Project: WIM Update

[NateH]

Myself, Nathan Hoch and my friend Tad Evans are starting a petition to update and improve the WIM series downhill courses to 2004 standards. We intend to volunteer to help with course design, building and venue. We would like to see elmination of some courses (Wenatchee), improvment to others( chelan and winthrope), and the additions of some NW downhill favorites (P.A. , Shelton, Monesano, 38, etc...) We feel that as paying customers we have a right to expect up to date courses that will challenge and prepare local racers for real competition (Schwietzer). We are not unwilling to participate in the changes but we feel that to have racers come back next year WIM must make some changes. If you would like to participate in our petition or just voice your opinions feel free to email me with your name, racing catagory, and email address at hochn13@yahoo.com. Also if you are interested in helping with some trail work towards this goal please send me your phone number so that we can contact you about planning. We feel that many people are worried about the WIM courses but are worried about being seen as complainers or irritating the WIM organizers. We would like to provide this opporotunity to everyone to be heard. We have heard discontent about the courses from all levels of racers and feel this is a problem that needs to be addressed.

[Borregokid]

As a xc racer I couldnt agree with you more. I am sure RnR is reviewing the season. It seemed to me after looking at Schweitzer our downhill racers need some attention, even though I ride xc I think downhill needs to be the priority. One of the problems might be having DH and XC on the same site. I am sure that is something they would want to continue. I am thinking something along the line of having maybe 10 DH races and maybe six XC races. So maybe you have four races that are only DH. Also I think more of the races should be closer in to the Olympia-Everett corridor because thats where most people live. I for one am worried about the survival of the whole wims series-we could use a few more racers out there. I am sure Gino and Wendy would like some input. I think the DH racing is where the sport is heading although in the case of Washington State we are behind the curve.

[Snacks]

Myself, Nathan Hoch and my friend Tad Evans are starting a petition to update and improve the WIM series downhill courses to 2004 standards. We intend to volunteer to help with course design, building and venue. We would like to see elmination of some courses (Wenatchee), improvment to others( chelan and winthrope), and the additions of some NW downhill favorites (P.A. , Shelton, Monesano, 38, etc...) We feel that as paying customers we have a right to expect up to date courses that will challenge and prepare local racers for real competition (Schwietzer). We are not unwilling to participate in the changes but we feel that to have racers come back next year WIM must make some changes. If you would like to participate in our petition or just voice your opinions feel free to email me with your name, racing catagory, and email address at hochn13@yahoo.com. Also if you are interested in helping with some trail work towards this goal please send me your phone number so that we can contact you about planning. We feel that many people are worried about the WIM courses but are worried about being seen as complainers or irritating the WIM organizers. We would like to provide this opporotunity to everyone to be heard. We have heard discontent about the courses from all levels of racers and feel this is a problem that needs to be addressed.


Have you approched the land owners of the above locations mentioned?

[NateH]

Have you approched the land owners of the above locations mentioned?

These venues have been availible for racing in the past and at the moment we are just trying to get a feel for how the rest of the racing community feels about our WIM series. We feel as paying customers that we have a certain amount to expect from RnR and we are willing to help them towards what we want to see.

[NateH]

If you support what we are trying to do PLEASE email me so that I can save your name and address. Without enough support this will go nowhere.

[Snacks]

These venues have been availible for racing in the past and at the moment we are just trying to get a feel for how the rest of the racing community feels about our WIM series. We feel as paying customers that we have a certain amount to expect from RnR and we are willing to help them towards what we want to see.

I'm sorry to sound all negitive but no races have ever been held at 38 and unless you wanna risk getting the place shut down completely I wouldn't even ask.

Yes, races have been held at Shelton, P.A., and Monty, but how many people attended those races? The fire road to the Monty course is 5 miles long and not in the best shape. If WIM had a race at Shelton, were would everyone park, and at Monty too? We had a race at Shelton with 75 riders and parking was an issue. Plus the shuttle road crosses the course. Did you know that Simpson and Monty close the forest down for almost 3 months in the summer?

I just think you should talk to the land owners and ask how they feel about having 250+ racers, their famlies, specators, and the WIM crew before you present your ideas to RnR.

[NateH]

Yes we relize that there are challenges but half the battle is getting Rn'R to see that they have a job to do and part of that is finding places that we want to race and talking to the owners. We are willing to help make courses but we have jobs of our own so we obviously can't do everything. At 50$ a race I think WIM can afford to listen to the riders. Right now we are just getting opinions, if you think those places would be hard to go do you have any suggestions for us? Your opinions matter to us and we want to know what EVERYONE thinks. Thanks for the response would you like to be added to the email list to be kept informed?

[holliswood]

Best of luck to you guys as I said in my E- mail to you. But I have pretty much decided to blow off the WIM next year. I will do the Spokane races but that is it. For what it costs to race there series, and seeing the effort they(roundandround) put into it for downhill, I am over it! There are several races about the same distance away(Oregon,Canada) that are the same cost to race, but are actual DH courses. Courses that change every time you race them, and organizers that give a sh*t about the sport. Not how much $$$$ they will make. Kudos to you guys for trying to make a difference! :)

[bibs]

I'm sorry to sound all negitive but no races have ever been held at 38 and unless you wanna risk getting the place shut down completely I wouldn't even ask.

Yes, races have been held at Shelton, P.A., and Monty, but how many people attended those races? The fire road to the Monty course is 5 miles long and not in the best shape. If WIM had a race at Shelton, were would everyone park, and at Monty too? We had a race at Shelton with 75 riders and parking was an issue. Plus the shuttle road crosses the course. Did you know that Simpson and Monty close the forest down for almost 3 months in the summer?

I just think you should talk to the land owners and ask how they feel about having 250+ racers, their famlies, specators, and the WIM crew before you present your ideas to RnR.


werd and Monty is all shut down right now...due to fire...and as for exit 38 the Ranger yeld at me one day for riding there, so dont durn that bridge...leave it be...its on a dont ask dont tell...and who ever the moron that built the trail through the clear cut (that I hear the real builders complaining abou tis) almost got that all shut down. As for WIM, I have a good "friendship" kinda thing with Wendy....they are not and really cant build any more than has already been built, and if you go yaking at them we want this we want that...they will just stop, doing the races....So becarful before you approach anyone....to bad you made DHZ mad, they could have helped you :think: a bit

[bibs]

Best of luck to you guys as I said in my E- mail to you. But I have pretty much decided to blow off the WIM next year. I will do the Spokane races but that is it. For what it costs to race there series, and seeing the effort they(roundandround) put into it for downhill, I am over it! There are several races about the same distance away(Oregon,Canada) that are the same cost to race, but are actual DH courses. Courses that change every time you race them, and organizers that give a sh*t about the sport. Not how much $$$$ they will make. Kudos to you guys for trying to make a difference! :)

my guys have decided the same, time to race the real races made for us..Canada and Oregon. Oh and Idaho ;) ..maybe :evil: WOA!!!..K.E. you almost swore! :thumb:

[NateH]

werd and Monty is all shut down right now...due to fire...and as for exit 38 the Ranger yeld at me one day for riding there, so dont durn that bridge...leave it be...its on a dont ask dont tell...and who ever the moron that built the trail through the clear cut (that I hear the real builders complaining abou tis) almost got that all shut down. As for WIM, I have a good "friendship" kinda thing with Wendy....they are not and really cant build any more than has already been built, and if you go yaking at them we want this we want that...they will just stop, doing the races....So becarful before you approach anyone....to bad you made DHZ mad, they could have helped you :think: a bit

Kim, Cory, and Amy

We are not being specific as to which courses they should do we are simply putting ideas out. We do know about the BC cups and they are awesome races that we will be attending if WIM doesn't come around, we have raced two already and will be at the finals at MT. Washington. Without change the races will die anyway, half the racers from this year have already said that they won't be back? They're already dying we're just trying to help WIM get back in it. I sincerly hope that some of you guys who aren't planning to do the WIM next year will try a couple if we get some change, after all what this is all about is competition and making the experience better for everyone. It seems that too many of us have already concluded that there is no way to make the situation better, but as a group we have some voice in what we want to race. Think about the money we spend to go to whistler and all the other races and places, would you realy mind putting that money into races if the courses were cool? Please don't foucus on the places we mentioned for races but focus on the idea of having better races close to home. As far as things with the DHZ go things are buisness as usual. I don't think mine, tads yours or anyones team affiliation has anything to do with our love of the sport. Please email us back with any ideas and thanks for the thoughts.

Nathan and Tad

[joelsman]

I am also planning on racing the bc cup next year, real courses, yea!

SKi areas are the best places to have races, parking and getting to the top are easy.

I would pay a little more for these features.

