The Experiment ... reforming our prison system

[LordOpie]

Just saw this movie and holy ****!

The movie is based on the infamous "Stanford Prison Experiment" conducted in 1971. A makeshift prison is set up in a research lab, complete with cells, bars and surveillance cameras. For two weeks 20 male participants are hired to play prisoners and guards. The 'prisoners' are locked up and have to follow seemingly mild rules, and the 'guards' are told simply to retain order without using physical violence. Everybody is free to quit at any time, thereby forfeiting payment. In the beginning the mood between both groups is insecure and rather emphatic. But soon quarrels arise and the wardens employ ever more drastic sanctions to confirm their authority.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0250258/

http://www.prisonexp.org ... i read that site and wow.

[valve bouncer]

I thought this thread was gonna be about prison sex.....oooohhhh well:( ;) :D

[fluff]

Hey Loops,

Have you seen these:

Sparky (http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm)


Wavey (http://www.vaniercollege.qc.ca/Auxiliary/Psychology/Frank/Thirdwave.html)

[$tinkle]

here's an oldie but goodie for VB: http://www.spr.org

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by fluff
Hey Loops,

Have you seen these:

Sparky (http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm)


Wavey (http://www.vaniercollege.qc.ca/Auxiliary/Psychology/Frank/Thirdwave.html)
yes

no... reading it now.

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by $tinkle
here's an oldie but goodie for VB: http://www.spr.org
According to you right wingers, prison is like a country club, isn't it?:rolleyes:

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
According to you right wingers, prison is like a country club, isn't it?:rolleyes:

It is better than death isn't it?

What perks should they be intitled to?

I didn't read the links so this is most likely off topic. Prison shouldn't be a country club....but you "lefties" feel they should be pampered while they are there. (how is that for matching your rash generalization? :rolleyes: too)

Food, Shelter, run them around the yard everyday, give basic health care, and treat them with respect (if they treat you with respect.)

If not.......Da Man comes down on ya.

Problem is when Da Man doesn't treat a human being with respect...abusing his power. OR, the inmate doesn't wish to play by the rules.

Cable TV
Internet access
lollypops
snocones
butlers
espresso

are things that shouldn't be part of a prisoners rights......:)

Prison isn't/shouldn't be livable. They should make small rocks out of big rocks....eat....sleep.....and repeat.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
According to you right wingers, prison is like a country club, isn't it?:rolleyes: i think there's less risk getting buggered in a CC.

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by $tinkle
i think there's less risk getting buggered in a CC.

I guess that would depend on what kind of CC it is.....:D

[golgiaparatus]

Studied this a little in a college psych class. Pretty wacked out how viscious the guards became.

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
It is better than death isn't it?

What perks should they be intitled to?

I didn't read the links so this is most likely off topic. Prison shouldn't be a country club....

Food, Shelter, run them around the yard everyday, give basic health care, and treat them with respect (if they treat you with respect.)



Prison isn't/shouldn't be livable. They should make small rocks out of big rocks....eat....sleep.....and repeat.
So just how does your regime help prisoners reform (which should be the basis of any prison system). In your world when prisoners are released they're just thrown back into the world from whence they came with no skills except the criminal ones they learnt in prison. And you wonder why there are so many recidivists.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: You have no answer as usual Rhino other than hang 'em high.
If as much money was spent on reforming prisoners as was spent on punishment maybe the US wouldn't have prison statistics that would make dictators blush.

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
So just how does your regime help prisoners reform (which should be the basis of any prison system). In your world when prisoners are released they're just thrown back into the world from whence they came with no skills except the criminal ones they learnt in prison. And you wonder why there are so many recidivists.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: You have no answer as usual Rhino other than hang 'em high.
If as much money was spent on reforming prisoners as was spent on punishment maybe the US wouldn't have prison statistics that would make dictators blush. wow, a relevant and insightful post by VB! I agree, we should spend more resources on reform.

[N8]

Originally posted by LordOpie
wow, a relevant and insightful post by VB! I agree, we should spend more resources on reform.

We should encourage our criminals to migrate to Canada... They have a PLUSH prison system there.

