More Anti-French stuff...

[stosh]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/13/sprj.irq.congress.france/index.html

[JMAC]

OMG that person is the biggest focking idiot. The friggen US wouldn't exsite if it wasn't for the French who actaully did the real fighting againts the British the French gave the statue of Liberty as a present to the US what the hell is the problem with the fing americans your stupid war is the most retarded idea ever and i'm happy that atleast france has enough pride to stand up against you morons.:angry: :angry: :angry: :devil:
I'm don't hate all americans just i don't like the ones that think they should make a war out of nothing:devil:

[Jozz]

oh oh.......... :nono:

JMAC, maybe you should edit your post before its too late...

[I Are Baboon]

Hey stosh, Political Debate Forum. (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=67)

;)

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by JMAC
OMG that person is the biggest focking idiot. The friggen US wouldn't exsite if it wasn't for the French who actaully did the real fighting againts the British the French gave the statue of Liberty as a present to the US what the hell is the problem with the fing americans your stupid war is the most retarded idea ever and i'm happy that atleast france has enough pride to stand up against you morons.:angry: :angry: :angry: :devil:
I'm don't hate all americans just i don't like the ones that think they should make a war out of nothing:devil:

Tell us how you really feel. :monkey:

[FlipSide]

Those buried in France should have the right to remain out of this new war instead of serving as political tools IMO.

If the americans have any respect for their soldiers who died there in WW2 in the name of freedom or whatever reason to fight Dubya likes to give these days, they should just leave them resting in peace. The already died in a war, they should not be disturbed for another one.

Get a f'ing grip!

[Tenchiro]

If anything this should teach the rest of the world never to disagree with America, or else they face our wrath. :rolleyes:



now where did I leave that bandwagon patriot gif...

[FlipSide]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
this should teach the rest of the world never to disagree with America, or else they face our wrath. :rolleyes:



:rolleyes:

Sounds like a great plan!

:dead:

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by JMAC
OMG that person is the biggest focking idiot. The friggen US wouldn't exsite if it wasn't for the French who actaully did the real fighting againts the British the French gave the statue of Liberty as a present to the US what the hell is the problem with the fing americans your stupid war is the most retarded idea ever and i'm happy that atleast france has enough pride to stand up against you morons.:angry: :angry: :angry: :devil:
I'm don't hate all americans just i don't like the ones that think they should make a war out of nothing:devil:

Come on JMAC, you know as well as everyone else that all countries involved are serving their own agenda. France is staying out of it for economic reasons, not some grand stance.

[stosh]

Originally posted by I Are Baboon
Hey stosh,

;)

Hey baboon




PS it wasn't up for debate.Political debate forum is here (http://forums.off-topic.net/images/smilies/gives.gif)

[Booker]

Originally posted by FlipSide
Those buried in France should have the right to remain out of this new war instead of serving as political tools IMO.

If the americans have any respect for their soldiers who died there in WW2 in the name of freedom or whatever reason to fight Dubya likes to give these days, they should just leave them resting in peace. The already died in a war, they should not be disturbed for another one.

Get a f'ing grip!

I agree. These are dead heros not house plants. You don't just dig them up and take them with you when you have an argument. They died horrible deaths, at least let them rest in peace.

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by LordOpie
Come on JMAC, you know as well as everyone else that all countries involved are serving their own agenda. France is staying out of it for economic reasons, not some grand stance.


...Chirac has some sort of enlightened stance on war and suffering. The French were all about war until they were no longer the big kid on the block. Look at their history and stop wishing that you were a REAL Frenchman. France has economic incentive to keep Saddam in power. Chirac's not worried about Saddam supplying terrorists because they aren't threatening the Arc de Triumph, the Louvre or the Eiffel Tower! Almost nobody really LIKES the idea of war, but we don't want Saddam to supply some fringe Muslim extremist with a biological or chemical agent to be used on our soil...or yours. 9/11 has instilled in many Americans a sense of urgency when it comes to dealing with terrorists that is not yet felt in lands AS OF YET unscarred. Everybody closes their shades on a mugging until the violence comes home to roost!

:rolleyes:

[-BB-]

Originally posted by Booker
I agree. These are dead heros not house plants. You don't just dig them up and take them with you when you have an argument. They died horrible deaths, at least let them rest in peace.

Wait a second... the US government is NOT asking for all these people to be returned. INDIVIDUALS, related to the fallen soldiers are asking for their return and the US govt. is assisting them. Is that not their (family's) right?

[eric strt6]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
If anything this should teach the rest of the world never to disagree with America, or else they face our wrath. :rolleyes:



now where did I leave that bandwagon patriot gif...

this one?

[JMAC]

HEHEHE well atleast i got people talking anyways ya i ranted off SORRY:D but still no one should say something so stupid as that congress women.

[Booker]

Originally posted by -BB-
Wait a second... the US government is NOT asking for all these people to be returned. INDIVIDUALS, related to the fallen soldiers are asking for their return and the US govt. is assisting them. Is that not their (family's) right?

I understand that the government has no hand in this. I was directing my statement at the family members of the fallen. I also understand this is their right, i just don't agree with their choice. (even though it is THEIR choice)

[Serial Midget]

French Adventures in the Ivory Coast, on a more petite scale... of course. ;)

Ivory Coast Women Condemn French (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2720753.stm)

Anti-French Riots In Ivory Coast (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/01/26/ivory.riots/)

UN and US back French intervention in Ivory Coast (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/feb2003/ivor-f12.shtml)

French Conflicts Multiply in Africa (Decades of Exploitation) (http://www.dogonvillage.com/wwwboard/messages/1046.html)

Do some simple research and discover just how enlightened French foreign policy really is.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Damn True]

Ah yes those peace loving French:

http://archive.greenpeace.org/~comms/rw/pkbomb.html


...and then there's....

2. Description
The French colony of Mururoa Atoll is located in the southeast corner of the Taumotu archipelago in French Polynesia. France began atmospheric nuclear testing in the colony in 1966 because Algeria had ceased being a nuclear test site option when the Algeria gained independence in 1962. Since 1974, France has conducted underground tests due to guidelines of the Non-Prolifer- ation Treaty (NPT).(1) There have been 41 atmospheric tests and 138 underground tests from 1966 to 1992.(2) Former French president, Francois Mitterand, ceased nuclear testing in 1992 due to NPT obligations. To international disbelief, Jacques Chirac announced in June 1995 that France would lift the three year moratorium and resume underground nuclear tests in the South Pacific. Despite the end of the Cold War and decreased security tensions, France conducted eight tests between September 1995 and May 1996. Six of the eight tests were completed on the following dates: Sept. 5, 1993; Oct. 1, 1995; Oct. 27, 1995; Nov. 22, 1995; Dec.27, 1995 and Jan. 27, 1996.(3)(4)
France justified the tests as models to help create computer simulations that would eradicate future testing. The results of France resuming nuclear testing have environmental and political implications. The intersection of political and environmental issues produces cultural, social, and economic results that are seen through peace protests, independence movements, and trade boycotts.

A. Environmental Issues

The exact effects of the French nuclear tests will not be known for years. The French government is very secretive about releasing information about environmental hazards associated with nuclear testing. There is lack of statistical research to assess the risks to the people in the South Pacific. Due to pressure from the European Union and the scientific community, France has conducted several tests to assess the health and environmental risks associated with the nuclear tests. Working with the French government, Jacques Cousteau and his team explored damage to the Mururoa atoll for six days in June 1987. Cousteau, however, had limited time, resources, and access.(5) In February of 1996, France invited the United Nations organization, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), to officially release all nuclear security data. This is a non-governmental scientific study where the results have yet to be seen. In 1994, the IAEA set a resolution for all states to fulfill their international responsibilities to ensure that nuclear testing sites have no detrimental health or environmental impacts.

France's nuclear testing in the South Pacific, especially in Mururoa, has inflicted long-term environmental damage to the geographical structuring of the atoll. Radiation has seeped into the fissures of the atoll. A French map from 1980 shows that years of nuclear testing have cracked the atoll.(6) Several scientists have concluded that previous nuclear testing caused fissuring in by destroying the coral and the altering land plates. Dr. Murray Matthews from the National Radiation Lab in New Zealand discusses the spread of radioactive material from wind storms and rains.(7) Pierre Vincent, a vulcanologist, stated "that further tests could rupture the rock and release radionuclides from underground cavities."(8) The long-term effects increase the risk of landslides and tsunami, seismic tidal waves. Future shocks from underground explosions could induce a tsunami that could submerge all of Polynesia. Radioactive leaks also increase the risks to aquatic life in the surrounding area.

The nuclear tests increase the potential risks to humans and aquatic life. The French government insists that the intense heat from the blasts vitrifies the rock and traps all radioactivity before it can escape, but when there are leaks, the amount of radioactive elements (cesium, tritium, and iodine) vanish quickly before inflicting harm on the environment.(10) Excessive amounts of iodine 131, however, can cause thyroid disease and cancer. Tests conducted on survivors from Hiroshima and Nagasaki show that amounts registered at 500 miliSievert (mS) can cause cancer and birth defects. It is not clear, however, how much the islanders at French Polynesia have been exposed. Labs from New Zealand and Australia estimate that they have received about one mS.(11) Furthermore, little plutonium from past tests gets into the food chain because it can inflict harm on human and aquatic life in the future.