[NateH]

What we would like to know from all of you is if you would support a change from the current WIM series courses to more up to date style courses. The symatics and particulars can be discussed when we talk with Rn'R, we want to know if our goal is on target.

[joelsman]

yes I would support those changes, the lack of technical trails for the dh runs leads me to look else where for my dh needs, that and there are no races nearby, all eastside.

[buildyourown]

The races are on the eastside because RnR is based in Spokane. They don't want to drive 10 hours any more than we do.

The logistics of the courses you mentioned have all been beat to death. You really can't have a big race at any of them.

RnR will never go back to Snoqualmie. Even if they did charge enough and have enough turn out to open the lifts. I have been told this by various people within RnR.

So, the question remains. Come up with some good alternative locations, and I'm sure RnR will look into them.

I'm pretty comfortable with boycotting the bad WIM races and doing Hood and BC cup. If nobody shows up, the situation will change or WIM will be dead. If WIM dies, another race series will pop up and fill the void.

[oly]

3 words:

Local Ski Resort

We all know the summit seems to have their foot up their A$$ when it comes to biking, and we've all spent alot of time E-arguing the points, but what about spending your time and energy to petition for a local area to open? I think you'd get more support from racers and freeriders alike if you could convince someone that there is potential. Crystal MTN ive heard is looking into it, but how much, i dont know. Maybe they need a envelope of signatures of people willing to support and grow a summer business. I think in reality thats the only thing that can breath life back into the WA DH scene.

Snacks pointed out issues with access/parking at the past west side Venues. Have you been to Monte/Shelton? Those places are pretty cool, but there is no way they could support any WIM sized event. PA was also a good place to race, but we know WIM will never go back there..... I also dont think races at some of the more "secret" places would ever be a good idea. A race at one of the exits would sure bring doom.

I think its good to get this ball rolling (improving WIM). I just think the energy could be directed towards somthing that will result in a better outcome. Bottom line is WIM makes a ton of $$ regardless. If we all boycotted them sure they will loose $$, but then they wouldnt have to shuttle out whiny a$$es up the hill from 3-6 on a XC day. Think of how much earlier they would get home.....

On another sorta similar note, I think we will have a good PNW showing at this Mt Washington race.

[NateH]

It sounds like you guys agree that you'd like to see a change and all we are asking of you is that you tell if you want to see this change as well. We want the ability to present WIM with a consice, formal list of things that downhillers as a group want to see. And we want to be able to show that this is something we all care about and not just the whinning of a few people here and there. What we are trying to do is eliminate the boycot and just attempt to improve the perdicament. About ski hills we couldn't agree more, that is where we want to be, but we aren't the ones that need to talking that is the job of people who get paid to do it (Rn'R) The only thing that we are trying to do is give RnR the reason to approach all these places (a ton of pnw dh'ers who want a change) We see downhill as being alive and well in the north west it is our races that lag behind. Reading what you guys are saying it sounds like you all agree you'd like to see a change you just don't think its going to happen. One of our reasons for doing this is to give WIM that one last chance before we pickup and leave for BC cups and oregon races permenantly. So if you would like to see a change than you are with us. If you like WIM courses and the way WIM races are run and you want them to stay just the way they are than you don't agree. We want to know how many of you want to see a change and how many of you like WIM courses just like they are now. We don't have the time or desire to argue with everyone about every little detail we just want to make the racing scene as a whole fun in the pacific northwest. Thankyou all for your time and you thoughts.

[WSUDirtrider]

Just to clarify, the montesano woods have only been closed for 3 to 4 weeks now, they remained open for the majority of the summer. The course is in remarkably good condition and if done properly with Lake Sylvia state park, an access road to the course can be opened directly from the lake making the drive to the course close to one mile. You can shuttle the course continuously now with the changes that have been made to keep the racers off of the road. Also, if Ron were to open the gates to some spur roads there is more than adequate parking for a wim race.

[oly]

Just to clarify, the montesano woods have only been closed for 3 to 4 weeks now, they remained open for the majority of the summer. The course is in remarkably good condition and if done properly with Lake Sylvia state park, an access road to the course can be opened directly from the lake making the drive to the course close to one mile. You can shuttle the course continuously now with the changes that have been made to keep the racers off of the road. Also, if Ron were to open the gates to some spur roads there is more than adequate parking for a wim race.

WSU,

Thanks for that info. A little local knowlege goes along way........

Nate,

I also appreciate the effort you and Tad are taking on. Maybe some progress could be made this time around. Usually we all just get pissed and the topic gets dropped.

Also, wasnt there previously a "freeride" club going to work on access issues? I remember the topic popping up once, but the response was "we will get back to you once theres more info"..... Well is there any? Can that group share some info? Or is it an exclusive club? Whats the reason for not sharing more info?

[holliswood]

my guys have decided the same, time to race the real races made for us..Canada and Oregon. Oh and Idaho ;) ..maybe :evil: WOA!!!..K.E. you almost swore! :thumb:
Your guys? Are you talking about all the hot young guys you keep oiled up back at your love nest?
Yeah' I think there are too many events showing up that are more fun, more challenging, and different.(SUCH AS THE HOOD RIVER EVENT) :sneaky:
I am not going to lie, the WIM has been fun. I just want to progress and I am not getting anything out of the WIM anymore.
Hey Cory, I heard your "boys" had a little after hours fun at Schwietzer? :nono:

[oly]

Your guys? Are you talking about all the hot young guys you keep oiled up back at your love nest?
Yeah' I think there are too many events showing up that are more fun, more challenging, and different.(SUCH AS THE HOOD RIVER EVENT) :sneaky:
I am not going to lie, the WIM has been fun. I just want to progress and I am not getting anything out of the WIM anymore.
Hey Cory, I heard your "boys" had a little after hours fun at Schwietzer? :nono:


So thats why he ordered 500 bucks in Pedros lube?? EWWWWW.....

Wim has been fun, but i think alot of the fun is all the friends and the social part. Racing is fun, but its not all about that. If it was we'd all leave 10 minutes after our run like the other crowd does. So, if less people are showing to wim then it will be less fun....

[holliswood]

So thats why he ordered 500 bucks in Pedros lube?? EWWWWW.....

Wim has been fun, but i think alot of the fun is all the friends and the social part. Racing is fun, but its not all about that. If it was we'd all leave 10 minutes after our run like the other crowd does. So, if less people are showing to wim then it will be less fun....

I totally agree!!!! :thumb:

[66]

great timing. here is Wendy's letter below:



Hello everybody! Just when you thought you were done hearing from us for the year…..we’re baaaacccckk!

Let me start by saying I hope you are enjoying your summer after surviving another season of WIM racing. It was a very challenging season for us….thanks for your support, helpful suggestions and hanging in there with us! We hope you will notice that we have listened to your great ideas and that by spring of 2005 you’ll have as much energy to race as the energy you will see from us!

We have begun work on next season to bring you more value for your racing buck, including hooking up with several groups/individuals to improve existing courses. Also, a scouting trip over to the west side may be in order to find some different venues over there. We will let you know when we are coming so those of you that have ideas can give us a little tour as well as let Michael and I sleep on your couches, eat your food and hog your remotes! However, the following paragraph is where the excitement really begins!!!

Round and Round Productions has been invited to put on a Super D race at Silver Mountain, Idaho in conjunction with their Summer Concert Series. The event, known as “Silveroxx” will include 5 bands on 2 stages with national act Fishbone as headliners. There will also be a big air show featuring world-renowned jumper Chris Duncan. All information can be found by going to our website, www.roundandround.com and clicking on the link for Silveroxx.

The Super D starts at the top of the Gondola, goes down through the ski area including zigzagging through the half pipe and continues down a mix of mostly single track and some fire road all the way down (about 6 miles) into the town of Kellogg, ID. After crossing the finish line, a short, flat pedal will take you back to the bottom of the Gondola. Did I forget to mention that there is $2500 in prize money up for grabs?! We are very excited about this event and the possibility of having a Group Health WIM Series race at this venue in 2005.

That’s all for now. Thanks again for your support this past season and stay tuned for a new and improved Group Health WIM Series for 2005!

See ya!

Eric Ewing
Round & Round Productions
418 E Pacific
Spokane, WA 99202
509-455-7657
www.roundandround.com



Guard well within yourself that treasure, kindness. Know how to give without hesitation, how to lose without regret, how to acquire without meanness. -- George Sand

[bibs]

I totally agree!!!! :thumb:


no nothing happened..it was just a fun week! good time and bikes!

[RhinofromWA]

great timing. here is Wendy's letter below:
Damn you beat me to it....I posted it in it's own thread. :o:

[Borregokid]

My feeling as a xcer is that downhill should be the top dog at the WIMS events. For one thing DH has more younger riders than XC However XC riders overall outnumber DHers. The numbers of DH riders that showed up at Schweitzer from Washington was pretty low. After looking at the state listing, I counted 115 DH riders from Washington. There were 175 XC riders. I guess one of the questions RnR would be looking at is if we add more races-like Snoqualmie would the racers show up?

