View Full Version : Wham
valve bouncer
12-12-2003, 03:29 AM
Winning hearts and minds again in Iraq. Whattya think of this monkeys?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm
It's obviously been heavily edited. I'd like to see what this guy did to deserve this. A bit brutal but nothing too evil, don't watch if easily offended.
I'll save my comments for after so as not to ruin the "viewing experience":rolleyes:
Killing a man while hes down and out of action is murder, i think this is an isolated incident and putting down the entire U.S army because of the disgusting and cowardly behavior of a small bunch of soldiers would be unfair to the rest.
fluff
12-12-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by N8
War is Hell.
Descartes had nothing on you did he?
Originally posted by fluff
Descartes had nothing on you did he?
You are making a LOT of assumptions in asserting that the video is actual footage.... I highly doubt it, because if it was, we'd have seen it LONG before now. Looks cobbled together to me for someone's propaganda purposes.
However, sh*t happens in war.... nothing to get your panties in a wad over assuming that the video is authentic (which I doubt).
Silver
12-12-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by N8
However, sh*t happens in war.... nothing to get your panties in a wad over assuming that the video is authentic (which I doubt).
Yep, just like My Lai...**** happens in war, right? Gotta let the GIs blow off some steam, y'know.
And hey, the family of that Iraqi won't be pissed either, will they? They'll understand, right? Or will that guy's younger brother end up driving an explosives laden truck into a bunch of people?
RhinofromWA
12-12-2003, 10:12 AM
WIth all assumptions in place. *I have no sound on my computer but I read the blurbs below the video*
Man has a hostile.
They were in a fire fight.
I don't see the big problem with what was shown.
The deceased was injured and trying to flee. I would have dropped him to. He wasn't surrendering or laying down his weapon. They didn't roll up to some guy asleep on the sidewalk and put a bullet in his head.
N8 said "War is Hell" although to simplified for many, it rings true.
These men are in a situation I hope to never be in and how people react and handle stress like that is different than most of us can truely understand.
*again I didn't hear the sound so the the "script" might have lost something in translation*
Westy
12-12-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by N8
You are making a LOT of assumptions in asserting that the video is actual footage.... I highly doubt it, because if it was, we'd have seen it LONG before now. Looks cobbled together to me for someone's propaganda purposes.
However, sh*t happens in war.... nothing to get your panties in a wad over assuming that the video is authentic (which I doubt).
War is hell and **** does happen, but people still need to be responsible for their actions. That video certainly does not show the whole story, that guy could have had a rifle or RPG. But if that guy was truly down and unarmed the people who shot him need to be prosecuted. War is hell but there still are rules, how would you feel if the guy on the ground was a Marine? Follow the rules of war whether or not your enemies do. We train and pay for a professional army, not a gang of murderers.
RhinofromWA
12-12-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Silver
Yep, just like My Lai...**** happens in war, right? Gotta let the GIs blow off some steam, y'know.
And hey, the family of that Iraqi won't be pissed either, will they? They'll understand, right? Or will that guy's younger brother end up driving an explosives laden truck into a bunch of people?
Or tranversly he WONT be able to and his younger brother would have anyway.
Letting him go would have done what? Who know but I doubt it would have sent good cheer through the hostiles and convinced them to bake us cookies.
Rhino
RhinofromWA
12-12-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Westy
War is hell and **** does happen, but people still need to be responsible for their actions. That video certainly does not show the whole story, that guy could have had a rifle or RPG. But if that guy was truly down and unarmed the people who shot him need to be prosecuted. War is hell but there still are rules, how would you feel if the guy on the ground was a Marine? Follow the rules of war whether or not your enemies do. We train and pay for a professional army, not a gang of murderers.
Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
~~~~~~~~~~~
I see tracer fire (or something exploding behind the man in the picture) they are still in a fire fight. The man had not surrendered (as far as I see).
It seems most people have trouble with the adavantage the marine had over the hostile. Bleeding hearts say "let him go"......people in the fire fight with bullets rushing by thier heads say "Oh my he is still moving" I guess you would rather see teh marine wounded in immenent danger before allowing him to kill the enemy.
Should we wager if that guy had a pistol as the marine walked up what he would have done?
valve bouncer
12-12-2003, 10:23 AM
After viewing that footage my first thoughts were of the famous footage from the Vietnam war of the Saigon police chief executing some guy. I'm sure you've all seen the footage, it came to represent the moral vacuum apparent in America's support for the regime in South Vietnam. What is not immediately apparent was that the man executed was a NVA soldier in civilian clothes caught in the act of sabotage. Under the rules of war his summary execution was allowable. Whether it was morally justified is another question. So like that incident I'd like to know the background to this incident. The raw footage does look bad and if US soldiers are shooting injured, (apparently) unarmed people in the back then it is important to get to the bottom of it. I'll withold judgement until I know the full story however. I think we can disregard the comments of the soldier at the end, obviously a crude piece of editing.
Westy
12-12-2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by valve bouncer
I think we can disregard the comments of the soldier at the end, obviously a crude piece of editing.
No doubt, his comments could have been about a football game as much as the shooting incident.
I normally would not say the following about anything but, it is far too easy to discuss fire fights and the actions taken in them when you have not been in one before. You simply do not understand, for or against, you simply do not understand.