B. Political Issues

There are also political implications involved with the French nuclear testing. It is a political status symbol for France to possess nuclear capabilities as well as a symbol of colonialism. The nuclear testing is in "complete contradiction to France as the cradle of democracy and human rights."(12) French Polynesia is economically dependent on France, therefore, helpless in resisting nuclear tests. The French government has lost a considerable amount of political legitimacy in the colonies and at the international level. For example, France was nearly brought before the European Court of Justice for possible violation of the 1957 Euratom Treaty. Under the treaty, France is obligated to provide data to the European Commission to ensure that safety guidelines are met. In July 1995, France gave information, but has refused to provide further information in October, 1995. A case was not established because France halted tests in February 1996. France's decision to resume testing also jeopardizes international cooperation to establish a nuclear weapons-free world. Chirac's decision undermines Frances' commitment to the NPT and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty in May 1996. Chirac notes that a "country that wants to live in security should not lower its guard...in a very uncertain world."(13) Others disagree. Frances's actions "remind us of the threats and horrors that haunted the collective imagination during the Cold War years" as stated by Brazil's Foreign Minister Luiz Felipe Lampreia on September 25, 1995.(14)

C. The Intersection: Cultural, Social, and Economic issues
In 1985, French commandos blew up the Greenpeace ship, Rainbow Warrior that had mounted nuclear protests on the sea. Again, on September 1, the French navy seized the Greenpeace ship, Rainbow Warrior II and MV Greenpeace after the vessel had crossed the 12-mile exclusion zone that the French had declared around the Mururoa test site. Greenpeace is suing the French government for violation of civil rights and kidnapping and monetary reparations.(15) In addition, several Polynesia citizens have filed suits against the French government for violation of human rights.(16) The National Union of Scientists publicly condemned the French government and circulated petitions demanding that the tests not be resumed.(17)

Anti-nuclear protests occurred around the world. In Vancouver, nine protesters chained themselves to the French consulate. In Ottawa, demonstrators established the Cafe Bombe, outside the French Embassy, a mock restaurant serving bomb-shaped cakes with sparklers. On Bastille Day, July 14, protesters in New Zealand dumped manure outside the French ambassador's residence, French Polynesians burned a French flag at a rally in Sydney, and protesters held a candlelight vigil in Fiji.(18) At the beginning of the nuclear testing in September, riots and protest occurred in Tahiti, the capital of French Polynesia. Marchers wore T-shirts and banners demanding independence in light of the nuclear testing.

Economic boycotts have symbolized international discontent with France's actions. Trade boycotts are most prominent in New Zealand, Australia, and Japan. Restaurants around the world have boycotted French products. For example, Beaujolais wine is a food product that has been particularly targeted. DeBoeuf Beaujolais had 44,000 cases valued as $270,000 canceled.(19) In 1995, tourism declined by 8% or by 15,000 fewer tourists while Club Med's resorts lost $1 million in profits.(20) The French air craft manufacturer Dassault lost a contract worth $370 million because they were banned from bidding in Australia. New Zealand also has suspended a contract pertaining to French surface-to-air missiles.(21)

3. Duration: COMPLETE (1966-96)
The tests were officially stopped in February 1996 and international condemnations ended when France signed the NPT on May 1, 1996
The time frame of French nuclear testing in the South Pacific has lasted periodically about 28 years. France began nuclear testing in Mururoa Atoll in 1966. These tests were atmospheric until 1974 when they were underground because of the NPT. Former French president, Francois Mitterand ceased testing in 1992 due to international non-proliferation obligations. On September 1995, under President Jacques Chirac, France resumed and extended nuclear testing in French Polynesia. Six of the eight tests were completed up until February 1996. France continued to sign the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty in May 1996.

France already has strong economic ties with Iraq in the oil and armament industries, perhaps they are looking to expand into the Nuclear?

[the BIG cheese]

Originally posted by JMAC
OMG that person is the biggest focking idiot. The friggen US wouldn't exsite if it wasn't for the French who actaully did the real fighting againts the British the French gave the statue of Liberty as a present to the US what the hell is the problem with the fing americans your stupid war is the most retarded idea ever and i'm happy that atleast france has enough pride to stand up against you morons.:angry: :angry: :angry: :devil:
I'm don't hate all americans just i don't like the ones that think they should make a war out of nothing:devil:

thank god there are french people. your right, we NEED them and are forever in debt to their greatness.........

SHUT-UP:nuts:

[JMAC]

Originally posted by the BIG cheese
thank god there are french people. your right, we NEED them and are forever in debt to their greatness.........

SHUT-UP:nuts:

Well at least the french don't resort to kicking people in the nuts.;)

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by Jozz
oh oh.......... :nono:

JMAC, maybe you should edit your post before its too late... Well I am so greatful that France defeted all the enemies in WWI & WW2 to save the Americans:rolleyes: Guess you're right, they have stuck their necks out for our sorry asses from day one:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :angry: Please learn some history, and please hope that you never go to war and ask tyhe US for help. I know France will be there for yah:rolleyes: :angry:

[corytx]

Well I am so greatful that France defeted all the enemies in WWI & WW2 to save the Americans Guess you're right, they have stuck their necks out for our sorry asses from day one Please learn some history, and please hope that you never go to war and ask tyhe US for help. I know France will be there for yah

no joke :rolleyes: . I like the comment that Leno made about france and germany not backing the U.S., "if it wasn't for the US, france would be speaking german".

Isn't france suppose to have a large al queda network? I think that and economic reasons are why they are staying out, not to be "civil". If france helped the US you can bet that there would be a huge increase in terroristic actions.

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by JMAC
Well at least the french don't resort to kicking people in the nuts.;)

Quite correct; they resort to sucking people's nuts to fluff 'em up before bending over and biting the pillow. :p

[the BIG cheese]

Originally posted by JMAC
Well at least the french don't resort to kicking people in the nuts.;)

what nuts?

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by eric strt6
this one?

LOL, that's the one.

[NRSracer]

why are there trees lining the streets of france?





so the germans can march in the shade. :D

[Arutha]

I was in Paris for 4 days once. It was painful. The only good thing about it was leaving. Oh and my wife understanding why I don't like the French. Now she doesn't like them either. :D

[Stellite]

The following Letter to the Editor was copied from the Greensboro News &
Record:

It's "déjà vu" all over again. Think about this: It's the late 1930s. A
dictator, with a funny mustache, of a country that had been defeated in a
war
the previous decade, is now breaking the terms of the war ending treaty.
He
has armed his country beyond that needed solely for defense and is eyeing
expansion of its borders but he has convinced the French that he is for
peace
and has no intentions of further aggression. Britain and its ally, the
United States, don't believe him, but the French view prevails. In the
meantime, this dictator is forming ethnic cleansing by gassing and killing
a
minority sect in his country. The French do nothing. Their country is
overrun and now the British and the Americans have to come to their rescue
in
spite of heavy antiwar sentiment in America.
Fast-forward about 60 years. A dictator, with a funny mustache, of a
country
that was defeated in a war the previous decade, is now breaking all the
terms
of the war ending treaty. He has used gas on an undesirable sect in his
country. He denies he has arms of mass destruction. The French believe
him.
Germany agrees. The Americans and their ally Great Britain do not. They
want to remove this threat before history repeats itself. Again, there is
heavy antiwar sentiment in America. Déjà vu.
Perhaps American and British leaders again will rid the world of this
menace,
just as Roosevelt and Churchill did 60 years ago.


Mideast Mystery?????
>
> > > > > Everyone seems to be wondering why
> Muslim terrorists are so
> > > > > quick to commit suicide. Lets see
> now... No beer, No booze, No
> > > > > bars, No television, No cheerleaders,
> No baseball, No football, No
> > > > > basketball, No hockey, and No tailgate
> parties No pork BBQ, No
> > > > > hot-dogs, No burgers, No lobster, No
> shellfish, or even frozen fish
> > > > > sticks. Rags For clothes, towels for
> hats. Constant wailing from the
> > > > > guy next door because he is sick and
> there are no doctors. 24 hour
> > > > > wailing from a guy in the tower. You
> can't shave. Your wife can't
> > > > > shave. You can't shower to wash off the
> smell of donkey cooked over
> > > > > burning camel dung. The women have to
> wear baggy dresses, and veils
> > > > > at all times. Your bride is picked by
> someone else. She smells just
> > like
> > > > > your donkey, but your donkey has a
> better disposition. Then they
> tell
> > > > > you it all gets better when you die. NO
> MYSTERY HERE
> > >

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
Quite correct; they resort to sucking people's nuts to fluff 'em up before bending over and biting the pillow. :p

:think: You know way too much about the porn industry... former or current employment or just a hobby for you? :D :D :D









Hey! It's a joke... :evil:

[Stellite]

Thoughts about the French:
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
"France announced today that it plans to ban fireworks at Euro Disney.
Reason: Last night's display caused soldiers at a nearby French army garrison to surrender."
> >*******************
If you want to get France involved in a war with Iraq, you must first convince them that Saddam is hiding fields of truffles.
Comedian on the Tonight Show
> >******************
Q: What do you call a group of 100,000 Frenchman with their hands in the air?
A: The army.
> >******************
Q: How many French men does it take to defend Paris?
A: Nobody knows.
> >******************
Q: Why does the new French Navy have glass-bottom boats?
A: So they can see the old French Navy....
> >******************
Q: How can you recognize a French veteran?
A: Sunburned armpits.
> >******************
Q: Did you hear about the old French rifles for sale on Ebay?
A: Dropped once, never fired.
> >******************
Q: Where do you find 60 million French jokes?
A: France.
> >******************
Q: What's the difference between a Wonderbra and the French World Cup squad?
A: A Wonderbra has support and a cup.
> >******************
Q: Why do the French eat snails?
A: Faster reactions.
> >******************
Jay Leno says it's no surprise the French won't help us get Saddam Hussein out of Iraq. They didn't help us get Germany out of France. Still,we need their help. They can teach the Iraqis to surrender.
> >******************
Jay Leno, a few summers ago:
"France is now being hit by an extreme heat-wave, so the French
government is advising its citizens to "stay indoors and do nothing". You know, like in WWII...."
> >******************
In 1966 upon being told that Charles DeGaulle had taken France out of NATO and that all U.S. Troops must be evacuated off of French soil, Dean Rusk and Charles DeGaulle had a meeting. At end of the meeting Dean asked DeGaulle if his order to remove all U.S. troops from French soil also included the 60,000+ soldier buried in France from World War I and II.
DeGaulle didn't answer.
> >******************
Give the French a break. They did win the French Revolutionary War
..... but they were fighting the French.

FOR SALE: RIFLE, Never used, dropped only once

[Moogie]

idiots. im half belgian, and that stuff makes me sick. thats ludicrous that they would even think of that. shows you what this country is coming too. arg.

