's why they painted the center section rootbeer, cause that's the strongest and least flexiest color for bike parts! STFU stoopid newb!

[thaflyinfatman]

You misspelt n00b, n00b.

[bcd]

dude, get this (the worst part), we were just doing composites reinforced with nanotubes!!!!!!!!!!
the nanotubes were already made!!.

for the composite to be good, the nanotubes have to be evenly distributed (5 grams of solid in 1lb in resin, and fiberglass), and that is tricky as hell.

we got problems with the vacuum, with the pressure, with the temperature. every little variable caused shifts in nanotubes density. and those were flat squares, and rods for testing.

took a whole summer term just to find out a process in which we could make evenly distributed composites predicatably.

think about MAKING multiwalled the nanotubes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i have been working in composites for 15 years. i hade my hand layinf up complex parts in a 3.t
ex mold. when i was 15. now i own autoclave, vacum, alum molds for tubes for pre preg and blatters. yes i use a house hold oven, and work in a garge but i make parts that work perfect. i am sur i could make a nanotube for a bike.

i have no interest in expensive carbon. i want to make carbon the next alum. it already is strong enough for a bicycle aplication.

Nanaotubes are for making jetstream wind genterators guidwires and elavators to space.

[bcd]

Did you mean for that to sound like a haiku, or do you just have subconscious Zen?

MD


http://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/dot.gifhttp://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/dot.gif yes, i was.

[Acadian]

so anyone talked to them about it at Interbike? Fraser?
http://www.hcor.net/gallery/album100/DSC_3369.jpg

[Rik]

I can see people inserting an extra letter in to that acronym if/when their bar breaks on them.

[grimm]

I wonder why more and more carbon fiber components have all their pretty fibers covered with graphics... too bad schmolke are so expensive.. :( they know how to keep it nice and clean

[Sir_Crackien]

yeah grimm you are right! carbon gives one of the coolest looks to a product with the way it sheans! any way i don't mind graphics if they are keep to a minimum but the definitally are too many on thoses bars!

[Sideways]

Nano tubes are total BS until they can be made to filiment length.
Doesnt matter how strong something is if it's not useable.

[Sideways]

PS: Using fillers (nanotube or other) only increases stiffness and strength at the cost of toughness.

So what the heck are they selling?

[wirly]

PS: Using fillers (nanotube or other) only increases stiffness and strength at the cost of toughness.

So what the heck are they selling?

What are the units of toughness, and is it measured per unit weight or length? :rolleyes:

[ohio]

What are the units of toughness, and is it measured per unit weight or length? :rolleyes:

Actually, toughness IS a defined engineering term and easily measureable... but good effort at sarcasm!

edit: to expand on that, it's a measurement of energy absorbtion per unit area duing a fracture event. In general brittle materials absorb almost no energy before they break even if the breaking force is very high, while ductile materials absorb a lot (so much in fact that when we did tests on copper samples they'd be too hot to hold at first) even if the force required is low.

[jace]

Actually, toughness IS a defined engineering term and easily measureable... but good effort at sarcasm!

that's one of the funnier lines i've read on a message board in a while.

[bizutch]

Come on Marshall...bite. You said this is your background a few months back didn't you? Throw in some bigger comments...

[Sideways]

B,
I was manager of the composites lab at 3TEX (www.3tex.com) for several years. I worked on stuff like Carbon-Carbon Valves, 3D braiding machines that could braid one piece carbon control arms, I designed large VARTM mold systems and even orchestrated the fabrication of the largest 3D woven composite in history. But that doesn't mean I know what Easton is claiming to sell.

Last I heard, Nano-Tubes weren't available in lengths greater than whisker-shavings. Their high theoretical strength was due to the fact that shorter fibers look better in strength tests (long fibers have more potential "bad-links" in their molecular chain). However, a composite material requires the longest fiber length possible in order to acheive any real strength, otherwise the product you end up with is more stiff low strength glue and less stiff high strength fiber. So, when I see "Nano-Tube" I'm just thinking marketing hype of the same form composites were sold on in before they were well enough understood to be used to their best advantage.

I haven't kept my Composites Technology subscription current...so I also don't know what the state of the art is these days. Maybe Nano-Tubes are available in filiment length......but I seriously doubt it.

[wirly]

Actually, toughness IS a defined engineering term and easily measureable... but good effort at sarcasm!

edit: to expand on that, it's a measurement of energy absorbtion per unit area duing a fracture event. In general brittle materials absorb almost no energy before they break even if the breaking force is very high, while ductile materials absorb a lot (so much in fact that when we did tests on copper samples they'd be too hot to hold at first) even if the force required is low.

Doh! It must have been a poor effort if an engineer turned business adviser took it seriously. ;)

Sorry, I just think it's a funny term because it *sounds* so darn UN-scientific, yet has a very precise meaning for engineers (much like stress, strain, strength, and stiffness which all are used in very pedestrian contexts by the rest of us)

Off to be unfunny elsewhere!

[Acadian]

well those of you who said these new bars would be expensive - dead on!!

Looking at the new issue of Decline and they list these new EC70 Monkeylite DH bars as $150.

[dw]

Talked a good bit with my friends at Easton about this at Interbike. This is a pretty huge deal for Easton. Apparently its the real deal, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Im excited to see what comes of this.

Dave

[neversummersnow]

Bicycle Retailer had something about it...and it IS Carbon Nanontubes, not some marketing ploy

[Acadian]

Bicycle Retailer had something about it...and it IS Carbon Nanontubes, not some marketing ploy

:rolleyes: read the first post of this thread ;)

[punkassean]

To be honest, a price range of $125-$150 is not at all bad for what you get. According to the hype people were prophecizing earlier in this thread you would have expected to see a pricetag of $1000 or more.

I think this technology is legit and the price is reasonable, if you don't think it is just buy alloy or "regular" carbon bars...

[Acadian]

I think this technology is legit and the price is reasonable, if you don't think it is just buy alloy or "regular" carbon bars...

I'll let other people be the guinea pigs - Carbon bars on a DH bike scare me for some reason? I know they are strong and everything, but at the rate I crash, which most of the time is in rocks, I would have to replace them every month! ;)

Not saying I won't even try some tho! :sneaky: Might push myself to do it one of these days..

[punkassean]

I totally agree that a new set of Protapers or EA70's every season is a cheap and safe solution (that's what I do for my DH bike) but for those looking for Nico style Bling and ultra-super-feather-light race parts...

I have zero qualms running carbon bars for "Nar*Kal X-Stuntry" riding.

[EastcoastKid]

Well i figure if any company in the bike industry can do it Easton is a safe bet. They don’t just make bike parts things like there composite hockey sticks are the best around by far