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by N8
We should encourage our criminals to migrate to Canada... They have a PLUSH prison system there.
We should send all our criminals to an Island :devil:

[911]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
So just how does your regime help prisoners reform (which should be the basis of any prison system). In your world when prisoners are released they're just thrown back into the world from whence they came with no skills except the criminal ones they learnt in prison. And you wonder why there are so many recidivists.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: You have no answer as usual Rhino other than hang 'em high.
If as much money was spent on reforming prisoners as was spent on punishment maybe the US wouldn't have prison statistics that would make dictators blush.

I couldn't agree more... the primary objective of any correctional facility should be to correct whatever it is inside a person that leads them to a life of crime. This is certainly not to say prison should be a country club but... "They should make small rocks out of big rocks....eat....sleep.....and repeat"... are you serious?! What could this possibly accomplish?

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by 911
"They should make small rocks out of big rocks....eat....sleep.....and repeat"... are you serious?! What could this possibly accomplish?

Oh, i dunno, punishment for murderers and rapists maybe?

Why should prisoners get things even lower class free people cant? ie. colege education, great healthcare, cable TV, internet access....crap like that.
Sure, reform them, make prison a place so unbearable they'd never ever want to go back. (if only people worked like that).

How exactly do you reform a person anyhow?


There is no right answer here.

[Skookum]

Regardless of how plush some may percieve the prison system to be, it denies the person freedom. You lose freedom you lose dignity and the prisoner gains a reliance on the system. Institutionalization is quite real.

It's set up for failure when a "portion" of the corrections system is not being established for reform. Many prisoners who may have been open for rehabilitation is instead being returned to society without any proper social skills except for an expanded criminal thinking process.

If it's set up for failure only the industry of law and corrections look to benefit, but at the expense of victims and taxpayers.

Not to say that this should be a broad stroke and all criminals will take to reform. Not saying that it is realistic to see, or expect that hardened criminals would take to it. But there are many in the prison system who can be reached. So even a small percentage is an ideal that even staunch punish hungry hardliners should gravitate towards. Criminals who are going to be released back into society are going to be released. Want em back with a basic vocational education, some drug and alcohol rehabilitation, or do you want em back angry, hopeless, and trained only in anti-social behavior. And ask yourself before you say well we'll just send em back to the slammer if they didn't learn, for it might be at the expense of someone you know being the victim.

Criminals forsake their right to entitlement of rights certainly, but society is owed the opportunity to prevent crime not only thru punishment, but with reform as well.

[Silver]

Reform isn't happening anytime soon.

Prisons are big business. Incidentally, that's one of the reasons why we keep shoving people in them for smoking a joint.

And then, when they come out with a criminal record and can't get a job, they turn to crime and we can get them with a three strikes law.

It's win-win!

[Evel Monkey]

Originally posted by Silver
Reform isn't happening anytime soon.

Prisons are big business. Incidentally, that's one of the reasons why we keep shoving people in them for smoking a joint.

And then, when they come out with a criminal record and can't get a job, they turn to crime and we can get them with a three strikes law.

It's win-win!

I'll agree.

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Evel Monkey
I'll agree.

There's a surprise:rolleyes: :D

Listen guys, not everything in the world is a conspiracy. Someone will profit no matter what the situation.

[Evel Monkey]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
There's a surprise:rolleyes: :D

Why you little @!X%%$%!@!!!!!! :D

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Silver
Reform isn't happening anytime soon.

Prisons are big business. Incidentally, that's one of the reasons why we keep shoving people in them for smoking a joint.

And then, when they come out with a criminal record and can't get a job, they turn to crime and we can get them with a three strikes law.

It's win-win! so, the criminals are the real victims?

how very tired i have grown of this indefensible position.

go on, then.

[Evel Monkey]

Not about reforming prison systems, but still a good read.

