View Full Version : New Santa Cruz V10 or Turner DHR
Orfen
08-19-2004, 10:20 AM
I've worked very hard this summer, reason why I didn't visit RM much, and was able to save up for a new bike. My two choices are the new Mono V10 or a 04 (maybe 05) Turner DHR.
Any one here has saddle time on both?
quadricolour
08-19-2004, 10:22 AM
Get the V10. It looks cooler, and we all know that's what's truly important.
Orfen
08-19-2004, 10:25 AM
I also read that the V10 will make you faster? 30 sec faster to be exact!
Both bikes are nice..reason why I'm asking for some feedback.
I have to say in all honesty to go with the Turner. The V10 has become way too mainstream.
profro
08-19-2004, 10:32 AM
Either one as long as you get the Fox DH fork to go with it.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 10:34 AM
Get the V10 and tell us how it rides ;)
Orfen
08-19-2004, 11:02 AM
From reading on other forums about both companies, it sounds like Turner has a great reputation for having great customer service?
To be honestly, I would sacrifice some level of CS for better perfomance..if the V10 is a better bike, but SC lacks CS, so be it!
If the DHR is a better bike, well then it is best of both world :thumb:
profro: Is the Fox DH fork specially designed for the V10 and DHR?
Threepointtwo
08-19-2004, 11:17 AM
The new Fox DH is actually designed for the new Yeti, which is not mainstream and is an additional 10 seconds faster than the V10. And cool? - oh yeah, it's the coolest.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 11:19 AM
When are we gonna frekkin' see pics of that new Yeti anyway?
profro
08-19-2004, 11:23 AM
When are we gonna frekkin' see pics of that new Yeti anyway?
Never.
Our Yeti team bikes next year will have a cloaking device that engages in the sunlight. So you won't even see us riding or racing them, but we'll be riding them alright. :nuts:
Acadian
08-19-2004, 11:26 AM
Never.
Our Yeti team bikes next year will have a cloaking device that engages in the sunlight. So you won't even see us riding or racing them, but we'll be riding them alright. :nuts:
does is accelerate when you stop pedaling? ;)
no seriously tho...is there such a thing as a "new Yeti DH bike" for next year?
sorry to derail this thead...just curious.
profro
08-19-2004, 11:35 AM
Pedaling.....pffffttt. You don't even have to pedal. You just have to think about pedaling.
Yes, there is a new DH bike. The DH9 has been out of prduction since early summer. Yeti has not made a new DH9 since. From what I know, the new bike has been riden by Milan in secrecy and maybe will debut around Interbike time. Other than it using two wheels I really don't know anything. I am worried though, I can't imagine anything being better than the current DH9. I hope it is.
Never.
Our Yeti team bikes next year will have a cloaking device that engages in the sunlight. So you won't even see us riding or racing them, but we'll be riding them alright. :nuts:
Was that what Zartan did?
The GI Joe guy i saved up all those proof of purchase thingy's for.
profro
08-19-2004, 12:21 PM
Oh my goodness, you can remember that? I was thinking more along the lines of Romulan (sp?) from Star Trek.
Orfen
08-19-2004, 12:30 PM
pleze, can you guys stick with the original subject? :(
Was that what Zartan did?
The GI Joe guy i saved up all those proof of purchase thingy's for.
dood! I totally remeber Zartan!....he was a bad ass! :thumb: My faviorite was Beach-head though!
pleze, can you guys stick with the original subject? :(
A while back there was a post by go-ride (i think) comparing dhr to v10 to el cuervo. Search it out. I know you say 05, but reading about 04 bikes may help you in your decision.
I have a DHR and love it, but cant speak for the V10, especially the 05 version since ive yet to see one in the real world.....
Follow your heart dude...
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 01:11 PM
The new V10 has a great in the pocket kind of cockpit feel. It handles great, pedals great, and is lightweight.
The DHR has a great in the pocket kind of cockpit feel. It handles great, pedals great, and is lightweight.