[NateH]

Curtis Asked me to post this for him as he is not a member.

From: Curtis Dunbar
Regarding: WIM and Downhill in the PNW.
Nat and Tad are putting into words exactly what "everyone" feels about
WIM. I have raced WIM for 4 or 5 years. I have talk about these
things with a lot of riders and what Nat and Tad are saying is the general
consciences. Now it is your turn to stand behind it. Many people out
there just do not want to really say anything because they are to nice,
enjoy winning on easy courses, do not want to make waves or offend Geno
or Wendy. Quit being nice, it does not get you what you want. Winning
on easy courses just gets your A__ kicked at National if you get there.
Start making waves because that is how the earth changes shape. As for
Geno & Wendy they are great people and I commend them for all the
effort they do put in when make these races happen. I realize that it can
be frustrating for them and takes a lot of time. I think we all
understand that. The WIM series is part of the business of running Round and
Round Productions. We pay Round and Round Productions, good money, to
provide us with the service of putting on downhill race competitions.
In fact a race fee costs as much or more than what a lift ticket costs
at Whistler, race entry in a BC Cup, race entry fee at an Oregon DH
series event or even music concerts. WHAT THIS IS TALKING ABOUT IS NOT
EXCUSES OF WHY IT WILL NOT WORK AND WHAT THE PITFALLS ARE. We have gotten
enough excuses over the years. IT IS ABOUT WHAT "YOU" AS RACERS WANT
IN A DOWNHILL RACE COURSE AND SERIES.
Are you happy with driving 3 to 5 hours to race somewhere not even
similar to what you normally would ride or representative of the direct the
sport of downhill is going? Tell us.
Are you happy with the typical Washington State Championship including
a 300 yard flat sprint across a field? Tell Us.
Do you like hitting dangerous jumps at 20 to 30 miles per hour, built
of picnic tables or rotten wood? Tell Us.
Are you happy with practicing for 3 or 4 hours and only getting 3 runs?
Tell Us.
Maybe what turns you on is going to all the WIM races & finishing in
the top 5 overall (which by NORBA qualifies you to compete for the US
National Title). By attending most of the races you are the bread and
butter of the WIM, the people who's money keep it going. WIM
(RoundandRound) rewards there most dedicated regional competitors with a beanie
(sock cap) in the middle of the summer.

The bottom line here is that we and many others feel the WIM (Round and
Round) has lost touch with their client, "US" the riders.

We want WIM (Round and Round) to listen to us and do something about
it. I, for one, want them to keep doing the WIM series. They have done
it for years and I thank them for that. I started racing WIM and I
want to keep it that way. Sure if they do not change a thing I will most
likely still race WIM. But it is time for a change, a change for the
better, an improvement. There is no reason for WIM to loose clients to
the Oregon races or to Canada. They can keep all of their clients and
even add more. We need your support and feedback. It is like
organizing a Union. Geno and Wendy (WIM) are used to hearing from a few people
louder than the others and they ignore them. If we want to improve the
level of competition throughout WIM, we all need to ask for it. The
race locations, courses and services need to reflect the clients. Think
about the following things:
1st - Do you want more challenging downhill courses?
2nd - Are you willing to help with time and effort to get them?
3rd - Are you frustrated, bored or unchallenged by the current race
selection which WIM provides?
4th - Do you feel that more riders would come out to race if the course
situation improve?
5th - Do you think the current downhill riders dedication to come out
to the races would increase if the courses improve?
6th - Do you think that the WIM race series prepares you for the
courses and competition we would see at a National event?
7th - Do you feel that the WIM series is a bit out of touch with the
needs and wants of its clients?

We can find new venues there are many places. White Pass, Sno-Q,
Stevens, Crystal, Port Angeles, Beacon Hill, Schweitzer, Mission Ridge,
Olympia, Bellingham, private land - Farmer or Ranchers back yard / tree
farm. We can build new courses. As many of you know I and friend have
done a lot of trail building and trail maintenance. IT TAKES A LOT OF
WORK. WIM will need help. WIM will need to ask the right people for
that help. To make changes to the current courses or to build new ones we
must do it this Fall. BUILDING A DH RACE COURSE ONE WEEK BEFORE THE
RACE DOES NOT WORK. It will fall apart we have seen it over and over.
The reason being, the course dirt has to get a winter on it to pack in
or else the burms and jumps will not make it through practice like
always. We need crew chiefs and crews willing to work hard and follow
direction to build courses. If we can get permission to improve the courses
or make new ones, WIM needs experienced builders to take on the role of
crew chiefs. The crew chiefs would design the overall course and
improvements together. I advise the course than be broken into sections
with an overall plan of what we want to achieve. Keeping in mind time is
limited for everyone our goals and course changes should reflect that.
Each crew chief should have a crew and a section of the trail to
improve, create and finish. There are a lot of strong backs out there. Many
people, ride many of the trails without ever doing trail work. Many
people race all season without ever even saying if they like the courses.
Here is your chance to give back, to improve yourself and the series.
There is a lot here to think about. The biggest thing is do you want
things to change for the better. Do you want better service.
I know I do. And if things do not change, I will do what I have done
this year and last. By my Whister season pass early, race the WIM
season because it is my only real option, Bitch about it the whole time and
build my own trails to practice on but at least I will know we tried.
DO YOU WANT CHANGE???????
Thanks and you can contact me at cdunbar@ansonindustries.com
Curtis Dunbar, Team Downhill Zone Seattle Washington

[NateH]

Sticky anyone?

[Snacks]

You want changes? There was another race series last year that offered challenging courses, top notch swag, plenty of shuttles and practice time......

[66]

You want changes? There was another race series last year that offered challenging courses, top notch swag, plenty of shuttles and practice time......


You tease. that's like reminding us that we have a great ski resort 50 miles from downtown seattle with great riding that we used to be able to ride.

The KR races were wonderful. I would love to race anything you folks had your hands in.

[oly]

Sticky anyone?

Is there even a mod for this forum anymore? PM freak or Ridemonkey.......

Tell curtis thanks for the read! He has some well said points.

D

[clognot]

Yes, I would support it. I would also like to request that RnR consider these new DH venues for 2005 to have a minimum standard for technical difficulty. We could request that Beacon Hill be that standard. More difficult courses (even if it is in the same locations as in 2004) seem to be a major request from many new and experienced DH riders. I am willing to help make that happen. DH Riders are increasing in talent and skill, and if WIM courses match that, we might actually start seeing an increase in new rider turnouts as well.

My son wants to race XC at Winthrop's fat tire festival in October. I can be available that weekend to work on the Winthrop DH course if in fact we have a go ahead to do so.

cb

[66]

...minimum standard for technical difficulty. We could request that Beacon Hill be that standard.

cb



Does anyone else feel that beacon is fun but not a good direction for DH racing? It's like a mountain cross course, only twice as long. I'm not trashing you, clognot, you just said it last. If I’m all alone then I can accept that. But if the common consensus is that we would like the move toward being able to hang with national level races, beacon is not going to do the trick.

That said, beacon is a blast to ride. Every time I go to the eastside to visit my mother, I try and get a couple runs. But it's really a silly racecourse.

[clognot]

Granted, some parts of it are, but aside from the 3-5 foot drops here and there, when was the last time you saw a 25 foot rock face on a mountain cross course? All kidding aside, it is a course that keeps you downhilling from top to bottom, as opposed to pedalling and falling asleep. One could also argue that it bears the most crashes of all the WIM courses, which means it is a decent challenge for the average rider.

The point of this thread is to state weather you agree with a change or not. I agree, and hope that Beacon Hill can stay a part of the WIM and be a minimum standard for other courses to aspire...as well as "surpass". Make sense?

cb

[66]

good point about the crashes. and the rock wall. I do agree and I sent my email. but i guess noone would no that aside from me. :D

[NateH]

You want changes? There was another race series last year that offered challenging courses, top notch swag, plenty of shuttles and practice time......

I understand your point and respect it but please stay on the WIM topic, I don't see this as a productive addition to our goal. Sure there was another series but it had its problems too (direct competition with WIM hurt in the long run) But this is not the time or the place to debate that.

[NateH]

As far as Spokane for a standard goes, despite its short length it is what we could classify as a "real downhill course" What we hope to do is update all the courses this year then in the future we can plan a work party at 1 course at the end of each year. This party would basicaly be a weekend for anyone who wants to come to work, drink some beers and relax with some cool people. Our basic goal is to race in the spring and summer and do some work in the fall when the rain can help us.

