M.Moore on FOX!?!?!?!

[Slugman]

Micheal Moore on The O'Reilly Factor!
July 27th, 2004 at 08:00 PM

Put on your protective goggles and watch Micheal face off with Bill O'Reilly at the DNC tonight. This is sure to be some interesting television.

If you miss it at 8, it will be on again at 11:00 p.m.



Wish I had cable... 2 blow hards going at it.
http://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/argue.gif

[Changleen]

I don't get faux news. Someone with a capture card please get this and put it up somewhere.

[ChrisNJ]

I saw it last night. You didnt miss much. Michael Moore is retarded.

[fluff]

I saw it last night. You didnt miss much. Michael Moore is retarded.

Thanks for that detailed, informative review / brainfart

[ChrisNJ]

ok, well, it started off by moore calling bush a liar. Oreilly said that he (bush) did not lie, but was misinformed by u.s intel., mi6, and russian intel (vladimir putin, etc) and he acted on that information. Faithly acting on such info and telling the people of america the reason they are going to war is because of wmd's (which he has no reason to not believe at this point b/c of the intel he was given) is not lying on his part. Moore refuses to agree w/ that and continues to call him a liar b/c he lied to the county, despite what information he acted on :rolleyes: The next big ordeal was at the end, when Moore would not let down the question of "would you sacrifice your son/daughter to fight in iraq/terrorism". Oreilly answered he would sacrifice himself, but Moore kept up the original question and not let it down. What Moore fails to realize is that nobody is sacrificing their sons/daughters. Everyone in our military is a grown adult, capable of making decisions on their own. They decide to join our military and fight for our country. The fact that moore would not let down the "sacrifice your child" bit was childish.

[N8]

...and to think, Lib's view MMoore as one of the more moderate squack-boxes of the Dim's...

[fluff]

...and to think, Lib's view MMoore as one of the more moderate squack-boxes of the Dim's...

Are you a moderate squack-box of the Rets?

[RhinofromWA]

Are you a moderate squack-box of the Ter-Rets?
:D

I didn't see the exchange except for bits on the morning news....

I caught the Iraq/Terrorism exchange and a bunch of "Oh Really!?!?!" blustering from both tools.....

It seemed like it was an adult version of a Pokemon battle. "O'Rielly,..... I choose yoooooooooouuuuuuuuuu! Attack with you Extreme right wing opinion!"

"Moore counter with your "Oh, Really" and evil gaze!"

[Slugman]

ok, well, it started off by moore calling bush a liar. Oreilly said that he (bush) did not lie, but was misinformed by u.s intel., mi6, and russian intel (vladimir putin, etc) and he acted on that information. Faithly acting on such info and telling the people of america the reason they are going to war is because of wmd's (which he has no reason to not believe at this point b/c of the intel he was given) is not lying on his part. Moore refuses to agree w/ that and continues to call him a liar b/c he lied to the county, despite what information he acted on :rolleyes:

Like I said - 2 blow hards going at it... I was really hoping for some sparks. Sounds like std. rhetoric so far.

What Moore fails to realize is that nobody is sacrificing their sons/daughters. Everyone in our military is a grown adult, capable of making decisions on their own.

So the fact that I am over 18 means that I no longer have parents? Sh*t, I got orphaned when i became an adult... at least Christmas will be less expensive this year.

Your child is your child no matter how old...

The fact that moore would not let down the "sacrifice your child" bit was childish.
He can't be childish, he's over 18...

Thanks anyway for the review (albiet slanted...).

Anyone who does not hate MMoore see it? Any other views?

[RhinofromWA]

So the fact that I am over 18 means that I no longer have parents? Sh*t, I got orphaned when i became an adult... at least Christmas will be less expensive this year.

Your child is your child no matter how old...

He was saying that people join the military fully aware that they can be called to fight for our country. The sacrifice is joining...not fighting. Paying the ultimate price is not the sacrifice....it is handing over that choice to your country that is the sacrifice.

So the sacrificing children bit is a little melodramatic....actually a lot melodramatic. It is a non-point force fed to be a point.

You are right, your child is your child no matter what age. That wasn't what he was talking about.

[Slugman]

I was talking about this comment:

What Moore fails to realize is that nobody is sacrificing their sons/daughters.

And making a choice to serve does not negate the fact they are making a sacrifice... and does not mean that their parents doe not lose out if the child is killed.

His statements were just as a little melodramatic....actually a lot melodramatic. It is a non-point force fed to be a point.

Unlike Faux News people, I like my news to reported... not presented.

[El Jefe]

Both Moore and O'Reilly are convinced that they themselves are the smartest people on the planet and that they have some incredible, never before discovered insights on how to straighten out US politics. They're both idiots.

[N8]

Both Moore and O'Reilly are convinced that they themselves are the smartest people on the planet and that they have some incredible, never before discovered insights on how to straighten out US politics. They're both idiots.


True dat!

[RhinofromWA]

And making a choice to serve does not negate the fact they are making a sacrifice... and does not mean that their parents doe not lose out if the child is killed.

When you join the military you accept the risks....you are not unwillingingly sacrificing yourself when you sign up. You are an adult and are fully aware af what lays in front of you.

"Sacrifice" was given a dramatic spin, making it sound like they are pushing kids(soldiers) into a volcano while they are kicking and screaming....when they actually chose to be in the miltary.

So no they are not sacrificing their kids....if anything they are willingly sacrificing themselves.

But go ahead and beleive what you have been force fed.