The biggest difference beyond aesthetics (SC wins hands down) is the feel of the suspension. The DHR feels very lively and responsive where the V10 has a "dead" feel to it. I like the feeling of my back tire glued to the ground and really feeling nothing on the nasty stuff, but some people like the suspension feedback offered in the DHR. The rear wheel still sticks like glue, but you can kind of map better what is underneath you. Personal preference thing here. I say ride both and then decide.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 01:45 PM
The new V10 has a great in the pocket kind of cockpit feel. It handles great, pedals great, and is lightweight.
The DHR has a great in the pocket kind of cockpit feel. It handles great, pedals great, and is lightweight.
The biggest difference beyond aesthetics (SC wins hands down) is the feel of the suspension. The DHR feels very lively and responsive where the V10 has a "dead" feel to it. I like the feeling of my back tire glued to the ground and really feeling nothing on the nasty stuff, but some people like the suspension feedback offered in the DHR. The rear wheel still sticks like glue, but you can kind of map better what is underneath you. Personal preference thing here. I say ride both and then decide.
Is it a love and hate relationship with the way the rear suspension works on the V10!! From what I’ve read and heard, most - if not all - the little nit picky (call them nit picky since overall my V10 was awesome) beefs I had with mine has been addressed. Lower CG, Shorter Wheel base, steeper head angle and lighter.
There are some situations where I definitely prefer the lively feel of the DHR – like rockgardens where you have jump lines – you know, you can just float from one rock to another? Well that is a tad bit harder to do on the V10 since the rear wheel just doesn’t want to leave the ground – you end up loosing some momentum since the rear wheel will pretty much hit/absorb anything on it’s path. On the other hand, the V10 shines in rock gardens since you can just straight line and pin it!!
The new V10 (with new aggressive angles) probably corners as good as the DHR. Where my V10 lacked (or lack of skills) is keeping momentum and exist speed. This seems to be way easier with the DHR. But again, if it’s a rock infested corner…the V10 shines!!
Since switching over to the DHR, I also noticed that when I accidentally hit a sharp rock with my rear wheel, it hits HARD – where as with the v10 you simply wouldn’t fee it at all.
With that said…I would love to try the new V10 to compare it to the old one.
Follow your heart dude...
hahahaha, actually I ride a DHR also, I would like to check out a new V10, I was looking at some in Whistler ...they look UBER cool....wo know...SC products rock!...As do Turners...so MANY DECISSIONS!!
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 02:00 PM
With that said…I would love to try the new V10 to compare it to the old one.
Are you going to Durango? Tahoe? I'll for sure be at one, maybe both. If you're there when I'm there, feel free to jump on mine.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 02:13 PM
Are you going to Durango? Tahoe? I'll for sure be at one, maybe both. If you're there when I'm there, feel free to jump on mine.
Lately I barely have the luxury to leave work at a respectable time to go home :( so considering my work schedule for the next few weeks – Durango is out of the question. When will you be in Tahoe?
Bacardi
08-19-2004, 02:42 PM
Here is the -2004- review of V10 / El curevo / DHR :Bike Review Here (http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=20081)
Edit: still a good read. And as el jefe says below, the 05 v10 feels different.
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 02:57 PM
Here is the review of V10 / El curevo / DHR :Bike Review Here (http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=20081)
That's last year's V10. The new model is nothing like it. I had last year's V10 and I now have the new V10. Night and day difference.
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 02:58 PM
Lately I barely have the luxury to leave work at a respectable time to go home :( so considering my work schedule for the next few weeks – Durango is out of the question. When will you be in Tahoe?
Sept 10-12. Maybe....still not sure.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 03:01 PM
Sept 10-12. Maybe....still not sure.
keep me posted!
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 03:07 PM
keep me posted!
Will do.
Wallstreetbiker
08-19-2004, 03:07 PM
The new V10 has a great in the pocket kind of cockpit feel. It handles great, pedals great, and is lightweight.
The DHR has a great in the pocket kind of cockpit feel. It handles great, pedals great, and is lightweight.
The biggest difference beyond aesthetics (SC wins hands down) is the feel of the suspension. The DHR feels very lively and responsive where the V10 has a "dead" feel to it. I like the feeling of my back tire glued to the ground and really feeling nothing on the nasty stuff, but some people like the suspension feedback offered in the DHR. The rear wheel still sticks like glue, but you can kind of map better what is underneath you. Personal preference thing here. I say ride both and then decide.