[Snacks]

I understand your point and respect it but please stay on the WIM topic, I don't see this as a productive addition to our goal. Sure there was another series but it had its problems too (direct competition with WIM hurt in the long run) But this is not the time or the place to debate that.
This is Kevin, too lazy to log out of Snacks.
There was never any "direct competition with WIM"? All races were scheduled around the WIM schedule. Direct competition with Whistler maybe...

This is like the season ending broken record I hear and have been hearing for going on 10 years now. "we want changes...blah blah blah......."
Some people threaten to "boycott" the series if nothing changes and some people actually follow through, but I've never seen a person at a BC Cup that was boycotting the WIM series?
None of the Western WA venues could handle the amount of people that come to a WIM race with the exception of PA. And this especialy includes Monte - it is a logistical nightmare to put on a race there. If we could build a new course in a totally different location in the forrest (and they have said they are open to this) it would be more feasible.
As for ski area venues, Snoqualmie and WIM aren't going to happen (Sno - "they still owe us $xxxxxx", WIM - "they are trying to bill us for things never included in the original contract...") and I've heard rumblings of the same thing with Crystal. WIM was going to go to White Pass a few years back, but the place thinks access roads are good places for DH courses. Things and attitudes change, but I think the big issues with ski areas are envirornmental concerns. Why risk your USFS permits (netting millions of $$ every winter) to let some company put on a race for one weekend (netting you maybe a few hundred $$).
I think the best thing to try is to get WIM to reconsider some previous locations like Lookout Pass, 49 North (Chewelah), even Waterville and new places that are showing interest like Silver Mountain. All of these locations would require pretty much all new courses. But like Curtis said, they need to be built now, to let the berms and jumps and what have you set up.
Also, make it worthwhile for people to come work on courses. I'm not going someplace like Winthrop (again) on a Thursday morning and staying two extra nights for nothing. At least throw down some swag or lunch or something????
Which brings up a point about the existing courses - I got e-mails all year long requesting people to come work on the courses before races, but when you talk to Mike L. or the other course crew (sorry, don't remember their names) they said no one showed up? Everyone says "I want a new course and am willing to do the work myself.." but by the looks of it, hardly anyone put up, i.e., put up or shut up?
I have went over to eastern WA to work on courses only to be told that we can't do anything new, only "modify" whats already there. When I'm told we can build something new, even at existing locations, I'll do my share and try to drag as many people as possible with me.

I'm glad your all enthusiastic about this and wish you luck.

[Snacks]

I understand your point and respect it but please stay on the WIM topic, I don't see this as a productive addition to our goal. Sure there was another series but it had its problems too (direct competition with WIM hurt in the long run) But this is not the time or the place to debate that.

This is Snacks.....

First of all like Kevin said there was no direct competition with WIM at our races, just competition with Whistler.

Sorry if you think I'm not addressing the whole change WIM issues, but this is the same thread, different year.

Before you go to WIM with a petition that they change or boycott, which there is a good chance they'll say 'see ya', why don't you approach them in a non-threating way? Shoot them an e-mail and ask them what you're group can do to improve the courses for next year.

[clognot]

Snacks,

You are right. We will use respect in the presentation. I spoke with the thread starters, and basically that is what they want to do. Go to RnR, in a non threatening way of course, and see if there is a chance to improve on courses. I'm new to DH, but since this has been discussed for years apparently, with nothing much being done, the backing of many who respond to this thread will simply be a way of showing RnR that the majority (or many) do wish for course upgrades and seem ready to help make it happen. This petition will just be to show them what their customers prefer. And a business is supposed to be all about the customer, right? Wendy and Geno are good people and whether we succeed in improving on the WIM series for 2005 or not won't affect how we treat them.

cb

[speedybeaver1]

I think it is VERY important to approach WIM in a positive and respectful way as well. We must act like adults to be successful in this endeavor.

Also, keep in mind, like Kevin said, that WIM has been unable to alter courses and land new venues due to USFS rules and the need for VERY expensive Environmental Impact Statements in order to build trails even at existing ski resorts. Those types of studies can cost up to a million dollars depending on the proposal and level of public involvement (and believe me there are many folks out there who don't want trails for bikes).

Lastly, I heard rumors that RNR is looking at using Loop Loop Ski Area near Twisp/Winthrop as an alternative to Spokane, when Spokane gets closed due to a new development in that area. I have not been to Loop Loop, but they do have an old Quad from Crystal and I have riden xc trails just northwest of there and the terrian will likely be good.

So keep the ideas flowing, but keep an open mind about WHY these things are difficult to accomplish. The best bet is likely going to be private land, where the federal government and EISs won't be necessary, or working closely with a place like Crystal, where trails already exist and a relationship existed in the past. But lets leave the negotiating up to RNR and give them out support in other ways for now. I agree with Kevin, people need to commit to trail building for REAL and others can possibly help RNR behind the scenes where they have expertise or knowledge (know land owners, contract/lease issues, etc). Lets form some work groups for the fall, before it snows as Keving suggested, then the trails will be far better off next summer.

Anyhoot, good luck. I'll email you.

[oly]

I guess one thing that meant to convey in my original comment was that i'd like to be able to go ride a resort without having to be there racing. Thats why i suggested sending a place like Crystal a list of people willing to support a summer operation regardless of R&R's involvment. Maybe if Crystal was open for weekends someone else would be willing to step in and run a race promotion. Leave WIM to hold their events at their standard places wondering why no one shows to DH anymore......

In reality this debate goes deeper than just improving WIM. Sure, at the current wim venues things can be improved/changed to make thing challenging and smoother running.... But the mention of Ski resorts brings up another dynamic that may or may not ever change.... That ultimatley comes down to money crunchers doing the math. Maybe some feedback from the potential user base would help to open their eyes......

[ioscope]

I wanna race beginner DH.
post race times/links

[NateH]

I wanna race beginner DH.
post race times/links

This thread is not about any particular race.

[mplutodh1]

Here we go again...

Alright I am going to explain something to you Nate... getting a place to hold a race is NOT anywhere near as easy at it sounds. I found out first hand this year. We went through 3 locations before we FINALLY found a place to host an event yet we were too late to make it happen this year with the DNR closing down the land due to fire hazard. So before you go blowing steam up the panties of everyone at Round and Round you might actually do a little research of your own on how difficult it is to host a race and to get courses that you might think are "totally sick my bre!" (god I hate talking like that even when making a point) The DNR and most land owners aren't going to let you build whatever you want, however you want to build it. For DNR, if a stream or stream bed is of a certain size a bridge must be built. If it is beyond that size a study has to be done to determine what needs to be done and the ways to approach it, if even possible, usually its just delaying the inevitable. Most private land owners are scared ****less with this generations habit of everyone wanting to sue for burning themselves with their own damn coffee. Most arent even willing to give you a chance to prove to them that they wont be liable, others even after showing them this aren't too sure about it, and rightfully so.

In other words, do your homework before you go pissing people off. Round and Round does a great job of hosting events, and like any business they do have areas in which they can improve, if you want something to be improved approach them politely intsead of throwing a petition in their face. Did you fill out the WIM survey? Did you tell your friends to? Are you willing to volunteer to work with land owners to find locations?

[mplutodh1]

Does anyone else feel that beacon is fun but not a good direction for DH racing?


Yup, I enjoy the course, but at the same time I don't enjoy the "race" itself. Where I would like to see DH racing going is more like Schweitzer but a little shorter obviously. Or heck even Wenatchee I enjoy. The race is won by a pedal stroke here, a bobble there. Not who wants to hit something and who wants to make it to the bottom so they can drive home... Beacon is not a race course, beacon is a freeride area. A race course should flow, beacon doesnt flow IMO, its drop.... pedal... drop/jump... pedal.... drop...pedal. A race course should challenge you almost the whole time, drops are fun and nice, so are jumps but they arent everything. Chatter bumps, rock gardens, off camber corners, thats where racing should be going I think. Show who can handle a bike, not who has the balls.

[NateH]

Ok I think I need to lay a few things down before I go insane:

1.) I have known Wendy, Gino, and the Whole round and round crew for over 5 years and am on great terms with all of them (I have stayed at the rn'r condo at schweitzer for 2 years in a row and was given the WIM junior award.) So anyone who thinks that I don't care about them can just shove off.

2.) Our goal is in no form to present WIM with a boycot. Someone on here said boycot and everyone has seized that our goal is by hostile means. What we are asking of your guys and not getting much in the way of cooperation is a very simple task. We simply want to know if you like the courses now or if you don't. If you dont we ask you to send an email to me so that we can send them an email saying what we want to do and who agrees. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO THREATEN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!! We simply are trying to get some positive change towards what we hear in the shuttle trucks, on our weekly rides, and from all the poeple on line. If we don't see a change we aren't coming to boycot we are simply going to go to races we like (Spokane, Schwietzer, BC Cups) We are doing this cause we like the WIM series and would rather stay local for our races.

