For those wondering, e13 SRS and Saint cranks are compatible. [Archive]

John P.

10-30-2003, 12:31 PM

Finally got some Saint cranks from Shimano the other day, and had a chance to fit them up with one of our guides. Some slight mods are necessary, but it will fit up. The only big problem I can foresee is that the effective spindle length (as far as chainguide spacing is concerned) is 113 mm. This makes for a pretty sick chainline, but it spaces the boomerang so close to the frame that there will likely be problems with tire rub and boomerang/frame interference.

Anyway, here are my notes from the install:

Modifications for use with SRS:
-You need to slightly file out Center hole on boomerang (~.5mm) to allow the Saint bearings to pass through the boomerang. Interestingly, the OD of the bearing assembly on the BB is the exact same as the ID of the boomerang hole.
-You need to slightly file down the crank slot on bashring (see photos) to allow the gi-normous crank arm to fit into the bashring.
-You need to slightly file down granny bosses on crank to keep from rubbing on the back plate.
-You need to ditch the Saint Chainring, as it won't really fit on the back of the spider (only really fits on the front of the spider, where the bashring is supposed to be).

Other Notes from the install:
-You need special tools for tightening the BB shells and the weird little bolt that tightens down the whole system at the BB axle/non driveside crank interface. Shimano did not supply either of these.
-Stock BB spacing appears to be similar to a 113, which puts the boomerang very close to the frame - expect tire rub and boomerang/frame interference problems unless BB spacers are used.
-The stock chainring only works on the outer position of the spider :confused:
-Weight of the Saint system: 2.2 lbs. (for comparison, I weighed a profile setup with a cromo spindle and it weighed 2.4 pounds).

I think that's about it for now. I'll attach some photos.

--JP

John P.

10-30-2003, 12:32 PM

Pic from the back side - no spacers needed between backplate and ISCG mount.

John P.

10-30-2003, 12:35 PM

Photo of the mods that were necessary to the bashring.

dexter

10-30-2003, 05:37 PM

well ****fire looks like im gonna run middleburn cranks this year thats wayyyy wayyy to heavy jesus. anyone know the weight of a pair of holzfellers with the team dh bb or middleburns with the same bb or a ti one??
thanks

JRogers

10-30-2003, 06:20 PM

Damn, that is heavy, especially for a Shimano product; usually they are pretty weight conscious for almost all parts. Well, they are probably one of the stiffest sets on the market. Huge beef, outboard bearings and a massive spindle.

Instigator

10-30-2003, 07:23 PM

John P. , as usual you guys at evil/e13 keep us updated with good info on you products and fit questions. Thank you again for keeping us in the loop.

Rock on

HippieKai

10-30-2003, 07:33 PM

hey John, you are RAD! i have talked to you on the phone a few times about stuff and you are always more then helpfull. You will be hearing from me next week too. Your great survice and sweet products have convinced me to get a frame and my second guide from you. Good work man! Props

neversummersnow

10-30-2003, 08:13 PM

Dexter, I am getting a Middleburn order together, lemme know if you want some...call me

(FOR REAL THIS TIME FOOL)

Dirty

10-30-2003, 08:21 PM

hey, although ive never heard anybody ask this, im sure youve been asked a lot, is e-thirteen gonna come out with a guide assembly for a bmx bb? i saw you had a bmx chain ring that can mount your bash guard, but what about a guide?
thanks

Incubus

10-30-2003, 09:15 PM

The RF diabolus look to be a good option. They look relatively svelt and use the same style outboard bearings.

sub6

10-30-2003, 09:38 PM

Wow, it [Saint] saves a whopping 90 grams over a set of PROFILES. Damn. So much for that.....:rolleyes:

dhmtbj

10-30-2003, 10:29 PM

Dirty

10-30-2003, 10:40 PM

i dont think the cups being pressed rather than threaded is an issue...im using a 24 bicycles guide right now, which just get pressed between the frame and the bb cup...loosening hasnt been an issue. The reason i ask about the evil guide being made for a bmx bb is i would like to run a bash guard...soemthing the 24 guide doesnt allow...