[patconnole]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Well I am so greatful that France defeted all the enemies in WWI & WW2 to save the Americans:rolleyes: Guess you're right, they have stuck their necks out for our sorry asses from day one:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :angry: Please learn some history, and please hope that you never go to war and ask tyhe US for help. I know France will be there for yah:rolleyes: :angry:

I can't stand this kind of talk--- Actually taking some kind of credit, supposedly passed down through the lineage for entering WW2? Yeah, let's keep acting like it was some action we personally took the other day..... :rolleyes:

[Stellite]

Originally posted by Moogie
idiots. im half belgian, and that stuff makes me sick. thats ludicrous that they would even think of that. shows you what this country is coming too. arg.

From your sig, I thought that you where a Ferengi:D

[Flyin' Polack]

The whole world wanted to leave hitler alone too!
All af europe would be speaking German now if we wouldn't have done something then!
War is not a good thing, but sometimes war is necessary to save additional lives.
There are 38,000 AMERICAN graves on the hill overlooking Omaha Beach, Normandy FRANCE.
These AMERICANS gave up their lives so that the french could be set free!
Now, they turn on us? How soon they forget!
Now if we don't do something, and we get attacked AGAIN.
The american citizens will once again blame our own government for not doing something.
Do you like freedom of speech? freedom to Vote? Freedom to travel where you want, when you want?
That's what I support!
Those rag toting pukes view US as the enemy. Not the army, not the president. US! You and me and our children.
And they teach that way of thinking to their kids IN SCHOOL!
THEY have declared Jihad on us!
Do you know what that means? It means that ANYONE of any Christian religion is a target. Anyone!
I didn't / wouldn't vote for Bush but he's got a job to do. Let him do it!
Not to mention, What about our troops?
Don't show them that they fight for nothing! They fight for us! They die for us!
All so we can sit here in our nice warm houses on a saturday and take freedom for granted.
Well, I don't.
I believe in America.
I buy American.
I'd lay down my life in a heart beat to protect my child and the freedom she deserves.
Any society that puts religion before their own children's well being should be put down.
Want to sign a pettition?
How's this: Make a pettition to Saddam saying. We want peace, We don't want the AMERICAN War machine to trample you're cities, killing you're children.
But it CAN AND WILL!
So, cooperate, and live in peace!
They started it, now we finish it.
Oh and another thing...
French fries are now called Frog fries.
Order them in a resturaunt and see what happens. LOL
PS. I am of french descent. Sorry, it's my greatest shame.

[zibbler]

Originally posted by seanaza
The whole world wanted to leave hitler alone too!
All af europe would be speaking German now if we wouldn't have done something then!
War is not a good thing, but sometimes war is necessary to save additional lives.
There are 38,000 AMERICAN graves on the hill overlooking Omaha Beach, Normandy FRANCE.
These AMERICANS gave up their lives so that the french could be set free!
Now, they turn on us? How soon they forget!
Now if we don't do something, and we get attacked AGAIN.
The american citizens will once again blame our own government for not doing something.
Do you like freedom of speech? freedom to Vote? Freedom to travel where you want, when you want?
That's what I support!
Those rag toting pukes view US as the enemy. Not the army, not the president. US! You and me and our children.
And they teach that way of thinking to their kids IN SCHOOL!
THEY have declared Jihad on us!
Do you know what that means? It means that ANYONE of any Christian religion is a target. Anyone!
I didn't / wouldn't vote for Bush but he's got a job to do. Let him do it!
Not to mention, What about our troops?
Don't show them that they fight for nothing! They fight for us! They die for us!
All so we can sit here in our nice warm houses on a saturday and take freedom for granted.
Well, I don't.
I believe in America.
I buy American.
I'd lay down my life in a heart beat to protect my child and the freedom she deserves.
Any society that puts religion before their own children's well being should be put down.
Want to sign a pettition?
How's this: Make a pettition to Saddam saying. We want peace, We don't want the AMERICAN War machine to trample you're cities, killing you're children.
But it CAN AND WILL!
So, cooperate, and live in peace!
They started it, now we finish it.
Oh and another thing...
French fries are now called Frog fries.
Order them in a resturaunt and see what happens. LOL
PS. I am of french descent. Sorry, it's my greatest shame.

Well said. It amazes me how many people think Bush wants to go to war because of his ego or something. That's BS. Like him or not, he is our leader and is doing what he has to do to defend our country. How quickly everyone forgets what actually happened on 9/11/01. Islam declared war on US! We MUST defend ourselves. If we don't, then the whole world will be wearing turbans and bowing to allah one day.

[goosemagoo]

Check out this ebay sale

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2515346349&category=364

[SwisSlesS]

lol. Never fired a single bullet.

[JMAC]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Well I am so greatful that France defeted all the enemies in WWI & WW2 to save the Americans:rolleyes: Guess you're right, they have stuck their necks out for our sorry asses from day one:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :angry: Please learn some history, and please hope that you never go to war and ask tyhe US for help. I know France will be there for yah:rolleyes: :angry:

Maybe you should learn some history in WW2 the US did shlt for France it wasn't until they were attacked in Pearl Harbour by Japan that they did anything. The US didn't go into ww2 to help it was to save their sorry asses.

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by JMAC
Maybe you should learn some history in WW2 the US did shlt for France it wasn't until they were attacked in Pearl Harbour by Japan that they did anything. The US didn't go into ww2 to help it was to save their sorry asses. You're right, the US sucks big time. Please make sure you don't purchase any goods from our sorry ass country, especially bike parts. From what I understand, France makes the best bike parts in the world hands down, along with the best cars and I don't want to forget all the other fine products in the world they make. Do youself a favor and don't comunicate with our pathetic country.

[Drunken_Ninja]

Moving dead bodies might bring justice to WW2 for some.

Bringing the soldiers home would certainly change history after all these years.

Overall the topic is a little bit morbid and could of come up at another time. Perhaps it should.

France has a history for being a real thorn in the side of the rest of the world. I've almost gotten used to their outrageous foreign policies. Not surprised by their stance anymore.

Just sick of arguing with french people for no good reason.

[ChrisRobin]

Why not 'remind' the French about WW2? The allies did save their asses.

Hey JMAC, don't forget President Degaulle (who was a general in the French Army during the war) tried to stir up political sh!t here in Montreal a few years after WW2. Hows that for gratitude when there are a lot of dead Canadian troops buried over there too. I say, scew 'em.

[Stellite]

Originally posted by JMAC
Maybe you should learn some history in WW2 the US did shlt for France it wasn't until they were attacked in Pearl Harbour by Japan that they did anything. The US didn't go into ww2 to help it was to save their sorry asses.

Your kidding, right? If you believe the crap you just stated, then you live in a bubble. France sat on it's azz while hitler was cruising eastern europe gobbling up countries. France acted when it was to late, which appears to be a common french trait. The US was attacked in Pearl Harbor and entered the war against both Japan and Germany which had become allies. If it wasn't for the US's industrial might, europe would have gone to Goosestepping.

If it wasn't for the US, Russia would have lost it's shorts against Germany. WE supplied them with vast amounts of weapons to fight the Germans.

If it wasn't for Americans, the Chinese might be eating Sushi.

But there is something to thank the french for. I'd like to thank the French for starting the VIetnam war, getting the US involved and then running away to leave the US holding the Bag. Running away sound familiar?

I'd also like to thank the french for the weight loss program, big plates and tiny meals.

So learn your history dude. Your right though we shouldn't have done shlt for the french in wwII, since they wanted to be the germans beeaach.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by JMAC
Maybe you should learn some history in WW2 the US did shlt for France it wasn't until they were attacked in Pearl Harbour by Japan that they did anything. The US didn't go into ww2 to help it was to save their sorry asses.

In WWII it wasn't our sorry asses on the line, it was continental Europe that was having difficulty with that Hitler thing. We were friends with England to a limited extent but we were not allies in the way we are today with NATO and the United Nations. If we had devoted 100% of our efforts to fighting the Japanese and assisting Australia, the Pacific theatre would have closed much sooner. WWII and world politics of the day were no less complicated then they are today - the war wasn't just about Hitler.

The war with Japan was not totally related to the issues that led up to the war in Europe. Germany was not properly contained after it's defeat in WWI.

JMAC - you seem like a smart kid but on this issue I think you have much to learn.

[Moogie]

Originally posted by Stellite
From your sig, I thought that you where a Ferengi:D



Ferengi :think: hmmm. never heard that before. good times.

[patconnole]

Originally posted by zibbler
Well said. It amazes me how many people think Bush wants to go to war because of his ego or something. That's BS. Like him or not, he is our leader and is doing what he has to do to defend our country. How quickly everyone forgets what actually happened on 9/11/01. Islam declared war on US! We MUST defend ourselves. If we don't, then the whole world will be wearing turbans and bowing to allah one day.


"Islam declared war on the US!"???????!!!!! Are you trying to start a holy war, talking like that? What's the point of making such generalizations--- especially in a time like this when identifying the enemy is so freakin hard. Is that your fear? That we'll all be wearing turbans one day? Worshipping a false god for you?!


It's this attitude, on both sides of the line, that creates "jihads," holy wars, etc...... We're gonna have raise ourselves above that mindset for things to get better.



"Your shedding a lot of light on this situation. Unfortunately, the light's coming from the cross you just set on fire."

[zibbler]

Originally posted by patconnole
"Islam declared war on the US!"???????!!!!! Are you trying to start a holy war, talking like that? What's the point of making such generalizations--- especially in a time like this when identifying the enemy is so freakin hard. Is that your fear? That we'll all be wearing turbans one day? Worshipping a false god for you?!


It's this attitude, on both sides of the line, that creates "jihads," holy wars, etc...... We're gonna have raise ourselves above that mindset for things to get better.



"Your shedding a lot of light on this situation. Unfortunately, the light's coming from the cross you just set on fire."

Oh please! Get a clue. If These terrorist fanatics had there way they would bury every free society on earth. That includes the U.S, England, Germany, France, etc. So mister think-you-have-it-all-figured-out. What do you suggest we do then? Maybe we should disarm, send Saddam a nice bouquet of flowers and chat over some tea with him? Get real!