You Got Nothing Coming : Notes From a Prison Fish (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767909194/103-0850133-1633460?v=glance)

[laura]

Originally posted by $tinkle
so, the criminals are the real victims?

how very tired i have grown of this indefensible position.

go on, then.


i dont think he is saying that the criminals are the victims. we are all the victims. locking someone up for 5-10 for smoking or selling weed is only going to put them back out in public as a person who has been removed from society for 10 years, cant find a job, more often than not, doesnt have a place to stay, and goes straight back to selling drugs just to get back on his feet.


we have got to stop looking at things in an us vs. them view. having disconected, homeless, jobless criminals out on the street effects me just as much as it effects them or you and throwing them back in jail doesnt solve anything for our problems or theirs.

it is a vicious cycle that the entire society suffers from.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by laura
i dont think he is saying that the criminals are the victims. we are all the victims. locking someone up for 5-10 for smoking or selling weed is only going to put them back out in public as a person who has been removed from society for 10 years, cant find a job, more often than not, doesnt have a place to stay, and goes straight back to selling drugs just to get back on his feet.


we have got to stop looking at things in an us vs. them view. having disconected, homeless, jobless criminals out on the street effects me just as much as it effects them or you and throwing them back in jail doesnt solve anything for our problems or theirs.

it is a vicious cycle that the entire society suffers from. it looks like we have 2 extreme scenarios in recent history which both have proven to keep the recidivism rate rather low:
- amsterdam
- taliban

i'll take either

[laura]

Originally posted by $tinkle
it looks like we have 2 extreme scenarios in recent history which both have proven to keep the recidivism rate rather low:
- amsterdam
- taliban

i'll take either


you're a strange guy.

[Silver]

Originally posted by laura
i dont think he is saying that the criminals are the victims. we are all the victims. locking someone up for 5-10 for smoking or selling weed is only going to put them back out in public as a person who has been removed from society for 10 years, cant find a job, more often than not, doesnt have a place to stay, and goes straight back to selling drugs just to get back on his feet.


we have got to stop looking at things in an us vs. them view. having disconected, homeless, jobless criminals out on the street effects me just as much as it effects them or you and throwing them back in jail doesnt solve anything for our problems or theirs.

it is a vicious cycle that the entire society suffers from.

Bravo!

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by $tinkle
so, the criminals are the real victims?

how very tired i have grown of this indefensible position.

go on, then.

Did you fall asleep in church when the pastor was talking about the "least" of us?

Lame.

[Skookum]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Listen guys, not everything in the world is a conspiracy. Someone will profit no matter what the situation.

Yes but conspiracy is a federal crime punishable of up to 10 years. Better not get caught cookin up some dastardly scheme.

i really don't think the justice system and it's current problems are a "conspiracy" more than just a progression of problems and a system unwilling to fix the problems. There is way more to this issue than just the prison system, i'm sure books have been written about all the reasons we have so much crime to begin with.

But yes my retort is that the taxpayer (We/Us/The Good Guys) will profit if short-timing prisoners get a job instead of re-offend when they get out. We all stand to profit if we pull a few out of the rut.

Originally posted by $tinkle
it looks like we have 2 extreme scenarios in recent history which both have proven to keep the recidivism rate rather low:
- amsterdam
- taliban

i'll take either

It's really interesting to see $tinkle's brain vomit splashed upon the computer monitor. C'mon man you can do better than this....:p

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
So just how does your regime help prisoners reform (which should be the basis of any prison system). In your world when prisoners are released they're just thrown back into the world from whence they came with no skills except the criminal ones they learnt in prison. And you wonder why there are so many recidivists.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: You have no answer as usual Rhino other than hang 'em high.
If as much money was spent on reforming prisoners as was spent on punishment maybe the US wouldn't have prison statistics that would make dictators blush.

Dictators chop their heads off too.

Reform? We do have reform projects. Jail isn't a Community college. It doesn't change a persons will to offend or not.

We dont' hang them high.....maybe that is the problem. Eh, Valvy?:)

*edit* If there is ever a way to troll mess with someones name like that. :D - Rhiny

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by 911
I couldn't agree more... the primary objective of any correctional facility should be to correct whatever it is inside a person that leads them to a life of crime. This is certainly not to say prison should be a country club but... "They should make small rocks out of big rocks....eat....sleep.....and repeat"... are you serious?! What could this possibly accomplish?