3.) Willingness to help is not an issue. We already have about 10 people totaly lined up who are willing to come and help dig, scout, talk to land owners, etc...

The whole point of this thing was simply to get a group of people together that agree that they'd like to see a change so that we can civily present WIM with a unified and cohesive set of change that we'd like to see. I am probably going to help on the "Scouting party to the west side" that Erik mentioned in his letter (which is being done by otis the intern) So please stop bashing on me, I am trying to help. Anymore responses that don't read what I keep saying are going to be met with extreme scorn. Not cause I'm mean but because I have a job and a life to and can't keep spending 4 hours a day writing back explaining what I have already said half a dozen time.
Good night to you all and thanks for your input.

[trailhacker]

..."totally sick my bre!" (god I hate talking like that even when making a point)...

I refuse to listen to KISW ever again until they get rid of the retard that is always talking like that!!!

[clognot]

Sigh....This thread is not about the difficulties that might arise when looking to create a new DH course. Please read the original threads, and you might find a couple of replies that steer us back to the original thread topic such as, "I don't see this as a productive addition to our goal". RnR can only benefit from a petition presented in kind and with sincerity. The customers have a right to speak, and that's all this thread is trying to accomplish.

Perhaps the word 'survey' is better than 'petition', but I would consider this thread to me more of a survey in support of an idea..., that is all it is at this time.


cb

[bibs]

I refuse to listen to KISW ever again until they get rid of the retard that is always talking like that!!!


yea, agreed! I met that guy at Hooters once, the "ricker" or some ****! I almost kicked his ass..hes a fag!

[mplutodh1]

yea, agreed! I met that guy at Hooters once, the "ricker" or some ****! I almost kicked his ass..hes a fag!


YUP! its the station of choice in the shop but as soon as that tool gets on the air we all run for the tuner

[NateH]

Please stop talking about radio stations. I'd like to keep this on topic.

[trailhacker]

Please stop talking about radio stations. I'd like to keep this on topic.

HAHAHAHA!!!!! Good luck!!!! How bout those Sea-chickens this year?

[bibs]

HAHAHAHA!!!!! Good luck!!!! How bout those Sea-chickens this year?

yea, good the ricker needs to get killed in the face@! I stay away from that station just cuase of him, what a tool!

Tell Tad I have that spering for him...

Hey do you any of you guys like GI Joe?..I found some cool websites!

[buildyourown]

yea, good the ricker needs to get killed in the face@! I stay away from that station just cuase of him, what a tool!

Tell Tad I have that spering for him...

Hey do you any of you guys like GI Joe?..I found some cool websites!



LOL, focus bibs, focus.
I think you have ADD. Try and keep the posts congnisant.

[NateH]

Thanks for the seriousness guys.

[bibs]

Im totally serious, I hate the ricker...hes a fag! AND tell Tad I have the Boxxer spring for him!....whats not serious about that!???

[Certified Drunk]

http://images.radcity.net/3006/678446-s.jpg

[oly]

Thanks for the seriousness guys.

Nate, this is always expected on a 4+ page thread..... it always gets off topic... why? i dont know.... just the way the monkey works.....

[Borregokid]

You guys got your worked cut out for you. This week I got my invitation to the "18th Annual Methow Valley Fall Bike Festival-Fun For the Whol Family!" They list three different races-no down hill races. So there is another race that is going away.

[mplutodh1]

You guys got your worked cut out for you. This week I got my invitation to the "18th Annual Methow Valley Fall Bike Festival-Fun For the Whol Family!" They list three different races-no down hill races. So there is another race that is going away.


Old news, they didnt draw a very big crowd in the past, so instead of focusing on the DH they added cyclocross and road events.

[NateH]

I was realy disappointed by the mtn. bike festival. I think that that race is just an awesome way to end the season.

[NateH]

From: Tad Evans

Hey guys Monday is the day we are sending our ideas into WIM. I think WIM is right on target with their lame courses. Although we have some whiners, 61 to be exact, 5 who are actualy concerned enough to email us directly. The majority, 932 to this point, have absolutly nothing to say. So it would seem that many people are happy with the races just the way they are. Without help from the majority, which in this case is a simple email to Nate, I don't beleive we will get anything done. Still Nate and I plan to push ahead hope you guys like the drives to B.C.

[Chuckwagon]

I buy my apples from the local fruit stand; have been for years. two (2) one pound bags per week. The guy who runs the stand always manages to strike up great conversations with me when I shop, and over the years, one of those friend/customer situations has developed.

Anyways, the cost of running an orchard has continued to rise, and as a result, quality has dropped. Now, his apples are usually bruised, sometimes plain old rotten, and every once in a while, they are full of worms!

Despite the serious drop in quality, I have continued to do buisness with the fruit stand since he is sort of a friend. In fact, I haven't even mentioned my extreme dislike for the taste of worms inside apples; after all- I would not want to offend him.

Apples:WIM races connect the dots...

[Jewels]

Just be glad you guys have a race series at all. True, WIM doesn't do the best job with DH but you must admit that Spokane is one of the funnest courses. I'd rather just ride there on an off weekend anyway. Going to a WIM race consists of spending waaaay too much money to do 4 runs. I could do more riding for absolutely nothing and be a 50% better rider for it. But if you wanna stand around with all the gear bumpin shoulders all weekend eyeing eachothers sh!t and then complain about it afterwards then thats your fault. If you don't like whats on tv then turn it off. It's simple....the only exception to Washington racing is Kevin Ryan series. That dude did it right.

Racing in Washington = too much talk, not enough ROCK!

Quit yer bitchin and go race in Canada

[oly]

Quit yer bitchin and go race in Canada

Funny you say that cuz we are this weekend!!!!!!

[Snacks]

If you don't like whats on tv then turn it off. It's simple....the only exception to Washington racing is Kevin Ryan series. That dude did it right.



Hahaha! Thanks Jewels ;)

[oly]

Nate, i just sent you an e-mail. Now you have 6....... :)

[NateH]

Thanks for the email damon, everyone helps. We agree that Kevin put on some great races but he is no longer putting them on so any talk of how badass they WERE just seems wasted. If you (Snacks, Jewels, Trailhacker, etc...) Have any information about a KR series for next year I'd love to hear it cause we can just wrap this thing up now. Jewels, I guess you probably don't like racing much, and it seems like you think the WIM series doesn't take quite the right approach to things either, so my question is, why are you arguing with us, go be an internet tough guy somewhere else.

[Jewels]

What is WIM racing? It should be fun, challenging, and rewarding, right? I have a hard time finding any of those aspects in driving 3-4 hours to ride over picnic table, and for finals no less. But I digress...WIM does a great job at providing the best they can and are a good group of people. If I don't like somthing I just go and do somthing else. If you want to do ton of riding while racing, do some XC country...if you wanna stand in line and fight to get on a truck to do 3-4 practice runs, race DH. The only problem with WIM dh is the lack of chair lift access. If you guys can pool your $$(ha) and start building lifts than I say good luck...in the meantime i'll be out riding my bike :thumb:

[66]

so Nate, did you guys ever approach RnR? what did they say?

[NateH]

In the works man. I have a letter drafted and ready but due to the race over the weekend I've been super busy. It will definatly be off tomarrow (tuesday) and I will tell you guy whats up as soon as I hear.

[NateH]

Dear Round and Round,

In behest of concerned racers from around the Northwest Region, Myself, Nathan Hoch, and my friend John Evans would like to bring to your attention some things that we see as highly troubling and offer assistance to remedy theses problems. We appreciate the fact that we are lucky enough to have a local race series however; in respect to our courses, we are lagging behind the rest of the world by what seems like ten years. In support of your series and why we want to help, you guys defiantly care about the riders and do an awesome job organizing races, but you are working with courses that don’t truly allow your talents to shine. As testament to how our courses are compared to the rest of the country and world look at the results of our local racers at the Schweitzer Mountain Nationals, WIM racers are not adept at riding full Nationals level courses because they don’t get to ride them. Also as a result of the low level courses many riders have started to use their money to go to Whistler, where the same funds can pay for lodging and buy a lift ticket that allows them to ride some of the most challenging trails in the world. As part of the riding community we hear from everyone, and what we have learned is that many people instead of trying to change things or even voice their opinions have opted to simply not race WIM series events. We don’t want to see this.
Our intention is to bring the challenge, fun, prestige, and most importantly the racers back to WIM series races. What we have done is comb all the riders we could get in contact with and come up with some good preliminary ideas to help you guys and suggest what racers would like to see in their 2005 WIM series races. After all what fun is racing without the challenge that large fields of riders, and more technical courses provide?
So after much thought these are the suggestions that we have heard and also what we will do to help you attain the level of racing that the racers desire.