[patconnole]

Originally posted by zibbler
Oh please! Get a clue. If These terrorist fanatics had there way they would bury every free society on earth. That includes the U.S, England, Germany, France, etc. So mister think-you-have-it-all-figured-out. What do you suggest we do then? Maybe we should disarm, send Saddam a nice bouquet of flowers and chat over some tea with him? Get real!


Where did sending flowers to Saddam come from? What does that have to with anything?

I thought it was lame you said ISLAM is the enemy. Now you call them "These terorist fanatics". Do you still mean Islam, in general? I think you do-- And it reminds of the religious zeal that started this problem in the first place.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by patconnole
Where did sending flowers to Saddam come from? What does that have to with anything?

I thought it was lame you said ISLAM is the enemy. Now you call them "These terorist fanatics". Do you still mean Islam, in general? I think you do-- And it reminds of the religious zeal that started this problem in the first place.

I blame the white Baptists - they can't sing and they can't dance. :monkey:

What Zibbler meant to say was certain religeous leaders and/or extremists of the Islamic faith have called for a Holy War against the United States due to our support of Isreal. She just thought it would be shorter to type Islam because she is Canadian. :D

[Silver]

Well, if you can point out how many of these terrorists on 9/11, or the USS Cole, or the embassy bombings in Africa were Iraqi, I would appreciate it.

You want to really fight terrorism? Start looking at Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Claiming that Saddam was involved in the September 11 attacks at this point is pretty disingenuous. Hell, even Colin Powell can't make a strong case for it.

Btw: It's not just the French that oppose a war in Iraq at this point. Although I agree that the French government are a bunch of assholes who have had arrogant and harmful foreign policies for a long time, that doesn't mean I bear the French people any ill will. The whole, "You'd be speaking German" thing strikes me as childish and jingoistic. How long are they supposed to suck our dicks before we let them off the hook anyways?

[patconnole]

Originally posted by Silver
How long are they supposed to suck our dicks before we let them off the hook anyways?

For as long as the grandchildren of Americans who died in WW2 think they can take credit for what their grandparents did.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Silver
How long are they supposed to suck our dicks before we let them off the hook anyways?

There ain't nothing wrong with a good blow job. :D

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by Stellite
Your kidding, right? If you believe the crap you just stated, then you live in a bubble. France sat on it's azz while hitler was cruising eastern europe gobbling up countries. France acted when it was to late, which appears to be a common french trait. The US was attacked in Pearl Harbor and entered the war against both Japan and Germany which had become allies. If it wasn't for the US's industrial might, europe would have gone to Goosestepping.

If it wasn't for the US, Russia would have lost it's shorts against Germany. WE supplied them with vast amounts of weapons to fight the Germans.

If it wasn't for Americans, the Chinese might be eating Sushi.

But there is something to thank the french for. I'd like to thank the French for starting the VIetnam war, getting the US involved and then running away to leave the US holding the Bag. Running away sound familiar?

I'd also like to thank the french for the weight loss program, big plates and tiny meals.

So learn your history dude. Your right though we shouldn't have done shlt for the french in wwII, since they wanted to be the germans beeaach.


...that our aspiring Frenchie has heard of "Liberty Ships" either. It was not enough that we were supplying them with the guns, ammunition, airplanes and countless TONS of war material to fight back with on an armada of ships built solely for that purpose. We had to go and do the fighting, too, because God forbid a Frenchman get hurt defending his own country from invasion! Even the French realize that their nation is not worth shedding a drop of blood to save! The French are like a drunk driver who sues his rescuer for bumping his head while in the process of dragging his drunk ass from a burning car. :rolleyes:

[Stellite]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
...that our aspiring Frenchie has heard of "Liberty Ships" either. It was not enough that we were supplying them with the guns, ammunition, airplanes and countless TONS of war material to fight back with on an armada of ships built solely for that purpose. We had to go and do the fighting, too, because God forbid a Frenchman get hurt defending his own country from invasion! Even the French realize that their nation is not worth shedding a drop of blood to save! The French are like a drunk driver who sues his rescuer for bumping his head while in the process of dragging his drunk ass from a burning car. :rolleyes:

Good one and true.

oh and lets not forget that the french were using WWI tactics in the severely short time that they stood facing Germany in WWII. They made a static artillery line facing Germany and waited for the Germans to come head on, but instead the Germans went around and came from behind, hehe. That one is a classic military blunder. I guess that's what happens when a herbivore takes on a predator, he gets flanked and outsmarted.

Oh and I don't think that Bush really cares what the UN thinks and votes on. My guess is that he wanted a vote to see where our, so called "friends" stood. We now know. I don't think they will be getting any of our money any time soon, anymore.

[Darryl]

Originally posted by JMAC
OMG that person is the biggest focking idiot. The friggen US wouldn't exsite if it wasn't for the French who actaully did the real fighting againts the British the French gave the statue of Liberty as a present to the US what the hell is the problem with the fing americans your stupid war is the most retarded idea ever and i'm happy that atleast france has enough pride to stand up against you morons.:angry: :angry: :angry: :devil:
I'm don't hate all americans just i don't like the ones that think they should make a war out of nothing:devil:

He hates us so much he failed to grasp the language and grammer.

[Silver]

Je ne parle pas Francais.

Voulez-vous Anglais?

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Silver
Je ne parle pas Francais.

Voulez-vous Anglais?

What? I won't eat in restaurants if I can't read their menu. :monkey:

[Silver]

Serial Midget..what happened to your post?

[ibismojo]

Why does everyone keep saying that the French is lucky to be around because the US intervened and saved them from being occupied by the Nazi's. US help was inevitable, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, that's what got us into the war. It just so happened that France was the launching point of pushing back Hitler's forces. Could have been Belgium...or Spain...or Portugal. But France was strategically the best place to start. Honestly, I bet the English would have had a hard time keeping Hitler's army and Mussolini's forces at bay if England was where France was. The Germans were fast and precise and packed a lot of punch which no one expected. Very different from trench warfare.

And why does everyone pick on the French? Do the Russians pick on the Poles cause they went in and liberated them from Hitler? Probably not. Or how about the Swiss, who supposedly stayed neutral? Oh the French should be thankful for the US in WWII...oh the US should be thankful for France during the revolutionary war. Perhaps under all this, US helped an old, forgotten friend when the US needed help. It is unfortunate that France was overrun by Germanty, twice. But that's history. What are you gonna do? There's probably some stuff in-store for the US. Pearl Harbor, 9-11 anyone? Someone will always be pissed at someone and we'll just have to deal with it. There is no "Final Solution" much like what Hitler would have liked to believe.

[Rustmouse]

French Military History in a Nutshell (http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rustmouse/public/FrMilHist.htm)

this explains everything....

by the way, speaking of ungrateful french....

less than a year after WWII, French farmers were driving their sheep out onto the airfields so american planes couldn't land, would run out of fuel and crash.

[ibismojo]

Originally posted by Rustmouse
French Military History in a Nutshell (http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rustmouse/public/FrMilHist.htm)

this explains everything....


heh, that's been going around the forums for a while now :)

[Stellite]

Originally posted by ibismojo


Or how about the Swiss, who supposedly stayed neutral?

yes but the swiss had everyones money and make fine watches, we need to leave them alone:)

[zibbler]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
I blame the white Baptists - they can't sing and they can't dance. :monkey:

What Zibbler meant to say was certain religeous leaders and/or extremists of the Islamic faith have called for a Holy War against the United States due to our support of Isreal. She just thought it would be shorter to type Islam because she is Canadian. :D

Thanks Midget. I guess it was blatantly obvious to all but one. :rolleyes:

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by Stellite
yes but the swiss had everyones money and make fine watches, we need to leave them alone:) And their knives kick butt:D

[SwisSlesS]

Never. Swiss are ill. :D :p

[Stellite]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
And their knives kick butt:D

Solingen steel is good, but as a knife collector there is some stuff which is light years ahead. If you are into knives let me know. But swiss steel has always been good as is their quality of manufacture.

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by Stellite
Solingen steel is good, but as a knife collector there is some stuff which is light years ahead. If you are into knives let me know. But swiss steel has always been good as is their quality of manufacture. Actually I don't care about knives, just as a kid I always wanted a real cool Swiss Army knife, you know the one with the tweezers and toothpick;) , that was 30 years ago though:( And since someone brought up watches I'd throw in knives. However my favorite cheese is swiss:D

[Rustmouse]

http://members.aol.com/rustmouse/public/samurai2.jpg

we probably should be paying attention to someone more dangerous than the french

[Stellite]

here is one

[Stellite]

here is another one

[Stellite]

http://www.stressbuster1.com/

is where i got the pics.

[steelewheels]

Originally posted by zibbler
Well said. It amazes me how many people think Bush wants to go to war because of his ego or something. That's BS. Like him or not, he is our leader and is doing what he has to do to defend our country. How quickly everyone forgets what actually happened on 9/11/01. Islam declared war on US! We MUST defend ourselves. If we don't, then the whole world will be wearing turbans and bowing to allah one day.

thats the most racist thing i have ever heard... i wonder why there is so much intolerance int he world...

[Mani_UT]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
...because God forbid a Frenchman get hurt defending his own country from invasion!

What the **** are you talking about. France lost way more soldiers defending its territory than the US ever will. You certainly can criticize the french government for bad decisions but not its soldiers for not fighting! You guys have never seen a real war, one where you try to defend your own home from the invaders. You are in no position to judge the French. Practically every family lost one or more of their sons in WWI, in WWII the French lost twice as many soldiers in 6 weeks than the US had casualties in 10 years of Vietnam. All you have going for you is a position geographically favorable with little or no potential ennemies at your door.

So yeah the French might me dislikeable, arrogant cheese eaters.. Why not..
Surrending monkeys? I think not.

Oh yeah I live in the US and I'd be the first one to take the arms against a foreign invasion but fight a war on the other side of the world for some obscure reasons? **** no.

:angry:

How people in your family died for your country?

[Big_Papa1080]

joke:
why are there trees on both sides of the roads in france?






So the germans can march in the shade.

[FlipSide]

Mani_UT got it! :thumb:

I have some very good french friends who told me absolutely horrible stories about their grandfather had to endure FOR YEARS in the german prisons.