evils new chainring for BMX cranks allows the bash to be mounted to the ring without a spider

shown here
http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/news/?op=articleview&id=1722 (last picture down)

sub6

10-30-2003, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Dirty
i dont think the cups being pressed rather than threaded is an issue...im using a 24 bicycles guide right now, which just get pressed between the frame and the bb cup...loosening hasnt been an issue. The reason i ask about the evil guide being made for a bmx bb is i would like to run a bash guard...soemthing the 24 guide doesnt allow...

evils new chainring for BMX cranks allows the bash to be mounted to the ring without a spider

shown here
http://www.pinkbike.com/modules/news/?op=articleview&id=1722 (last picture down)

I think the evil guys have posted about this before, something about how the insertion depth of a BMX BB cup is not great enough to support a chainguide without running a risk of damaging [ovalizing?] the BB shell. Generally it's an unwise thing to do, whether 24 does it or not......

At least that's how I remember it.

Edit - a Hopey steering damper works the same way - a plate that's pressed in between your top headset cup and your headtube. A lot of guys ovalized their headtubes using the damper, because they didn't run a deep-cup headset. I'm not aware of a deep-cup BMX BB cup.....

Colin

10-31-2003, 12:05 AM

Gusset makes a press-in BMX bb cup that features ISCG mounts. Thus, you can run a chainguide with an American/BMX bb.

John P.

10-31-2003, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by Dirty
hey, although ive never heard anybody ask this, im sure youve been asked a lot, is e-thirteen gonna come out with a guide assembly for a bmx bb? i saw you had a bmx chain ring that can mount your bash guard, but what about a guide?
thanks
Before this thread gets completely bastardized, we have never made a BMX-specific guide because the economics of it just didn't work. I think we figured that we *might* be able to sell 100 BMX guides per year, and at those relatively low quantities, the price for the guide would sky rocket.

Along similar lines, we have developed a new ISCG standard for '05 that most companies in the industry have already signed onto that will solve BMX problems in the future. Among other things, ISCG05 basically moves the chainguide mount points out further from the center of the BB so BMX, Euro, and the new oversized ISIS (called either 'overdrive' or 'mega drive' depending on who you ask) can all use the same standard.

As for our Crown Ring chainwheel, it can be used very well for BMX applications, but the main impetus of developing it was to solve the problem of poorly designed/manufactured spiders on 3-piece cranks. With the C-Ring (imagine Spoony Luv's voice), you mount the ring directly to the crank and ditch the spider all together. That may help your situation, Dirty, but if not, I think Blackspire makes a pretty decent BMX-compatible guide.

I hope this answers your questions sufficiently.

Now let's get back to discussing Saint/SRS compatibility!!! :)

--JP

ohio

10-31-2003, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by John P.
Now let's get back to discussing Saint/SRS compatibility!!! :)

--JP

I'm not a religious man, but there's got to be something wrong about mounting an Evil guide on a Saint crankset.

Transcend

10-31-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by ohio
I'm not a religious man, but there's got to be something wrong about mounting an Evil guide on a Saint crankset.

I find that it's quite the perfect mating actually!:devil:

Dirty

10-31-2003, 03:59 PM

ooo...that sounds like a good alternative....got a website or some more info on them?

Jeremy R

12-15-2003, 12:02 PM

Um, I just got PMed by a guy who could not find this thread so I am bringing it back to like for him.

Tenacious Doug

01-08-2004, 04:03 AM

Well I had already ordered my Saints when I came across this (while researching for a new chain device), certainly makes interesting reading and now wondering whether the Saints are going to be more trouble than they are worth. I accept that chain device fitting often relies on a bit of modification to get it working good but it just seems that the Saint setup is making it even worse, and apparently it will stop me running a tyre thicker than 2.3", so thats a new tyre and new chainring on top of the chainguide and crankset just to get it to fit properly.........too much effort in my book.

Dont want to hijack the thread away from the topic of the SRS guide but what experiences has anyone had of fitting to other chainguides on the market?

Brian HCM#1

01-08-2004, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by ohio
I'm not a religious man, but there's got to be something wrong about mounting an Evil guide on a Saint crankset. Well its kinda on the lines of mounting a religious little slut.;) :p It's just fun:D

Sorry for the temporary derailment;)

nick1111

01-08-2004, 04:25 PM

Does anyone foresee any problems with running the Evil SRS with Saint cranks on a Banshee Scream? I want to buy an SRS/Saint cranks for my Scream.

thanks

Lejk

01-09-2004, 09:52 AM

Sorry for talking a little bit of topic, but I feel that there have been so much talk about how heavy the Saints are, so I just felt I have to point out one thing...