I. Course Locations

Here is a Rating of last year’s courses by the riders: (Ratings are in 1-10, 1 being I would never return to this course, 10 Being sign me up for next year!)

Spokane (Both courses): 7- Definitely much loved courses and deservedly so, only lacking in length and some shuttling difficulty. The only courses that we would keep unchanged. Should be a benchmark for other courses, besides length. Beginners have commented that some of the easy-outs could use some work to make them more rideable.

Winthrop: 5- A course with much potential despite some complaints. With some additions this course could be one of the best (see: Section III: Course Work)

Chelan: 5- Again, a course that is fun but in need of much improvement and repair. (See: Section III: Course Work)

Wenatchee: 2- Far substandard but with land access issues and lack of existing trails to improve bringing this course up to standards is out of reach. Definitely a course that 50% of racers will not be returning to.

Schweitzer: 9- A vast improvement and an all around challenging course. With all the makings of a great course (chairlift, length, difficulty) Schweitzer was defiantly the best WIM event of the season. The only thing preventing this course from being a 10 is drive length and the shear exhaustion of a weekend of racing there.

II. Suggestions on Future Series locations.

The number one suggestion by racers and also the number one question has to do with the ski areas. With more than a dozen areas and people clamoring to ride lifts, why are there no races at the ski areas in our state?

A favorite that is conspicuously missing is Port Angeles. One of the best courses ever raced in Washington and with the addition of a Pro/Expert line one of THE places to race in Washington. P.A. is closer to many racers than Spokane or Wenatchee and has landowners who are amiable to riding. There was an organized ride and a race this season and both were said by many to be the best events of there kind this year. This was a course sadly missed as a WIM series event. Perhaps a place for future courses as well.

With the partnering of Round and Round and the promoters of the Oregon races for the Northwest Cup what is preventing a Mt. Hood WIM race. This would be an awesome addition that is equidistant from both sides of the state.

Just a suggestion, is a possible partnership with the promoters of the BC cup races and Cycling BC for future races. After talking with the head of the BC cup race series there is a definite enthusiasm for future races in Washington (Contact Gary Jackson of Cycling BC.) This would open such venues as Hemlock ski resort, a ski area open to bikes and within a 3-hour drive of Seattle.

West side areas are something that a large amount of riders would like to see. Surprisingly this sentiment is shared by both east and westsiders. Many of my friends from Spokane and Coeur d’ lane have expressed that the riding scene on the west side of Washington has far outpaced what is happening near their homes.


III. Course Work

To reach the goals that we are trying to set we have enlisted a number of experienced trail builders who are willing to donate there time to the cause of improving courses. What we would like to see is an across the table change for 05 season followed by an organized fall course work weekend, for one course each year into the future. This way we can ensure that as the face of mountain biking changes so too does our race series. The essential part here is that course work must be done in the fall when it has the chance to get rained and snowed on which will in turn make our work semi-permanent instead of simply making new piles of dust.









IV. An Imaginary Schedule for 2005

Race 1: Spokane- Either Course
Race 2: Winthrop- Bigger, Better, Faster, Stronger!!!
Race 3: Chelan- Now with even more ridiculousness!
Race 4: Port Angeles- an old classic returns.
Race 5: *New* west side venue
Race 6: *New* west side venue and Series Final

We didn’t include Schweitzer as a series race due to both logistics and organization. Have a National event as part of a series creates point’s issues as well as simply being a lot of extra work.

V. Organizational Changes

At Nationals and many other races the organizers have chosen to run Pro and Semi-pro racers last, with an ascending order to the race. In other words, beginners come down the course when it is freshest and are done first. Then Sports, then Experts, followed by Semi-Pro/ Pro riders. This allows the beginners the best course while adding challenge to the Pro event. Also this allows new racers who might not otherwise have a chance to watch the more experienced riders come down the course.

With a race series of six or less races dropping two events is not a logical way to run a series. This takes away the whole idea of a series. In Nationals the champion often has a 22nd place finish in his year but having good finishes otherwise is what makes him a rounded rider. Make the riders either commit to the whole series or just come out for a day of racing. Dropping one race allows riders to compensate for injury, family trouble or something as simple as a crash. Two or more simply promotes riders to be less consistent and rounded.

Riders we have talked to have voiced that 10-15$ more per race would not be a bad thing if our courses and shuttling were improved. Hopefully this will result in better venues and better shuttling.


We appreciate all the work that goes into our WIM series races but the bottom line is that racers are customers and many have begun to decide to take their business elsewhere. This is the last thing that we as racers want to see. Hopefully with a partnership between the racers and the organizers we can all come out happy and ahead.

Sincerely,
Nathan Hoch
John (Tad) Evans
And Concerned Racers Everywhere

[mplutodh1]

Well glad to see you voiced your opinions instead of pissing and moaning much more on a discussion board. I think you are going the right direction on a few things but others I think the wrong. Unfortunately I might stand alone on this one but I don't particularly like the Spokane courses. When I started racing several years ago my favorite courses were Mt. Spokane, Schweitzer, and Winthrop. In recent years, Mt Spokane hasn't been included but Wenatchee I enjoyed.

My reasonings - Spokane isn't a race course, Beacon is a playground, good place to go ride for fun, enjoy a day of pushing up a hill and hitting the "big shiat" or whatever the Jr. Experts or big balled riders want to call it. Ever listened to people complain about the courses, particularly the younger up and comers in the sport. The things I usually hear from the individuals who aren't "huckers" are that they just didn't have the balls to do a drop/jump or whatever at Beacon. Listen to the same thing about Schweitzer, they didn't complain about having balls, they complained about not being in shape, not being able to hold onto a bike for that long and stay in control at speed. Racing in my mind is combining a bit of everything, endurance, skills, practice and a small bit of balls thrown in there. I see courses like Wenatchee, Winthrop and Schweitzer as good places for EVERYONE to step it up, the "huckers" or so called experienced riders complain about these courses because they can't show off how big their balls are, and the times are much closer, one bobble in a corner could mean the race for the upper ranks. Well why not have everyone strive to be a much better rider and learn how to ride controlled at speed through difficult terrain rather than teach them how to huck a drop or jump. I was just looking back at the World Cup held at Snoqualmie and the terrain used for that course. If many of you remember there weren't particularly many drops or jumps, just steep ass rooty rocky terrain, sharp corners and a variation of speeds. To me that course showed who had skill not balls. So again, I know a lot of downhillers, even many who are part of my team favor the big huck/jump courses, but my argument remains that racing should show skills not balls.

As for your comment about paying more to race, $10-15 more for better courses? Dang they better be TOP notch fun courses with lift access to get people to pay that kind of money. To drive all the way to Beacon paying for the gas, hotel, food, and then a spendy race entry I better get some serious fun and a lot of runs out of my weekend.

As for courses, I know many have said this before but I am going to say it again. It's great for everyone to say the courses need to change, I agree they need improvement but I also admit I don't have the time nor funds to drive to Spokane to lend a hand for a day to help improve the courses. Until more people actually do step up not much that is going to change. R&R doesn't have a staff to build courses, volunteers do this, and a lot of that is all just talk. Part of why we still have the courses we have had for a few years in some locations.

[NateH]

I'm not going to argue, but I disagree about what you are saying and if you read your own statement you echo our sentiments exactly. As you said, "Racing is about controling your bike at speed over rough terrain" What about Wenatchee classifies as rough terrain. I'm not going to respond to any more talk about this though because I am going to go practice riding my bike at speed over rough terrain for the national championships. Where I hope to huck myself to a good result.

Cheers

[WARider]

Can't we all just get along ;)

Actually, it would be great if we could all get some sort of ballet together to get signatures and supporters for at least one resort in the state of Washington to open up chair access all summer long. Those locals who get to ride places like Whistler(as we all know), Platekill(NY), Snowshoe(WV), several locations in CO, several in CA, improve on a daily basis because of the 10-15 runs they get in a day. Most of us are stuck with one good run because it takes us all day to get to the top of something worth hiking...like my sig says ;). I'm coming in on the tail end of this and I'm fairly new to WA (2.5 years) but where I was last at was great for skills improvement as Tahoe runs several resort lifts a year. I think you locals of the PNW have a step up on the rest for skills in the North Shore arena and of course big hit in sketchy situations but when it comes to DH runs, we're lacking because of our lack lift access. When I first moved here I rode up at snoqualmie, and even though it's a rather weak spot to ride my board in the winter, it was pretty killer for DH riding even as short of a run as it was. So why doesn't Washington have chairlift access when just about every western state does?

[oly]

Mt Hood Ski Bowl has been running bikes on chairs for years. Anyone here ever go? They dont have a ton of trails, but its a place with some potential. We just raced there yesterday and it was a blast! Terrain was very challenging. They have big plans for that series too next season.

