A Consumer's Impact on a Touchy Subject

[Merwin5_10]

While at work recently, I retired to the “library” to catch up on some reading. I had a copy of the August Bike magazine in my hands. Inside was an article by Mike Ferrentino about retail bike shops verses mail order. I found this article particularly interesting. Mr. Ferrentino explained that during this time of depressed economies and hard times for many shops, Bike would demonstrate their support of retail bike shops by excluding any advertisements for mail order businesses. Being in the retail business, I thought I might offer my perspective on the matter, and make a plea for your business.

First and for the record, no, bike shops can’t compete with the prices you see in the mags for mail order companies. There are many reasons why these companies can sell product for so cheap. Some get what is called OEM pricing. Original Equipment Manufacturer pricing is extended to a business that builds finished product for resale. This is also how bike companies, like Trek, make a profit. Since they are purchasing product to complete a bike for resale, they receive deep discounts, better than wholesale. OEM was meant to protect the profit margins of product sold at wholesale. This protection provides invaluable revenue, much of which is used for research and development. This increased money, in part, has lead to the fine technological innovations the bike industry has experienced in the last ten years. So, it would be wrong to condemn OEM pricing. The problem occurs when greedy companies see and opportunity to abuse this privilege, and order excess parts for the sole purpose of resale at a profit. In this case, the company in question makes the same margin as a wholesale or retail distributor would, except they sell directly to the public, effectively cutting out the middleman.

Another way that mail order companies can offer such great deals is by purchasing products from “gray market” sources. This can be especially destructive for everyone, including the consumer. Many times the purchases are not authorized, sanctioned, or monitored by the maker of the product. “Gray market” is an industry slang term that describes a supply and sale any product that does not travel through regulated channels. At first glance this may not seem harmful, but consider these types of “gray market” traffic. Some shady mail order distributors have been caught selling stolen, recalled and even warranty returned product to consumers, with the false pretense that the sale will be supported by all manufacturer warranties and guarantees. These cases are actively pursued and investigated by the makers of these products in the attempt to protect the reputation of their company and the safety of their customers. We’ve all seen these companies. Adds appear in magazines for a couple of months. Then they’re gone. Two months later, the same company begins selling the same products with the same marketing campaign, and the same risks, under a different name. If you happen to be unlucky enough to purchase product from these people, you are stuck with product the maker never intended for sale, possibly due to safety reasons, with no recourse of action. Hopefully you will not discover this when your bike breaks unexpectedly, rendering you the newest member of the semi-injured clique.

(In fairness to the reputable on-line and mail order companies, I will admit that this is not the majority of the companies out there. I will also offer that these crooks can be easily avoided by purchasing from companies that have a solid word-of-mouth reputation and an established history. If in doubt, contact the maker of the product you are interested in buying. Ask if they are authorized to sell their product. I can assure you that finding a too-good-to-be-true deal may sound like something you can’t pass up, but you should probably investigate.)

In addition to these examples, add any of a hundred others. Companies sell parts from discontinued bikes. Companies take advantage of quantity discounts, where they receive incredible savings because they buy so many units. Companies start an online business that is tied into their retail business so they can get the same perks and stay competitive in a very hostile market. The fact is everyone needs to make a profit. You can’t survive without one. So the question becomes, as a consumer why not buy and save big bucks? Why not let these companies battle it out, and let the strongest survive? Why not?

The answer is; honestly, we won’t survive. I don’t mean my shop. I mean bicycle retail. I mean the shop you have a relationship with. The guy you trust to fix your bike when all hell breaks loose. I’m talking about the shop that considers your business so important, that it they will exchange a part you ordered on-line, just to make you happy. Maybe they install it for free. Maybe they tell you its not the right part for your bike, then tell you which one you need that will work, knowing you won’t be buying it from them. I would ask you to think about it. Where online do you receive that kind of personal service? The real price I spoke about is the real threat of loosing these shops. Will every one fold? Probably not. Will on-line and mail order completely dominate the bicycle industry? Not right away, but eventually. Will it eventually trickle down to the bike companies themselves? Absolutely. Is it worth the money you save? You will answer that.

In this day and age, society asks you to save everything from paper to seals. I’ll spare you a sappy, Greenpeace inspired spiel about the moral obligation of consumers to protect bike shops. At its fundamental level, it is business. And the strongest will survive. As businessmen, we knew this when we opened our stores and we live with this reality daily. Being a family man, I also appreciate that there are more important things to spend money on than bike parts. I understand the importance of saving as much as we can to make a better life for ourselves, and those we love. But as consumers, you have an awesome power. Where you take you business, and to whom you give your money dictates whom will be around in five years, and who will not. I can promise you that when your favorite bike shop closes, and you can no longer reach your trusted bike tech, or when Research and Development dollars begin to dry up from an industry in recession, and new models are seen every two or three years, you will know the true cost of cheap parts.

Check it out, monkeys. Ask your local shop how they feel about the pressure of price matching to online and mail order companies. Ask them what it does to their profits. Ask them why they do it. Ask them why they don’t. PM James at Giant (sorry to throw you under the bus, dude.) Ask him how bike companies feel about these predators. Ask him what he foresees for the bike industry if these companies do begin to dominate the industry. Ask what the long-term effects would be. Ask anyone’s opinion whom you truly trust. You have the power of choosing. I would only ask that you make an educated decision. And if you work in a shop, be honest with your customers. Answer their questions as completely as you can. They are the reason we are here.

In the interim, thanks to Mr. Ferrentino and Bike magazine for supporting the bike shops dedicated to growing the sport we love. To everyone else reading this, its Saturday morning, don’t you have a ride to make?

[RideMonkey]

In the end it comes down to business. I'm going to spend my money where I feel its going to return the greatest benefit for me. If I wanted to donate to charity it would probably go to cancer research not the LBS.

I have spent 100% of my money this year at the LBS. Not because I am loyal to the LBS but because they have had what I needed when I needed it (of course one of my LBS is a big mail order warehouse that happens to have a retail front).

To be honest, I have not been happy with my LBS experiences this year. JOJO and I spent a fortune at one bike shop and she still had to leave her bike for almost a week mid season to get her "complimentary" tune on the bike she bought there. And they charged us full price to install some brake pads during the "complimentary" tune.

On another occasion I bought a bike from them on a Friday. I bought this bike for one reason only: I really wanted to get 2 days of riding in that weekend because I had been without a bike all season. It turned out that on my first ride Saturday the bike developed a problem that needed attention. I brought it in Saturday afternoon for what would have been a quick fix but guess what!! Everyone in the shop had decided to cut out a few hours early! So my ride was ruined! The whole reason for getting the bike down the drain!

At another shop I was denied use of their restroom while I was shopping in their store. I go out of my way to never shop there now. At least when I am shopping online I can walk across the hall to take a leak.

Last summer I had some emergency repairs to make so I could get off to a race 1000 miles away. Of course every bike shop in town was booked for weeks so I ended up driving all over town and then fixing the damn thing myself with inadequate tools just one day before the race. So much for the "but you need the mechanical support of the LBS......" cuz I have to do it all myself anyway if I want to keep the bike going mid season.