I made som comparison between the Saint cranks and some of the other popular alu cranks. I added the weight of the top DH bb from each brand, weight of the chainring is also included for all but the profiles and middleburns:

Saint: 999g
Profile: 1089g
Holzfeller: 999g
Hussefelt: 1099g
Northshore: 1075g
Evolve: 1150g
Middleburn: 763g

To get hold of the weight of all of these cranks, bb etc. I used the homepages of Raceface and Truativ. For the Middleburn I used CRC. The specs. for The Saints and Profiles I used the same as stated earlier in this thread. I also have found an older spec on the Profiles from a MBUK mag from 2001 that claims a weight of 1145g...

Well what are my conlusion from this..

Chill out guys, they aren't THAT heavy.. they just aren't as light as the old XTR DH-cranks. But then againg then only cost around £160 (I got them for £130), so what did you expect?

nick1111

01-11-2004, 11:56 PM

punkassean

01-12-2004, 12:22 AM

i am running Saint on my stinky and I weighed my bike with MRP bones and then again with saint and bones sys 2 guide. The before weight was 41.25 and after was 40.5 (.75lb less) That helps to compensate for the added weight off the Swinger 6 way and WTB timberwolf 2.5 super duty tires I just put on. bringing the weight back up to around 42lbs. I guess bones are more like the profile SS cranks weight wise. I can say that saint is light and every bit as stiff as bones. as far the saint chainring only working on the outside you can use the same file that you used to clearance your bashring and boomerang hole to remove about 1 mil from each arm . the bolt holes will still center the ring. that is what I had to do on the MRP bones. I really like shimano rings and the saint ring is light. Hooray for saint!!! side note, I installed an evil SRS on some Kona cro-mo ISIS bulge cranks and it was so easy and works perfect. Hooray for EVIL!!! maybe once I get bored of bones I will get an Evil...thanks evil, for being a "core"company and making truly innovative products that help push our sport and give riders one or two fewer things to worry about!

firevsh2o

01-12-2004, 03:45 AM

I ordered a set of Race Face Diabolus cranks with the new bottom bracket system (Saint like) and I'm now wondering if they work with my Evil SRS. (Yes I can give them back if they don't work) I have a 73 mm bottom bracket and no changuide tabs on my bike and that may be sort of a problem I guess.

Has anybody mounted such a combination yet? Do you see any problems?

DHS

01-12-2004, 02:19 PM

um, the new Raceface cranks with that BB type, won't be avalible till Spring. so you got some months to go.

nick1111

01-12-2004, 10:04 PM

Where did you order the diabolus cranks?

firevsh2o

01-13-2004, 01:17 AM

I ordered them at my LBS (in Austria) - I hope they are here till the end of february. My dealer said he is able to say me the definite date next week. He'll get them with his first stock shippment, he said.

What shipping dates have you heard?

DHS

01-13-2004, 01:25 AM

well i just talked to the guys at Race Face and they're saying not till like May or so.

mosh

02-04-2004, 05:53 PM

One would asume that it would be the same with a pair of XT's ? What cranks could you use that would not need any mods to your guide?

mtbdirteater

02-04-2004, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by John P.
<snip> Other Notes from the install:
-You need special tools for tightening the BB shells and the weird little bolt that tightens down the whole system at the BB axle/non driveside crank interface. Shimano did not supply either of these. <snip>

--JP

That rots. They look like exactly the same bearings (and therefore tools) that come with the current 960 Shimano XTR cranks. No tools included, eh?! I have not looked in a Saint crank retail box yet. Mine were under the bottom box flap in my XTR box. I'd call Shimano: any proprietary fasteners or gear that do not come with the specialized tools to install them, or where those tools are not made readily available, are an obvious problem for us suckers that buy them. Not acceptable in my book.