Well giving them video games aint doing much. Smashing rocks is activity and teaches discipline. :rolleyes:

BUt I can see how you take my phrase literally....:rolleyes: :)

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Oh, i dunno, punishment for murderers and rapists maybe?

Why should prisoners get things even lower class free people cant? ie. colege education, great healthcare, cable TV, internet access....crap like that.
Sure, reform them, make prison a place so unbearable they'd never ever want to go back. (if only people worked like that).

How exactly do you reform a person anyhow?

There is no right answer here.

Reform is as scientific as psychology. It isn't an exact science. But I am not saying it shouldn't be tried. Those who hold that as teh fix all are seriously setting themselves up for a dissapointment.....like they expect people to magically change.

It is a corrections facilty, Corrections doesn't equate to reform, but maybe even reform isn't possible for most people. I guess thatoudl make the people outside feel better.....look Inmate XXXXXXXXX made a collage and is reading Jurasic Park. He is soooo going to do better.

NOTE SARCASTIC BIT ABOVE I KNOW REFORM ISN"T ALL COLLAGES AND STUFF :D

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Reform? We do have reform projects. Jail isn't a Community college. It doesn't change a persons will to offend or not.



Rhino, do you know it cost less to train a convict to weld or fix refrigeration than to pay to house and feed them for their life.

Do you not realize people with a trade are much less likely to re-offend?

I don't get it, your'e all about being bad-ass law and justice guys and you will continue to support pissing money away housing people and not even consider that there may be a cheaper and better way to deal with crime.

It's stupid Rhino, no you are not stupid, but wasting the tax payers money in jails that don't rehabilitate is a waste. Think of the weapons the Army could buy with the money we save on prisions.

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Skookum
Regardless of how plush some may percieve the prison system to be, it denies the person freedom. You lose freedom you lose dignity and the prisoner gains a reliance on the system. Institutionalization is quite real.

It's set up for failure when a "portion" of the corrections system is not being established for reform. Many prisoners who may have been open for rehabilitation is instead being returned to society without any proper social skills except for an expanded criminal thinking process.

If it's set up for failure only the industry of law and corrections look to benefit, but at the expense of victims and taxpayers.

Not to say that this should be a broad stroke and all criminals will take to reform. Not saying that it is realistic to see, or expect that hardened criminals would take to it. But there are many in the prison system who can be reached. So even a small percentage is an ideal that even staunch punish hungry hardliners should gravitate towards. Criminals who are going to be released back into society are going to be released. Want em back with a basic vocational education, some drug and alcohol rehabilitation, or do you want em back angry, hopeless, and trained only in anti-social behavior. And ask yourself before you say well we'll just send em back to the slammer if they didn't learn, for it might be at the expense of someone you know being the victim.

Criminals forsake their right to entitlement of rights certainly, but society is owed the opportunity to prevent crime not only thru punishment, but with reform as well.

Well written.

What? I can't acknowledge a well written post? :)

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA


What? I can't acknowledge a well written post? :)

No. :devil:

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Rhino, do you know it cost less to train a convict to weld or fix refrigeration than to pay to house and feed them for their life.

Do you not realize people with a trade are much less likely to re-offend?

I don't get it, your'e all about being bad-ass law and justice guys and you will continue to support pissing money away housing people and not even consider that there may be a cheaper and better way to deal with crime.

It's stupid Rhino, no you are not stupid, but wasting the tax payers money in jails that don't rehabilitate is a waste. Think of the weapons the Army could buy with the money we save on prisions.

I agree people shouldn't do stupid sh!t to go to jail.

I say send all inmates that are able into the armed forces. Boot camp and all and punish them severly if they flee. They get monitoring, dicipline, real world skills and training and our country gets a fighting force. Make it volintary. We pay for them either way....but we get some use out of them. Didn't the French Foriegn legion made like this?:)

Teach them how to weld and plumb and build houses while in jail. Make money off them while they practice it.....HINT THEY ALREADY DO. While it is more likely an inmate that can weld will not reoffend is good, but it is no easy garauntee.