Agreed. On a side note - Progressive changed the tuning for the 5th Element for the '05 V10's to allow the rider to set-up that more "lively" feel. I've been on the '05 shock for about 2 months and can really tell a difference between it and the '04 Progressive (I'm on a late model '04). The V10 still stays glued to the ground, but I'm able boost a little easier and pump a bit in the corners. If I had to give you a better sense on how "lively" the rear of the bike is, I would say my '04 with the '05 shock lies somewhere in between the bike with the '04 shock and a Turner.
As Acadian said above, the '05 really corrects the things that the '04 could be critized for (little heavy, long/slack and high bottom bracket). Still by far the best bike I've ever owned, but can't wait for my '05 :drool: :drool:
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 03:13 PM
Agreed. On a side note - Progressive changed the tuning for the 5th Element for the '05 V10's to allow the rider to set-up that more "lively" feel. I've been on the '05 shock for about 2 months and can really tell a difference between it and the '04 Progressive (I'm on a late model '04). The V10 still stays glued to the ground, but I'm able boost a little easier and pump a bit in the corners. If I had to give you a better sense on how "lively" the rear of the bike is, I would say my '04 with the '05 shock lies somewhere in between the bike with the '04 shock and a Turner.
As Acadian said above, the '05 really corrects the things that the '04 could be critized for (little heavy, long/slack and high bottom bracket). Still by far the best bike I've ever owned, but can't wait for my '05 :drool: :drool:
I never went by the book on tuning anyway. If you liked the old style, you'll love your new one.
Lumpy_Gravy
08-19-2004, 04:15 PM
Remember that Intense scrapped the M1 for the M3, which from my naive eye looks pretty identical to the mono-v10. (I cant wait for M3 owners to start saying that the M3 is noticeably better than the V10 and worth the extra £400.)
The fact 2 of the biggest (if not the biggest) frame manufacturers have decided on an almost identical design is enough for me. Even if it is marketing, its damn fine marketing, and it works. Also the Mono V10 is designed to have very few flat surfaces, which significantly reduces sound from the monocoque... hence its odd shape.
Respect to SC for listening and making the necessary changes to the V10
kidwoo
08-19-2004, 04:31 PM
Are you going to Durango? Tahoe? I'll for sure be at one, maybe both. If you're there when I'm there, feel free to jump on mine.
Can I take you up on that? I don't break wheels like Acadian does.
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 04:34 PM
Can I take you up on that? I don't break wheels like Acadian does.
Sure.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 04:38 PM
Can I take you up on that? I don't break wheels like Acadian does.
but you break foot like me... ;)
kidwoo
08-19-2004, 04:42 PM
Sure.
Thanks man. But you can't keep my turner after you get a run or two on it......I'm just warning you. :cool:
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 04:52 PM
Thanks man. But you can't keep my turner after you get a run or two on it......I'm just warning you. :cool:
I've ridden Sgt Brown's Turner with the PUSH resorvoir shock and full team build. If that didn't sway me, I doubt yours will. :p
Acadian
08-19-2004, 04:54 PM
I've ridden Sgt Brown's Turner with the PUSH resorvoir shock and full team build. If that didn't sway me, I doubt yours will. :p
touche!
kidwoo...put that in your pipe and smoke it! ;)
kidwoo
08-19-2004, 04:57 PM
I've ridden Sgt Brown's Turner with the PUSH resorvoir shock and full team build. If that didn't sway me, I doubt yours will. :p
Says you. :sneaky: My fork doesn't let the wheel go underneath the downtube on straight hits. Nah seriously, I'll be looking foreward to meeting you that weekend. I'll be slow and cautious until I'm sure my foot doesn't fall off.
Yeah you're right luc. Unfortunately bike shops carry rims only, no foot bones. :(
syadasti
08-19-2004, 05:16 PM
How about Chris Canfield's new custom painted F1 - he's selling it cause he's injured and has no medical insurance.
