Hastert Lectures McCain on War, Sacrifice

[N8]

Hastert Lectures McCain on War, Sacrifice
By MARY DALRYMPLE, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Growing tensions between House and Senate Republicans over the war in Iraq (news - web sites), abuse of Iraqi prisoners, tax cuts and budget deficits erupted Wednesday with House Speaker Dennis Hastert lecturing former POW and Arizona Sen. John McCain about sacrifice and war.

McCain, who spent five years in a North Vietnamese prison, excoriated fellow Republicans on Tuesday for pushing more tax cuts while U.S. troops are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan (news - web sites).

"Throughout our history, wartime has been a time of sacrifice. ... What have we sacrificed?" McCain said. "As mind-boggling as expanding Medicare has been, nothing tops my confusion for cutting taxes during wartime. I don't remember ever in the history of warfare when we cut taxes."

Asked Wednesday about McCain's remarks, Hastert, who was rejected for military service because of a bad shoulder, first joked: "Who? Where's he from? A Republican?"

Then, more seriously, he said: "If you want to see sacrifice, John McCain ought to visit our young men and women at Walter Reed and Bethesda (two Washington area military hospitals). There's the sacrifice in this country. We're trying to make sure that they have the ability to fight this war, that they have the wherewithal to be able to do it. And at the same time, we have to react to keep this country strong not only militarily but economically. We want to be able to have the flexibility to do it. That's my reply to John McCain."

McCain stood fast in his reply to Hastert.

"The speaker is correct in that nothing we are called upon to do comes close to matching the heroism of our troops," he said. "All we're called upon to do is not spend our nation into bankruptcy while our soldiers risk their lives. I fondly remember a time when real Republicans stood for fiscal responsibility."

The conflict erupted as Hastert laid down a budget making it easier to pass future tax cuts regardless of their impact on the federal deficit. McCain and a group of GOP moderates in the Senate want to rein in deficits by making tax cuts harder.

Later, Hastert spokesman John Feehery said the speaker "values Sen. McCain's military service, but he disagrees with him on tax relief."

[Serial Midget]

I think very highly of John McCain - Hastert doesn't mean anything to me at all. He can lecture all he wants but that is not going to give him the credibility McCain has earned over his many years in public office.

Sort of like you N8 - you can blow all the partisan bullsh-it you want - but so what, you lost your credibility a long time ago. Now you are simply a Copy McPastie, the only monkeys who take you seriously now are the ones that already shared your viewpoint.

[golgiaparatus]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
I think very highly of John McCain - Hastert doesn't mean anything to me at all.

Word

[edit: to ya motha]

[N8]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
[B]Sort of like you N8 - you can blow all the partisan bullsh-it you want - but so what, you lost your credibility a long time ago. Now you are simply a Copy McPastie, the only monkeys who take you seriously now are the ones that already shared your viewpoint.[B]


Well, coming from you, the pinnacle of profound pomposity, I'll take it as a compliment.

Thanks!

:)

[Jr_Bullit]

"I fondly remember a time when real Republicans stood for fiscal responsibility."

:thumb:


Oh and SM - dead on mate :)

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by Serial Midget


Sort of like you N8 - you can blow all the partisan bullsh-it you want - but so what, you lost your credibility a long time ago. Now you are simply a Copy McPastie, the only monkeys who take you seriously now are the ones that already shared your viewpoint.
Wow........f*cken owned......SM- the angry old midget.;) :D

[Silver]

"Then, more seriously, he said: "If you want to see sacrifice, John McCain ought to visit our young men and women at Walter Reed and Bethesda (two Washington area military hospitals). There's the sacrifice in this country. We're trying to make sure that they have the ability to fight this war, that they have the wherewithal to be able to do it. And at the same time, we have to react to keep this country strong not only militarily but economically. We want to be able to have the flexibility to do it. That's my reply to John McCain."

Nice way to not answer the question and also question the patriotism of a man who spent a bunch of years in an NVA prison camp while you complained of sore knees due to your college wrestling career. (Grapling with spry young men...hmmm...sounds like something one of the godless faggots would enjoy, doesn't it?)