I guess it depends on you definition of "sacrifice" being used in the MMoore.O'Reilly exchange it was meant to be haneous and negative. When ChrisNJ pointed out they choose to be there....they choose to go and fight. That is not a sacrifice at meant by Moore.

ChrisNJ never mentioned that you divorce your parents or anything so off. He said as an adult they made a choice to join the military to fight for the country. If someone was drafted and sent kicking and screaming that could work but we are talking about a military of people who wanted to be there.

[ChrisNJ]

Thanks Rhino, I'm glad someone understands what i was trying to say.

[DHiDave]

Both Moore and O'Reilly are convinced that they themselves are the smartest people on the planet and that they have some incredible, never before discovered insights on how to straighten out US politics. They're both idiots.


However, Moore is correct on a lot of things. Gee Dub went to war to avenge his father. His dad was the subject of death threats from Sadaam and his regime for over a decade. They don’t stand for that in Texas!!!

When it comes to national or local media how much can you really trust? I believe that Bush uses the intel excuse to justify his own reasons. It's just like him furthering his conservative ideals by not allowing homosexuals to have the same rights as heterosexuals and trying to repeal R vs. W. Think he doesn't have ulterior motives? Bah, we all do. He just has the power to further some of the ones that are far reaching and impact more people. Say what you will about Moore, but at least he doesn't succumb to the mind numbing propaganda that the media and government throw at the public everyday.

Think for yourself, question authority. -- Tool

[Lexx D]

When you join the military you accept the risks....you are not unwillingingly sacrificing yourself when you sign up. You are an adult and are fully aware af what lays in front of you.

"Sacrifice" was given a dramatic spin, making it sound like they are pushing kids(soldiers) into a volcano while they are kicking and screaming....when they actually chose to be in the miltary.

So no they are not sacrificing their kids....if anything they are willingly sacrificing themselves.


What about calling in troops who are no longer active? Or the possibility of a draft? Those don't seem like willing parties to me.

[Slugman]

When you join the military you accept the risks....you are not unwillingingly sacrificing yourself when you sign up. You are an adult and are fully aware af what lays in front of you.

"willing" - that was never mentioned by moore (as reported by ChrisNJ). Weather or not you CHOOSE to be sacraficed... you're still sacraficed. That is the point that I feel is mising.

The Right wing takes Moore's statements and spin it in such a way that it makes it sound like Moore claimed they were pulled from their homes. He never said anything about voluntary or not. His point is that in his (and other's) view, the children of americans were sacraficed for an unjust war.

"Willing" or not - they are still dead.

But go ahead and beleive what you have been force fed. :stosh: That was un called for, I'm no N8... :eek:

[fluff]

Wilfred Owen 1893 - 1917

Parable of the Old Men and the Young

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
And builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son...

[RhinofromWA]

What about calling in troops who are no longer active? Or the possibility of a draft? Those don't seem like willing parties to me.
;)
If someone was drafted and sent kicking and screaming that could work (regarding what we are talking about) but we are talking about a military of people who wanted to be there.
The "no longer active" soldiers kicked off early with the caveat to be recalled if needed. They gambled, they lost. They still need to perform their duties and finish their tour (do they still call it that?)/time.

The draft is a mixed bag or willing and no willing people...though they didn't volunteer for it.

The other guys and gals that got out early though they have a life outside the military originally volunteered to serve.

Nothing to argue with you just thought I would point out I mentioned the draft (breifly) and discuss the recall of troops that left their tour of duty incomplete.

[RhinofromWA]

"willing" - that was never mentioned by moore (as reported by ChrisNJ). Weather or not you CHOOSE to be sacraficed... you're still sacraficed. That is the point that I feel is mising.

The Right wing takes Moore's statements and spin it in such a way that it makes it sound like Moore claimed they were pulled from their homes. He never said anything about voluntary or not. His point is that in his (and other's) view, the children of americans were sacraficed for an unjust war.

"Willing" or not - they are still dead.
Bill said he would send himself...and that wasn't good enough. Moore asked jokingly if anyone could get this man a recruiter...or something. :)

A sacrifice gave willingly by a volunteer military person is different than what Moore was trying to push. He was trying to create a emotional wave he could ride and Bill wasn't grabbing his boogey board. :) Sacrificed willingly is different than forcefully being sacrificed and you had no choice....that simply isn't the case. A soldier losing his life in the service of our country to me is no different than a fire fighter losing his life fighting a fire. They both are volunteer/chosen jobs, and I feel the ones that lose their life in the line of duty should be remembered as brave souls who chose the route many of us won't or can't. To me, saying they are being "sacrificed" lessens their memory to me and removes the respect they are due. They were not forced there, they chose to be there for our country in it's time of need.
:eek: wow where did that come from:think:

The unjust war is a matter to debate....and will be for some time. That does not make his sacrificed comment anymore relavent. Though I can see what angle he was coming from...though using that argument only works with like minded individuals.

I think the fairer question would be "Bill, would you support your childrens choice to volunteer for military service?" or something like that....that removes the baseless sacrificing comment and gives a common ground both of them can talk on. :think: Damn middle ground thinking again....when these two are the last you would expect to see any middle ground reached. :D
:stosh: That was un called for, I'm no N8... :eek:
:eek: sorry :o: ;)

[RhinofromWA]

Wilfred Owen 1893 - 1917

Parable of the Old Men and the Young

So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
And builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son...
Poetry makes my head hurt. :)

Considering when it was written I guess it could have been more painfull. ;)

Do you have poetry readily available? So asketh me. Behold, I of da horn rbingeth you a query. Don where you findeth such pariables?