Dave

Slacker

02-04-2004, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by mtbdirteater
That rots. They look like exactly the same bearings (and therefore tools) that come with the current 960 Shimano XTR cranks. No tools included, eh?! I have not looked in a Saint crank retail box yet. Mine were under the bottom box flap in my XTR box. I'd call Shimano: any proprietary fasteners or gear that do not come with the specialized tools to install them, or where those tools are not made readily available, are an obvious problem for us suckers that buy them. Not acceptable in my book.

Dave

Exactly!

Thanks to whoever brought back this thread. You just saved me some $$ :D

Looks like it's old school XT BB and some Badger FR cranks for me.

John P.

02-04-2004, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by mosh
One would asume that it would be the same with a pair of XT's ? What cranks could you use that would not need any mods to your guide?

Pretty much every other crankset on the market. Seriously. I can't really think of any other that won't work with our guides.

--JP

nick1111

02-04-2004, 08:39 PM

Will Diabolus work fine?

sub6

02-04-2004, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by nick1111
Will Diabolus work fine?

Well, given that Diabolus cranks are not out yet, and will likely not be released until "May" (which means mid-summer at BEST in the industry), I think you're asking an awful lot of Mr. Pentecost there. They need to actually test the cranks first to answer your question...

Originally posted by DHS
well i just talked to the guys at Race Face and they're saying not till like May or so.

nick1111

02-04-2004, 10:22 PM

Why is Diabolus starting to appear in suppliers' databases if it won't be available till May? That's not typical.

Zark

02-05-2004, 12:02 AM

It looks like there is a fit problem with MRP's too. My friend Curt just picked up a System 1 ISCG guide for his Big Hit. He said the bash ring looked like it needed to be cut. I haven't seen it to confirm.

Anyone else encountered this? I seem to remember seeing mrp's on Saint cranks and not cut up.:think:

Eurotrash

02-05-2004, 05:53 AM

for a big hit you need a sys 2 mrp (the one with only 1 rotating plate)

Zark

02-05-2004, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Eurotrash
for a big hit you need a sys 2 mrp (the one with only 1 rotating plate)

Is that why every Big Hit DH comes specced with a sys 1?:rolleyes:
I used to have the bike, I'd know.

Eurotrash

02-05-2004, 11:05 AM

ok my mistake
I thought the sys 1 was only for elevated chainstay bikes

KonaDude

04-17-2004, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by nick1111
Does anyone foresee any problems with running the Evil SRS with Saint cranks on a Banshee Scream? I want to buy an SRS/Saint cranks for my Scream.

thanks

The Banshee rep at my shop said that Saint cranks were not going to fit on the Screams (03 or 04) and that they were currently working on a solution. I think it's just too narrow (113 equivalent spindle) for the huge rear end on those Screams.

punkassean

04-19-2004, 12:52 PM

I have a sys2 bones guide on saint cranks (stinky primo) and it fit fine. No cutting...

Repack

04-19-2004, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Zark
Is that why every Big Hit DH comes specced with a sys 1?:rolleyes:
I used to have the bike, I'd know.

In a way, you are both right. The BH does come with the 2 rotating plates, but they can get away with it b/c the rear end is welded 6mm off center towards the drive side to help correct the chain line. On normal FSR/ low chainstay bikes, you need the fixed inner plate.

binary visions

04-19-2004, 01:19 PM

I officially dub this "The Thread That Will Not Die".

Every time it bumps off the main page someone brings it back. It's over 6 months old!

darkangel

06-27-2004, 08:23 PM

Has anyone fitted saints and a SRS to their bighit? Any trouble fitting and how is the chainline? thanks

punkassean

06-28-2004, 12:37 PM

I haven't fitted that exact setup but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work fine...

std. width BB shell and front derail. compatible, etc...The chainline will be however you want it to be with the Saint BB being adjustable in that dept.

Jonas

06-28-2004, 01:39 PM

Darkangel,
I can't seem to PM you directly through this thread. If you email me at the office I can forward you a set up instruction sheet for your Big Hit. Call us directly at 207.772.3132 0r email me at jonasm@e13components.com
Thanks.

scofflaw23

07-13-2004, 10:18 PM

Can I bring this back one more time?