I don't agree with McCain on a lot of things, but I'd be proud to have him as President...he's a guy I would trust to not lie straight to my face (like Clinton, but I'm willing to cut him slack over the blowjob after seeing what Bush has done) or be willfully ignorant if not intentionally malevolent (Bush).

[brenth]

Anybody see McCain on the daily show a week or two ago? He rocks! I honestly don't know much about his positions on issues, But to me he seams like a politican that if we had more like him, we wouldn't be in alot of ****ty situations we are today. ( and no I'm not talking about the war or anything else specificlly, I'm talking about the partisan bull**** on both sides of the debate, instead of what is good for everyone).

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by brenth
Anybody see McCain on the daily show a week or two ago? yeah, i think he still hasn't found those charts. He's been a rotating fixture since the 00 runup. I'm pretty sure i like him, but i'm not sure he would have been more gracious than bush during this war. That, my friend, would have been a serious iraqi body count; but to his credit, it'd just be the UN & halliburton in there now.

[Serial Midget]

I would have faith in McCain to level with the public and tell it like it is without twisting the truth to meet his own agenda. It would be nice to have a bit of honesty in our leaders. We know Bush II, Clinton, Bush the Elder and Ronald Reagon all lied, spoke in half truths and mislead the public they were elected to serve. Screw them all. :monkey:


Originally posted by brenth
Anybody see McCain on the daily show a week or two ago? He rocks! I honestly don't know much about his positions on issues, But to me he seams like a politican that if we had more like him, we wouldn't be in alot of ****ty situations we are today. ( and no I'm not talking about the war or anything else specificlly, I'm talking about the partisan bull**** on both sides of the debate, instead of what is good for everyone).

[Slugman]

Originally posted by stoney98
MCCain should have run anyways, he would have won. I'd vote for him anyday, he IS the man we need to lead the country, not some hick or daddy's boy. He's about the people he serves, not his or special interests.
:stupid: I would have voted for McCain over anyone else in the last election.

However his dedication to the republican party (i.e. not seeking an indepedant backing and run agains GW and Bore) made me lose a little respect for him. I beleive that if a 3rd party were ever to be viable it would take a man like McCain to represent it... and it was probably the best shot that we will see for a long time.

[N8]

careful what you wish for...

[Secret Squirrel]

Note the time stamp...

:spam:

[jimmydean]

McCain was a POW? Wow, I had no idea.

[ohio]

careful what you wish for...

I wish we could find the McCain that went MIA sometime between 2000 and 2004.

[JohnE]

He is a maverick too...bet you dint know that...

[jimmydean]

He is a maverick too...bet you dint know that...

http://www.maverickcometclub.org/pics/john_maltinsky_72_maverick.jpg

Awesome.

[stevew]

I wish we could find the McCain that went MIA sometime between 2000 and 2004.
But he would still be to old.

[N8]

I wish we could find the McCain that went MIA sometime between 2000 and 2004.


he's the same liberal jackass he was then.. the only diff is now democrats have to collectively fluff obama

[jimmydean]

But he would still be to old.

http://blog.kir.com/archives/images/mccain.jpg

[Defenestrated]

The only thing McCain can do well is fly planes into the ground.

[jimmydean]

The only thing McCain can do well is fly planes into the ground.

He was still on the deck in one of his crashes. It takes a special kind of pilot to blow up a plane while still on deck. But at least he didn't get captured that time.

[N8]

The only thing McCain can do well is fly planes into the ground.

He was still on the deck in one of his crashes. It takes a special kind of pilot to blow up a plane while still on deck. But at least he didn't get captured that time.

just luv luv luv to piss on ur parade wid teh factz!

mccain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them, both due to engine failure.

a third was destroyed on the deck of the carrier USS Forrestal when a missile fired accidentally from another plane hit either the plane next to McCain's or, less likely, his own aircraft, triggering a disastrous fire that killed 134 sailors and nearly killed McCain.

fourth plane was lost when he was shot down over North Vietnam on a bombing mission over Hanoi.

none of the four destroyed planes were lost to pilot error.