Reading such uneducated whining from some little ****s that weren't even born at the time of WW2 would probably piss them off real bad.

Some people on this board should really get rid of that pro-american "we-are-the-greatest-nation-ever-and-the-rest-of-the-world-has-to-obey-to-our-command". Get a ****in' grip on reality and maybe start questionning some decisions of your retarded president.

Our prime minister here is a retard too...but first, he's much less dangerous, and second, we do realize he's a moron.
:angry:

Lighten up and stop taking CNN for godspell!

[patconnole]

Originally posted by steelewheels
thats the most racist thing i have ever heard... i wonder why there is so much intolerance int he world...


No no, Zibbler explained it above-- or, let Serial Midgit explain it.


"How quickly everyone forgets what actually happened on 9/11/01. Islam declared war on US! We MUST defend ourselves. If we don't, then the whole world will be wearing turbans and bowing to allah one day."


Zibbler made a typo and forgot to put "EXTREMISTS" next to "Islam." You can totally tell it was typo from the following sentences, where the fear of "extremists" is expressed, NOT AN ENTIRE RELIGION.




I love how we're almost as consumed with the French "debt" to us, as we are the Iraqi "threat". The two go hand in hand in some people's minds--- Although they're both imaginary.

[Silver]

Personally, I think it's more likely that the religious right is going to have a larger detrimental effect on my life than an Islamic extremist, but that's probably another thread :)

[zibbler]

Originally posted by steelewheels
thats the most racist thing i have ever heard... i wonder why there is so much intolerance int he world...

Where the fock do you get racism out of that? Good grief! What does racism have to do with a fanatical religious sect that decides to murder over 3000 innocent people. Let me guess, if there was a fanatical christian that bombed an abortion clinic, youd be all over that talking about how focked up christains are (which many of them are), and that would be acceptable to you. But when I said something about fanatical Islamics, now all of the sudden I'm a racist. Man, that is really a stretch.

You don't know sh!t about me, so don't be so presumptious. If you knew me, you'd know I'm one of the least racist people around. I don't judge people by the color of their skin, their religion or their gender, but by their actions.

[Stellite]

First of all all religions have their extremists and they are all dangerous. However, most religiouns don't take it to the point of flying planes into buildings. The muslim extremists are without a doubt the most dangerous and well funded of all, just ask the Israelis.

As for Bush being an idiot, I think the person that said it is a brainless idiot. nuf said.

as for the Canadian PM, Why do you say he is a moron, back it up. I love it when people talk crap and have no substantiation.

Everyone agrees Husein is a menace. Everyone agrees Bin Ladin is a menace, but no one wants to solve the problem. It seems that countries like to just stick their heads in the sand and hope it will go away. But people like these to egomaniacs don't go away unless you remove them. It will be done. The mistake made in the first war won't be made again. The arab world did not want Hussein removed or US troops in Baghdad. This time he is history and good ridance. Anyone that disagrees with this does not folow world affairs.

Also, I would like to point out that there was an idiot on the net that had a web site that spouted that the attack against the US by Bin ladin was made up and no planes actually hit any buildings. This idiot-traitor-pos was French if I am not mistaken.

[FlipSide]

Originally posted by Stellite

As for Bush being an idiot, I think the person that said it is a brainless idiot. nuf said.


I'm not...try again!

Originally posted by Stellite

as for the Canadian PM, Why do you say he is a moron, back it up. I love it when people talk crap and have no substantiation.


He can't speak without including a couple of syntaxic errors in each sentence. He is probably the worst embassador our country ever had. Come on! The guy is seen as a stupid clown by the other country leaders. You probably don't see this in the US, but there are countless examples of how much of a dork Jean Chrétien can be. I'm truly shameful to have such a PM acting like a clown in the other countries...and I'm not the only one feeling that way!

Sorry if I offended you with my comment about G. Bush.

[D_D]

Originally posted by zibbler
Where the fock do you get racism out of that? Good grief! What does racism have to do with a fanatical religious sect that decides to murder over 3000 innocent people. Let me guess, if there was a fanatical christian that bombed an abortion clinic, youd be all over that talking about how focked up christains are (which many of them are), and that would be acceptable to you. But when I said something about fanatical Islamics, now all of the sudden I'm a racist. Man, that is really a stretch.

You don't know sh!t about me, so don't be so presumptious. If you knew me, you'd know I'm one of the least racist people around. I don't judge people by the color of their skin, their religion or their gender, but by their actions.

You said this


Well said. It amazes me how many people think Bush wants to go to war because of his ego or something. That's BS. Like him or not, he is our leader and is doing what he has to do to defend our country. How quickly everyone forgets what actually happened on 9/11/01. Islam declared war on US! We MUST defend ourselves. If we don't, then the whole world will be wearing turbans and bowing to allah one day.


The last sentance is particually unfortunate, and looks racist and is very insulting to any people who choose to bow down to allah and wear turbans, racist or not you potentialy insulted a religion of people and linked them to terrorism.

It's not a too big jump for someone to then call you a racist.

[patconnole]

Originally posted by Stellite
First of all all religions have their extremists and they are all dangerous. However, most religiouns don't take it to the point of flying planes into buildings. The muslim extremists are without a doubt the most dangerous and well funded of all, just ask the Israelis.

As for Bush being an idiot, I think the person that said it is a brainless idiot. nuf said.

as for the Canadian PM, Why do you say he is a moron, back it up. I love it when people talk crap and have no substantiation.

Everyone agrees Husein is a menace. Everyone agrees Bin Ladin is a menace, but no one wants to solve the problem. It seems that countries like to just stick their heads in the sand and hope it will go away. But people like these to egomaniacs don't go away unless you remove them. It will be done. The mistake made in the first war won't be made again. The arab world did not want Hussein removed or US troops in Baghdad. This time he is history and good ridance. Anyone that disagrees with this does not folow world affairs.

Also, I would like to point out that there was an idiot on the net that had a web site that spouted that the attack against the US by Bin ladin was made up and no planes actually hit any buildings. This idiot-traitor-pos was French if I am not mistaken.

Is there a point to saying crap like that, with the idiot-traitor French- guy website? What does that prove to you? That there a dumb person with a website-- Or that a whole country is lame?

It wasn't just the Arab world that didn't want US troops in Baghdad, it was the whole world-- Who was supposed to take Saddam's place?

[Stellite]

Originally posted by patconnole
Is there a point to saying crap like that, with the idiot-traitor French- guy website? What does that prove to you? That there a dumb person with a website-- Or that a whole country is lame?

It wasn't just the Arab world that didn't want US troops in Baghdad, it was the whole world-- Who was supposed to take Saddam's place?

I do not think that the entire country of France is lame, just it's government and most of the arrogant a-holes that live in paris.

It was the arab part of the multi national coalition that entered the war against Iraq with a few conditions. One being that Baghdad be left alone and the second that Hussein be left in power. Looking back that may have been a huge mistake. The people of Iraq where betrayed by the Allies back then. They thought that their Tyrant was going to be removed, but he wasn't. Listen to the Iraqis that have left Iraq, they all have the same horror stories, not to mention the Kurds and Turkmens of Iraq, who have been witness to attrocities by Hussein.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Silver
Serial Midget..what happened to your post?

Wahahahahahaha... Ice Peeps Win Again - OH.

*Stolen from the Ice Peeps because they are thug punks.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by FlipSide
Our prime minister here is a retard too...but first, he's much less dangerous, and second, we do realize he's a moron.
:angry:

I've never thought of Canadians as dangerous... :D

[Serial Midget]

Lay it on Zibbler. :monkey:


Originally posted by zibbler
Where the fock do you get racism out of that? Good grief! What does racism have to do with a fanatical religious sect that decides to murder over 3000 innocent people. Let me guess, if there was a fanatical christian that bombed an abortion clinic, youd be all over that talking about how focked up christains are (which many of them are), and that would be acceptable to you. But when I said something about fanatical Islamics, now all of the sudden I'm a racist. Man, that is really a stretch.

You don't know sh!t about me, so don't be so presumptious. If you knew me, you'd know I'm one of the least racist people around. I don't judge people by the color of their skin, their religion or their gender, but by their actions.

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by Mani_UT
What the **** are you talking about. France lost way more soldiers defending its territory than the US ever will. You certainly can criticize the french government for bad decisions but not its soldiers for not fighting! You guys have never seen a real war, one where you try to defend your own home from the invaders. You are in no position to judge the French. Practically every family lost one or more of their sons in WWI, in WWII the French lost twice as many soldiers in 6 weeks than the US had casualties in 10 years of Vietnam. All you have going for you is a position geographically favorable with little or no potential ennemies at your door.

So yeah the French might me dislikeable, arrogant cheese eaters.. Why not..
Surrending monkeys? I think not.

Oh yeah I live in the US and I'd be the first one to take the arms against a foreign invasion but fight a war on the other side of the world for some obscure reasons? **** no.

:angry:

How people in your family died for your country?
Country, Est. # of Military Casualties(WWII)
Soviet Union, 8,668,000
China, 1,324,000
Germany, 3,250,000
Poland, 850,000
Japan, 1,506,000
Yugoslavia, 300,000
Romania, 520,000
France, 340,000
Hungary, 750,000
Austria, 380,000
Greece, 520,000
Italy, 330,000
Czechoslovakia, 400,000
Great Britain, 326,000
USA, 295,000
Holland, 14,000
Belgium, 10,000
Finland, 79,000
Canada, 42,000
India, 36,000
Australia, 29,000
Spain, 12,000
Bulgaria, 19,000
New Zealand, 12,000
South Africa, 9,000
Norway, 5,000
Denmark, 4,000

Est. # of Military Casualties(U.S. Civil War)
Union, 360,222
Confederate, 258,000
Total, 618,222

First of all, I have nothing but respect for French soldiers who fought the enemy, no matter how ineffectively. My criticism is reserved for those French who did nothing to fight the Germans or actively collaborated with them during the invasion and subsequent occupation. Secondly, given that we had a late start into the war and that it was not fought on our soil, I would think that our 295,000 casualties compare rather favorably to 340,000 French. I wonder how many soldiers France would have been willing to sacrifice to liberate the U.S. had the shoe been on the other foot. Anyhow, can you imagine the fist-fvck Hitler's soldiers would have received had they attempted an invasion of the U.S. homeland??? Potential invaders of the U.S. had better think twice, as we have a lot of guns here and a fair number of us are proficient with them- and that's not even counting our Armed Forces.

