attention voting catholics

[$tinkle]

The bishop of Colorado's second-largest Roman Catholic diocese has issued a pastoral letter saying Catholics cannot receive Communion if they vote for politicians who support abortion rights, stem-cell research, euthanasia or gay marriage.

denver bishop speaks out (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~64~2147524,00.html)sounds like a ringing endorsement for bush to me.

not being catholic, raised catholic, or seriously studying catholicism, i can't tell if he's overstepped his bounds, or actually doing what they should have been doing all along.

anyone?

[Westy]

Vote for whomever then confess your sin, wouldn't everything be peachy then??

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by $tinkle
sounds like a ringing endorsement for bush to me.

not being catholic, raised catholic, or seriously studying catholicism, i can't tell if he's overstepped his bounds, or actually doing what they should have been doing all along.

anyone?
I don't have a problem with them doing that, but it doesn't seem unilateral. If they don't list something, does that mean they're cool with it... like war?

[Slugman]

That is absolutley within the doctrin of the church... never think for yourself or question anything - do as you are told!!!

The roman catholic church is pure evil... I know, I was raised RC!

A lot of what they do goes against scripture.

[Westy]

Originally posted by Slugman
That is absolutley within the doctrin of the church... never think for yourself or question anything - do as you are told!!!

The roman catholic church is pure evil... I know, I was raised RC!

A lot of what they do goes against scripture.

History wise isn't the Catholic church the remains of the Roman Empire?

[$tinkle]

this quote pissed me off the most:Sheridan singles out politicians who support abortion rights, stem-cell research and euthanasia, saying those candidates "ipso facto place themselves outside full communion with the Church and so jeopardize their salvation."'scuze me, who is the judge of my salvation?

[Westy]

Originally posted by $tinkle
this quote pissed me off the most:'scuze me, who is the judge of my salvation?

The salvation army?

[Slugman]

Originally posted by $tinkle
this quote pissed me off the most:'scuze me, who is the judge of my salvation?

Like I said - RC church goes against the scripture they preach from...

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Originally posted by Westy
History wise isn't the Catholic church the remains of the Roman Empire?

Not quite, but not quite wrong either.

So yes and no :p

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by $tinkle
'scuze me, who is the judge of my salvation?
Maddox?

[Tweek]

Sounds like a doctrine imposed by a somewhat renegade bishop. Unless it comes down from the Pope, I ain't buyin' it.
And I'll say this again for the billionth time: what the RC church teaches does not go against scripture. However, there are zealots (like this bishop) who like to take things into their own hands and abuse the power they've been given. But hey, that happens in all religions, doesn't it?

[Slugman]

Unless the pope comes out against what this guy said, it will be seen as an endorsment.

The Pope will not do this b/c he recently gave a huge speach on how it is a moral obligation to keep a person "alive" regardless of thier physical condition. In other words, you can't allow someone to die in peace, you MUST try and keep them alive as long a spossible, even if they are brain dead...

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Slugman
That is absolutley within the doctrin of the church... never think for yourself or question anything - do as you are told!!!

A lot of what they do goes against scripture.

I try to withold my judgement of other Christian faiths in check. I have though been studying the some of the doctrines of the RC Chruch, and it has raised alot of questions for me.

From what I have learned (now mind you I have not sat down with a preist or a bishop and discussed this) I do see things in their practices that are contrary to the Scripture or are based on very flimsy evidence in the Scripture.

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by $tinkle


"ipso facto place themselves outside full communion with the Church and so jeopardize their salvation."

..............who is the judge of my salvation?

This is one of the doctrines I struggle with regarding the RC Church, at least from a Scriptural point of view.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
I have though been studying the some of the doctrines of the RC Chruch, and it has raised alot of questions for me.yeah, like, who does the pope confess to?

[Mackie]

Stuff like this is why I'm a sedevacantist.
Actually, I think I have to be a Catholic to be a sedevacantist. Anyone want to start a sedevacantist-agnostic group with me?

Either way, the bishop still thinks I'm going to hell.:devil:


At least I'll be in good company.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Tweek]

Originally posted by Slugman
Unless the pope comes out against what this guy said, it will be seen as an endorsment.

Perhaps only an endorsement within his diocese. Give it some time.