I think I am having a migraine.

Rhino

[scofflaw23]

Rhino, can you honestly say that every 18 year old kid who joins a branch of the military has a full understanding of what they're doing? I know it's a biased source, but watching interviews with soldiers in Iraq presented in Farenheit 9/11 made me shudder. It seems like many of them barely have an idea of who they're fighting against. I think that tons of young people join the army to pay for college, because of family tradition, or because they are taken advantage of by sneaky recruiters. I would wager that a significant portion of them have no idea of the true sacrifice they could be/are making, and that they are not willing participants, though it seems on the outside that they're are volunteers.

[fluff]

Poetry makes my head hurt. :)

Considering when it was written I guess it could have been more painfull. ;)

Do you have poetry readily available? So asketh me. Behold, I of da horn rbingeth you a query. Don where you findeth such pariables?

I think I am having a migraine.

Rhino

Just trying to bring a little culture to the proceedings.

You could also check out 'Dolce et Decorum' by the same poet. Wilfred Owen was an officer in the British army in WWI, and witnessed the carnage in a war fought over the ego's of Europe's monarchs. He was killed about two weeks before the armistice was signed.

Or check out the film Regeneration.

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino, can you honestly say that every 18 year old kid who joins a branch of the military has a full understanding of what they're doing? I know it's a biased source, but watching interviews with soldiers in Iraq presented in Farenheit 9/11 made me shudder. It seems like many of them barely have an idea of who they're fighting against. I think that tons of young people join the army to pay for college, because of family tradition, or because they are taken advantage of by sneaky recruiters. I would wager that a significant portion of them have no idea of the true sacrifice they could be/are making, and that they are not willing participants, though it seems on the outside that they're are volunteers.
Please, they are clueless? :think: No way. That is what I would say if I joined the military with no intention of fighting.....just to sponge off the military $.

People join for all sorts of reasons. They weigh the possible costs and decide to commit.

Every 18yo (special/challenged people aside) can make that choice.

You don't go into the military to get your college paid. If you do, that doesn't make you unable to make the choice. You don't need a recruiter to tell you what lies ahead.....or could lie ahead.

What possible other reasons would one be tricked into joining the military?
College paid? Hmmm they are just going to pay for school and I just have to dress funny for 4yrs? Umm no.
See the world? Come on.
Family tradition? If their family has done it and it is tradition....you damn well know they are aware what they are getting into.

Recruiters are supposed to ....ah, recruit. They get people all jazzed about the military...they are not there to hold their hand and talk them out of it. Do they lie? I don't know...do they talk it up? Yes...most definately. Sneaky recruiters? What, do they offer them a lolli-pop if they sign a peice of paper? *evil laugh* we tricked you into giving up your soul for 4yrs */evil laugh*

I say well before 18yo people can make that choice. What is this fascination that people think an 18yo can not make a choice about joining the military?

Yes they know what lies ahead....maybe they have sugarcoated the reality in their heads to some degree, but that doesn't mean they didn't chose to serve. Just because a soldier gets scared and wants out doesn't mean he/she didn't know what they were getting into....it means they are human and freaked out.

[RhinofromWA]

Just trying to bring a little culture to the proceedings. Well, stop it! *slapping Fluff's hand* ;)

[fluff]

Well, stop it! *slapping Fluff's hand* ;)

I hope you're not implying that culture infers homosexuality.. :devil:

[RhinofromWA]

I hope you're not implying that culture infers homosexuality.. :devil:
hahaha *with a lithsp* notht at awl *stopping lithsp*

[Archslater]

[QUOTE=I say well before 18yo people can make that choice. What is this fascination that people think an 18yo can not make a choice about joining the military?

Yes they know what lies ahead....maybe they have sugarcoated the reality in their heads to some degree, but that doesn't mean they didn't chose to serve. Just because a soldier gets scared and wants out doesn't mean he/she didn't know what they were getting into....it means they are human and freaked out.[/QUOTE]


True, nobody is "forced" into joining the military, but much of the recruiting is focused on lower class, poverty stricken people, who do not appear to have a lot of options upon high school graduation. The recruiters spin joining the military as a way out, and a great opportunity. Its safe to say that wealthier classes have many more options. I think this is what Moore was getting at in Farenheit 911.

[IronDonkey]

When you join the military you accept the risks....you are not unwillingingly sacrificing yourself when you sign up. You are an adult and are fully aware af what lays in front of you.

"Sacrifice" was given a dramatic spin, making it sound like they are pushing kids(soldiers) into a volcano while they are kicking and screaming....when they actually chose to be in the miltary.

So no they are not sacrificing their kids....if anything they are willingly sacrificing themselves.

But go ahead and beleive what you have been force fed.

I guess it depends on you definition of "sacrifice" being used in the MMoore.O'Reilly exchange it was meant to be haneous and negative. When ChrisNJ pointed out they choose to be there....they choose to go and fight. That is not a sacrifice at meant by Moore.

ChrisNJ never mentioned that you divorce your parents or anything so off. He said as an adult they made a choice to join the military to fight for the country. If someone was drafted and sent kicking and screaming that could work but we are talking about a military of people who wanted to be there.

So Rhino,

You seem to think you have a pretty good understanding of the mindset of a young person who goes out and enlists in the millitary during peace times.