I just got this F1 and it feels awesome. The difference is huge compared to other DH bikes I've ridden. The bike is light with the build spec (43 lbs), superplush, stiff, carries speed great, and I feel less tired at the end of the day. I haven't ridden a bike yet that feels so plush and pedals so well at the same time. After riding the DHX on the Moment and hearing things from friends and others, I might consider the DHX as my main shock and use the Romic as a backup since the reliablity can be spotty (no reported issues yet though with the romics on F1 - both the Canfield Brothers switched from Manitou to Romic on their personal bikes).
Chris Canfield just broke his wrist riding his brand new custom painted racing setup (pimp components, new slider+, smaller tires etc...) and his selling his. I would guess his is around 40-41 lbs. or so? PM me or give Canfield Brothers a call. Also - watch for their booth at Interbike - they are going to have a pretty sweet lineup for 05 ;)
Luc - did your friends at Pinkbike all really dig the F1 also?
Orfen
08-19-2004, 05:17 PM
wow...I leave for a few hours and come back to all these posts!!
El, Acadian, Wallstreetbiker, etc.. thanks for all the great feedback! :thumb:
no...not really interested in the F1 – might work well, but personally I just don’t like the looks of it.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 05:21 PM
Luc - did your friends at Pinkbike all really dig the F1 also?
you would have to ask him (Mental).
but I guess it really doesn't matter since Orfen isn't interested in the Canfield.
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 05:32 PM
Says you. :sneaky: My fork doesn't let the wheel go underneath the downtube on straight hits. Nah seriously, I'll be looking foreward to meeting you that weekend. I'll be slow and cautious until I'm sure my foot doesn't fall off.
Yeah you're right luc. Unfortunately bike shops carry rims only, no foot bones. :(
come on now, Sgt Brown has a Boxxer, not a Durnoodle...I mean Durado. :D
Still not sure if I'm going, and logistics of the trip, (whether I'd drive alone, with someone, when I'd come back, where I'll stay, etc...) but I have money, time and a truck, so I'm not worried.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 05:36 PM
come on now, Sgt Brown has a Boxxer, not a Durnoodle...I mean Durado. :D
Still not sure if I'm going, and logistics of the trip, (whether I'd drive alone, with someone, when I'd come back, where I'll stay, etc...) but I have money, time and a truck, so I'm not worried.
well if you don't come I might just have to buy one and virtually test it! :evil:
kidwoo
08-19-2004, 05:41 PM
come on now, Sgt Brown has a Boxxer, .
Exactly.:devil: Still, I have to admit, If I could ride a bike as light as Wentz's was last year, I'd be tempted to do the boxxer thing as well. That freak had drilled out his axles though..............
ANYWAY
Let me know if you're up for camping, I can give you a few places that are close to northstar. Luc and Joe Pozer both stay at the Boreal Logde up donner pass from Truckee. It's a ski area that leaves its hotel open during the winter. From what they told me, it sounds like the cheapest deal around. Prices do drop after labor day when all the families make their exodus from Tahoe. So everywhere will be cheaper than what's being charged right now.
Hope you can make it.
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 05:41 PM
well if you don't come I might just have to buy one and virtually test it! :evil:
Now you're talking. :thumb:
El Jefe
08-19-2004, 05:44 PM
Exactly.:devil: Still, I have to admit, If I could ride a bike as light as Wentz's was last year, I'd be tempted to do the boxxer thing as well. That freak had drilled out his axles though..............
ANYWAY
Let me know if you're up for camping, I can give you a few places that are close to northstar. Luc and Joe Pozer both stay at the Boreal Logde up donner pass from Truckee. It's a ski area that leaves its hotel open during the winter. From what they told me, it sounds like the cheapest deal around. Prices do drop after labor day when all the families make their exodus from Tahoe. So everywhere will be cheaper than what's being charged right now.
Hope you can make it.
I'm gonna make every effort to get up there. I've never been. If I'm racing, I'm not camping...I'd rather wake up hung-over in a bed than hung-over half inside a tent... I'm not too budget conscious when it comes to accomodations, but if there's a good deal to be had, I'm all over it.
Acadian
08-19-2004, 05:54 PM
I'm gonna make every effort to get up there. I've never been. If I'm racing, I'm not camping...I'd rather wake up hung-over in a bed than hung-over half inside a tent... I'm not too budget conscious when it comes to accomodations, but if there's a good deal to be had, I'm all over it.
is there a race that weekend?