[Defenestrated]

just luv luv luv to piss on ur parade wid teh factz!

mccain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them, both due to engine failure.

a third was destroyed on the deck of the carrier USS Forrestal when a missile fired accidentally from another plane hit either the plane next to McCain's or, less likely, his own aircraft, triggering a disastrous fire that killed 134 sailors and nearly killed McCain.

fourth plane was lost when he was shot down over North Vietnam on a bombing mission over Hanoi.

none of the four destroyed planes were lost to pilot error.

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.

[N8]

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.

pwnt! (http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_mccain_crash_five_planes_did_he.html)

[Defenestrated]

dayum! so mccain isn't a terrible pilot, he just has the worst luck of any human being.

[kidwoo]

They call stalling 'engine failure' now?

[Defenestrated]

He admitted to "Daredevil Clowning", whatever that is...

[Samirol]

Hell, even on Carrier, when a pilot had problems getting fueled midair and had to make an emergency landing at an airport, he got sidelined for a couple months.

[X3pilot]

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

Happens more than gets reported, they trainers for a reason.

McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

As referenced to 1998, happens more than it should. 2 P3 Orion aircraft have been lost due soley to showboating

McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

Flying military aircraft to events happens constantly. By every branch. Ever watch a football game, World Series or other sporting event with the flyovers?

McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

Not really his fault he lost that one. Lots of aircraft were lost that day and the missle wasn't on his aircraft

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.

This one made him a POW in case you hadn;t heard about him being a POW. sarcasm on


My reference to Naval aviation comes from 24 years in it. Kinda know a lot of the dirty secrets.

[X3pilot]

They call stalling 'engine failure' now?

Stalling leads to engine failure if there is not enough time to conduct the emergency procedures to effect a re-lightoff.

[ohio]

My reference to Naval aviation comes from 24 years in it. Kinda know a lot of the dirty secrets.

Do you know lots of guys whose careers contain 5 or more destroyed aircraft? How would you describe them in terms of character and intelligence?

No one is claiming he's the only ****up with wings, nor that it's surprising that a fighter pilot would demonstrate reckless, idiotic, thrill-seeking tendencies. I think folks are just pointing out that he was a ****up and a reckless, thrill-seeking idiot. Are you saying that the fact that it's common makes it okay?

[ohio]

Stalling leads to engine failure if there is not enough time to conduct the emergency procedures to effect a re-lightoff.

And what causes a stall?

[X3pilot]

Do you know lots of guys whose careers contain 5 or more destroyed aircraft? How would you describe them in terms of character and intelligence?

Straight answer, no. I flew and have over 4000 hours, never had one destroyed.

2 of those cannot be attributed to his 'character and intelligence'

Stupid flying, flat hatting, showboating, skylarking, whatever is not an acceptable excuse for losing a taxpayer asset.

What this says about character is for you, as a taxpayer that bought that airplane, to decide.

[X3pilot]

And what causes a stall?

Rhetorical question or is a lesson in aerodynamics and theories of jet propulsion in order?

[$tinkle]

Stalling leads to engine failure if there is not enough time to conduct the emergency procedures to effect a re-lightoff.can't you just goose the gas & pop the clutch?

[Defenestrated]

Isn't the bottom line the fact that someone was flying too slow? :brow:

[syadasti]

Do you know lots of guys whose careers contain 5 or more destroyed aircraft? How would you describe them in terms of character and intelligence

I got an email this morning from my uncle who has taught at the naval academy in Annapolis (he's a life-long pilot licensed to teach sailing, glider, and power flight) about the RS McCain article:

I have not had a chance to read this yet. But I wanted to write and tell you that the academy graduate (early 80's ?) 20 year+ marine former F-18 pilot that works in my office read the article and said that no one he knows that personally knows McCain would vote for him. And the very conservative former air force lifer also a pilot and also attended the naval academy (older guy there was no Airforce Academy when he went to school) very much dislikes McCain.