As for us never seeing a real war or having to fight one on our own soil against invaders, what about the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, or U.S. Civil War...perhaps you've heard of them? And while we're busy comparing apples and oranges, consider that we had almost twice as many killed fighting each other in the Civil War than France had fighting a foreign invader over a similar period of time...and almost 80 years earlier when we were much less populous. As for a favorable geographic location with no enemies at or doorstep, hey- what can I say? Location, location, location...many French have immigrated here and I have French blood in my ancestory as well.

The reason I am angry with the French is because they are actively working to undermine us in the international community for economic motives despite the danger that Saddam poses. Please don't confuse the issue by suggesting ASSUMED economic incentive for our looming conflict with Iraq when France has DOCUMENTED economic incentive to thwart it, such as their many attempts to build a nuclear reactor for Saddam and their many oil contracts with him.

As for members of my family killed fighting for the U.S., I'm really not sure and don't know an easy way of researching it. Sorry!

[JMAC]

Mani_Ut you know your shlt but Zibbler you're so racist:eek: or just don't understand somethings.

Bin Laden had the 9/11 happen because back when Clinton was president he went and blow up some embassy in Africa the US shoot a bunch of missile at them and didn't really know what they were blowing up.
They killed lots of civilians.

Bin Ladin and all of his crasy guys are part of some idea which they think ever since the Hanging Gardens of Babolon the reason things haven't gone well for them is because they have tryed to copy the west and their god is punishing them for living wrong.

Laden thinks that if they start living like they did 400 years ago everything will be good. And god will be nice. Only 1/3 muslim in the middle east beleive this so the only way for laden to take over the government and be able to force people to live like that is to use either an army or a huge mob of people. No military their has people willing to do this. So Laden was hoping that if the US shoot off enough bombs at them and killed lots of people it would piss every one of and make them anti American like the embassy bombing but bigger. Luckily Bush didn't do tha and instead waited almost 3 weeks before attacking Afganistan.

Most of Muslims like the US but i think if the US goes to Iraq and makes shlt alot more wll hate them.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Mani_UT


How people in your family died for your country?

My dad's father died in Germany during WW2 - He was 19 years old. My dad was born a few weeks after my grandmother found out her husband was dead. This was not uncommon for the time. :monkey:

[ghettorigged]

I am not calling them "freedom fries" so forget it. :rolleyes:

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by ghettorigged
I am not calling them "freedom fries" so forget it. :rolleyes:

I agree. I prefer my French fried. :monkey:

[zibbler]

Originally posted by JMAC
Mani_Ut you know your shlt but Zibbler you're so racist:eek: or just don't understand somethings.


Bite me! As I stated before, none of you know sh1t about me, so quit thinking you do. You people have taken what I've said so far out of context, and twisted my words so bad, it's pathetic. I will no longer waste my time with this petty topic.

It amazes me that I said I agreed with what another person said, and everyone wants to focking hang me, but no one had a problem with the person I agreed with, who BTW called them "robe wearing pukes". I said nothing insulting whatsoever about their nation or religion. If you guys have such thin skin as to be so insulted about what I said, then go back in your silly little bubble and live in your fantasy world.

I live in an area that has more nationalities and religions than you can count. If I was such a racist, I'd have been drawn and quartered by now. I have friends and aquintences of many different nationalities, religions and skin color which includes Jamaicans, Haitians, Cubans, Puertoricans, Brazillians, Pakistanis and yes, Muslims too. So quit spouting of your self righteous BS! :angry:

[Stellite]

Originally posted by JMAC
Mani_Ut you know your shlt but Zibbler you're so racist:eek: or just don't understand somethings.

1. Bin Laden had the 9/11 happen because back when Clinton was president he went and blow up some embassy in Africa the US shoot a bunch of missile at them and didn't really know what they were blowing up.
They killed lots of civilians.

2. Bin Ladin and all of his crasy guys are part of some idea which they think ever since the Hanging Gardens of Babolon the reason things haven't gone well for them is because they have tryed to copy the west and their god is punishing them for living wrong.

3. Laden thinks that if they start living like they did 400 years ago everything will be good. And god will be nice. Only 1/3 muslim in the middle east beleive this so the only way for laden to take over the government and be able to force people to live like that is to use either an army or a huge mob of people. No military their has people willing to do this. So Laden was hoping that if the US shoot off enough bombs at them and killed lots of people it would piss every one of and make them anti American like the embassy bombing but bigger. Luckily Bush didn't do tha and instead waited almost 3 weeks before attacking Afganistan.

4. Most of Muslims like the US but i think if the US goes to Iraq and makes shlt alot more wll hate them.

1. - During the entire clinton presidency we acted much like the french and did nothing except some token response that did not solve anything. MAke no mistake Bin Laden does what he does because he believes that all non muslims are infidels and less than a dog. They don't believe in taking a life unless it is an infidel like us.

2. Bin Ladin doesn't want to be like us, he wants to remove us because he believes that our way of life is converting many people in the world. Freedom and happiness are not his ideas. He wants control through strict religion.

3. Again, it is all about control by Bin Laden and removing all infidels (US and Israel and whoever is on their side)

4. MAny muslims do like the US and many do not and many of the ones that do not take their fruit from the US and make their lives here like the hipocrits they are. Saddam is an oppresor of his own people, he murdered, as has his sons. They are a family of murderers and rapists. He should change his name to NERO, it would be more appropriate.

[ChrisRobin]

It's funny eh? This whole thread started...haha...I almost forgot how it started! It's funny how in the end of this thread, everyone here is bickering at eachother.

[Mani_UT]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg


Hey llkoolkeg!

First thanks for this second message which I found much more moderate and compelling.

There are **** loads of stuff I hate about the French government myself (otherwise I would not be in the US by the way). I just hate it when people go out and give **** about people who sacrificied their lives for their country especially since a lot of people in my family served (some died).. I also know a thing or two about WRONG wars.. My dad got ****ed in Algeria when the French government turned his back on them (he ended up losing his French civil right because as a lot of soldiers over there they kept fighting after the governement said it was over when a year earlier that @#% of De Gaulle was saying Algeria would be French forever not that it was a great idea anyway..)

Another reason France actually put such a bad show in WWII (beside imcompetent military leaders ) is that we had nobody left to fight after WWI!

In WWI (1914-1918) France lost 1 400 000 soldiers!!! That would be equivallent to losing 6 000 000 soldiers for a country the size of the US. Most of those where young adult who did not procreate (they were dead..) in 1918-1919 The spanish flu hit... another 400 000 died!! again mostly young male.. Those dead did not procreate either...

Move forward 20 years.. The childrens of those young adults were never born, never grew up and never became old enough to be enrolled in the army in 1939...

In 6 weeks, the French army gets run over, there is nobody left to fight.. End of story

WAR is ugly no matter how you look at it and should be treated with respect.. It is no joke, no playstation, no CNN reality show

[ChrisRobin]

(shakes his head)...

All this is crazy! Ok, everyone calm down...I'm sure none of us are rascist and none of us are stupid. We're all smart happy people that are getting carried away a little. What's REALLY crazy is distributors not having have the damn parts I need for my new bike!!! :angry:

[JMAC]

Originally posted by ChrisRobin
(shakes his head)...

All this is crazy! Ok, everyone calm down...I'm sure none of us are rascist and none of us are stupid. We're all smart happy people that are getting carried away a little. What's REALLY crazy is distributors not having have the damn parts I need for my new bike!!! :angry:

That is crasy is it that Lambart Or OCG or something cause they never have anything when i want it to it's just crasy.:devil:

[ChrisRobin]

Originally posted by JMAC
That is crasy is it that Lambart Or OCG or something cause they never have anything when i want it to it's just crasy.:devil:

No, it's something else...something in particular...something I have a bad feeling about.

[JMAC]

Originally posted by ChrisRobin
No, it's something else...something in particular...something I have a bad feeling about.

Well i hope you get what you need so did you get it? I meen your amasing new DH bike:)
Also does your shop have any cool new stuff?

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by Mani_UT
Hey llkoolkeg!

First thanks for this second message which I found much more moderate and compelling.

I'm never really 100% about anything. I just like to ramble on because it keeps me re-evaluating. Beliefs, like concrete, harden quickly when they stop being stirred up.

[Damn True]

This thread is still here yet good news about the French http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47026 gets banished to the Political Debate forum.
:confused:
That makes perfect sense.
:rolleyes:

Why did that thread get moved?

It didn't contain anything contentious, there was not heated debate. Simply sharing a positive development in on a subject that has been largely negative.

[stosh]

I'm going to have a turkey sandwhich for lunch.

[I Are Baboon]

Originally posted by Damn True
This thread is still here yet good news about the French http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47026 gets banished to the Political Debate forum.
:confused:
That makes perfect sense.
:rolleyes:

Why did that thread get moved?

It didn't contain anything contentious, there was not heated debate. Simply sharing a positive development in on a subject that has been largely negative.

I moved it. We don't "banish" threads to Political Debate, we MOVE them there. Not everyone is interested in seeing France/Iraq debate threads in the Lounge.

Moving this one now. :monkey:

[Serial Midget]

Stoshed and banished. :monkey:

Debates outside the Polictal forum are are always more lively and interesting... it's a great place to bait unsuspecting innocents. :p

[Stellite]

Subject: Dennis Miller on World Politics

Article in the Wichita Falls

"TRYING TO HELP"
By Dennis Miller

All the rhetoric on whether or not we should go to war against Iraq has got
my little brain spinning like a top. I enjoy reading opinions from both
sides, but I've detected a hint of confusion from some of you. Maybe this
can help.

As I was reading the paper recently, I was reminded of the best advice
anyone ever gave me. He told me about the "KISS" method ("Keep It Simple,
Stupid!"). So with this as a theme, I'd like to apply this theory for
those who don't quite get it. My hope is that we can simplify things and
recognize a few important facts.