Tell us then, how many years did you serve in the armed forces? How did you come to terms with the personal "sacrifice" YOU were making for your country?

If your experience was anything like MINE, then your adolescent 18yo brain didn't even contemplate the possibility of going to war. As my highschool counselors and navy recruiters emphasized, joining the millitary was a way to make good money, travel the world, meet new people, and pay for an otherwise ellusive college education. The possibility of WAR was never brought up in pre-enlistment conversation and probably the farthest thing from my naive, video-game trained, thought process.

Despite what your prescribed common sense might tell you, most teens dont have the abstract capacity to truly understand the net results their actions today have on tomorrow.

Its disgusting to hear somebody on the outside looking in throw around terms like "sacrifice" as it relates to giving ones life, or taking the life of another in a meaningless political war.

[RhinofromWA]

True, nobody is "forced" into joining the military, but much of the recruiting is focused on lower class, poverty stricken people, who do not appear to have a lot of options upon high school graduation. The recruiters spin joining the military as a way out, and a great opportunity. Its safe to say that wealthier classes have many more options. I think this is what Moore was getting at in Farenheit 911.
I agree it is a option for them who might not have many other options....

Guess what, it was an option they chose. Poverty has nothing to do with the ability to decide to join the military. The military does offer some great benefits for those who would not have access to things like college education, leaving their poverty ridden areas with a chance to start fresh. Those are bonuses, to the simple fact you are signing on to be in the miltary and go where and when they tell you.

Do people fully fathom the horrors of war? Not always. It is there job to go and do what they are told. They are soldiers.

To many the military is a better road to travel....more so during peace time. Now that they are called upon to truely serve they are now unwilling idiots? No they are opportunistic idiots...that are now unwilling to serve.

[IronDonkey]

I agree it is a option for them who might not have many other options....

Guess what, it was an option they chose. Poverty has nothing to do with the ability to decide to join the military. The military does offer some great benefits for those who would not have access to things like college education, leaving their poverty ridden areas with a chance to start fresh. Those are bonuses, to the simple fact you are signing on to be in the miltary and go where and when they tell you.

Do people fully fathom the horrors of war? Not always. It is there job to go and do what they are told. They are soldiers.

To many the military is a better road to travel....more so during peace time. Now that they are called upon to truely serve they are now unwilling idiots? No they are opportunistic idiots...that are now unwilling to serve.


How truly insightful! Of course, you are speaking from personal experience right?

[RhinofromWA]

So Rhino,

You seem to think you have a pretty good understanding of the mindset of a young person who goes out and enlists in the millitary during peace times.

Tell us then, how many years did you serve in the armed forces? How did you come to terms with the personal "sacrifice" YOU were making for your country?
I spent 2 months hashing over what I wanted to do in my senior year in school. There were plenty of recruiters there ready to help direct me to the military. I had them come to my house....I met them at their office.

I chose not to go. I did have a choice (I had better options than others)....so did you.
If your experience was anything like MINE, then your adolescent 18yo brain didn't even contemplate the possibility of going to war. As my highschool counselors and navy recruiters emphasized, joining the millitary was a way to make good money, travel the world, meet new people, and pay for an otherwise ellusive college education. The possibility of WAR was never brought up in pre-enlistment conversation and probably the farthest thing from my naive, video-game trained, thought process.

Despite what your prescribed common sense might tell you, most teens dont have the abstract capacity to truly understand the net results their actions today have on tomorrow.
You had no idea what the military was about? You thought it was some 4yr Club Med trip? Come on now, you jest?

It is not in the recruiters job to beat into you the possibility of going to war. Where is your personal responsibility for your own actions? I am sure on some papers you signed there was mention of actually serving.

It is not the job of the military to march people in circles for 4 yrs and then turn them loose.
Its disgusting to hear somebody on the outside looking in throw around terms like "sacrifice" as it relates to giving ones life, or taking the life of another in a meaningless political war.
I have plenty of friends in HS that did go in to the military, other friends in college that were in ROTC. Don't, for one second, think this subject was never discussed.

I know it is popular to protect people and say they are not responsible for their own actions....but really now. How else did you consult other than the recruiter when making your decision? The recruiter is not going to stear you away....don't blame them. Take some responsibility for what you chose, be it good or bad for you....you chose it.

[fluff]

Rhino, it just may be that the recruiters paint a less than full picture...

[RhinofromWA]

How truly insightful! Of course, you are speaking from personal experience right?
Do my childhood friends count? Some of my firends did go that route for lack of better options.....I am still in contact with 2, one drove a tank and went to the gulf war. The other was a mechanic on the A-10(i think) actually he was office support I hope he didn't work on them ;) You should have seen his car in HS. The tank guy didn't like the military style so he is now out....the other after serving an extended first tour, he is now rejoined.

Because I did not join and you did makes my opinion mute over yours? Nice. I guess you learned something in the military..........

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino, it just may be that the recruiters paint a less than full picture...
It isn't their job to paint a full picture. :(

I understand and agree the recruiters are there to sign people up....it is their job.

[Slugman]

True, nobody is "forced" into joining the military, but much of the recruiting is focused on lower class, poverty stricken people, who do not appear to have a lot of options upon high school graduation. The recruiters spin joining the military as a way out, and a great opportunity. Its safe to say that wealthier classes have many more options. I think this is what Moore was getting at in Farenheit 911.