Someone in here got it right on: V10 feels dead, DHR feels lively. Personally, I like a bike that has some feedback to it (some pop) - others like the V10. Try and find people that have both bikes and give them a try. I'm sure you'll make the right Turner.. I mean decision. :D
T-Pirate
08-19-2004, 07:33 PM
Email chuck norris he'll know.
Someone in here got it right on: V10 feels dead, DHR feels lively. Personally, I like a bike that has some feedback to it (some pop) - others like the V10. Try and find people that have both bikes and give them a try. I'm sure you'll make the right Turner.. I mean decision. :D
ok, I come from riding a Super 8 with an AVY and a floating brake...it would roll over anything.I imagine like a V!) but the V10 pedals better( i have no idea but am guessing what a V10 feels like) I liked that feelling, I really like Santa Cruz products they are good and great customer service to me(super 8 swing arms:)) the Turner is a whole different world, its fast quick and you feel alot of stuff, but it pedals well is way light and alot easier to jump than a VP bike is....there are some cons though.....low bottom...but try both ....its all personal prefance.
Jeremy R
08-19-2004, 08:34 PM
Wow, 4 pages of this stuff and most of the comments seem straight-up.
I think that is a record on here.
Well, I need not wax on about how much I love the DHR.
I did ride an older V10, and I remember thinking that it was not as different as everybody makes it out to be. It just felt like another really good DH bike to me. And now it sounds like they have improved them further. Sweet.
One thing is for sure, they are both gonna sell a ton of these next year,
along with that sweet azz new DW Link DH bike.
Obviously, they are both super sweet bikes, so just go on looks. Or look at it this way. If you want a bike asap, buy the turner, I’m pretty sure they are easier to come by than V-10’s. If you do decide to go for the new V-10, wait awhile and test out the Fox DH fork for us ;)
Acadian
08-19-2004, 09:25 PM
Both bikes are definitely up there as far as top performers. I'm kindda glad that that I got to ride a V10 all last year. That bike was solid - I never had any problems with it. After taking all the links apart, cleaning them, then using a little wee bit of loctite - those bolts never came loose. I also like the fact that the new V10 has pinch bolts at the pivots...mine didn't
El Jefe - can you comments on the new links? are they using a different approach for the mounting hardware? That top out bumper is no longer required right?
:think: Can't wait to give one a try..
Orfen
08-23-2004, 05:49 PM
Well I finally got to see one of those new V10's in person this past weekend. It is definitely a nice bike but I did notice a few things.
1) That TT appears to be mighty thin? My bet it, one drop in rocks and you got dents in your TT.
2) Almost no rotor clearance on the back. An 8" Hayes rotor barely clears the swingarm.
3) That bike has more bolts than my car!
Morgan
08-23-2004, 06:03 PM
i have no idea about the dhrs but i have logged quite a few hours on an 05 v10 and LOVE IT. it feels a little quicker then past models and its lightened up a bit too, i have a 8" fork on front and that sets the HA perfectly, the rear feels like its more playful and awake, and it still sticks to the ground and corners really well, the bb feels low as well, great frame, i am really stoaked on it, the only other thing i might add is the as the front end is mono i think it dents easier, i have slapped 2 into the down tube and on my other one i have hit tons of things with no dents, good luck!
Morgan
08-23-2004, 06:08 PM
oh yea, about those links, they have removed that top out bumper thing which is nice, all bolts are pinched and they have added a nice supporting piece that connects them, the rear is so damn stiff
Threepointtwo
10-04-2004, 08:22 AM
This has been an excellent thread on two bikes I am very curious about, thanks for the input. For those in the know, how do the two compare when it comes to manualing? Not so much on the coaster wheelie down the block but being able to boost the front end up and over an unexpected rock. Any issues show up over time on either? Also, is the limited shock choice for the DHR an issue?
Acadian
10-04-2004, 08:31 AM
is the limited shock choice for the DHR an issue?
Ask Kidwoo about that one ;)
But if you look at this thread HERE (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95745&page=5&highlight=DHR) you will see that more and more shocks are being made to accomodate the DHR.
Acadian
10-04-2004, 08:37 AM
Any issues show up over time on either?
on the DHR the DU shock bushings wear out super fast, even too fast in some cases.
on the DHR the DU shock bushings wear out super fast, even too fast in some cases.