Men getting it from their wifes regularly are less likely to stray.....doesn't mean it stops many man from doing so. :) I suggest Woman Against Men Straying (WAMS) be created to teach and assist women in keeping their men satisfied so the divorce rate drops. :cool:

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
No. :devil: :p lol

Doesn't mean I agree with everything. I don't dissagree with it all either.

[laura]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Rhino, do you know it cost less to train a convict to weld or fix refrigeration than to pay to house and feed them for their life.




not to mention the fact that by starting systems like this in jails you are creating jobs for people with certain trades to come in and teach.

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

Teach them how to weld and plumb and build houses while in jail. Make money off them while they practice it.....HINT THEY ALREADY DO. While it is more likely an inmate that can weld will not reoffend is good, but it is no easy garauntee.



Did you have a pair of Prison Blues jeans? I loved 'em, stronger than Carharts and made in Oregon by the inmates. Somebody sued and they stopped making them.

Better than having inmates serve in the Army, how about we employ them in road construction or other civil projects like the CCC of the 30's?

I understand there is no 100% sure fire answer to this issue but we need to start asking some questions about it.

I have been victum to crime and my family has suffered graetly at the hands of criminals. I'm not dumb, I understand some people are not able to live in our society with out hurting others. It's the ones who made dumb mistakes and know it that we need to work harder at helping.

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by laura
not to mention the fact that by starting systems like this in jails you are creating jobs for people with certain trades to come in and teach.

Yes yes. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a life time. I agree.

Ahhh but a slighlty near-sighted Rhino once said, "There are those that go and steal others crab pots. Knowing full well how to crab" :D

Reform isn't the end all answer BUT it is part of the solution. They do reform programs already.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Did you fall asleep in church when the pastor was talking about the "least" of us?

Lame. i didn't go to a universalist unitarian church
not fire & brimstone either - somewhere in between.

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Reform isn't the end all answer BUT it is part of the solution. They do reform programs already.

That's the issue, as I see it, they do reform programs that don't seem to work.

So how and what needs to be done to fix the system? Or is it beyond repair?

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Did you have a pair of Prison Blues jeans? I loved 'em, stronger than Carharts and made in Oregon by the inmates. Somebody sued and they stopped making them.

Better than having inmates serve in the Army, how about we employ them in road construction or other civil projects like the CCC of the 30's?

I understand there is no 100% sure fire answer to this issue but we need to start asking some questions about it.

I have been victum to crime and my family has suffered graetly at the hands of criminals. I'm not dumb, I understand some people are not able to live in our society with out hurting others. It's the ones who made dumb mistakes and know it that we need to work harder at helping.

never made them big enough for my ass. :)

They do road clean ups don't they? I think... I don't see why they couldn't be cheapo labor for goverment road projects....get money back from the contract holders. :)

Iamsorry for asking but what is the CCC stand for? I have an idea but the 3 C's don't make any sense to me. :o:

How does one sue to stop inmates makeing blue jeans? :think: Do you know why? Sounds kinda funny. Was it the profiting off of inmates sort of thing or a liability suit....for jeans? :confused:

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by $tinkle
i didn't go to a universalist unitarian church
not fire & brimstone either - somewhere in between.

I didn't either, I heard this message at Assembly of God and Methodist churches.

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
never made them big enough for my ass. :)

They do road clean ups don't they? I think... I don't see why they couldn't be cheapo labor for goverment road projects....get money back from the contract holders. :)

Iamsorry for asking but what is the CCC stand for? I have an idea but the 3 C's don't make any sense to me. :o:

How does one sue to stop inmates makeing blue jeans? :think: Do you know why? Sounds kinda funny. Was it the profiting off of inmates sort of thing or a liability suit....for jeans? :confused:

CCC

Civilian Conservation Corps.

They built the roads up to Mt. Rainier and the lodge. I think most of the national parks. The Golden Gate bridge, Grand Coulee etc...