[X3pilot]

Technically, if the aircraft is flying too slow, it will enter a stall condition and essentially begin to fall out of the sky.

When a turbojet/turboprop/turboshaft engine stalls, the incoming air that forms a wall between the compressor section and the turbine collapses, allowing propulsion gases to rush forward through the combustion section, effectively "blowing out the candle". This could be caused by several factors and without reading or seeing the actual resultant engineering investigation that always follows any Naval Aviation mishap, there is really no way of knowing for sure, but some factors could be slow airspeed; reducing the air intake, unusual angle of attack; disturbing the airflow into the intake section of the engine, a poor performing engine (lacking in formulated performance ranges)or mechanical failure of various components.

I had one engine one time 'fail' due to catastrophic compressor failure. It simply 'came from together' in maintenance terms.



or are you fvcking with me?

[X3pilot]

I got an email this morning from my uncle who has taught at the naval academy in Annapolis (he's a life-long pilot licensed to teach sailing, glider, and power flight) about the RS McCain article:

Understand, I'm not trying to defend McCain himself, I agree with your uncle's email. I'm defending what I perceive to be the start of an assumption about Naval Aviators in general.

Maybe I'm taking this the wrong way or too personally.

Aviation is an inherently dangerous occupation, bad things happen to good pilots. Air mishaps aren't necessarily a benchmark to judge someone's character or ability to be President.

I know, "Shhhh, let the adults talk..."

[BurlyShirley]

Understand, I'm not trying to defend McCain himself, I agree with your uncle's email. I'm defending what I perceive to be the start of an assumption about Naval Aviators in general.


Just more "swiftboating."

There are a lot of good guys who never get out of flight school.

[X3pilot]

Just more "swiftboating."

There are a lot of good guys who never get out of flight school.

Am I swiftboating or the uncle's email?

[syadasti]

Am I swiftboating or the uncle's email?

I think he meant the posters in the thread saying he would be a bad leader simply because he was a bad pilot. There is a lot more to the story than that...

[Straya]

Well the swiftboating has gone international

mccains-flying-skills-shot-down-by-inquiry (http://www.smh.com.au/news/us-election/mccains-flying-skills-shot-down-by-inquiry/2008/10/06/1223145262104.html)


Didn't he need a new ultralight at some point too?

[jimmydean]

I think he would be a bad leader for a variety of reasons. But I also find it funny that he destroyed 4x the number of planes in a short flight career than a majority of naval pilots destroy in a lifetime.

[N8]

Straight answer, no. I flew and have over 4000 hours, never had one destroyed.

to be fair, i'd venture to suggest that the 40-early 60's vintage a aircraft maccain had incidents with can not be compared to the mechanical and maintenance reliability of US Naval aircraft of the 80's-today.

not really an good apples to apples comparison really, imo

[syadasti]

to be fair, i'd venture to suggest that the 40-early 60's vintage a aircraft maccain had incidents with can not be compared to the mechanical and maintenance reliability of US Naval aircraft of the 80's-today.

not really an good apples to apples comparison really, imo

Yeah we got some pretty crappy aircraft then...like the B52. Only going to run them until 2040+ :huh:

Its not uncommon for aircraft that age to still be running today even significantly cheaper civilian models. Must be the Stone Age design and poor maintenance - that's it!

[X3pilot]

to be fair, i'd venture to suggest that the 40-early 60's vintage a aircraft maccain had incidents with can not be compared to the mechanical and maintenance reliability of US Naval aircraft of the 80's-today.

not really an good apples to apples comparison really, imo

I flew on the P3 Orion. Based on Lockheed's Electra L-188. Most aircraft were pre-1980 production. Several I flew on had been accepted by the Navy within 2 years of me being born.