The Pope will not do this b/c he recently gave a huge speach on how it is a moral obligation to keep a person "alive" regardless of thier physical condition. In other words, you can't allow someone to die in peace, you MUST try and keep them alive as long a spossible, even if they are brain dead...
I find that very hard to believe.
In the Pope's encyclical, Evangelium Vitae (1995), he states:

"In such situations, when death is clearly imminent and inevitable, one can in conscience refuse forms of treatment that would only secure a precarious and burdensome prolongation of life, so long as the normal care due to the sick person in similar cases is not interrupted"

What huge speech?

[Tweek]

Originally posted by $tinkle
yeah, like, who does the pope confess to?
The Pope is a priest, and just like any other, any priest can hear his confession.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Tweek

In the Pope's encyclical, Evangelium Vitae (1995), he states:"In such situations, when death is clearly imminent and inevitable, one can in conscience refuse forms of treatment that would only secure a precarious and burdensome prolongation of life, so long as the normal care due to the sick person in similar cases is not interrupted"
i wonder if terri schiavo is catholic.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Tweek
The Pope is a priest, and just like any other, any priest can hear his confession. yet scripture teaches us to "confess to one another your sins" - james 5:16. Is this the basis for confession? if so, why a priest & not another believer?

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by $tinkle
yet scripture teaches us to "confess to one another your sins" - james 5:16. Is this the basis for confession? if so, why a priest & not another believer?

According to the Scriptures every follower of Jesus is a Preist / Minister.

[Slugman]

Originally posted by Tweek
What huge speech?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/04/16/pope_decries_euthanasia_hospitals_to_honor_living_ wills/
“In a talk March 20, Pope John Paul II said that feeding and hydrating such patients is "morally obligatory" -- and that withdrawing feeding tubes constitutes "euthanasia by omission." Since then, American bishops, theologians, and ethicists have been studying the issue closely to see what the pope's words will mean for hospital operations in the United States.”

http://www.catholicweb.com/media_index.cfm?fuseaction=view_article&partnerid=23&article_id=1463
“The Pope insisted that patients who are terminally ill should not be deprived of food and water-- even when these must be provided by artificial means. Nutrition and hydration, he said, are "natural means of preserving life, not medical procedures." He continued: "Therefore, their use must be considered ordinary and appropriate, and therefore morally obligatory.’"

[Slugman]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
According to the Scriptures every follower of Jesus is a Preist / Minister.

Not in the RC church...

[Tweek]

Originally posted by $tinkle
yet scripture teaches us to "confess to one another your sins" - james 5:16. Is this the basis for confession? if so, why a priest & not another believer?
That's one of the points of schism b/w Catholics and Protestants -- 'who alone but God can forgive sins?'
Referring to the forgiveness of sins, in Matthew's gospel, Jesus tells Peter (the 1st Pope): "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Slugman
Not in the RC church...

why do i get the feeling you dont know what you're talking about?

[Tweek]

Originally posted by Slugman
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/04/16/pope_decries_euthanasia_hospitals_to_honor_living_ wills/
“In a talk March 20, Pope John Paul II said that feeding and hydrating such patients is "morally obligatory" -- and that withdrawing feeding tubes constitutes "euthanasia by omission." Since then, American bishops, theologians, and ethicists have been studying the issue closely to see what the pope's words will mean for hospital operations in the United States.”

http://www.catholicweb.com/media_index.cfm?fuseaction=view_article&partnerid=23&article_id=1463
“The Pope insisted that patients who are terminally ill should not be deprived of food and water-- even when these must be provided by artificial means. Nutrition and hydration, he said, are "natural means of preserving life, not medical procedures." He continued: "Therefore, their use must be considered ordinary and appropriate, and therefore morally obligatory.’"
Yes, I believe the encyclical I mentioned is referenced in that address too. He speaks of denying the human body it's BASIC needs for nutrition. Your post made it sound like the life must be sustained at any cost with massive amounts of life-support equipment. It all comes down to the Catholic Church's stance on the integrity and preservation of human life.

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Slugman
Not in the RC church...

Regardless of what the Church says the Scriptures are crystal clear when they say (in both the Old Testament and the New Testament) that every followers of Jesus (note: not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a follower of Jesus) is a preist / minister (depending on the translation you use).