I don't know the deatails of the jeans law suit. I'll Google and see what I can find.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Skookum
It's really interesting to see $tinkle's brain vomit splashed upon the computer monitor. C'mon man you can do better than this....:p it's hard to do this & optimise my code (damn work).

for today, i'm reduced to bumper stickers.

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
That's the issue, as I see it, they do reform programs that don't seem to work.

So how and what needs to be done to fix the system? Or is it beyond repair?

What isn't working? Program or students? I don't have an answer for that part.

ultimately it is the inmates choice to reoffend.

What do we teach them? They will be convicts on the outside. so What trades are excepting of convicts? Accountants? :D CFO's? LOL

Labor industries even shy away....but maybe with a decent program with a certificate and some big companies tostart off with when they get out they could have some power (certificate, letter of recomendation of that first employer, etc.) when they go on in life.

Rhino

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
I say send all inmates that are able into the armed forces. Boot camp and all and punish them severly if they flee. They get monitoring, dicipline, real world skills and training and our country gets a fighting force. Make it volintary. We pay for them either way....but we get some use out of them. Didn't the French Foriegn legion made like this?:)

Teach them how to weld and plumb and build houses while in jail. Make money off them while they practice it.....HINT THEY ALREADY DO. While it is more likely an inmate that can weld will not reoffend is good, but it is no easy garauntee. from the din of bluster arises a desert flower of reason.

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
CCC

Civilian Conservation Corps.

They built the roads up to Mt. Rainier and the lodge. I think most of the national parks. The Golden Gate bridge, Grand Coulee etc...

I don't know the deatails of the jeans law suit. I'll Google and see what I can find.

in the 30's..... I kept picturing a line of guys swinging pick-axes. Thanks for clearing that up.

I think we should put them to work....not easy work, but work. I have no problem there.

I get uneasy when we reform by having them go to psychologists etc and talk about their feeligns and blaming their parents for having sex while the crib was in the room or something. Counseling is one thing but thinking that the mysteriesof why they are their way....in a clinical setting is hoping to much. I wouldn't trust a prison counselor with all my info if any. That stuff could be used against you....I suspect.

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by $tinkle
from the din of bluster arises a desert flower of reason.

:D

:think:

Hey! :angry:

LOL

[ummbikes]

http://www.prisonblues.com/411.php

They resolved the issues and are up and running.

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Counseling is one thing but thinking that the mysteriesof why they are their way....in a clinical setting is hoping to much.

It (some counciling) is quite effective, cognitive behavior therapy has a proven track record of sucess.

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
http://www.prisonblues.com/411.php

They resolved the issues and are up and running.

hahahaha

http://www.prisonblues.com/images/sidebar-411.gif

Prison Blues are made to do hard time. :D That is to funny.

:thumb: :cool:

All inmates working in the factory are paid prevailing industry wages, which range from a base of $6.68 per hour to well over $8.00 per hour. They also can earn bonus incentives for quality and productivity. Inmates pay their own way with their earnings. 80% is withheld from their earnings by the state of Oregon to pay for incarceration costs, victim restitution, family support, and state and federal wage taxes. Yes, inmates in Oregon's prison industries pay taxes.

The 20% left can be used for voluntary family support, to pay for continued education, buy items at the prison canteen or deposit in a savings account. An inmate can accumulate a decent nest egg after working in the program for a number of years of incarceration.

That is good to hear. I thought $8/hr and they don't have any living expenses...:)

[ummbikes]

I'm getting some jeans, there is place that carries them in Chehalis. :D

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I'm getting some jeans, there is place that carries them in Chehalis. :D

sweet!

:)

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
That is good to hear. I thought $8/hr and they don't have any living expenses...:)
uhh, no, they makde ~$1.60/hr...

If they saved half of that over a 5 yr jail term, they'd have $8000 to start their new life off. That's pretty damned good.

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by LordOpie
uhh, no, they makde ~$1.60/hr...

If they saved half of that over a 5 yr jail term, they'd have $8000 to start their new life off. That's pretty damned good.

I know that.........I guess I wasn't clear I thought they made $8 expenses paid but htemsaw that 80% goes back to pay for restitustion family aid and incarceration costs.