The LBS needs to be run like a real competative business or I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. Could a car dealership tell you that they would have to keep your car for a whole week to do some minor repair? 3 weeks? Hell no!

So LBS: modernize, streamline, compete before you get trampled by progress.

[ssk]

I believe this issue reared it's ugly head first in the early to mid nineties. Certain magazines would limit the number of items allowed to be published in an ad for mail order. Some notible mags(MBA) didn't agree with this policy and grabbed the ad $$$ for mail order firms.

How was the issue resolved then? It seemed to disappear or cool down for a while after Costco got busted for selling grey market Cannondales meant for the Chinese market. What can be done to reach a fair balance between retail and mail order? Many small companies rely on mail order for distribution.

[Flyin' Polack]

Just my 2 cents...
There are about 12 Bike shops within 30 miles of my house.
I've spent over $15,000 in one of them over the last 20 years.
And they won't even sponsor me, cut me deals, or even pro form anything for me!
NOT one of them has Hayes brake line for sale. "Uh, we can order it."
SO CAN I! And I won't "Mark up" my shipping charges!
2 of them carry Hayes pads 1 for $30, 1 for $40.
1 shop in the area carries Nokian Gazz Jrs. For $75.00!!!
None of the other ones have anything bigger than a 2.1!
I bought my SC Bullit in June from an LBS. They didn't even have any seat posts that would fit it!!!
So, I had to order one.
How about Hayes Levers?"Uh, we can order it."
321 rims? "Uh, we can order it."
Maxxis DH Tires? "Uh, we can order it."
Half of these clowns haven't even heard of Hope brakes!
As far as service... I do my own.
I won't trust my life to a fifteen year old who's getting paid $6.00/hr
Simply put. Racers can't afford to use the LBS!

[Roasted]

To be honest we have some awesome shops out here. Locals discounts, sponsorships they carry all the best equipment and most of them race. So they have true to life opinions not ones read in a magazine. I use one shop in particular. For a little beer here and there they give me discounts. When it comes down to purchasing items I need in the future I do shop in Vancouver or online. The shops (sorry guys) really can't compete with even the most basic prices in the city. The rent in a resort town is too high.

For quick jobs where I need the work done and opinion given I go lbs. If I am buying a frame or fork (over 1000$) I can usually save 35% just by going to the city. This is to big a margin to just ignore. If I decide to shop online I can even save as much as 50%.

Luckily the bike shop does know this and goes out of there way to save locals as much as possible. It keeps me coming back for 80% of the work I need done.

[Merwin5_10]

Originally posted by RideMonkey


The LBS needs to be run like a real competative business or I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. Could a car dealership tell you that they would have to keep your car for a whole week to do some minor repair? 3 weeks? Hell no!


RM, I absolutely agree with this statment. In your specific case, had I been treated this way in a LBS, I would seek business elswhere, too.

Hopefully, there is a good, reputable, service oriented LBS somewhere in Boulder. I can tell you that in some of the instances you described, I'd be firing people who treated my customers that way.

[NotAllThatYET]

[QOUTE]

The LBS needs to be run like a real competative business or I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. Could a car dealership tell you that they would have to keep your car for a whole week to do some minor repair? 3 weeks? Hell no!

So LBS: modernize, streamline, compete before you get trampled by progress. [/QUOTE]


<--speaking from 12 years marketing and add research, 5 years Shpg mgt, 1 R&D

Reality check fellas
Cant have it BOTH ways
Local good guy who cuts the good deals can get you anything but is often swamped and running a tight budget.
Streamline, mod shop who has gone big business doesnt NEED your input anymore. Franchisement gives power to "the MAN"


Small shops are usually swamped for work during start and last days of season. Especially the real little guys that the mechanic, distribution exec, inventory controller and sales associate are all rolled up into an owner and one employee.

Having an inventory of little ordered items "in-stock" (rarely can you just order one without taking a loss) is not Good Business You cant maintain with a bunch of items that are updated continually. You would need to take a loss on the leftovers at tax year end or when they are discontinued. I cant even keep my concentration because your whiny complaints floor me?
I gotta see the deal at the LBS my hub works out to get tthe "BIKE SPECIFIC" angle.
And for the one guy..$100 a year is not much. Heck I over a millionj in the past 15 years at McD's..you think THEY give a rats patoot?
Get some perspective...
Sure there are some crappy shops outthere with suck service. SO dont frequentt em. But dont nitpick EVERY inconveinience suffered as a personal affront!!
(And would use online fer some things..sure) Prefer to see and touch first

[NotAllThatYET]

Edit: floor me!!!

Edit: $1000.00 /year
(15000/15)


All other typos will be left;)

[Rustmouse]

Monkey seems to have a series of bad businesses around... Simple stuff like the restroom, minor repairs, and customer service are all part of owning a business (if they don't have time for the little stuff, they don't deserve to be in business)

The LBS I work at not only sells and fixes bikes, but it seems to have become the local MB hangout (they're putting in a coffee bar next month!)

The repair thing is a continuous problem, tho... we have 4 people (Including the owners) and the owner is currently the only mechanic in the store.. the rest of us can do the minor work and adjustments, but for anything serious.. it's him only. Which means, if you want yer wheels trued, brakes bled or shocks rebuilt... it's him... and he's doing this while promoting 12 races a year, building bikes, doing the books, paying the bills, ordering merchandise, selling bikes and taking time out to give advice to those that wish to do their own maintenance on their bikes...

If you're looking for a brake line for 2000 Hayes hydraulics, well, unfortunately we have to order it (and it shows up at our store in the same amount of time that the mail order places get it to you). We don't see a ton of broken brake lines, so it's not something that we can afford to keep in stock. Consider how much the technology has changed in the last 2 years alone! We cannot afford to have a huge inventory of spare parts just sitting there when nobody is using that seal/line/cable/tire whatever.
When we're doing the work, we end up cutting the amount of labor we charge you to keep the whole price of the job within reason ...

You order your parts online, get in over your head on repairs (or worse yet, break something during the job) then come to us to fix it, you want it yesterday, and you don't want us to charge you too much for it.

During prime biking season, everybody is breaking their equipment, wearing parts out and needing service... "I have a race this weekend" is a common complaint. So what do we do? If we put your job up front, we're postponing other jobs that those customers are just as anxious to have completed. (and every time there's a race locally, not only are we fixing a ton of bikes for it, but we're the ones promoting the race.. laying out the course, dealing with the local forest service people, fielding questions, fighting with the insurance/permit people etc).

Perhaps that is too much to put on our plate at once.. but in order to compete with the mail order guys, we have to do everything!

... Somewhere in there, we want to go riding ourselves, too! ...

We're not asking for charity (hell, if you don't have something to offer, then you shouldn't stay in business) Nor would I expect you to continue going to the LBS if they're a bunch of "Bike Snobs" who are too good to clean a toilet. What I do ask is look beyond just the price of the parts you're ordering. UPS costs money (it costs the LBS less money) and takes time. The good LBS owner will cut you a deal to try and match the mail order price. If you get a bum part from the LBS, you have someone close to yell at (I hate "Autoresponse from ..." customer service centers.). We have the incentive and obligation to make it right! If your LBS is not doing right by you, then it shouldn't be your LBS... Don't be fooled into thinking that the lower price is the only factor that matters!