Worker's Song (Handful of Earth) - Dropkick Murphys
written by Ed Pickford

This one's for the workers who toil night and day
By hand and by brain, to earn your pay
For centuries long past for no more than your bread
Have bled for your countries and counted your dead
In the factories and mills, in the shipyards and mines
We've often been told to keep up with the times
For our skills are not needed, they've streamlined the job
And with slide rule and stopwatch, our pride they have robbed

(chorus)
We're the first ones to starve, we're the first ones to die
The first ones in line for that pie in the sky
And we're always the last when the cream is shared out
For the worker is working when the fat cat's about

And when the sky darkens and the prospect is war
Who's given the gun and then pushed to the fore
And expected to die for the land of our birth
Though we've never owned one lousy handful of earth

And all of these things the worker has done
From tilling the fields to carrying the gun
We've been yoked to the plow since time first began
And always expected to carry the can.

[IronDonkey]

Rhino wrote:....don't blame them. Take some responsibility for what you chose, be it good or bad for you....you chose it.


I'm not BLAMING anyone! I'm merely suggesting you think twice before throwing around words that mean a lot more to a lot of people than perhaps you realize.

I'm truly insulted when somebody who has never served talks about the sacrifices our young pre 9/11 troops have made, not for our country, but for our lying, plutocratic political machine.

Rhino wrote:.... Because I did not join and you did makes my opinion mute over yours? Nice. I guess you learned something in the military..........

No, you can have your opinion. But, at the end of the day, if you've never tasted something, how can you explain to somebody else what it's like?

[RhinofromWA]

I'm not BLAMING anyone! I'm merely suggesting you think twice before throwing around words that mean a lot more to a lot of people than perhaps you realize.

I'm truly insulted when somebody who has never served talks about the sacrifices our young pre 9/11 troops have made, not for our country, but for our lying, plutocratic political machine.

If you've never tasted something, how can you explain to somebody else what it's like?
I have never slid down a slide of razor blades into a pool of rubbing alcohal.....

but I think I will pass.

I have not served personally....but I am not without resources (my father Army Vietnam drafted, Tank buddy Gulf Storm, Airforce buddy I am not clear where or when he was anyware, ROTC airforce buddy, fly's fighter planes)

Rest well tonight that I have thought (more than) twice about it. Troops pre 9/11 were simply in waite for an event like that....that is what the military does. It is prepared to be used when called. In a time of war or not.

Rhino

[IronDonkey]

Rhino wrote:....I have never slid down a slide of razor blades into a pool of rubbing alcohal.....but I think I will pass......

Please don't insult the intelligence of anyone who might read this thread with that lame, 'apples to oranges' rebuttle!


Rhino wrote:....Troops pre 9/11 were simply in waite for an event like that....

YOU JUST DONT GET IT MAN, And unfortunately, You probably never will.

[valve bouncer]

I know it is popular to protect people and say they are not responsible for their own actions....but really now. How else did you consult other than the recruiter when making your decision? The recruiter is not going to stear you away....don't blame them. Take some responsibility for what you chose, be it good or bad for you....you chose it.
It's true Rhino, but some people don't have the options you had perhaps. Life is all about options, some people have more than others. How many people from Harvard go into the military at the grunt level. A lot of people think there's nothing left me for me, the military offers something for me and in the majority of cases it's a net gain but when you're lying on the sand in Iraq with the life bleeding out of you, I wonder how many said "well such is life, this was my choice". Yeah, it's a chice but it's a heeluva one for a lot of people. Especially now........

I read a spread in a paper a while back that had pictures, a name, hometown, age, rank and how they died, of every American who'd been killed (to that point) in Iraq. I read every single one. Terribly, terribly poignant, and I remember meeting guys like that in my journeys, these young Americans, credits to their country, trying to to do the right thing, but being duped by these horrible politicians in Washington who are lying to them and who are telling them they are doing a great thing. It's never "Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori".......

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino wrote:....I have never slid down a slide of razor blades into a pool of rubbing alcohal.....but I think I will pass......

Please don't insult the intelligence of anyone who might read this thread with that lame, 'apples to oranges' rebuttle!

YOU JUST DONT GET IT MAN, And unfortunately, You probably never will.
Fact is I don't need to get shot by a rifle to know it is going to hurt something fierce! It was more like 'apples to catalitic converters' thank you. That does not negate the trueth behind it....it doesn't take first hand knowledge to figure things out all the time. I guess you would go down the slide...wouldn't you?

I am sorry you are closeminded enough to refuse anyone could have a clue about the military unless they jumped right in there.

Consider this, since you have been in the military, YOU haven't a clue if you could have an idea what it was like being in the military without actually joining? How dare you question ME?! You can't possibly know what it is like to be me...not joining the military....becuase you did. Strange place we put ourselves in? :think: If you can know/have an idea of where I am coming from....than I can of you. I did not grow up in a bubble...I have had plenty of stories from my father and his buddies along with my friends.

It is commen sense....the military exists to function in service of the country. To fight it's wars and defend it.

PS- ID, I didn't mean to drop the bolded addition above my never understanding part of your post. It was added later....after I selected it to respond to.

[valve bouncer]

Rhino wrote:....I have never slid down a slide of razor blades into a pool of rubbing alcohal.....but I think I will pass......

Please don't insult the intelligence of anyone who might read this thread with that lame, 'apples to oranges' rebuttle!


Rhino wrote:....Troops pre 9/11 were simply in waite for an event like that....