I for one will be attending more of those races next season........

also,
the letter to wim looks good. Most the points i agree with. I dont think though i'd pay 10-15 bucks more unless the races were held at a ski resort.... they can afford another truck with the current load of $$ they take in.... but i'd be willing to spend some more to help them cover insurance and stuff for running chairs.... maybe at the summit???

thanks,
damon

[WARider]

Mt Hood Ski Bowl has been running bikes on chairs for years. Anyone here ever go? They dont have a ton of trails, but its a place with some potential.
Oly,

What's the drive time to get to the parking lot from Seattle?

[NateH]

We agree that we wont pay 10-15 extra for spokane and like courses, but what about cool new places that have prices to access the land? If i'm going to a race I'd like to race somehting sweet but i agree that the price does get crazy. I already pay 10 more than the average so It doesn't seem too bad.

[oly]

Oly,

What's the drive time to get to the parking lot from Seattle?

Its just under 3 hrs from Olympia. Easy drive. I-5 S to I-205 to I-84to the Mt hood exit in gresham (forget the #), then on to HWY26 up to Government camp..

Its a pretty fun place. 2 chairs to get to the top. Old school chairs that are slow, unlike the nice quads of whistler. Its pretty cheap too. THeres a few DH trails and some blue mellower trails. Not sure how much longer they will be operating.....

D

[Snacks]

Mt Hood Ski Bowl has been running bikes on chairs for years. Anyone here ever go? They dont have a ton of trails, but its a place with some potential. We just raced there yesterday and it was a blast! Terrain was very challenging. They have big plans for that series too next season.

I for one will be attending more of those races next season........

also,
the letter to wim looks good. Most the points i agree with. I dont think though i'd pay 10-15 bucks more unless the races were held at a ski resort.... they can afford another truck with the current load of $$ they take in.... but i'd be willing to spend some more to help them cover insurance and stuff for running chairs.... maybe at the summit???

thanks,
damon

Hey D! How'd you and the rest of the PNW crew do down there this weekend?

[bibs]

wrong thread young lady!!! damn you Hijackers!!!! but did I mention the shore was good and free?...just checking LOL

[Snacks]

wrong thread young lady!!! damn you Hijackers!!!! but did I mention the shore was good and free?...just checking LOL

I know :blah: Anything to get Nate's panties in a bunch :nuts:

Glad you guys had a good time at the shore. Any video comin?

[bibs]

nope, no footage just rode! and Nate wears panties...like Victorias Secret? thats too much info!!! but to each there own!

[NateH]

Hey its just cause they're part of my dinese suit, and i prefer to call them speed underwear

[bibs]

well thats cool...I think...they better not be speed thiongs~~~

[NateH]

well they are pretty comfortable...but for some reason you guys seem to know more about them than I do ;) :thumb:

[bibs]

well duh, im a rep for Dianese undergarments..i should

[NateH]

So you wear panties too.?!?! Yay I'm not alone anymore!!!

[bibs]

well, i just ditched them..I am a "free" man now!!

[NateH]

Damn the racers and I are alone again. If only we could become "free" riders.

[bibs]

wheres the new news!!! GEEZZZ the suspense is killing me!

[NateH]

Alright so heres the deal. I heard from Erik at Rn'R today. He was the offical medic, now he's in charge of our WIM series. He and Mike are going to be making a trip over to the west side of the state on October 4th thru the 8th and they are interested in having a meeting with the riders. They asked for a group of 10-15 riders of all ages and abilities and even some non-racers. So I have the meeting place decided and I have some of the spots filled but if some of you guys would like to come and say your 2 cents I would love to have it. Please send me a PM with you Name, age, race class (if you race) and phone number if you are interested in attending. The meeting will be in North Bend. If I don't give you a call it's not cause I don't like you it is because I expect an excess of certain demographics and we can only have so many experts, semi-pros, begginers, etc... Also Erik told me about one of their for sure venues for 2005 and I will tell you that it is looking like its going to be a sweet season!!!

[krustydude]

Did things ever get figured out for the WIM. I raced a few last year and would like to race the whole season next year. I'm also interested in helping in any way I can.

[NateH]

Things did get figured out and next season is looking good. If you are interested in coming to help on some work party's P.M. me and we'll figure something out. Erik from round and round should be making an official announcment soon so i'll let him pass on the offical news.

[krustydude]

Sounds awesome. When they make the announcement will it end up on RM? I'd like to help on trail work or whatever.

[BigEvilBadBoy]

You know i was reading what bibs was saying about if people talked to wendy about what they wanted that they would simple stop putting on races, That is so messed up, WIM should realize that they put the races on for us, the riders, not for WIM exposure. With anything things need to evolve or they will die, They need to recognize that fact. If WIM is so worried about their profits, they should start listening to the riders, because without us where will there profits come from. I have never like the way WIM does business. It sucks to say but maybe if people did stop going to their races maybe, just maybe, it would open their eyes to the fact that they are not infallible. I honestly think they, both Wendy and Gino, need to go back to school and learn how to treat their customers and give them what they want. Instead of taking the attitude that you will like what we give you, now whut up and sit down. As far as the courses go; with an organization like WIM who has been around for a while, im sure they have made contacts with the right people to help get new and/or better places to race. More than likely its just laziness on WIMs part. Why should they change if people are still going and they are still making money?

[ioscope]

I am simple minded and disinterested in wishy washy idiotocracy.

What do I do to get in DH and xc races over here?

[NateH]

You know i was reading what bibs was saying about if people talked to wendy about what they wanted that they would simple stop putting on races, That is so messed up, WIM should realize that they put the races on for us, the riders, not for WIM exposure. With anything things need to evolve or they will die, They need to recognize that fact. If WIM is so worried about their profits, they should start listening to the riders, because without us where will there profits come from. I have never like the way WIM does business. It sucks to say but maybe if people did stop going to their races maybe, just maybe, it would open their eyes to the fact that they are not infallible. I honestly think they, both Wendy and Gino, need to go back to school and learn how to treat their customers and give them what they want. Instead of taking the attitude that you will like what we give you, now whut up and sit down. As far as the courses go; with an organization like WIM who has been around for a while, im sure they have made contacts with the right people to help get new and/or better places to race. More than likely its just laziness on WIMs part. Why should they change if people are still going and they are still making money?

As it turns out what Bibs said about Wendy and Gino was not correct. We have been talking with Erik from round and round who is now in charge of the WIM series and not only have we not gotten the WIM series shut down we have some very good changes set in stone for next year. I think the real problem with the NW race scene was that no one ever approached Rn'R with not only complaints but with thing they can actually do to fix them. In our meeting with R'NR we talked about a lot of things including ways to boost profits for them while adding funds for us to use on course work and still lower or keep our race fees the same. In the end they were super supportive and not at all negative. Thanks again to all of you who helped us with round and round you know who you are.

[Bullitrider]

I think part of the problem is some of the WIM officials depend on it as their livelihood. This is what makes it a promoters event instead of a riders event. In their defense, I'm sure it would be tough to hold down a 9-5 and run the races.

[Snacks]

I hear there are work parties scheduled?

Can someone please post the dates and locations? Thanks.

[Big B]

I am simple minded and disinterested in wishy washy idiotocracy.

What do I do to get in DH and xc races over here?

Does anybody have an answer for ioscope? I'd like to know how to get involved in the WIM DH race scene as well.

[66]

Races start in March. you can get lots of info at www.roundandround.com. They are the promoters. If you want to meet some of the people involved and do some work, this coming weekend we are doing work on the DH course in Chelan. That is a good step for the fall. On that note, i probably have open seats for the way there. I will be splitting saturday night and won't be able to drive anyone back.

[Big B]

Thanks for the info. I'm headed up to BC this weekend, otherwise that would have been great.

[Hack]

when are they gonna update the R&R site?

[NateH]

Don't know, hopefully soon.

[PsychO!1]

Things did get figured out and next season is looking good. If you are interested in coming to help on some work party's P.M. me and we'll figure something out. Erik from round and round should be making an official announcment soon so i'll let him pass on the offical news.

The 2005 schedule came out......What happened???

[holliswood]

I have got to give the guys an A for effort in trying to get WIM to rethink the way they run their DH races. But as I have seen over the several years I have been racing, it is not ask and you will receive. It is more like ask and we will tell you want you want to hear, or ask and we will move all the races farther east and only do a couple. After seeing the 05' schedule, I am so dissapointed! I hope this is an eye opener to all of you who got involved with WIM and tried to change the way your races are run. This has been going on for years! The only way to change it is to NOT ATTEND THEIR RACES! There are other options out there!

[66]

um, 3?