I don't know what experience these others have in their area, but even my local bike snob shop has time for me! I was working on a customer's Huffy that was a basket case (and the bike was older than me!) I went to our competitor to find out about the part (cause they have a mechanic that was working on those things when they were new!) and even though I was working for a competitor, their mechanic took the time to dig the part out of their bicycle graveyard, and show me how to install and service it! If your LBS doesn't do that for you, then it's time to find another.

[Rustmouse]

That's a long damned rant... even for me..

[mrsdove]

I think that it's a fine line that we must walk as consumers and advocates of biking.

I'd be the first to admit that I'm a chronic bargain hunter, always looking for the best deal.

I've also seen my fair share of bad and even unethical service. I've seen shops swap the parts off a complete bike and replace them with used parts that they had laying around so they could sell the better parts.

Our rule as consumers is to save or kill a business. If a bike shop offers bad service or otherwise disrespects us, we don't bring our business. The main point though, is to find a shop that DOES do an extraordinary job and give them our business. Hopefully, most of us have a local shop that is actually worth of our business.

In closing, only support your LBS insomuch as they earn your business. Then give them all of it.

[Big Mack]

I believe in supporting the LBS. I have good relationships with a few, but the majority of my $ goes to one. These are the guys that will show me the Quality and BTI prices and give me a fair mark-up. These are guys that will fix my bike by the next ride and allow me to work in their stands using their tools. If I'm looking for a part which they don't have, they offer to take it off a bike on the floor. It takes time and trust to build this kind of relationship, but I can certainly now call them friends.

I've been to some of the LBSs who treat customers like sh!t. Screw those guys. If you can find a shop that is good to you, be good to them in return. If there isn't one that exists near you, then mail-order may be the only choice. There are mail-order shops w/ great service and relationships.

Just my $.02.

[VTinCT]

The starter for this thread is definately a well thought out, well written, and timely piece. But, I ask you, why, other than helping my LBS turn a profit, would I want to pay rediculously higher prices, for considerably slower service?:confused:

Yes, there will always be the father that needs the local shop to change his son's flat tire, but c'mon, $35 for an LX front derailer!? $25-40 an hour for labor!? My friggin car mechanic is cheaper!:rolleyes: Never mind the fact, that by the nature of the business, you're a mark from the moment you walk in, and you're always being pushed for the up-sell. No thanks.

Now, that said, there are those times that a break occurs, and you need the part NOW. Off to the LBS, and prepare to pay the price for convenience. Even then, I find that I need to drive close to an hour and a half to get to the one CT shop worth a damn (props to PEDAL POWER! ).

If I walk into your shop with a fork that I bought on-line, don't scoff at me when I ask you to cut it down, at least you're getting something out of the deal!

Take the power back I say! Learn to work on your own rig. It is both economical, rewarding, and safer.:thumb: Man, I can't rewmember the last item for my bike or my board that I got at a shop! With the initial investment of a few hundred dollars for a good tool set (more $$ over time;) :D ) I figure I've saved Sista Kreep and myself a few thousand dollers! Thats the profit that I care about! I have enough to worry about, without wondering how the guy that opened the LBS is doing....he took the risk, I don't need to pay for it.

Lets not get started on the crap that is hawked in shops these days too. Even at the highest end (on most bikes) on a showroom floor there are sub-standard parts, or crap house brand parts. I can't believe what $2000 CAN'T buy these days! You take that $2000 and do a little searching at Jenson, Cambria, or SuperGo, and that dollar buys you a sick custom bike, that is gonna out perform the shops offering.

There will always be a place for the local shop, but that place is beyond changing, it HAS changed. Deal with it, or find a new trade.

This is of course, one :monkey: 's humble opinion.

[Skookum]

Interesting thread. Personally i enjoy taking my business to my LBS as much as i can. That however doesnt keep me from using the leverage of online prices with them. There are plenty of people coming into the shop unaware of the cheap prices of parts at such and such a site. Too bad for them, what i do is let my LBS know and they almost always swing me a deal.
Even though I have only purchased 2 bikes from my LBS they see alot of my money if not in parts or bikes then from maintenance and my referal. This is not to say i havent given them money from parts, and bikes in some instances though.
My LBS doesnt have a huge inventory on stock but they do know alot about parts that are dependable and willingly give out info on these parts. Information is invaluable my mechanic see's the wounded bikes coming in from the front lines. So yes i see the best of both worlds, and yes i spend more to my convenience than to my responsibility of the fabric of the biking industry. But looking at it from this threads perspective and looking at my own spending habits i dont believe for a second that i will doom my LBS.
I think for the most part people on mt. bikes whether u ride for sport/passion/recreation that i have met are generally down to earth nice people. That i think is a primary key to the survival of our LBS's. Showin a newbie around a trail, being courteous to people on the trail so as not to have them closed, promoting biking by being gracious to all geourgous women who want to bike(cant go wrong there). More people who bike the better that's the real deal there.

[Tama]

I clicked ssk's signature and almost went mad...

Anyway, where was I - oh yeah, I've done my time at a LBS - 4½ years (3 years back admittedly,) and I thought I'd just jump in with something...

Last night I was at a trials competition, there was almost someone from every L.B.S. at the competition, some were helping out, some just hanging and chatting, a L.B.S. had also sponsored the event and donated some spot prizes.

Then today when I was doing shuttle runs with friends I bumped into a kru from one of the L.B.Ss taking their customers for shuttle runs - they'd sorted out transport and everything. I then went a rode an excellent 2km technical single-track which is maintained by a guy from another L.B.S. after a group from that L.B.S. built the track 5 years back...

...in my time behind the counter I gave large amounts of my time and energy to over 30 events (including a World Cup) - and it's still going on with other L.B.Ss ... that's one hell of a lot going back into the cycling community - and where are the mail-order companies when there's tracks to be built, rides to be organised or events to be run?

It sounds like some of you have had bad experience with bad service, that isn't a L.B.S. thing, that's an "employing idiots" problem (or a "managed by idiots" problem.)

But I can tell you, when it's 5pm on a Saturday and you've got thick grease wedged under your fingernails and haven't managed a bite to eat in 3 hours it's quite insulting to have someone try and screw you down on price "just because."

OK - rant over... :)

[Motionboy2]

Well I have a unique perspective here:
I worked at a normal LBS for years (www.loftsports.com) When I was there I did sales, I was a tech, I did the buying and I dealt with the customers.
Now I work at a mail order company (www.excelsports.com) Here, I am a sales guy and if so inclined I will do some minor service work.
My experiences have taught me a lot about this industry some of it surprises me in reality.
When I worked in a LBS I though that mail order companies are just a bunch of people sitting around taking orders, there is no way that they can know as much as those of us in the trenches out here dealing with interesting problems everyday and learning new stuff about all kinds of old and new product because of hands on experience.
I was wrong, the people I work with (and I am sure that this translates to most other companies as well) are the most knowledgeable people I have ever encountered. Working at a mail order company puts you in a position where you speak to at least 50 people a day. Those people all have their unique problems or projects. Each one of these you need to know what the solution is or be able to find out really quickly. Almost everyone at my shop can answer some of the most obscure questions. Not to mention that there is an abundance of product that flows through the building everyday. We get to see the latest and greatest in real life ,that most LBS’s only see in the catalog or magazines. Why do we want to know all this knowledge off the top of our head? In reality most mail order companies are paid on commission. So efficiency is a good thing. If I can tell you the front derailleur clamp size of just about any bike made or the BB type or what spring it is that you will need to make your campy ergolever shift again, and I can do that without going back and asking a mechanic then I have saved time and I can take another call. I want to know the answer to every question. (except the popular “what is the most comfortable saddle”)

So the point here is that Mail order shops can be very helpful if you are to the point and direct with what your problem or project is. An LBS is willing to go the extra mile (usually) to keep your business.
Both will continue to stay in the running and both I feel are necessary to the industry.

