Caged Bearings?

[NRSracer]

can i take the cage off of the caged bearings without any ill effects?
Thanks,
Pat

[bomberz1qr20]

Originally posted by NRSracer
can i take the cage off of the caged bearings without any ill effects?
Thanks,
Pat

I assume you mean in a headset?

Yeah, it's better in some cases actually, you need to add one or more bearings to take up the space though. More bearings = better load distribution = good.

[Matt D]

you usually can.

The only ill effects is that the next time you take apart the component, they will most likey fall all over the place.

[D_D]

To generally get the right number of bearings without a cage, put in as many bearings that will fit then remove 1.

If it's a headset removing the cage in the lower cup will make it difficult to service.

If you are looking for any performance increases it's proberly not worth the bother.

[Zark]

Taking out the cages allows the bearings to freely move around in the headset reducing pitting of the cups. Make sure you have the right number of bearings in; as many that will fit, but still allow a little gap.

[oldfart]

Pitting is caused by lack of lube I think not number of balls. If we're talking headsets, removing the cage allows maybe one or two balls more. It won't make much difference. It used to be, well still is a way to extend the life of a headset which had brinelled. That's when the balls have made little indents in the races. The steering then wants to center itself and it gets hard to ride no hands or turn on smooth surfaces. Off road you often don't notice it. Adding more balls forces the balls into a pattern where they don't all fall into a dint.

[Zark]

Pitting is the damage on either the cups or cones of a bearing surface.

Pitting isn't caused solely by lack of grease or caged bearings or loose headsets, its usually the sum total of those things. Pitting is unavoidable, like getting old, its just a matter of time. The metal to metal contanct eventually will cause it. I worked in a student bike shop for years in college and worked on everything. I've seen perfectly adjusted and greased bearing surfaces develop pitting from heavy use.

Caged bearings force the bearings to ride on the same spot on the cup and cone, which can lead to pitting. Using free ball bearings just allows them to cruise around and not wear in the same spot.

I think Old Fart and I are saying the same thing:rolleyes:

[NRSracer]

thanks, it's actually for my road BB. they were just pissing me off every time i'd overhaul it, so i figured i'd ask. i think they are actually in the headset too though.

[bomberz1qr20]

Any time you re-pack a bearing set, use new bearings. If you use the same bearings,even w/o the cage, they will NOT re-intstall right.

Ball bearings take on a very slight ovalization after awhile, from running in the same confines between cup and cone, and it is impossible to realign all these tiny egg-shaped bearings after they've been removed. You'll be adjusting the play out till you die.

Use fresh bearings of the exact same size. Filll the cup w/ a bead of grease, then press in one ball at a time till full.


K?

[NRSracer]

Originally posted by bomberz1qr20
Any time you re-pack a bearing set, use new bearings. If you use the same bearings,even w/o the cage, they will NOT re-intstall right.

Ball bearings take on a very slight ovalization after awhile, from running in the same confines between cup and cone, and it is impossible to realign all these tiny egg-shaped bearings after they've been removed. You'll be adjusting the play out till you die.

Use fresh bearings of the exact same size. Filll the cup w/ a bead of grease, then press in one ball at a time till full.


K?
do hardware shops have bearings?
thanks
pat

[oldfart]

Brinelling is different. A slightly brinelled race might look OK, but get it in the light and you will see little indentations from where the balls sat. Caged balls float freely too but remain equidistant from each other. Caged balls brinell the same as loose balls. Pits are usually seen on the races as pit shaped rough ares where the surface has been ground away by unlubed or poory lubed balls grinding away. Worn races can be free of either pitting or brinelling and will simply have a smooth groove worn into the races.

[D_D]

Brinelling isn't going to happen in a hub or bottom bracket as the continual rotation will distrubute lubricant better and the bearings won't be moving a small amount and then moving back to the original posistion.

I would imaginge it's unlikly you will ever have a problem with mtb headsets if the bike is ridden off-road due to the large amounts of large steering movements keeping the bearing surfaces lubed.

[johnbryanpeters]

http://www.precisionspindle.com/brinelling.htm

"Brinelling is caused when a load is applied to a ball bearing that exceeds the elastic limits of the steel and the raceways are permanently deformed. Brinelling creates measurable dents at each ball location similar to the deformation caused by a Brinell Hardness Tester. This type of damage can occur quite easily if proper care is not taken. High energy impacts (from hammers and smash-ups), improper bearing handling and incorrect spindle assembly can all damage bearings. Remember that we are talking about bearings with raceways with roundness measured in millionths of an inch. You might not even realize the damage has occurred except for increases in vibration and non-repetitive run-out."

"False brinelling is not related to excessive loads. False brinelling is caused by ambient vibration. Even a brand new bearing, sealed in a box on a shelf, is subject to false brinelling if it is exposed to environmental vibrations for an extended period. When a bearing is not operating it is subject to false brinelling in the box or in the machine. When a bearing is operating, there is a oil film between the rolling elements and the raceways. Bearing gurus talk about EHD (elasto-hydro-dynamic) film. Most people can relate to hydroplaning. When you reach a certain speed on a wet road your tires actually lift off the road (not good). But when a bearing operates with the proper lubrication and at the right speed the balls or rollers lift off the raceway slightly (this is good). This extremely thin film protects and lubricates the bearing while it is running. When the bearing is stopped there is no EHD film and there IS metal to metal contact. That is when false brinelling can quietly attack your bearings. The combination of metal to metal contact and vibration create a wear and corrosion pattern that mimics brinelling."

[D_D]

Originally posted by johnbryanpeters
http://www.precisionspindle.com/brinelling.htm

"Brinelling is caused when a load is applied to a ball bearing that exceeds the elastic limits of the steel and the raceways are permanently deformed. Brinelling creates measurable dents at each ball location similar to the deformation caused by a Brinell Hardness Tester."

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.13.html