Here are some things to consider when voicing an opinion on this important
issue:

Between President Bush and Saddam Hussein ... Hussein is the bad guy.

If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right things, keep this
in mind: the UN has Libya heading the Committee on Human Rights and Iraq
heading the Global Disarmament Committee. Do your own math here.

If you use a Google or Yahoo search and type in "French Military
Victories," don't be surprised if your computer panicks at its inability to
respond to your inquiry.

If your only anti-war slogan is "No War For Oil," hire a pit bull lawyer
and sue your school district for having allowed you to slip through the
cracks and robbing you of the minimum education that any non-troglodyte
deserves

You can take this one to the bank: Saddam and bin Laden will NOT seek UN
approval before they try to kill us.

Despite common belief among some, Martin Sheen is NOT the President. He
only plays one on TV.

If you are anti-war and even an outright "America Basher," to bin Laden you
are still an "infidel" whom he wants dead.

Be careful: if you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy," but not in
the danger that Hussein poses, the only job you may be able to get is as an
Ivy League college professor.

Even multi-culturalists who try to browbeat us into believing that all
cultures are equally deserving of respect have trouble explaining the past
500 year of Islam.

I hope this helps.

[Spud]

As long as we are busy standing on the shoulders of our grandfathers (and puffing our chests as if we were the troops actually in harms way).

I wonder how successful the American Revolution would have been without France's support? And without the French giving us a sweet-heart deal on the Louisiana purchase?

I really don't care for the French, but all our effort bashing them could also be used for a little bit of introspection on our motives and priorities...

[rbx]

Originally posted by Stellite
Subject: Dennis Miller on World Politics

Even multi-culturalists who try to browbeat us into believing that all
cultures are equally deserving of respect have trouble explaining the past
500 year of Islam.

I hope this helps.

dennis miller is a ignorant fool

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by Spud
As long as we are busy standing on the shoulders of our grandfathers (and puffing our chests as if we were the troops actually in harms way).

I wonder how successful the American Revolution would have been without France's support? And without the French giving us a sweet-heart deal on the Louisiana purchase?

I really don't care for the French, but all our effort bashing them could also be used for a little bit of introspection on our motives and priorities...



All generations are built on the successes and failures of preceeding ones. Taking pride in one's country has nothing to do with taking credit for the deeds of others.

It is fortunate that France was still stinging from the French and Indian War(not to mention serveral other conflicts with the English) and willing to assist our fledgling nation deliver to King George a healthy black eye.

It is also fortunate that they were so cash-strapped during their subsequent conflict that they were willing to sell us the Louisiana Territory at a fire-sale price to fund their war machine.

Am I to assume that you believe either of these occurred as a result of altruistic motives and humanitarian priorities? Puh-leeeeez! Does that mean you now believe France is against deposing Saddam because "war is not the answer" and that "we need to give peace a chance"???

[Serial Midget]

War has begun; the dogs of Baghdad are barking but the streets are empty. :monkey:

[Stellite]

Originally posted by rbx
dennis miller is a ignorant fool

No, Dennis Miller is not French, .:D :D :D

But at least the US knows who it's friends are now. The ones who voted on it's side. Sad to see the others who didn't. I guess trade won't be as good as it was with our neighbors anymore, gee too bad.:p

[Silver]

Yeah, especially since the US is a net importer, eh?

[rbx]

Originally posted by Stellite
No, Dennis Miller is not French, .:D :D :D

But at least the US knows who it's friends are now. The ones who voted on it's side. Sad to see the others who didn't. I guess trade won't be as good as it was with our neighbors anymore, gee too bad.:p

yeah to bad the euro is getting so strong;)

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by Stellite
No, Dennis Miller is not French, .:D :D :D

But at least the US knows who it's friends are now. The ones who voted on it's side. Sad to see the others who didn't. I guess trade won't be as good as it was with our neighbors anymore, gee too bad.:p
Impressive post, rarely has the ugly American stereotype been expressed so eloquently. Do you really think trade between America and France et al will be affected by this disagreement? Even if it is, do you think your "neighbours" will be the only ones to be negatively affected. Come on now, repeat after me "France is not the enemy......France is not the enemy"

[Stellite]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Impressive post, rarely has the ugly American stereotype been expressed so eloquently. Do you really think trade between America and France et al will be affected by this disagreement? Even if it is, do you think your "neighbours" will be the only ones to be negatively affected. Come on now, repeat after me "France is not the enemy......France is not the enemy"

France is not the enemy, France is not the enemy.

OF course they are not the enemy. Hey, I like French wine, French women, French Road Bikes, etc. Their cars suck, except for their cool little rally car. I have had French friends that are not from Paris, even these friends told me that the parisians are not friendly. It is their weak government that is rediculous.

I just have to make comments when I see the rediculous ignorant dribble comming out of RBX and JMAC. I do not see you make comments to what they state. It appears we have to sides here and your comment as well is on one side, and far from unbiased. So be it. I guess we all have that freedom to make comments, unlike the Iraqis under Saddam and the Afghans under the Taliban. Why do you not want these peoples to have freedom like you enjoy to speak your mind? or do you not wish them to speak their mind and show you how wrong you are. :rolleyes:

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by Stellite
I guess we all have that freedom to make comments, unlike the Iraqis under Saddam and the Afghans under the Taliban. Why do you not want these peoples to have freedom like you enjoy to speak your mind? or do you not wish them to speak their mind and show you how wrong you are. :rolleyes:
Bravo. You were going so well up to this point. Unfortunately you felt the need to once again lapse into the same kind of simple-minded rhetoric that characterised your previous posts. Try, if possible, to get past the idea that if I disagree with you I'm an opponent of freedom. If a person opposes the war (I'm not necessarily opposed to the war per se, just the reasoning implicit in it) it doesn't mean they support the Taliban or Saddam. A lot of people, but obviously not you, have a more sophisticated view of affairs but it's still not a difficult concept to understand. Here let me put it to you as simply as possible. Saddam bad, Taliban bad, Bush and co rash and ill-conceived.
You're right about one thing though, we do have the freedom to make comments. We also have the freedom to make fools of ourselves as you have so plainly shown.

[Stellite]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Bravo. You were going so well up to this point. Unfortunately you felt the need to once again lapse into the same kind of simple-minded rhetoric that characterised your previous posts. Try, if possible, to get past the idea that if I disagree with you I'm an opponent of freedom. If a person opposes the war (I'm not necessarily opposed to the war per se, just the reasoning implicit in it) it doesn't mean they support the Taliban or Saddam. A lot of people, but obviously not you, have a more sophisticated view of affairs but it's still not a difficult concept to understand. Here let me put it to you as simply as possible. Saddam bad, Taliban bad, Bush and co rash and ill-conceived.
You're right about one thing though, we do have the freedom to make comments. We also have the freedom to make fools of ourselves as you have so plainly shown.

I do not know if you are an opponent of freedom, however, it is plainly apparent to people that have lived without freedom that you must fight for it. No one really knows what is the best way to deal with these nuts, but last 12 years haven't worked. You think that freedom and peace has no price? Talk to oppressed people anywhere. Ask all the Kuwaitis if they think Saddam should be left alone, the answer is a resounding NO. Ask the Kurds of Iraq if Saddam should be left alone, the answer is a resounding no. Ask the Turkmen of Iraq if Saddam should be left alone, NO. Ask the Israeilis, NO again. Now Ask Germany, Yes, because they have an economic interest. Ask France, Yes, same answer as Germany. Russia, same answer as Germany and so on. The people that matter have no vote in the UN.


"You're right about one thing though, we do have the freedom to make comments. We also have the freedom to make fools of ourselves as you have so plainly shown." These words also apply to you. You obviously have no points just words of attack. State something with some meaning and I'll listen to your point of view and discuss it intelligently. Use words of hate and I'll drop to your level so you can understand better.

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by Stellite
I do not know if you are an opponent of freedom, however, it is plainly apparent to people that have lived without freedom that you must fight for it. No one really knows what is the best way to deal with these nuts, but last 12 years haven't worked. You think that freedom and peace has no price? Talk to oppressed people anywhere. Ask all the Kuwaitis if they think Saddam should be left alone, the answer is a resounding NO. Ask the Kurds of Iraq if Saddam should be left alone, the answer is a resounding no. Ask the Turkmen of Iraq if Saddam should be left alone, NO. Ask the Israeilis, NO again. Now Ask Germany, Yes, because they have an economic interest. Ask France, Yes, same answer as Germany. Russia, same answer as Germany and so on. The people that matter have no vote in the UN.


"You're right about one thing though, we do have the freedom to make comments. We also have the freedom to make fools of ourselves as you have so plainly shown." These words also apply to you. You obviously have no points just words of attack. State something with some meaning and I'll listen to your point of view and discuss it intelligently. Use words of hate and I'll drop to your level so you can understand better.
Well I thought I'd put it in words so simple that anybody who speaks English could understand but obviously not. I DON'T SUPPORT SADDAM. He must go, but the way the US and its allies are going about it is wrong. I'm looking at a bigger picture than just Iraq. Try this link, I think this explains my position (and probably many people's ideas) better than I can;
www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?vts=031620031210&cp1=1
It's long but do your best. Oh and don't get ridicule mixed up with hate. You're just a name on an internet board, why would I waste my energy hating you?

[Stellite]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Well I thought I'd put it in words so simple that anybody who speaks English could understand but obviously not. I DON'T SUPPORT SADDAM. He must go, but the way the US and its allies are going about it is wrong. I'm looking at a bigger picture than just Iraq. Try this link, I think this explains my position (and probably many people's ideas) better than I can;
www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?vts=031620031210&cp1=1
It's long but do your best. Oh and don't get ridicule mixed up with hate. You're just a name on an internet board, why would I waste my energy hating you?

As for your last coment, there is no hate here. This is just a debate and I have no hate for anyone, and actually enjoy these discussions, even with some of the bumd comments we have all made. I read and understand your point of view. However, it is not the whole world against us in this. Lets see. Russia is against it, yet they have commited murder against the CHechens whom they call rebels. They have also attacked the Afghans in the past as we all know. China--they have no clue what human rights means. France--Socialist and for the most part Anti-American. Germany--Well past history says it all. These are the main countries against us and have enough power to sway much smaller countries against us in public opinion.