Anyone had any luck fitting an Evil DRS to Saint cranks? I'm going to use the Saint bashguard for the time being, but any advice for fitting (or not fitting) the DRS to my bike (NON-ISCG, RM Switch w/Saint cranks)?

Jonas

07-14-2004, 08:39 AM

scofflaw23

07-14-2004, 11:07 AM

You should be all set with the Switch. You won't need ISCG tabs to mount the DRS backplate. You'll also need to get the the DRS E-Type Backplate to get it to work - it can be bought aftermarket through your local dealer or through our online store at www.evilbikes.com I would, however, highly recommend that if you are going to run the DRS guide that you also run the E13 bashguard as well - it'll insure perfect guide set up and operation. The bashguard you'll have to modify a small amount to get to fit the crank. You'll just have to open up the width of the crank arm recess a little with a dremel or file - not a large chore. Let me know how things work out.
Thanks.

Just wondering, but am I going to need to get an E-Type Derailleur to mount on the new backplate also? I was trying to figure out what would be different enough about the E-Type backplate to make it work with a non E-type setup.
Oh, and I'll be getting a Supercharger, don't worry. It's just that the one I have is the wrong BCD.

Jonas

07-14-2004, 11:30 AM

No sweat, man. I believe that the RM Switch won't accept a regular seat tube clamp front der. In which case you'll need to get the E-Type front der to go with the E-Type backplate of the DRS. I believe you'd need an E-Type der anyhow, even if you weren't running a guide.

scofflaw23

07-14-2004, 08:52 PM

Nope, at least the 2004 ones use some sort of funky clamp that goes around a strut that supports the main dogbone of the suspension. Here's a photo:

Jonas

07-15-2004, 09:32 AM

Then you're all set, my friend. A regular DRS will work with that set up.

WonderBoy

09-23-2004, 05:24 PM

well...

would you be able to fit an Evil Guide and Saint Cranks on a Banshee Scream? Could you please post pictures of this setup?

:help:

Thanks a lot!!

pbr

02-07-2006, 02:01 PM

I'm wondering if anyone has tried installing Saint cranks on their 2006 P.3 with the e-thirteen guide-

I recently picked up an 06 P.3. I tried installing my favorite cranks(saints) and came across a few issues. First, I had to hacksaw the mounts for the small ring off, as it was hitting the guide. Then I spaced out the driveside bb shell with a 2mm spacer. The chain spacing looked good, except the spindle isn't long enough.

It appears my next step is to remove the stock spacer from behind the guide. The drawback here is that then I will have tire clearance issues on the boomerang. Anyone here have this set up?

Jonas

02-07-2006, 02:36 PM

Hey PBR,
For 2006 Specialized made the whole P.Series with an offset rear end. Though this has it's advantages it can be a little confining in regards to crankset choices for the time being. The offset rear end requires a 57mm chainline (which is what comes stock on the complete bike). The Saint crankset that fits the 68/73mm shell (needed for this frame) will essentially not work as it keeps the chainline at a non-adjustable 50mm. You can get it to work, but it is not recommended with this chainline as it will sacrifice the performance integrity of the chain retention system.

pbr

02-07-2006, 03:39 PM

Hey PBR,
The offset rear end requires a 57mm chainline (which is what comes stock on the complete bike). The Saint crankset that fits the 68/73mm shell (needed for this frame) will essentially not work as it keeps the chainline at a non-adjustable 50mm. You can get it to work, but it is not recommended with this chainline as it will sacrifice the performance integrity of the chain retention system.

Jonas,
Thanks for responding so quickly. I had a feeling this was the case. I actually reinstalled the stock cranks and bb last night. In fact, you answered my next thought, which would be to try the Saint crank with the longer spindle.

I guess my pretty Saint cranks will live in my parts box this year.:nopity:

Jonas

02-07-2006, 03:55 PM

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but maybe down the line they will make something that'll work. Don't quote me on that, though.

The 83mm shell version of the Diabolus will work when coulped with their "reducer kit". I'm not sure what they call the kit, but that's what I call it. It's basically a shorter internal BB cup sleeve that matches the 68/73 shell width and a bunch of additional spindle spacers to compensate for the externally exposed spindle. This setup will achieve the proper chainline needed.

Otherwise you're looking at an ISIS 73x128 spindle (or something in that near range...)