Round & Round Productions
2005 Season Schedule as of 01/01/05
(Schedule Subject to Change at Promoter’s Discretion)
WIM SERIES
Mc Mud Fest 03/19/05

Spokane WA
XC
Riverside Ruckus 04/02/05 Spokane WA XC
Beacon Blastoff 04/24/05 Spokane WA DH
Beacon Bomber 06/11/05 Spokane WA XC
Beacon Bomber 06/12/05 Spokane, WA DH
Silver Mountain WIM FINALS 06/25/05 Kellogg ID XC
Silver Mountain WIM FINALS 06/26/05 Kellogg ID DH

[NateH]

Well...







I have to say that I can simpathize with some of the problems that they are having but in the end I am highly disapointed with the way this whole thing went. To all of you race fans I have to recomend what I consider the best race series around even if WIM had changed their tune. The B.C Cup series. We did several of them this year and they were amazing, friendly people, awesome courses and nationals level organization. I just fired off an email to their director requesting both a schedule and some information on how us yanks can get our licenses in our respective catagorys instead of starting over again in beginner as is there system (no sandbaggers and no one in classes they don't beling in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Anyway for those of you look for races for next year this is the thing, WIM apparently isn't going to come around so I'm not gonna come around, I'll be at which ever WIMs I can make but any conflicts and I'm going to Canada.

Thanks all of you who tried to help us, some thing just aren't ment to be and apparently a cool race series in Washington is one of them.

[oly]

My biggest problem with the new WIM schedule is race#1 conflicts with hood, and #2 and #3 are separated by only 1 weekend. For myself and maybe others it will be impossible for 2 races so close in time that far away. Gas will be sky high next summer, you have hotels, food, race fees, ect..... I cannot afford this monitarly, and with family time. Its just a bad idea to do this back to back like that. Im going to e-mail eric and let him know this, and i encourage anyone else who has problems with this schedule to do the same. I doubt it will change anything, but who knows....

I might make spokane #2, but if i dont hope to see all my racing friends at Hood, Whistler,the BC races? (ill probably only do the BC race at Mt Washington....), and maybe the Idaho National this year....

[RhinofromWA]

You know a reentry into motorcycle racing and recreation is getting better looking all the time.....:(

There are 2-4 races a month for like 10 of the 12 months if you want to race. :angry:

3 races......2 Spokane and then Idaho. (Serious self pitty moment)

Hmmmm a new DH bike or a new motorcycle........:think:

I could keep what I have and recreate when I am in the mood and then just get a motorcycle and get back into what I grew up doing. Riding and racing dirt bikes......in 1.5-3hr races.....like extended DH runs.

:( I was hoping that was jsut confirmed locations and dates and more were to come.....

Hey if that is what they feal is best for them I can't hold it against them......I can however find a new hobbie to pour (or poor depending on your point of view :) ) my less than abundent money at.

Kevin :(
4+ yo DH bike
Slightly used Spec HT

[erikkellison]

Wow, there went all my hopes of ever racing DH. I guess I'll just continue to ride lift-serviced hills in Canada. Even Whistler is a shorter drive for me than to any of those venues in EaWA. Someone ought to point out to Erik at RnR that it's not good business to locate yourself further away from your customers (unless what you're selling is sellable remotely and shippable via FedEx). It's just bad business. And know it may be difficult to get DH racing in WeWA, but there is lots of land, and lots more people to contribute if racing DH here was as accessible as most of the trails. The majority of people just won't drive across the mountains for a mediocre race with poor uphill transportation and sub-par courses. My prediction: Bye Bye WIM. WeWA will become a playground for freeriders, not for DH racers (that's an overarching generalization, but considering the situation, I think it may be quite near the truth).

[goneskiian]

I'm curious as to how they get away with calling that the WIM series. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't WIM stand for Washington, Idaho and Montana? Looks more like the Spokane mountain bike series to me.

I was contemplating a move back onto the dirt after many year hiatus on the road, but it's hard to beat the 4 races a week I can do on the road within 2 hours of Seattle. I know, not quite the same racing experience.

Is there a schedule of other Western Wash. XC races out yet?

Thanks,
-Ian

[NateH]

WIM was changed a few years back from Washington Idaho Montana to Wheels in Motion.

[Corporatefailure]

its gonna be rough.

[Langer]

You know a reentry into motorcycle racing and recreation is getting better looking all the time.....:(

You can go to Monroe's MX track (brain fart on name) and practice for $40 all day long. Isnt that about the same as entering in a WIM race. Also Pacific Raceways has practice every wed in the summer and alternating sun in winter for $25 (not 100% sure on that but info is close). All this on the west side of the mountains.

[freeridekid]

You can go to Monroe's MX track (brain fart on name) and practice for $40 all day long. Isnt that about the same as entering in a WIM race. Also Pacific Raceways has practice every wed in the summer and alternating sun in winter for $25 (not 100% sure on that but info is close). All this on the west side of the mountains.

or you can go ride an entire orv park w/ a motocross track for free (Horn Rapids in Tri-Cities)

[Langer]

or you can go ride an entire orv park w/ a motocross track for free (Horn Rapids in Tri-Cities)

Is it free or do you have a hook up to get in?

[RhinofromWA]

You can go to Monroe's MX track (brain fart on name) and practice for $40 all day long. Isnt that about the same as entering in a WIM race. Also Pacific Raceways has practice every wed in the summer and alternating sun in winter for $25 (not 100% sure on that but info is close). All this on the west side of the mountains.Thanks Langer,

I am more of a woods/Desert racer and for teh most part that is free. I have dabbled in the MX stuff...but I suck :D so I stay away from that it is safer that way.

THere are about a half dozen MX tracks aroud the Monroe area....Private or open or club run it is a good place to go if you like outside MX

[krustydude]

horn rapids is completely free. it's part of the parks and rec department of richland. there is a pretty cool mx track, cart track, sprint boat coars, sand drag straight, quad/4X4 track, and sand trails. the track is closed on thursdays and fridays for grooming.

[clognot]

"Is there a schedule of other Western Wash. XC races out yet?"

There is a four XC race series in Feb and Mar at the South and North SeaTac riding areas. I believe it's on the 6th and 20th of each month. The Finals would be March 20th 2005. It think it's put on by Budu Racing?? Not really sure.

cb

[clognot]

Horn Rapids is awesome. Don't miss there February race when they open up acres of dunes for the event. It's the only time of the year dirt bikes can ride this mostly closed area. Juniper Dunes ORV is not far from there either.

cb

[Shredder]

"Is there a schedule of other Western Wash. XC races out yet?"

There is a four XC race series in Feb and Mar at the South and North SeaTac riding areas. I believe it's on the 6th and 20th of each month. The Finals would be March 20th 2005. It think it's put on by Budu Racing?? Not really sure.

cb


There is also a new 6-race XC series in western Washington. Check it out here:
www.IndieSeries.com

[Bike_junky]

http://www.bikeshopbillings.com/series_info.jpg

If you guys dont mind doing a little driving, There will be a 4 race series in Redlodge MT. Courses make Beacon look like an interstate highway. Big rocks, Drops, a step up or two, and you better be able to hang nasty corners. Dates will be in june july and august. Missing all the big norba races.

I should have info soon, and a website! email me if you want dates or fliers

Later,

Nate

info@bikeshopbillings.com
or
n.schnase@bresnan.net.

[downhillracer]

Really sorry that the WIM series dropped the chelan DH race, that was an awesome race with wide open fast lines, really too bad
but anyways
does anyone have websites or know where i can get info about the NW cup races, the BC cup races, and any other races in the Pacific NW region besides the WIM series?
Thanks for any help

[Hack]

real short practice times for the beacon race's. Lame

[PsychO!1]

real short practice times for the beacon race's. Lame

I beleive they broke up the practices. so there will be fewer racers on the hill at any one time. Should make the shuttle lines much more managable and you'll get more runs in......in theory.

[oly]

Really sorry that the WIM series dropped the chelan DH race, that was an awesome race with wide open fast lines, really too bad
but anyways
does anyone have websites or know where i can get info about the NW cup races, the BC cup races, and any other races in the Pacific NW region besides the WIM series?
Thanks for any help

www.google.com

[oly]

hey mods.... time to unsticky this?? seeing how none of what was talked about ever happened???

[Secret Squirrel]

The practice times were a little wierd at the first Beacon race back in April....but they didn't post that there was going to be an "Open" practice when the expert/pros finished...so that was nice.... Beg/Sport = 12-2 Ex/Pro = 2-4 Everyone = 4-6......hopefully it'll be the same this weekend....I got 4 runs in from 12-2 when starting at 12:45.....so the lines are shorter :) :)

Just checked the website...and realized I forgot to pre-register...son of a.....well that's a $10 lesson that I didn't need...and yeah..the prac times are messed this time.....damn...