I had the same issues, but replaced the 2 piece spacers with a solid pin with a couple 5mm thick rubber gromets to center the shock. Before this i had one day where the bushing had worn in 3.5 runs at a race. it wore enough to feel a small clunking (im real picky on clunks and noises). My new pin has lasted 2 full days at whistler with no noticable clunking. I had talked to Casey at Turner about this, and he said that Romic was working on a new pin/spacer setup (the same as what i did). So if anyone is really having a hard time with this call Romic after IB and see if they have their new pins ready.
I also read that the V10 will make you faster? 30 sec faster to be exact!
Both bikes are nice..reason why I'm asking for some feedback.
Yeah... My v-10 took 30 seconds off of a 36 second short DH run near my house.
Now it only takes 6 seconds!!
Acadian
10-04-2004, 10:09 AM
Yeah... My v-10 took 30 seconds off of a 36 second short DH run near my house.
Now it only takes 6 seconds!!
I think you are missing the punch line.
READ HERE (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94533&highlight=sec)
dhtahoe
10-04-2004, 10:25 AM
The New V-10 is a great bike. As far as their customer service goes the only people I see having a CS issue is the folks that don't get that cracked frame replaced that they bought off of a friend that bought it off of a friend. People NEED to get a clue... the warranty is for the original owner ONLY. The Turner is also a great bike, but I don't own one I have a V-10 Mono. And as far as how much faster it will make you the 20-27 secs that I hve gained is in corner speed. ALOT of people can talk sh!t if they want but when you gain just one second per turn on a course that has 20-30 turns it DOES add up. Anyone in Tahoe can tell you that it has improved my riding greatly. Not just because it's a good bike, but it's like the feather they gave Dumbo it makes you believe you can fly. Hey Luc you can ride it when ever... just leave the Sram X-O attached unlike kidwoo did on his first and only run on it. It's cool he gave me his... and it was newer. :eviltongu Lets face it too Luc some people can't get any faster no matter what bike they get. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, ya know what I mean. :sneaky: Oh sorry did I just say that :eek:
Guess?Who
10-04-2004, 11:01 AM
Flip a coin. Both look good.
Threepointtwo
10-04-2004, 11:24 AM
The New V-10 is a great bike. As far as their customer service goes the only people I see having a CS issue is the folks that don't get that cracked frame replaced that they bought off of a friend that bought it off of a friend. People NEED to get a clue... the warranty is for the original owner ONLY. The Turner is also a great bike, but I don't own one I have a V-10 Mono. And as far as how much faster it will make you the 20-27 secs that I hve gained is in corner speed
How about your ability to lift the front end quickly? I have ridden the DHR and nearly flipped over backward just pulling up on the bar but on my current ride, I am lucky to get the front tire off the ground at all.
Jeremy R
10-04-2004, 11:36 AM
How about your ability to lift the front end quickly? I have ridden the DHR and nearly flipped over backward just pulling up on the bar but on my current ride, I am lucky to get the front tire off the ground at all.
I am not sure about the V10, but on the DHR, it has a real "ride off the back" style to it. The front wheel is so easy to lift, it just floats over stuff.
Almost every pic of me I have seen on my DHR, I am hanging way off the bike.
When I test rode an old V-10 it had more of a centered feel to it, but I did not get enough time on it to appreciate it or even form an opinion on it.
OGRipper
10-04-2004, 01:06 PM
Wow, pretty cool, not sure I've ever seen a poll go this close to 50/50.
This is a classic case of how nothing can substitute for riding the bikes and making the call based on which one feels better and is better suited to the rider's style. Both are super high quality and come from reputable companies with a long history of making good stuff and backing it up with CS. To me there is no objective reason to get one vs. the other.
Personally I like the v10 as a point-and-shoot, stick-to-the-ground race bike, and with changes for '05 it's more fun as a play bike than before, so that would be my call. But it's a close call, and either way you'll end up with a sweet ride, so I say go ride some, then make your decision on your subjective preference. Could be the way one feels, looks, even sounds, or it might be a reason you can't even articulate, but chances are pretty good you'll know.
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