20% is independant spending money for extras at teh prison store and can be saved and sent to family.

My mind raced with what $8hr over 5-10 years could accumulate to.......like in HS mowing lawns with little expenses. I could save money fast. :) That was all.

I think the $8 is for show since they do see about $1.60 of it....though some of the retained moeny goes to their families.

I did the math...but I was doing the math before I finished the paragraph. :D lol

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by LordOpie
uhh, no, they makde ~$1.60/hr...

If they saved half of that over a 5 yr jail term, they'd have $8000 to start their new life off. That's pretty damned good. at the risk of making a sweeping generalization, what makes you so sure they'd start a new life, and not re-engage their old one?

to be sure, i like the idea, and everyone who is teachable should get a break. my wife worked in arapahoe county jail for 2 years, so you can imagine she's a bit jaded. Something about having a guy tell her "i'm going to kill you, then i'm going to rape you", just because he didn't get his willy horton wknd pass to go out & beat the crap out of his live in girlfriend.

i'm sure he was the exception, eh? :rolleyes:

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by $tinkle
at the risk of making a sweeping generalization, what makes you so sure they'd start a new life, and not re-engage their old one?

to be sure, i like the idea, and everyone who is teachable should get a break. my wife worked in arapahoe county jail for 2 years, so you can imagine she's a bit jaded. Something about having a guy tell her "i'm going to kill you, then i'm going to rape you", just because he didn't get his willy horton wknd pass to go out & beat the crap out of his live in girlfriend.

i'm sure he was the exception, eh? :rolleyes:


that, and....nobody answered my question. How do you reform somebody?
If someone cant be taught right and wrong from an early age, how are you going to make a difference to a criminal?

[PsychO!1]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
that, and....nobody answered my question. How do you reform somebody?
If someone can't be taught right and wrong from an early age, how are you going to make a difference to a criminal?


Can't be taught, or haven't been taught??

I think most of the population IS taught the difference between right and wrong at an early age.

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by PsychO!1
Can't be taught, or haven't been taught??

I think most of the population IS taught the difference between right and wrong at an early age.


I think so too, so that buries the excuse of "they dont know any better, so education will reforme them"

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I think so too, so that buries the excuse of "they dont know any better, so education will reforme them"

So what is answer Burly?



I all seriousness what would you do?

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by $tinkle
at the risk of making a sweeping generalization, what makes you so sure they'd start a new life, and not re-engage their old one?
I don't. But IF someone does want a new start, having some money in the bank would help said convict on the path.

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I all seriousness what would you do? WWBD?

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ummbikes
So what is answer Burly?



I all seriousness what would you do?


I would do litle actually.
Id cut out the goodies of prison and put the inmates to other kinds of work. After their "punishment" is up, they go free having earned some money for a couplemonths rent and food. Reform only works for people willing to accept it. Its is my beleif that most criminals do not.

What "reform" do you have in mind that will change a person?

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I would do litle actually.
Id cut out the goodies of prison and put the inmates to other kinds of work. After their "punishment" is up, they go free having earned some money for a couplemonths rent and food. Reform only works for people willing to accept it. Its is my beleif that most criminals do not.

What "reform" do you have in mind that will change a person?

Id cut out the goodies of prison and put the inmates to other kinds of work.

Plus I would offer educational opportunites and psychological help that they could "pay" for with the money they earned while rebuilding I-5.

After their "punishment" is up, they go free having earned some money for a couplemonths rent and food and are better equiped to deal with freedom.

[Skookum]

Originally posted by BurlySurly


What "reform" do you have in mind that will change a person?
Boot Camp, Drug and Alcohol Treatment Facilities, Vocational training and Education, these perks for short timers along with intensive criminal thought process counseling. Which isn't the examination of how the criminal is a victim, but get's the criminal to realize he is a criminal and how he proceeds to victimize.

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Skookum
Boot Camp, Drug and Alcohol Treatment Facilities, Vocational training and Education, these perks for short timers along with intensive criminal thought process counseling. Which isn't the examination of how the criminal is a victim, but get's the criminal to realize he is a criminal and how he proceeds to victimize.