As a follower of Jesus, I'm less concerned with what people say is "the truth" and more concerned with finding that truth myself in the Text.

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Tweek
That's one of the points of schism b/w Catholics and Protestants -- 'who alone but God can forgive sins?'
Referring to the forgiveness of sins, in Matthew's gospel, Jesus tells Peter (the 1st Pope): "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Chapter and verse please from that passage in Matthew. I would suspect that is taken out of context..........I think.

[Slugman]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
why do i get the feeling you dont know what you're talking about?

I don't know... b/c you're too close minded to accept that someone has a different opinion?

I only speak about my opinion based on personal experience. You've had a different one, but that does not mean that my perception of how things have happened in my life are wrong - you just have a different opinion.

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Slugman
I don't know... b/c you're too close minded to accept that someone has a different opinion?

I only speak about my opinion based on personal experience. You've had a different one, but that does not mean that my perception of how things have happened in my life are wrong - you just have a different opinion.

I dont even have an opinion on this. It just seems like you're bashing something you dont understand. I may be wrong, but its just an observation.

[Tweek]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
Chapter and verse please from that passage in Matthew. I would suspect that is taken out of context..........I think.
How very Catholic of me to not inlcude Chap and Verse. :D

Matt. 16:19

[Slugman]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I dont even have an opinion on this. It just seems like you're bashing something you dont understand. I may be wrong, but its just an observation.

Raised roman catholic... been there, done that: hated it.

Free thought was not encouraged... I left.

Although I am glad I went to the church I did go to, Father Geoghan was at another church in my town!!!

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Slugman

Free thought was not encouraged... I left.


How very non-New Testament of them.

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Tweek
How very Catholic of me to not inlcude Chap and Verse. :D



I got a chuckle out of that.

The RC interpretation of that verse is very how shall I say "Hellenistic" and not from the Jewish point of view which it was intended and how it was authored.

Jesus being a Rabbi with Authority (S'mikah), along with being the Messiah, was in this Text preparing Peter for the time when he and the other disciples would become Rabbi's (in a sense) and teach others about this whole Jesus movement. This would culminate with Jesus giving them S'mikah ("all authority has been given to you......."). In 1st century Jewish Rabbinic tradition, you could only get S'mikah from someone who had S'mikah, thus Jesus gives it to the disciples before He leaves.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
I got a chuckle out of that.

The RC interpretation of that verse is very how shall I say "Hellenistic" and not from the Jewish point of view which it was intended and how it was authored.

Jesus being a Rabbi with Authority (S'mikah), along with being the Messiah, was in this Text preparing Peter for the time when he and the other disciples would become Rabbi's (in a sense) and teach others about this whole Jesus movement. This would culminate with Jesus giving them S'mikah ("all authority has been given to you......."). In 1st century Jewish Rabbinic tradition, you could only get S'mikah from someone who had S'mikah, thus Jesus gives it to the disciples before He leaves. i think that was elaine's problem: too much s'mikah appeal

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by $tinkle
i think that was elaine's problem: too much s'mikah appeal

LOL...........the Rabbi in the episode cracks me up................:D

[Tweek]

Oh, S'mikahman... it's the S'mikahman. :p

Anyway, nothing wrong with that. I don't see how it invalidates Catholic teaching, if that was your point, what with Judaism forming the base of Christianity. Personally, I look at it as the point where Christ established/re-established the priesthood.

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Tweek
Oh, S'mikahman... it's the S'mikahman. :p

Anyway, nothing wrong with that. I don't see how it invalidates Catholic teaching, if that was your point, what with Judaism forming the base of Christianity. Personally, I look at it as the point where Christ established/re-established the priesthood.

My point was (which I think I missed) was that Peter was not given authority to forgive sins in that Text, he was given authority to go teach.

We modern westerners tend to think "linearly" and very "Greek", but the problem is the Scriptures were written by Jews with an eastern way of thinking (for the most part) to Jews (for the most part). So when we hear "the Kingdom of God" we in our Greek western mind think "Oh he's referring to heaven". Nope, the Jewish idea of the Kingdom of God (remember Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi) is something that is in the here and now in addition to another realm we call heaven. We read "Eternal life" in the Text and think "Oh that's when I get to heaven". Nope, eternity is now and starts the second you become a follower of Jesus.