YOU JUST DONT GET IT MAN, And unfortunately, You probably never will.
Mate, I appreciate your sentiments and mostly agree with you, but I see you gettin' your dander up against Rhino. Rhino posts a lot on this forum and I almost never agree with what he has to says but he's a good bloke and he almost always says what he has to say in a good spirit and with a smile. I think you should rebut in the same spirit mate. :)
If ya wanna go for the jugular try N8, he's the slut of the forum. ;)

[RhinofromWA]

It's true Rhino, but some people don't have the options you had perhaps. Life is all about options, some people have more than others. How many people from Harvard go into the military at the grunt level. A lot of people think there's nothing left me for me, the military offers something for me and in the majority of cases it's a net gain but when you're lying on the sand in Iraq with the life bleeding out of you, I wonder how many said "well such is life, this was my choice". Yeah, it's a chice but it's a heeluva one for a lot of people. Especially now........

I read a spread in a paper a while back that had pictures, a name, hometown, age, rank and how they died, of every American who'd been killed (to that point) in Iraq. I read every single one. Terribly, terribly poignant, and I remember meeting guys like that in my journeys, these young Americans, credits to their country, trying to to do the right thing, but being duped by these horrible politicians in Washington who are lying to them and who are telling them they are doing a great thing. It's never "Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori".......
No one wants to die...

But you make a choice to join a group that had every possibility to put you were the life may be bleeding out of you. If you are not ready to serve your country in that manner the military is not your best option.

Their honor comes from serving the country. The politicians and the mistakes they make should not tarnish that. The wars that the soldiers fight are another discussion all together from this.

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino wrote:....Troops pre 9/11 were simply in waite for an event like that....

YOU JUST DONT GET IT MAN, And unfortunately, You probably never will.
In that context, I think the part you are angry about is you didn't accept that is what a military is for...pre-war times.

Going into the military during peace times should carry with it, the same reservations as if you were to do it during times of war. Correct? You can't select the #2 Military Service Combo with no war time service please.... it is a part of joining the military. If you weren't willing to serve when needed you should not have joined....you or anyone else.

I am afraid I do get it, make little in the ways of acceptance of ignorance of people joining the military, and that is something you are finding difficult to accept. That is cool. I would still share a beer with you....if you felt so inclined.

Rhino

[valve bouncer]

Their honor comes from serving the country. The politicians and the mistakes they make should not tarnish that. The wars that the soldiers fight are another discussion all together from this.
I think you can't seperate it mate. Why are WW2 soldiers so venerated and Vietnam and following fighters not so? They weren't any less brave. It's politics which is war by other means.

[RhinofromWA]

I think you can't seperate it mate. Why are WW2 soldiers so venerated and Vietnam and following fighters not so? They weren't any less brave. It's politics which is war by other means.
That is not the soldiers fault. It is the people who didn't fights fault for the treatment they received. The people who opposed the were war blaming the war on the people sent to fight it not the ones who decided the military should go in.

I see no difference between WW2 and 'Nam vets (and other wars)....but that is just me. That is a real shame. The soldiers don't make policy they just vow to enforce it.

The blame focused on troops there doing their job, should have gone directly to the decision makers. Serving in the military, willing to give your life in service, deserves more than screaming and pointing a finger at them when they arrive home.

[valve bouncer]

That is not the soldiers fault. It is the people who didn't fights fault for the treatment they received. The people who opposed the were war blaming the war on the people sent to fight it not the ones who decided the military should go in.

I see no difference between WW2 and 'Nam vets (and other wars)....but that is just me. That is a real shame. The soldiers don't make policy they just vow to enforce it.

The blame focused on troops there doing their job, should have gone directly to the decision makers. Serving in the military, willing to give your life in service, deserves more than screaming and pointing a finger at them when they arrive home.
Rhino I agree with you on that, but what I'm saying is that you can't seperate the war from the politics, they are one and the same thing.

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino I agree with you on that, but what I'm saying is that you can't seperate the war from the politics, they are one and the same thing.
I was trying to separate the soldier from the war/politics :confused: I must have been unclear. :(

Blaming the soldier serving his country for a war you don't beleive in is wrong. The blame should be directed at the war itself and the people in control over it.

[IronDonkey]

Rhino wrote:....In that context, I think the part you are angry about is you didn't accept that is what a military is for...pre-war times....

No, I'm not angry about my own service. It was a cake walk. I served aboard the USS Boston, a fast attack submarine stationed out of Groton, CT. I made enough money to lease a fast car, hooked up with enough women throughout the east coast, mediterranean and japan to give wilt chamberlin a run for his money, and basically got a free ride through college afterwards.

I'm angry for the kids that came after me. Who, like me were never properly advised of all the possible outcomes of signing the dotted line. Kid's who were scammed into buying the salesmanship of their bottom feeding recruiters. Kid's who were never advised that they needed to be emotionally ready to give and take human life before making such a commitment.

But mostly I'm pissed off that my buddy Dave hasn't left his house in the 6 months he's been home b/c he cant phucking live with himself after being part of a team that was ultimately responsible for the killing of literally thousands of people they had never met.

Ultimately it is each persons decision to serve. But I definately think as a community we should require our millitary to truly INFORM each and every applicant. Otherwise we are SCAMMING people out of their LIFE! Even if they DO survive the war!

[IronDonkey]

Rhino wrote:...I would still share a beer with you....if you felt so inclined.

Rhino

Right on man, If you ever make it over to Keystone/Vail area, I'll buy ya a pint of fat tire.....as long as you dont bring up politics! LOL

[N8]

Maybe we need two militarys; one for peace time garrison duty and the other for actual combat...?