[N8]

Yeah we got some pretty crappy aircraft then...like the B52. Only going to run them until 2040+ :huh:

k, ur talkin our ur ass...

teh B-52 model still flying is the B-52H built between 1961-1963. the H model spent the majority of it's like on standby alert loaded with tatical weapons. The hours on the airframe is quite low and as a SAC aircraft it was very well maintained and inspected.


quite different than the carrier operated combat aircraft mccain was flying.

[syadasti]

Its an outlier. Just noting that there are plenty of decent airplanes from that time and they've been maintained well enough to be in service until this day. From private to commercial to defense.

Regardless its not one crash but many. You can't get "lucky" that many times.

[ohio]

Straight answer, no. I flew and have over 4000 hours, never had one destroyed.

2 of those cannot be attributed to his 'character and intelligence'

Stupid flying, flat hatting, showboating, skylarking, whatever is not an acceptable excuse for losing a taxpayer asset.

What this says about character is for you, as a taxpayer that bought that airplane, to decide.

I agree that 2 of them were beyond his control. But I have a hard time imagining that crashing 3 aircraft in non-combat situations is a normal stat for military pilots even over a career. My stall question was somewhat rhetorical as I would assume that in a non-combat situation the only way to achieve too high an angle of attack would be flying as you describe above.

On the one hand, I know that being an aggressive risk-taker is a positive attribute in a fighter pilot, AND we all did stupid **** when we were young that we grew out of. On the other, this record seems pretty extreme, and there is a difference between a calculated risk-taker and a rash one - I would expect the difference in record to be in-combat crashes vs non-combat.

I don't think this record is central to McCain's ability to govern, but I do think it is one piece of the puzzle and I'm unwilling to accept BS explanations that his record is perfectly normal.

[ohio]

quite different than the carrier operated combat aircraft mccain was flying.

One crash was in combat; one was a freak accident.

The other three were:
- On carrier, practicing in 1958 - non-combat, and being in Corpus Christi I would assume there was plenty of time to spend maintaining the aircraft to be used for practice.
- On carrier (?), practice flight - non-combat, and being in Spain, nowhere near combat. Again, plenty of time and resources to be maintaining these planes.
- Off carrier, trainer aircraft - by definition non-combat, and I would assume trainers are kept in meticulous mechanical condition. Maybe he was evading some geese.

Again, I don't think this is that critical to his political capabilities, but don't try to bull**** me and tell me McCain wasn't a ****up of a pilot and that these crashes were perfectly normal and beyond his control.

[jimmydean]

Again, I don't think this is that critical to his political capabilities, but don't try to bull**** me and tell me McCain wasn't a ****up of a pilot and that these crashes were perfectly normal and beyond his control.

Dude, he was 7th in his graduating class!

Oh wait, he was 7 from the bottom, not the top. Sorry.

[N8]

Again, I don't think this is that critical to his political capabilities, but don't try to bull**** me and tell me McCain wasn't a ****up of a pilot and that these crashes were perfectly normal and beyond his control.

meh, ok.

intuitve self-preservation logic would dictate that a pilot would avoid crashing his aircraft if possible.

for me, i find obama's ACORN ties far more telling of his political capabilities than if maybe mccain crashed his own planes.

[Silver]

Dude, he was 7th in his graduating class!

Oh wait, he was 7 from the bottom, not the top. Sorry.

That's not really McCain's fault. He thought the leaderboard worked like it does in golf...

[ohio]

intuitve self-preservation logic would dictate that a pilot would avoid crashing his aircraft if possible.

Did you not live through your teens? Did you just spontaneously appear one day in a puddle of alien goo as your current flaccid, metro, over-the-right-wing-hill self?

In that case, perhaps you have at some point *met* some boyz in their late teens and early 20s?

http://www.blacklambs.com/Images/John%20Belushi.jpg
http://ccn1.net/POTD4/running-bulls/pamploma-10.jpg
(I think it's hilarious that page 1 of a google image search for "stupid frat boy" turns up ALL shots of GWB)
http://imgs.sfgate.com/n/pictures/2008/05/29/airforce3.jpg

[N8]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/mtbnate/jerkit.gif