Also, there is no mention of the term "Pope" in the Scriptures. I'm sure that was passed down with the Sacred Tradition (which I also struggle with doctrinally). Just as there is no mention of Mary being a perpetual virgin as the Tradition asserts (which I wholeheartedly disagree with).

Personally I have found through my studies that most modern Christianity (Protestants, Catholics, etc.) have hugely deviated from what the 1st century church was (which I beleive is probably our most accurate model of what a New Testament community of believers should be). Through the centuries there has been way too much Hellenistic influence on a faith that was essentially Judiasm + Jesus. Many of the Christian (BTW the word Christian according to the Text is a noun not an adjective) holidays we celebrate are in fact pagan holidays incorporated into the church by Constantine or whoever.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I don't have a problem with them doing that, but it doesn't seem unilateral. If they don't list something, does that mean they're cool with it... like war? ...or capital punishment.

i have a close catholic friend (8 kids - surprise!) who sez there are 6 criteria for war.

waiting for that list...

[Jr_Bullit]

I thought this was appropos:

Today...in History!

May 14 964
Pope John XII dies of injuries inflicted eight days prior by a jealous husband who caught him in flagrante delicto with his wife. The 26-year-old pontiff had received a blow to the temple, causing immediate paralysis. Critics had accused John of converting the Lateran Palace into a whorehouse.


Okay...well not appropriate, and probably not on subject, but I found it amusing.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I thought this was appropos:

Today...in History!

May 14 964
Pope John XII dies of injuries inflicted eight days prior by a jealous husband who caught him in flagrante delicto with his wife. The 26-year-old pontiff had received a blow to the temple, causing immediate paralysis. Critics had accused John of converting the Lateran Palace into a whorehouse.


Okay...well not appropriate, and probably not on subject, but I found it amusing. i think it was 24 yrs ago yesterday the current pope was shot by a turkish dude.

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by $tinkle
i think it was 24 yrs ago yesterday the current pope was shot by a turkish dude.

More weird historical thingies to do with popes and monks and stuff :) This week in Catholic history (well three days at least)

May 14 1610

Fanatical monk François Ravaillac jumps aboard the coach of King Henry IV and stabs him twice through the open window. Then the French monarch bleeds to death before medical help can reach him.

May 13 1917

Three small children in Fatima, Portugal receive the first of six visitations from the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God. Over the next five months she lays some pretty heavy **** on the kids, including a three-part secret: a vision of Hell, a prophecy of war with godless Russia, and a third secret which remains classified until Y2K.

May 13 1981

A delusional Turk guns down Pope John Paul II in St. Peter's Square. Mehmet Ali Agca believes that the Vatican is an abomination before God and must be destroyed. 19 years later, the Church will disclose that the assassination attempt was foretold in 1917, as part of the third secret of Fatima.

May 12 1982

During a procession outside the shrine of the Virgin Mary in Fatima, Portugal, security guards overpower Juan Fernandez Krohn before he can attack Pope John Paul II with a bayonet. Krohn, an ultraconservative Spanish priest opposed to the Vatican II reforms, decided that the Pope must be killed for being an "agent of Moscow."

[$tinkle]

from the catechism:

"The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military fore require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision make it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective there must be serious prospects of success the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.These are the traditions elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace."

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Tweek
Oh, S'mikahman... it's the S'mikahman. :p
out-friggin'-standing :D Well played! :thumb:

Cheat Commandos... Rock, Rock On!

[Slugman]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I thought this was appropos:

Today...in History!

May 14 964
Pope John XII dies of injuries inflicted eight days prior by a jealous husband who caught him in flagrante delicto with his wife. The 26-year-old pontiff had received a blow to the temple, causing immediate paralysis. Critics had accused John of converting the Lateran Palace into a whorehouse.


Okay...well not appropriate, and probably not on subject, but I found it amusing.

Where did you find these? I gotta check that out!

[Silver]

Seems to me it's time to start taxing the Denver diocese....

[$tinkle]

after talking with a few friends this wknd (some catholic, some not), it seems these things are true:
- the bishops "juristiction" is based upon a political boundary, so he has voice on all things political & catholic
- those who claim to be catholic are in effect submitting to the leadership of the church, and therefore shall follow his edicts.

yeah, organized religion at its finest.