:confused:

[RhinofromWA]

ID,

:D Man you have that bold feature down. now this one is cool too....

[quote=RhinofromWA] followed by the "/"quote box thingy. :)

Or Highlight the text and click that little thought bubble icon when posting....

;)

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino wrote:....In that context, I think the part you are angry about is you didn't accept that is what a military is for...pre-war times....
No, I'm not angry about my own service. It was a cake walk. I served aboard the USS Boston, a fast attack submarine stationed out of Groton, CT. I made enough money to lease a fast car, hooked up with enough women throughout the east coast, mediterranean and japan to give wilt chamberlin a run for his money, and basically got a free ride through college afterwards.
You slut! :eek: :D

I am glad your service went smoothly.
I'm angry for the kids that came after me. Who, like me were never properly advised of all the possible outcomes of signing the dotted line. Kid's who were scammed into buying the salesmanship of their bottom feeding recruiters. Kid's who were never advised that they needed to be emotionally ready to give and take human life before making such a commitment.
I just don't understand... What does everyone think the military is for? A venue solely for an education?
But mostly I'm pissed off that my buddy Dave hasn't left his house in the 6 months he's been home b/c he cant phucking live with himself after being part of a team that was ultimately responsible for the killing of literally thousands of people they had never met.
That sucks. Why did he join the military? :confused: It is normal to not be happy with what goes down during a war. I don't hold him responsible, and I hope other civilians don't rag on him for serving. I hope that he soon forgives himself for carrying out orders given by someone else.
Ultimately it is each persons decision to serve. But I definately think as a community we should require our millitary to truly INFORM each and every applicant. Otherwise we are SCAMMING people out of their LIFE! Even if they DO survive the war!
What part of joining the military (and not Peace Corps) is hard to understand? How dillusioned are we as a society to think war is clean or war is fair? We aren't fighting nameless faceless figures...though the military would like you to train to respond that way.

[IronDonkey]

ID,

:D Man you have that bold feature down. now this one is cool too....

[quote=RhinofromWA] followed by the "/"quote box thingy. :)

Or Highlight the text and click that little thought bubble icon when posting....

;)

Yeah, but that's what people would expect me to do! I like things to be as difficult as possible....

:help:

[IronDonkey]

I am glad your service went smoothly.
thanks
I just don't understand... What does everyone think the military is for? A venue solely for an education?
In short, YES

That sucks. Why did he join the military? :confused: It is normal to not be happy with what goes down during a war. I don't hold him responsible, and I hope other civilians don't rag on him for serving. I hope that he soon forgives himself for carrying out orders given by someone else.
I don't think I really wanna talk about my buddy anymore. I probably shouldn't have brought him up in the first place. Too personal...

What part of joining the military (and not Peace Corps) is hard to understand? How dillusioned are we as a society to think war is clean or war is fair? We aren't fighting nameless faceless figures...though the military would like you to train to respond that way.

I think you answered your own question, in the last part of your statement...
"We aren't fighting nameless faceless figures...though the military would like you to train to respond that way" BINGO!

[RhinofromWA]

:thumb: Yeah for the quote feature! :D
In short, YES
*shakes head*....I would tend to be angry at those people.
I don't think I really wanna talk about my buddy anymore. I probably shouldn't have brought him up in the first place. Too personal... I understand. I will not bring it up agian.
I think you answered your own question, in the last part of your statement...
"We aren't fighting nameless faceless figures...though the military would like you to train to respond that way" BINGO!
Which brings back the nievety of the people these days. Military is used to kill people. Not just pay for an education, but they will if you join them, to kill people There is no other reason for the military to be....they kill people. They don't carry french ticklers and koosh balls.

Now who has not a clue what the military is before signing up?


Rhino

[Slugman]

Yeah, but that's what people would expect me to do! I like things to be as difficult as possible....

:help:
So you joined the military to express you individuality... :nono: :p

:D

[drift1492]

If someone can vote for the leaders of our country, they can make their own decision on whether or not to join the military. Ignorance should not be an excuse, nor mis-information. They should use their brain to shift through the BS, just like we all have to do when we vote.

[special O]

Just thought I would add my own 2 cents. My best friend and roommate of 2 years joined the army reserves and left a month ago to go to basic training. He is doing it for one reason. To pay for college. Because of a combination of things he no longer receives the financial aid he had that allowed him to attend college for 2 years. My parents both had good paying jobs and began saving for my brother and I to go to college before we were even born. Unfortunately he is not in the same situation. He receives almost no financial support from his parents and barely had enough money to eat and pay rent and have a little left over for beer. He joined the army because when he gets back the army will pay for him to continue to go to school. He looked hard for other options but this was the only way he felt he could continue attending college.

I feel he is different from a majority of people who join the army. His stepdad (who he calls his dad) was in the army and served in desert storm. He grew up on army bases. He knew what he was getting into and I discussed with him at length the risks he was taking. He is putting his hopes on going back to school when he is done with basic and bush losing office and this IRAQ thing being settled before he graduates. In his first letter to me he wrote: "... we havn't done any real army training yet. It's mostly been classroom stuff, breifings and lectures about Army rules and regulations. Its amazing to me how many kids here had no idea what they were getting into. They didn't even know about the special laws and penalties that apply to people in the military." To me that says that the military recruiters aren't giving the full picture to the people they are signing up. I doubt the recruiters are asking them if they feel they are ready to sift through the bodies of dead regular people much like themselves in some far off country.