Also
OEM- yes it is original equipment for bike, but no mail order companies can not easily take advantage of this. (At least not in my experience) My example Rockshox: We have OEM RS products; if we are caught selling these products for a profit (not included on a fork) then we can loose our privileges to OEM equipment immediately. There are actually people that come into our showroom and occasionally attempt to buy an OEM fork because they were instructed to test us. Now at the end of season we are given permission to sell off the old OEM. Also if it is OEM then it is going to be stamped on the steer tube. If you buy a fork that you bought as a retail fork (not advertised as OEM) and it has a stamp that says something like Warranty void if installed as aftermarket product (or something like that) then you need to talk to the company you bought it from.

Gray market- Yes there are companies that buy stuff gray market, and in fact not all of them are small companies! However it is defiantly not the only reason that prices are so low in Mail order. It is all about quantity and whom you buy from. We buy Direct from Campy, Shimano etc and buy parts by the case or even the pallet. I know that our minimum order that we place on XTR chains is 500 units. That is our minimum!! When I worked at the LBS we would buy 20.

Oh and as far ar RM’s experience. Sometimes I don’t get it! There is no reason that a bike shop should hold a bike for a week for a small and simple procedure. In my opinion when I worked at The Loft, I had no desire to have extra bikes in the shop. I wanted them all out as fast as possible. Now conversely, Boulder is a unique place. There are so many riders in such a small area that it is amazing how quickly every one of the LBS’s gets packed full of projects. But just remember Beer always greases the wheels when you stop by an LBS. :D

[Fulton]

ok, maybe this has already been covered, I worked at a shop, I know what wholesale prices are. My question is, if it something the shop doesn't have in stock, ie, special order product, why can't they match mail order prices. For example, say i want to buy a fork that retails for $400. I can get it mail order for $350. wholesale/shop cost is shop $300. with the shops normal mark up, to put the product on the floor, they would charge full retail, or $400. For something that is already sold, why can't they match the mail order price and sell it to me for $350? Granted, they would only be making half their profit margin, but there would be no sales involved, all they would have to do is place 2 phone calls, one the the distributor, and one to me when the fork arrives. That $50 their making is alot better than the $0 they would make when I buy it from the mail order company.

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by Fulton
ok, maybe this has already been covered, I worked at a shop, I know what wholesale prices are. My question is, if it something the shop doesn't have in stock, ie, special order product, why can't they match mail order prices. For example, say i want to buy a fork that retails for $400. I can get it mail order for $350. wholesale/shop cost is shop $300. with the shops normal mark up, to put the product on the floor, they would charge full retail, or $400. For something that is already sold, why can't they match the mail order price and sell it to me for $350? Granted, they would only be making half their profit margin, but there would be no sales involved, all they would have to do is place 2 phone calls, one the the distributor, and one to me when the fork arrives. That $50 their making is alot better than the $0 they would make when I buy it from the mail order company.

With parts that can work sometimes but you have to understand that there is never 100% profit.
They get a fork for you at lets say $300
They pay the shipping of say $10
Now here is the strange part...On average in order to have a successfull bike shop you need to make approximatly 35% (from an old Bicycle Retailer article) inorder to pay all the bills and to keep yourself in the business.
35% of $300 is $105.
Now of course there are higher margin items and lower margin items but the thing is BIKES HAVE NO MARKUP.
The largest selling item has a markup of usually no more than about 30% (if i remember correctly, I havent played buyer in a while) their markup can be as low as 20% . THat really cuts into the overall scheme of things. Retailers like to protect prices so that it gives value to the product and so they can stay in business.

Does that help?

[Drunken_Ninja]

My local bike shop in Toronto charges 1% over cost on valuable parts and gives away most of the service for free. On new bikes...(3 years free labour)

I worked there 2 years for $8 CDN an hour never once getting a raise, watching unqualified people get hired above me while working for the lowest wages. When I finally said 'where is my piece of the action?', it was after had already quit.

They did pull in 60.1 million dollars a year with a loss of approximately 1.2million in shrinkage. (Giving away stuff, techs breaking stuff and theft)

I loved the business and working with the product. I managed to outlearn my co-workers in the shop. Good-luck with your future endeavours.

Ex-employee of Sporting Life Bikes & Boards Toronto, ON, Canada

I own my tools and I usually pay half price for bicycle deals everywhere I go and my bicycle is indestructable. Proficiency is a beautiful thing!

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by Drunken_Ninja
My local bike shop in Toronto charges 1% over cost on valuable parts and gives away most of the service for free. On new bikes...(3 years free labour)

I worked there 2 years for $8 CDN an hour never once getting a raise, watching unqualified people get hired above me while working for the lowest wages. When I finally said 'where is my piece of the action?', it was after had already quit.

They did pull in 60.1 million dollars a year with a loss of approximately 1.2million in shrinkage. (Giving away stuff, techs breaking stuff and theft)

I loved the business and working with the product. I managed to outlearn my co-workers in the shop. Good-luck with your future endeavours.

Ex-employee of Sporting Life Bikes & Boards Toronto, ON, Canada

I own my tools and I usually pay half price for bicycle deals everywhere I go and my bicycle is indestructable. Proficiency is a beautiful thing!

60.1 Million per year is...i would have to say a little more than a normal LBS but even so 1% over cost doesn't cover shipping let allone rent/morgage or employees. I think there must be something that you were overlooking. Maybe they had 1% markup on a select few items, or during a sale, but all the time! That would put you out of business in a hurry.

[RideMonkey]

My observations on common LBS service problems:

1. Mechanics who are also sales people. At a lot of shops every mechanic is also a sales person. I can remember many days where I would start a minor repair in the morning and not even finish that day because I was talking to customers. No wonder repairs never get done in a timely manner. Mechanics and sales people should be separate so the mechanics can do their jobs. If repairs get backed up mid-season, hire a drone to do repairs in the evening. I've done it. There are plenty of qualified mechanics out there that would do some evening work. This isn't rocket science.

2. You can't schedule a repair at a lot of shops. Thats right most shops don't allow you to schedule a few hours on a certain day. They need to have your bike for a solid week or longer so they can get to it when they get to it. No other service business could run this way. Not rocket science.

3. Hours. This is a recreational sport. What good is it to me if the bike shop closes every evening at 5:30, the same time I get off work? A lot of people leave early Saturday morning for a weekend excursion. I worked at one shop that stayed open until 9 Friday evenings to cater to the weekend warrior. This makes a lot of sense!!! Why is it that only 1 out of 10 bike shops understands that 9 to 5 are not good hours? One local shop is on the corner of a street that has a great deal of evening foot traffic. Many times I have found myself walking by looking into the windows, lots of people do. But are they open a few hours past the standard 5:30 closing time? Nope. This isn't rocket science.