I like the bootcamp idea...

short timers...like 5 years or less? Id say sure, for criminals of the non-violent variety who tend to get those sentences. Im not against the education, I just find it ironic that it'd be easier to get it by robbing a bank than working a job and saving for it. Crazy classes couldnt hurt...but I still doubt the effectiveness of any of this on a large majority of inmates.

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Id cut out the goodies of prison and put the inmates to other kinds of work.

Plus I would offer educational opportunites and psychological help that they could "pay" for with the money they earned while rebuilding I-5.

After their "punishment" is up, they go free having earned some money for a couplemonths rent and food and are better equiped to deal with freedom.

ok, good. I could live with that. But that is not reform. that's punishment still.

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Im not against the education, I just find it ironic that it'd be easier to get it by robbing a bank than working a job and saving for it.
I still think every high school should have a vocational program or two. If a kid wants a vocational degree instead of prepping for college, cool. And if the kid wants a vocation that's offered at one of the other schools nearby, that he/she should be bused there for either the morning or afternoon sessions while still learning basics of math, english, personal finance, anything to help him become a good citizen -- drop that history and art crap.

Then, in the second half of senior year, they get an internship that's supervised by the school. So, he/she graduates with a HS diploma and a voc.certificate and some experience... maybe gets hired on at the place he did his internship at.

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by LordOpie
I still think every high school should have a vocational program or two. If a kid wants a vocational degree instead of prepping for college, cool. And if the kid wants a vocation that's offered at one of the other schools nearby, that he/she should be bused there for either the morning or afternoon sessions while still learning basics of math, english, personal finance, anything to help him become a good citizen -- drop that history and art crap.

Then, in the second half of senior year, they get an internship that's supervised by the school. So, he/she graduates with a HS diploma and a voc.certificate and some experience... maybe gets hired on at the place he did his internship at.

or he could rop out and beat up his grandmother.

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
that, and....nobody answered my question. How do you reform somebody?
If someone cant be taught right and wrong from an early age, how are you going to make a difference to a criminal?
This of course all supposes that a leopard can't change his spots. None of us here are criminologists so we're all basically just p*ssin' in the wind (some more than others:D ) but reform has to come at all levels of the system. It's no use just trying to reform people when they're in jail, the whole focus should be on not getting them there in the first place and then if they do end up in prison making sure they don't come back. This by necessity means some sort of support structure for released prisoners. As it stands now the system is re-active rather than pro-active and the cycle repeats itself.
I believe one simple way to start would be to seperate people who were jailed for violent offences from people jailed for non-violent crimes.
Another step would be to link education and training to the remission of the sentence (I'm sure this already happens). Again ongoing support in and OUT of prison. Of course the usual right wingers do their Rumpelstiltskin act, frothing at the mouth ranting "why should we give those scumbags anything". Unfortunately they can't see past the ends of their noses to realise that by helping them we are helping ourselves. To these crew criminals should be Out of Sight, Out of Mind (http://www.abc.net.au/programsales/programs/s104421.htm) (Best docco I've seen on prisons.)

[fluff]

Interesting report about the mental state of the US prison population.

Rates of Mental Illness in Prison (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1003/)

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“On any given day, at least 284,000 schizophrenic and manic depressive individuals are incarcerated, and 547,800 are on probation. We have unfortunately come to accept incarceration and homelessness as part of life for the most vulnerable population among us.”

— Congressman Ted Strickland7
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[$tinkle]

Originally posted by fluff
Interesting report about the mental state of the US prison population.

Rates of Mental Illness in Prison (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1003/)
dude! how 'bout some warning first?!?!?But the serious mental illness of some prisoners is easily identified even by the layman: they rub feces on themselves, stick pencils in their penises, bite chunks of flesh from their bodies, slash themselves, hallucinate, rant and rave, mumble incoherently, stare fixedly at the walls.
my wife has a few scary/saddening stories from not only working at the jail, but she also did a stint at Boulder Psychiatric Hospital. Sure seems like we're a society of warehousers, not healers.

good link, i'll be poring over it for days.