I bet alot of the kids we have in the military today didn't have a much better option. They are told/view the military as a way out of working at burking king when they are 32. The military glamorizes service and (in my opinion) tricks many of them into signing up. I think the point that Michael Moore is trying to make to people like O'Reilly (when I watch TV its bike racing, adult swim, or comedy central, I avoid the news/political crap) who support Bush and his government is: If your son or daughter was over there in Iraq, would you be so gung ho about bush's actions... Are the troops there really serving OUR COUNTRY, as they were led to believe....

special O

[Silver]

Which brings back the nievety of the people these days. Military is used to kill people. Not just pay for an education, but they will if you join them, to kill people There is no other reason for the military to be....they kill people. They don't carry french ticklers and koosh balls.

Now who has not a clue what the military is before signing up?


Rhino

I think it would be different if we were killing people for a reason.

Instead we have about 20 different reasons, none compelling enough on their own, so they keep shifting and are continuously being put into different combinations so the general public doesn't feel bad about "collateral damage."

[ALEXIS_DH]

Just thought I would add my own 2 cents. My best friend and roommate of 2 years joined the army reserves and left a month ago to go to basic training. He is doing it for one reason. To pay for college. Because of a combination of things he no longer receives the financial aid he had that allowed him to attend college for 2 years. My parents both had good paying jobs and began saving for my brother and I to go to college before we were even born. Unfortunately he is not in the same situation. He receives almost no financial support from his parents and barely had enough money to eat and pay rent and have a little left over for beer. He joined the army because when he gets back the army will pay for him to continue to go to school. He looked hard for other options but this was the only way he felt he could continue attending college.

I feel he is different from a majority of people who join the army. His stepdad (who he calls his dad) was in the army and served in desert storm. He grew up on army bases. He knew what he was getting into and I discussed with him at length the risks he was taking. He is putting his hopes on going back to school when he is done with basic and bush losing office and this IRAQ thing being settled before he graduates. In his first letter to me he wrote: "... we havn't done any real army training yet. It's mostly been classroom stuff, breifings and lectures about Army rules and regulations. Its amazing to me how many kids here had no idea what they were getting into. They didn't even know about the special laws and penalties that apply to people in the military." To me that says that the military recruiters aren't giving the full picture to the people they are signing up. I doubt the recruiters are asking them if they feel they are ready to sift through the bodies of dead regular people much like themselves in some far off country.

I bet alot of the kids we have in the military today didn't have a much better option. They are told/view the military as a way out of working at burking king when they are 32. The military glamorizes service and (in my opinion) tricks many of them into signing up. I think the point that Michael Moore is trying to make to people like O'Reilly (when I watch TV its bike racing, adult swim, or comedy central, I avoid the news/political crap) who support Bush and his government is: If your son or daughter was over there in Iraq, would you be so gung ho about bush's actions... Are the troops there really serving OUR COUNTRY, as they were led to believe....

special O


yeah, spot on. where is toshi, he once corrected me on most people not being in the army for the reasons this guy just said.

and yeah, i share donkeys opinion on this. BUT i dont think is completely matter of those who lure kids into the war machine only. they are the contractor, the buyer, and paying for college, and other ammenities are just part of making their offer in an open market.

is also responsability of those who mortgage their lifes, thus i dont feel as sorry for them as i´ve read somebody did.
it is their fault to commit to others will, even if the others make a bad decision, because that was a chance they decided to take in the first place.

they know they will have to kill babies or bomb a family, or slit an enemy guard throat if asked to waaaaaaay before hand. thus i dont feel sorry for people who make that choice. is like a privateer and a pirate. both are morally the same, even if one has a gvmt license.

noiw, its a different thing in what side are you. of course in my book a WWII allied fighter is way on top in the heroic scale. and WWII nazi soldier it way down the bottom. because the first fights truly for his country and for defense, and 2nd is a despicable mercenary that got in the attacking army for money or glory or false convitions or whatever, withouh regard of its army reasons to go to war.

and that is where i disagree with rhino, i think war fighters and politicians should NOT be separated, because the ultimate voice of reason in a human should his morals, and NOT some boss will.

i understand they go thinking they will obbey good orders, BUT that is just being very "innocent". and they should pay the price for putting others will on top of their own priciples.

and i think there is no merit on obedience, if it means subjugating their principles and morals on killing innocents. like non defensive soldier armies do.

[IronDonkey]

If someone can vote for the leaders of our country, they can make their own decision on whether or not to join the military. Ignorance should not be an excuse, nor mis-information. They should use their brain to shift through the BS, just like we all have to do when we vote.

ah yes, "18", that pivotal age when a young man can go out and help decide who leads this great nation. A time when a young man, (or woman) can choose to fight and die bravely for our country. A time when one can finally sit down at a restaraunt and order a cool refreshing beer. Oh wait, scratch that last one from the list. "Sorry young man, we trust your ability to make responsible decisions SO MUCH<sarcasm> that we are going to let you decide who to vote for, and we'll also let you volunteer for the millitary, and all that entails, but we just dont think youre ready to decide whether or not you are ready to consume an alcoholic beverage." Sorry, thanks for playing american politics & socialogical hurdles 101. I'm sure you'll find our back asswards ways make sense uhm......never! In the meantime just vote republican. We'll make sure to give your generous middle class tax contributions to haliburton, Nron and various struggling texas oil companies. God Bless.... :eviltongu