The result of these issues is that I can't count on the LBS to support me during the season. I have to do it myself or I know that I will miss races, rides etc. So it follows that they will lose business to the mail order companies.

I have worked in bike shops for 5 years, and now I have been in a few other industries. One thing I know: you couldn't run any other business like a bike shop cuz you wouldn't make it.

Divide the shop into mechanical and sales people. Schedule repairs into blocks of time. Stick to this schedule at all costs. If this means mechanics have to stay after and hit the overtime then fine. Now you will say "that sucks for the mechanics"...... well would the mechanic think it sucked that hes getting paid 25% more because the shop is streamlined to the point that increased profitability results in increased pay? I think not. And guess whos doing this exact thing? Not the LBS but the mail order company. Excel Sports, which Motionboy works at, is a model for how things should be run. ie, employees focus on one thing and work hard at it and get good wages in the process. Its a modern, efficient business that benefits both consumer and employee.

[powderboy]

I've had this same quandary for years now. Since the advent of online shopping, I've been very loyal to JensonUSA and other online retailers for one simple reason... PRICE! It absolutely makes no sense to me to buy my parts somewhere and have to pay LBS prices and tax. I'm sorry, but I can install a new stem, wheelset, tires and plenty of other stuff myself.

We do have a great online/retail shop here in UT: AardvarkCycles.com. They are the ONLY shop I will go to in UT to have good work done. They do offer great prices and excellent service.

Good things about AardvarkCycles:
1. Allow you to piss in their bathroom :thumb:
2. Have a super knowledgeable staff
3. Have great prices and a good selection
4. Can order parts in quickly
5. Sponsor and schedule group rides and hangouts
6. They are an online/LBS...

Other shops in the area have outrageous prices and poor service.

I wish Aardvark had better hours though.

Sorry... my $$ goes to the online shops... And Wrenchscience.com builds an awesome, totally custom bike that I can't even dream of getting at a LBS.

[Shmoe]

I work at a small shop. 3 Employees (Owner, Head Tech, and me, the other bike tech)

I only work three or so days a week (depending on how busy it is) the owner is more of a runner, so he doesn't have the essentive to learn more about bikes. So he runs the shop, 1 day a week, which is the slowest day. That leaves the head tech, he has to run the shop almost 100% for the next five days (this includes bike overhauls, building wheels, tune-ups, bleeding brakes, dealing with customers, etc.) Its alot of work for one person.The shop cant afford to hire more people, so its either have a shop where you *might* have to wait for a day or so to get somthing done, or have no shop at all.

Lots of the time mail order places sell products below delear cost, so there is not way a shop is gonna lose money to get you a product.

Fulton said that he wonders why shops dont just give him the deal and make the $50. We'll when a shop does that, word gets out and a few things happen; People who already bought that product come back and want some of their money back, People who know you got the product for cheap try to bargin down even lower then cheap. When this stuff happens, its more hassel then its worth to make $50 or whatever.

Bike stores almost make no money on sales. Its all in bike maintence. 90% of the work most bike shops do it somthing like (Tune up brakes on bike from 1960, get bike shifter better, and put on a new driveside crank) wow, sounds like fun.

[azonicbruce]

Originally posted by powderboy
We do have a great online/retail shop here in UT: AardvarkCycles.com. They are the ONLY shop I will go to in UT to have good work done. They do offer great prices and excellent service.

Other shops in the area have outrageous prices and poor service.


I just HAVE to comment now! These comments hit home!

First off, my general take on this LBS vs. Internet is that MOST of the time, for parts that are expensive, online is where I go. If I ever do buy at the LBS, it's because either A) I ask and they are willing to try and match the online guys B) they have a part I need NOW and it's in stock or C) I do feel charitable and want to "support" them. This is because the way they've treated me makes me want to do so, a HUGE factor in if I want to "support" them or not.

About the "OTHER shops" in the SLC/Provo area here's my take on the ones I've had experiences with. Most of them are reasons why a DON'T go to LBS for parts or service. A few of them win my AWARD for EXCELLENCE:monkey:

Bingham's Cyclery in Provo: Bunch of Stoners!:evil: If you ever DO go in there, talk to the owner, Kevin. But even then I'd be leary. He'll tell you that everything they have there is the shiznit. When I was deciding between a Bullit frame and the 2002 Enduro frame, I went there since they were the Specialized dealer. He totally talked down SC and said they're going to go out of business if they keep selling frames so cheap. He kept talkin' about how Specialized "knows their sh*t" and talked it up like it was the best thing since apple pie. Hmm, two months later, Specialized recalls those frames.:think: Who knows what the CS would have been like with him. Regardless, I'm glad I chose the Bullit not because of the recall, but because it totally fit my style of riding better, AND I got it for less than the Enduro.

Taylor's Bike Shop: :nono: This gives a HOLE new meaning (no pun intended) to the phrase: bend over and grab your ankles:eek: :eek: !!!
1)Don't even THINK about asking to borrow a tool, not even an Allen wrench! They'll look at you like you asked them to kill someone.
2)Half their in-stock products are 3 years old and they're still trying to sell them for what they retailed back then.Once I went in there to get my steer tube cut on the new fork I was going to install. They said it'd be $3 because of "wear & tear" on the blade. OK, sure, sounds perfectly fair to me. When I was marking where the cut needed to be, one of the stupid mechanics kept hanging over my shoulder and INSISTED that I make the line a little bit higher, saying I need to be safe and not cut it too short. So fine, I put the line up higher. Then they cut it and I start to install it. Hmm, sure enough, it was too long. So I asked to cut it to the correct length, and they said it'd be ANOTHER $3!!! WTF??? $6 is nothing, but the fact that they wanted to charge me TWICE, when they were the idiots who told me where to make the first cut! I've got numerous other stories about how retard Taylor's is but I'll spare you all.

Outdoors Unlimited: This "shop" is a complete ABOMINATION.:stupid: These guys are complete IDIOTS!! Idiots, I tell you! Don't EVER, EVER go there to have your bike worked on. You might just end up in a body cast!:dead:
I shrink in horror to think that Ellsworth actually allowed them to be "authorized" dealers.

Aardvark Cycles: Ditto what powderboy said!:thumb: The ONLY place I go to get work done, and that's only because I don't have all the tools (ie headset press/remover, truing stand). Very friendly. Knowledgeable? Well, most of the time. I've heard them say a few wacky things. John, Travis, Blain...they're all great guys.

1) You don't have to fear asking about price matching. They're willing to hear you out. Sometimes they'll do it, sometimes they won't. Sounds fair to me.
2)If you need a small odd part, like a bolt or cable ferrule, they'll usually just give it to you for free, unlike Taylor's (about $2 each)
3)They'll let you use their tools. I've been lucky enough that they let me use their truing/dishing tools to build my wheels!!!

About "Can order parts quickly". Well, that's only if you hound them. John is notorious for spacing out. He'll forget unless you keep calling them/reminding them. Make sure you specify as well, or you'll get something you didn't order. Otherwise, this is the best LBS bar none in Provo.