Jorvik
12-12-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by RhinofromWA
I see tracer fire (or something exploding behind the man in the picture) they are still in a fire fight. The man had not surrendered (as far as I see).
It seems most people have trouble with the adavantage the marine had over the hostile. Bleeding hearts say "let him go"......people in the fire fight with bullets rushing by thier heads say "Oh my he is still moving" I guess you would rather see teh marine wounded in immenent danger before allowing him to kill the enemy.
Should we wager if that guy had a pistol as the marine walked up what he would have done?
Exactly my thoughts. I've got more than a couple friends over there, and pending graduation from Boot Camp, I might be sent over there too. It looks to me that the fire fight was still going on. Anybody who seems to be a threat will get shot, enough said.
Anyways, who are we to judge what these Marines did? That clip was taken completly out of context and there are no other angles of the battle. The interview at the end is irrelevant too, don't know why thats in there with it. Actually, I do. To further the psyche of the anti-war people in thinking that we're nothing but a bunch of indescriminant killers. Warriors job description is to kill. Suck it up nancy boys.
llkoolkeg
12-12-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by valve bouncer
After viewing that footage my first thoughts were of the famous footage from the Vietnam war of the Saigon police chief executing some guy. I'm sure you've all seen the footage, it came to represent the moral vacuum apparent in America's support for the regime in South Vietnam. What is not immediately apparent was that the man executed was a NVA soldier in civilian clothes caught in the act of sabotage. Under the rules of war his summary execution was allowable. Whether it was morally justified is another question. So like that incident I'd like to know the background to this incident. The raw footage does look bad and if US soldiers are shooting injured, (apparently) unarmed people in the back then it is important to get to the bottom of it. I'll withold judgement until I know the full story however. I think we can disregard the comments of the soldier at the end, obviously a crude piece of editing.
:stupid:
Another point- if that Iraqi was a mortally wounded combatant with no hope of medical attention(as it appeared), the coup-de-grace was merciful even if the intent was not.
Originally posted by DRB
I normally would not say the following about anything but, it is far too easy to discuss fire fights and the actions taken in them when you have not been in one before. You simply do not understand, for or against, you simply do not understand.
And for that very reason, oddly, I have nothing to say.
fluff
12-12-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by N8
You are making a LOT of assumptions in asserting that the video is actual footage.... I highly doubt it, because if it was, we'd have seen it LONG before now. Looks cobbled together to me for someone's propaganda purposes.
However, sh*t happens in war.... nothing to get your panties in a wad over assuming that the video is authentic (which I doubt).
Did you read something other than what I wrote?
Originally posted by fluff
Did you read something other than what I wrote?
In my opinion, it's not that you wote but what you implied by bothering to take the time to post it here for review...
fluff
12-12-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by N8
In my opinion, it's not that you wote but what you implied by bothering to take the time to post it here for review...
All I implied is that it doesn't take a genius to work out that war is hell. Anything else you put there yourself.
valve bouncer
12-12-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by fluff
All I implied is that it doesn't take a genius to work out that war is hell. Anything else you put there yourself.
blinding insight is not one of N8's specialties. He prefers to ride on the coat-tails of those cleverer than himself which is just about everyone;) :D
Originally posted by valve bouncer
blinding insight is not one of N8's specialties. He prefers to ride on the coat-tails of those cleverer than himself which is just about everyone;) :D
...damn... I've been figured out....
:eek:
:p
llkoolkeg
12-12-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by valve bouncer
cleverer
:confused:
:D
valve bouncer
12-12-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by llkoolkeg
:confused:
:D
Hahhahaha, believe it or not I looked at that before posting and thought about changing it to the more grammatically correct version, but I thought "nah" no-one is gonna be anal enough to worry about it. Shoulda known better, huh:rolleyes: :D
P.S- the rule on 2 syllable adjectives is a little fuzzy but generally you use "more" with those 2 syllables adjectives that don't end in "y" although "er" is the more common usage with "clever" where I come from. I teach my students both.
Originally posted by valve bouncer
blinding insight is not one of N8's specialties. He prefers to ride on the coat-tails of those cleverer than himself which is just about everyone;) :D
Baa-Baa....
:p
If the video was real then it would have been investigated just like what happend to this Army officer:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/12/sprj.nirq.west.ruling/
TimeBomb
12-12-2003, 07:14 PM
The military is in no doubt in harms way there. They are in a much better positon to decide when to shoot to kill then us over here in our condos, homes and apartments. As mentioned above, if they were wrong and the video is true to the actual event, there would be charges.
fluff
12-12-2003, 07:36 PM
Regardless of the actual events and authenticity of the video the reverse logic doesn't hold up to analysis. Basically what is being postulated is;
'If it was real there would be charges and as there have been no charges therefore it cannot be real.'
That is illogical and complete nonsense.
Originally posted by fluff
Regardless of the actual events and authenticity of the video the reverse logic doesn't hold up to analysis. Basically what is being postulated is;
'If it was real there would be charges and as there have been no charges therefore it cannot be real.'
That is illogical and complete nonsense.
:p
partsbara
12-12-2003, 10:10 PM
mmm, i haven t killed anyone in a long while...
wheres my gun ?
Westy
12-12-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by partsbara
wheres my gun ?
Dunno. But my my SKS is 10" from my left hand as I type and a loaded stripper clip is sitting on top of my computer. Just waitin' for dem pesky neighbors to act up.
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