Here are some countries on our side: Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan (post conflict), Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, Uzbekistan. Israel is trying to publicly stay out of the war per request of the US, but make no mistake, they are with the US on this one. Kuwait is also in this list. As are many more countries not listed. Some of these countries know full well what it means to be subjugated and support the US.

This is tough, but let me ask you. What should be done with Saddam. Leave him as is? He won't leave peacefully and he will continue to arm himself. What if he never abides by what the UN asks.

Lets face it, he did not start destroying his missiles until our troops started heading over there, even though he has had 12 years to disarm. He understands only one thing and it is not verbal requests.
Explain to me how to deal with him then?

[rbx]

Originally posted by Stellite
France is not the enemy, France is not the enemy.

OF course they are not the enemy. Hey, I like French wine, French women, French Road Bikes, etc. Their cars suck, except for their cool little rally car. I have had French friends that are not from Paris, even these friends told me that the parisians are not friendly. It is their weak government that is rediculous.

I just have to make comments when I see the rediculous ignorant dribble comming out of RBX and JMAC. I do not see you make comments to what they state. It appears we have to sides here and your comment as well is on one side, and far from unbiased. So be it. I guess we all have that freedom to make comments, unlike the Iraqis under Saddam and the Afghans under the Taliban. Why do you not want these peoples to have freedom like you enjoy to speak your mind? or do you not wish them to speak their mind and show you how wrong you are. :rolleyes:

first of all my comment was directed to the ignorant remark that dennis miller made towards the fact that he sums up the islam religion in the last 500years and said it sucked,its like me summing up the american culture and saying that it sucked because of only a handfull of idiots that still believe in slavery(kkk)
i was not on anybody side also what piss me off is the fact that you(and others on this board) look under my avatar and see that im french canadian and automatically make up your mind without even reading my post that to me IS also ignorant behavior!

yeah i do believe iraqi people should have the freedom to live in a democratic state BUT imo democratie cannot be switched on and off like a light switch it take year of negotiations and SHOULD reflect the people ideoligies in a that region

this bush doctrine mentality that is "our way or the highway" will just get the u,s in deeper $hit in the long run theres more then one way to skin a cat!

[DRB]

Originally posted by Stellite
Lets see. Russia is against it, yet they have commited murder against the CHechens whom they call rebels. They have also attacked the Afghans in the past as we all know. China--they have no clue what human rights means.

Here are some countries on our side: Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan (post conflict), Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, Uzbekistan.

You bash China for human rights, then use some of the countries on your list as support for US actions. There are a couple of real winners on your list.

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by Stellite



This is tough, but let me ask you. What should be done with Saddam. Leave him as is? He won't leave peacefully and he will continue to arm himself. What if he never abides by what the UN asks.

Lets face it, he did not start destroying his missiles until our troops started heading over there, even though he has had 12 years to disarm. He understands only one thing and it is not verbal requests.
Explain to me how to deal with him then?
Did you read the article in the link in my previous message? I think it answers the question quite well, but anyhow...
Well for a start he shouldn't have been given carte blanche to committ all those atrocities in the 80's. I don't know about you but I'm old enough to remember when Saddam was a "friend" of the West. It would have helped if the West had some shown some moral backbone but as usual expediency rules the roost. After the first gulf war if the West had have been more consistent in dealing with Saddam then we may not be where we are now. I think the most important part, and this is the theme of the article I linked to, is that what the US and its allies are doing now flies in the face of the successful formula that has helped America become such a powerful presence in the world, i.e working with other countries and international organisations to achieve mutually beneficial goals.
In this case I certainly think that France and the others would have been supportive if not for the inept diplomatic fumblings from Bush and his cronies. Of course Chirac is a blowhard with an ego the size of the Eiffel Tower, he's been around since I was a boy. The point is we should have known what to expect from him but instead Bush and co just blundered ahead pig-headedly and backed Chirac into a corner.
The whole point of this is that what the US and its allies are doing in Iraq may well make things better in the short term but it also may make things a whole lot worse in the long term. Bush seems to have no broader strategic goals and his policy is being made on the run without the right kind of thought going into it. There seems to be no coherent policy beyond get rid of Saddam. Ok, so he gets rid of Saddam which certainly won't be a bad thing in itself, but what's next? I'm sure Bush and his cohorts don't know. They seem to be making this up as they go along. I mean any time you feel compelled to invade another country you'd have to say your foreign policy isn't working as well as it should.:D

[DRB]

Originally posted by rbx
yeah i do believe iraqi people should have the freedom to live in a democratic state BUT imo democratie cannot be switched on and off like a light switch it take year of negotiations and SHOULD reflect the people ideoligies in a that region

This is a convenient statement for a person who lives in a country that enjoys a democratic government. A country in which you can lead organized protests against the government without serious fear of reprisal or even worse death. Do you honestly believe that leaving Saddam in place in Iraq will ever allow that country to become a democracy or at least a more benvolent dictatorship? Do you really believe that it would be possible for Saddam to lead his country into a new era that would bring prosperity to the Iraqi people?

If you do then you have simply not looked at Iraq's history since his being in power. There are many arguements against the war but this simply is not one of them.

[DRB]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
I think the most important part, and this is the theme of the article I linked to, is that what the US and its allies are doing now flies in the face of the successful formula that has helped America become such a powerful presence in the world, i.e working with other countries and international organisations to achieve mutually beneficial goals.
Like what? After the first Gulf war which ones are you talking about? Even the article admits that the three military interventions during Clinton's administration were done pretty much unilaterally. I think that he is attributing qualities to the US that it may have never really had to help make his point.


In this case I certainly think that France and the others would have been supportive if not for the inept diplomatic fumblings from Bush and his cronies. Of course Chirac is a blowhard with an ego the size of the Eiffel Tower, he's been around since I was a boy. The point is we should have known what to expect from him but instead Bush and co just blundered ahead pig-headedly and backed Chirac into a corner.

This was bound to happen at some point. France has been the main reason that the West has been inconsistent in dealing with the Iraqis since the Gulf War. They have angled the entire time to lift sanctions and declare Iraq in compliance. There is also more here than Iraq going on between the US and France.

The whole point of this is that what the US and its allies are doing in Iraq may well make things better in the short term but it also may make things a whole lot worse in the long term. Bush seems to have no broader strategic goals and his policy is being made on the run without the right kind of thought going into it. There seems to be no coherent policy beyond get rid of Saddam. Ok, so he gets rid of Saddam which certainly won't be a bad thing in itself, but what's next? I'm sure Bush and his cohorts don't know. They seem to be making this up as they go along. I mean any time you feel compelled to invade another country you'd have to say your foreign policy isn't working as well as it should.:D

I think that you are wrong here. I believe that there is a long term plan in place. I don't think that these actions have been made up as they have gone along. All of this is consistent Wolfowitz and Chenney and the others with Project for the New American Century. So while it would be bad if they were bumbling along, I think that this is worse as it appears that much of what we are seeing now is going to be SOP as we go forward.

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by DRB
Like what? After the first Gulf war which ones are you talking about? Even the article admits that the three military interventions during Clinton's administration were done pretty much unilaterally. I think that he is attributing qualities to the US that it may have never really had to help make his point.



This was bound to happen at some point. France has been the main reason that the West has been inconsistent in dealing with the Iraqis since the Gulf War. They have angled the entire time to lift sanctions and declare Iraq in compliance. There is also more here than Iraq going on between the US and France.



I think that you are wrong here. I believe that there is a long term plan in place. I don't think that these actions have been made up as they have gone along. All of this is consistent Wolfowitz and Chenney and the others with Project for the New American Century. So while it would be bad if they were bumbling along, I think that this is worse as it appears that much of what we are seeing now is going to be SOP as we go forward.
1- I think the point he is making there is that those acts had pretty broad international support. The Iraq situation doesn't.
2- France certainly haven't got much to be proud of in their foreign policy but to lay the blame for inaction solely on France doesn't wash with me. As for what else is going on between the US and France, do tell??:)
3- Mmmmmmm, you may be right there, which of course as you said makes it all the more scary.

[rbx]

Originally posted by DRB
This is a convenient statement for a person who lives in a country that enjoys a democratic government. A country in which you can lead organized protests against the government without serious fear of reprisal or even worse death. Do you honestly believe that leaving Saddam in place in Iraq will ever allow that country to become a democracy or at least a more benvolent dictatorship? Do you really believe that it would be possible for Saddam to lead his country into a new era that would bring prosperity to the Iraqi people?

If you do then you have simply not looked at Iraq's history since his being in power. There are many arguements against the war but this simply is not one of them.

the removal of saddam is a non-issue he has to go but the way you implement democracy afterwards is what im trying to discuss,the western view of what is a democratic society does not necessarily reflect the ideologies of the people of that region thats the reason i said you cant just "cut and paste" democracy.

[DRB]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
1- I think the point he is making there is that those acts had pretty broad international support. The Iraq situation doesn't.
2- France certainly haven't got much to be proud of in their foreign policy but to lay the blame for inaction solely on France doesn't wash with me. As for what else is going on between the US and France, do tell??:)
3- Mmmmmmm, you may be right there, which of course as you said makes it all the more scary.

But there was no coalition building, Clinton just did it. Grenda, Panama, and a dozen other interventions throughout Central America all were done with little or no beforehand international consensus building.

Nowhere do I lay the blame solely on the French but I do lay a majority of it there. Go back and research UN debate on Iraq in the Security Council and you will see what I mean. The French have always been urging for the UN to ease up on Iraq. Now while they might have had some humantarian reasons, the vast majority of them are economic. The history of trouble between the US and France goes back to 1954 some of it I detailed here http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=42889&perpage=15&highlight=Suez&pagenumber=2.

But even more modern to the point is that France has continued to chafe at the "power" the US has had in regards to European politics. It really is one of the major drives behind the creation of the EU. They have been a driving force behind the EU and the Euro. And for a time