Bike Peddler (American Fork): These guys are total PRICKS!!:eviltongue: Again, when I was deciding between Bullit/Enduro I went there since they're the SC dealer. I asked if they had any in Medium or Small that I could Test ride. They told me "Are you kidding? We're not going to let you test ride one, they're too nice a bike. Besides we don't have any that size " WHAT the :devil: ??? So let me see,:think: you expectto plunk down $1100 without even Test Riding it? Give me a f:dead: :dead: king break!!!
Later, when I did have a Bullit (I ended up getting it off eBay) I needed to swap my 450lbs spring for a 500. I called them and they said it's be $45. I asked if they could swap me for mine, since it was BRAND NEW and a genuine Fox spring. They said absolutely not. Besides, they said, no-one would ever need one. What??? A 450lbs spring, which according to SC is for those who weigh 140-180 lbs? Yeah:rolleyes:, NOBODY fits into that category. I could understand if it was truly something they couldn't get rid of, but there's plenty of people who could have used the spring. Just go in there and talk to them yourselfs; total attitude.

T&T Bike and Ski: If you must buy from a SC dealer, these are the guys. TALK to TRUDY!!! She frickin' rocks!!! These guys WERE willing to let me trade my 450lbs spring for a 500lbs one, even though I didn't purchase my Bullit frame from them. In return I went ahead and paid $25 for them so switch my headset/fork from my previous bike, AND I paid them RETAIL for a Thomson seatpost. Again, it's HOW PEOPLE TREAT YOU that makes you willing to pay more!!!

Go-RIDE: These guys kick BUTT!!:D :thumb:

1) While not always as cheap as other internet sites, these guys have the best prices of ANY LBS in the Utah Valley. Some items are the best deal on the net.
2) While any of the guys there could run circles around most riders anywhere, they DON'T HAVE and ATTITUDE. Scott and Kripsy are some of the NICEST guys I've ever met.
3) When I was shopping for a DC fork they let me ride a Balfa 2 step w/ LR-1 and an Azonic Eliminator w/ Super T, and I don't remember even giving them a driver's liscence!
4) I bought a Titec El Norte saddle on eBay. I got and and realized I'd rather have the Berserker DH. I called them up and they said I could trade it, plus $10. You see! Even though my saddle was worth more, I was willing to do it because THEY were willing to work with me and get me what I wanted.


SOOOO, If I had to give an AWARD of EXCELLENCE to LBS, it would be:

Go-RIDE and Aardvark Cycles tied for 1st place

T&T Bike and Ski for 2nd

Wow, that was long:o:

[Rustmouse]

That's really the key to the LBS survival... you don't see the mail-order companies flogging through the forest posting arrows on trees the week before the race, you don't see a mail order company running shuttle rigs on the weekends on a break-even basis to promote mountain biking, you don't see mail order companies searching bicycle graveyards for a 70's shimano 3 speed part so they can fix your antique, you don't drop in to your mail order shop to find out about other trails in the area because yours have become stale, you don't get to test ride a mail-order frame to make sure it's gonna fit you, you don't roll into a mail-order place for a quick diagnosis of yer ride/bike/mechanical problem... and so on....

The LBS will probably always be the domain of the small operator because of the customer base they have available. By the same token, however, the mail-order places don't have to offer services that customers basically take for granted (and expect to be free)

As far as the auto business vs. bike business... Keep in mind, there are something like 100 times as many cars on the road as bicycles. There are auto parts stores on every street corner, and the volume of parts business they do means that they can afford to keep most parts in stock (or 24 hours away). Auto shops charge anywhere from $55 to $100 an hour for shop labor, and they bill using the "Book", a list of the estimated hours it would take for a total neophyte to complete an automotive task (3 hours to change an alternator on a Ford... last one took me 24 minutes, including the trip to get the part).

You're better off comparing bike shops to another type of recreational shop, like motorcycle repair... there you'll see that similar problems exist.. not every part in stock, you can't guarantee a cycle will be done by 5pm tomorrow, you can't just run down to Pep Boys and pick up a new chain for it, etc...

I wish we could guarantee that something a customer wants will be there in 24 hours or less...

All I can do is ensure that I do my best for them.

I don't expect you to pay high prices if there's an alternative, but then you can't expect me to have everything you want in stock when you want it (cause you keep going elsewhere for it) Repairs are the main thing that a bike shop has to ensure profitability, but you can't keep a good tech if you only have him part time.... and with bikes, the work usually dries up when the weather turns sour. Consequently, your bike may take longer (especially when there's a basket case huffy that got turned in ahead of yours) and we can't predict exactly when it'll be done. I could always ask you to wait to break your bike until the winter, when we have more time and less work, then we'd be able to promptly get your bike serviced...

[NotAllThatYET]

I already had my defend the underdog thread, and one person, the NZer said it best again.


Your local LBS is usually very instrumental in keeping local trails bike -friendly and open ( with conjuction of Clubs or by their lonely selves)

They are the one that sponser the local races that you learn to get good enough to ride and be allowed to compete in profesional races.


Where would ANY famous rider be without his first small sponsers that got him noticed by the big guys.

Name me THREE internet companies that are not the actual producers of th eproduct that promote races Big or Small.

It is usually the kronies of ONE of your LBS who end up with trail maintainence.!

Internet isnt evil and a good deal isn't gonna break the retail industry.

[NotAllThatYET]

edit: finish statement....





BUT, one must accept and support the place of the LBS in the Mtn. Biking ecosystem.
Don't want to make them a spotted owl of biking, but neither do we want to nearly eradicate them like the wolf only to find they had a key in keeping their chain of life healthy!

[Serial Midget]

Stop your stinking whining! When I am saving $$$ on bicycle parts I am not spending it on filet mignon!!! I am spending it on MORE BIKE PARTS! More is better for me and the bike industry! Most of what I buy for upgrades I really don't need but I'll buy them if the price is right cause I are American! Right now I have 5 bikes and a pretty new frame that needs to be built, if my LBS isn't making money off me it's not my fault - it's theirs!

Uh... is it OK for consumers to rant too?:confused:

[Eng-Rider]

The other day I was having the freehub body on my wife's beater replaced at our LBS and I thought to myself; how does this place stay in business? The whole shop is filled with crapped out Huffys and older name brand bikes that the owner sends to Africa as humanitarian service. He stocks about 10 bikes (Diamondbacks or Univegas) and has a couple of shelves of very low end parts that I wouldn't put on my bike if I was a hobo.

After a moment it came to me. The reason the shop stays in business (for the last 18 years) is Fred. Fred is the Owner/Mechanic and his wife and kids help out most afternoons when the business picks up. Although his shop is filled with crap, he has a nice set of tools hanging on the wall and even if he had never heard of Chris King, he had my rear hub apart and fixed in about 10 minutes.

I do most of my own maintenance, but if I have a seriously tweaked wheel, need a bottom bracket chased or need my road bike tuned (me tuning a road bike is ridiculous) I head down to Olympic Bike and Skate. Fred generally fixes everything on the spot and the last tune up for my road bike cost me $19! - including new brake pads. The freehub body replacement cost me $25 including parts. He couldn't get the freehub body replaced in time for a ride I was doing with the Boy Scouts (one of them was going to use my wife's beater) so he loaned me one of his bikes for free.

His wife told me that after 18 years of business they own their house, all their cars, the shop and the three adjacent shops and have a good amount tucked away for retirement. She thanked God for their good fortune and that may very well be a part of it. However, she should also thank their good business practices that have lead to many, many repeat customers.

Sure, I buy most of my parts online. If I have a sticky problem, however, I go down and see Fred. I also encourage my friends and associates to patronize his shop. Olympic Bike and Skate is by far the crappiest looking shop I have ever been in, but it has the best service and repair that I have ever seen either.

Sort of the best of both worlds, support your LBS and still save money.

[NotAllThatYET]

Still waiting to hear 3......?

Though the I thought the original intent of the story was asking WHY you should support the LBS a little heavier than mail order, NOT is mail order cheaper and is cheaper better.

As a consumer I want cheap too, but I dont buy grey market anything.
I no longer have my beaverskin coat (would be jacket length now-I've grown 4 inches in height) nor my leaopard (full length, size 10) one for the same reasons. They WERE perfectly legal when they were first assembled and sold. But their beauty and currrent illegal status would make other want them too. They became blackmarket items, so I burnt them.(And I am not no greenie I like STEAK and FUR)

Any site that sells shimano cranks cheaper than Shimano itself should be suspect for sure. And OEM marketeers can sell cheaper than wholesale distributers (and of course retail) and still make marginal profit. Who can compete with that? But it is a fly-by-night business. I would like to buy that whole lot of santa cruz bullits that were meant for scrap and destruction and sell them to you for profit, hey $400 each! Only cost me the price in scrap metal! oh no, i cant do that..it's wrong. Well how about the frames I got cheap at OEM. I will make my site called "Da Parts Stor". I don't guarantee them or assemle em, just seel em cheap to you!.......Ect. Get the point?

And retail will always have A markup. Can't be helped. Overhead(that convienient location and building) will always need a small bite.

Who said anything about supporting the LBS to the point of puttin his kids in Harvard?
If he has a obviously greedy mark-up, then it can't be helped. If you think you were gouged..SAY SO!
Maybe it was mismarked? Maybe there was an added "employee charge" (Can happen in any type of small shop, and big. Even a K-Mart can catch an employee dippin the til or doing price mismarking).

Once you start namin names of a shop, it would only be fair to be sure of the problem and why. Was it a bad employee and do they STILL work there? Was it just you or a couple unlucky few, or is it gross mis-management and unethical practices?
And a good LBS will bend over backwards to make up for a mistake on their part.
Our town has several good shops. I favor one above all and am totally against only 1.
Good odds. Each has things that make them not quite the "perfect" shop. The one I favor, I put contant consumer input and suggestion to. And I am thrilled to see evovle to a superior form!
On the other hand, if the Mgr/owner looks you in the eye over a problem caused by them and says tough titty? Dont GO BACK!
On my local board, I shamelessly plug my favorite local shop by name, and without dissing the other shops, saying they suck or anything.
As a consumer/kronie it is up to me to help word-of -mouth and make sure the reputation stays platimum. That means making complaints on the less sterling aspects(so they change!)
:D
I RAVE not RANT. I am not angry, I'm just a lobbyist and advocate. Opinions are still just that. But it is always good that the whole picture is presented before molding an opinion in iron.
(and that's prolly why I am so long winded-
Ive been an actual Lobbyist before)

[NotAllThatYET]

So that one phrase doesnt cause a problem to the narrow reader.....
It cant be helped.....CHANGE
It can be helped-dont pay it.

My settings loses my place a lot-dern mac!
So I have to reregister a lot and lose my posts for editing:o:

[Merwin5_10]

Originally posted by Nobody
This will probably choke me to death, but here's my 8 cents worth.

...

Rant over.

Get out of the industry. You seem bitter and angry. If this is true, how could you focus on making people excited about riding?

In my experience, it doesn't matter what you know. Its how you relate what you know to others and how you service there needs. I know dozens of top grade mechanics that I would'nt hire to change my tire because their attitudes are elitest, smug and condesending. Who needs that?

[Just Lookin'...]

Originally posted by Merwin5_10


Get out of the industry. You seem bitter and angry. If this is true, how could you focus on making people excited about riding?

In my experience, it doesn't matter what you know. Its how you relate what you know to others and how you service there needs. I know dozens of top grade mechanics that I would'nt hire to change my tire because their attitudes are elitest, smug and condesending. Who needs that?



So what you're saying is that all any bike shop needs are friendly, helpful people who work for about 8.50/hr and can't build wheels, and tells the customer, in a pleasant, helpful way, that his Psylo fork needs to go back to Rock Shox because the 'damping has blown'.

You're also saying that the best mechanics you know have the worst personalities. hm. nothing to say there, I think, since I used to be a mechanic.

So, happy friendly people with little to no knowledge of the rising complexities of bicycle technology are key to keeping an LBS afloat.

If you feel that you are more than knowledgeable enough to handle virtually any repair, I cannot disagree. You probably CAN do all that, and more. So all you need is a few zesty, youthful trail-maintenance-volunteers who love working with people and your position in the bicycle world is inviolate.

Well, you ARE god.

What I've seen too much of, though, is the abysmal pay for 'wrenches' to work in shops that PURPORT to be High-Tech Mountain Bike Specialists, or some such rot.

A guy I know has an XCR Idrive. He kept getting a 'squeaking' noise out of the rear shock, so he took it back to the shop he bought it at and they 'greased' the pivot bearings. It was a Fox, utilizing DU bearings (I won't go into the reasons why you don't grease DU bearings) but the greasy muck attracted a lot of grit. The bushings wore out and the squeaking returned. They greased it again. And away he went.

About here is where he told me about it. I told him he needed, at the very least, new bearings and reducers. I asked if he'd mind me looking at his bike. Fine. I did. During a simple test, I discovered that the frame was buckling.

Why did I check for frame alignment? A) I know too much about XCR-Idrives buckling at the shock mount. B) DU bearings don't squeak. The squeak came from an unbalanced side-load on the reducers, causing them to creak.

But the guys at the LBS sure were friendly.

Well worth the 7-9 bucks an hour they cost the owner. 'Course, now they have to warranty a frame that could have been saved in the first place, but hey, that's just the cost of doing business.

[Str8Dwn]

I had a really great experience with a LBS and a manufacturer this weekend I thought everyone should know about.

Story: I needed a fork asap for this weekend, as the fork I ordered from Planet-X didn't arrive on time. Buying older fork from his race team.

I also ordered a wheelset from Atomic Labs in enough time for it to arrive for the weekend, and they were shipped ground, so I wouldn't see them until after he weekend, ie. no ride.

Atom Labs overnighted me another wheelset no charge. :thumb:

I call a LBS, Reality Bikes in North GA, and one of their mechanics, Dave, has just the fork I need (at his house 45 minute drive each way). He goes home to get it, meets me at the shop (this is Friday afternoon BTW). He installs the fork no charge, then sees that I ordered the wrong wheelset (front hub). I needed a QR20 hub, instead of the normal 20mm. The owner of the shop says he can re-lace the entire wheel, and does using the existing spokes and new QR20 hub. NO CHARGE! By this time its 5:00pm on a Friday, and no one complained about helping out and staying late. These guys defintely deserve some thanks, and they should receive a nice case of their favorite beer this week as thanks.

I am in the bike industry, and when I do have the cash for a new Bullit, I plan on buying it from them at retail if they ask me to pay that much. Without their help, I wouldn't have been able to ride at all.

Thanks!
Ryan

[Merwin5_10]

Originally posted by Just Lookin'...




So what you're saying is that all any bike shop needs are friendly, helpful people who work for about 8.50/hr and can't build wheels, and tells the customer, in a pleasant, helpful way, that his Psylo fork needs to go back to Rock Shox because the 'damping has blown'.
....



Read into this whatever you like.

What I am saying is that knowing alot about bikes does not give you the right to be disrespectful to anyone. If you have a problem with what you are paid, take it up with your employer, not out on the shop's customers. If you are still not happy, get out.

Its interesting that some techs I've spoken to act as if they posess this elusive gift of mechanical affenity that "mere mortals" are incapable of attaining. Get real, I hire people that have supperior service skills, a strong interest in biking, at least two years experiecne in the industry (sales, service, etc.) AND a superior attitude. You'll notice, please, that knowing which end of a screwdriver goes where is only part of the equation. Some people completely lack the other components. I DON'T NEED THEM. I DON'T WANT THEM.

If that makes me a god. So be it. Its my job to ensure my customers TRUST the people they meet at my shop. When a hot headed tech pops off in an offensive way, or acts out of frustration towards them, or in any way allienates them by what is said or done, that trust is damaged. And I appologize, but that's just not acceptable to me.

[Just Lookin'...]

Originally posted by Merwin5_10


Read into this whatever you like.

What I am saying is that knowing alot about bikes does not give you the right to be disrespectful to anyone. If you have a problem with what you are paid, take it up with your employer, not out on the shop's customers. If you are still not happy, get out.

Its interesting that some techs I've spoken to act as if they posess this elusive gift of mechanical affenity that "mere mortals" are incapable of attaining. Get real, I hire people that have supperior service skills, a strong interest in biking, at least two years experiecne in the industry (sales, service, etc.) AND a superior attitude. You'll notice, please, that knowing which end of a screwdriver goes where is only part of the equation. Some people completely lack the other components. I DON'T NEED THEM. I DON'T WANT THEM.

If that makes me a god. So be it. Its my job to ensure my customers TRUST the people they meet at my shop. When a hot headed tech pops off in an offensive way, or acts out of frustration towards them, or in any way allienates them by what is said or done, that trust is damaged. And I appologize, but that's just not acceptable to me.


So, you assume that I must have been one of those boorish, elitist, rude and uncaring 'technocrats'?

Actually, I spent most of my time servicing customers. Yep. Free work, i went to several people's homes to follow-up on repairs that weren't up to spec, and brought them coffee and pastries while they waited. If any customer wasn't satisfied with a repair, I didn't charge them for it. This wasn't about bleeding disc brakes - it was tune-ups on 20-year-old POS's that wouldn't work any better with or without a tune-up. If we fixed a flat tire and the customer came back within 24hrs with another flat, we'd fix it for free.

We'd special order anything for anybody and never charged the freight. If we didn't have it in stock, well, we took it on the chin, but the customer got the stuff they wanted. If the special order took more than one week to arrive, we called the company for an update and then called the customer.

I did volunteer work with all the local public schools and the Sheriff's dept when they had their Bicycle Safety Rodeos. On my own time, I tightened bottom brackets, adjusted brakes, adjusted gears, pumped tires, and checked hubs on over 420 kid's bikes.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.

[Merwin5_10]

Quite the contrary. You'll notice I've made no direct comment toward you. I don't know you. I commented on my experience. If it hits home, my appologies. I am not trying to get personal. And I've made not assumptions about you at all. I have noticed that you seem to be taking my posts personally.

I am not targeting individuals here. But based on what people are writting on this thread, the hostility some people are displaying (not addressing you here), and obvious frustration and discontent they have, I am beginning to understand how service falls short in many shops.

Understand what I am saying. I see people equate time spent in this industry as proof positive that thay are the best. I know one tech that can tell you the thread pitch of just about any BB on any bike produced. It amazes me what he remebers. But if you were to ask this guy yourself why he hasn't been able to keep a job for longer than 4 months, he will tell you he has a tempter. He once told a customer to f**k off because the customer questioned his repair.

!?!?!?!?

Add to this the service RM has described in the shops he visits. It paints a very poor picture of our industry. Having a strong vested intrest in seeing this industry succeed, it concerns me to hear these things.

[Serial Midget]

MR MERWIN

From my vantage point of many states away :D and only having your posts to go on... you seem to be at war with your customers. Based on this thread I would not be comfortable dealing with you on a business level. My LBS is going through the same crap you are but they do not blame the consumer, nor do they expect the consumer's undying loyalty. They have been in the bicyle business since 1908 and have always been a small independent.

Since I do not know you and would not likely have the 'opportunity' to do business with you, my observation probably does not matter. I can assure you that I am fair minded and level headed - I do not begrudge any business person a fair profit. I would, however, seek alternate sources if I felt my LBS was not appreciative of the business I brought them.

[Merwin5_10]

How did you come to this conclusion?

The only tension I've been involved with in this thread is with shop employees. Not with customers. Maybe go back and re-read the posts. As to customer undying loyalty, read my intial post again. My intention was to get people thinking about a very hot topic in the bike community. I feel it has been affactive. I, for one, have gotten a ton of information about how different people see bike shops, the bike biz and how they forsee the future of bicylce retail. All this information helps me to do my job better. I don't see this as war.

[Just Lookin'...]

Originally posted by Merwin5_10
Quite the contrary. ...etc.

Key Point- "I know one tech that can tell you the thread pitch of just about any BB on any bike produced. It amazes me what he remebers. But if you were to ask this guy yourself why he hasn't been able to keep a job for longer than 4 months, he will tell you he has a tempter. He once told a customer to f**k off because the customer questioned his repair."


Let's both take a very deep breath.

ahhhhhhhhhhhh <wait for it> haaaaaaaaaa.

I'm sorry if I came across as an aggrieved victim - that wasn't my point.

Your point, up there, is 100% true-to-life, I'm afraid. Sack that biatch!

What was MY point? I'm afraid I came into the conversation half-way, so let me start over.

I like dealing with people - all kinds - and I've been in retail for 20 years (not just bike shops).

And I agree that no one, no matter how 'technically inclined' should treat consumers with anything other than politeness, respect and consideration.

What I've read here seems to be a bit mis-construed, so I'll try to define what I see and what I think is the case.

MO vs. LBS
MO is not going to go away. It's too convenient for too many people. It is not the be-all and end-all, but it is a COMPONENT in the Bike Biz, like it or not.

LBS's need to be 'Members Of the Community' in order to hold onto market share, thrive, survive, what-ever. In my town, there's a road-bike shop (only high end) that has a couch and a wide screen tv that shows tapes of Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Paris-Roubaix, Worlds, Nationals, etc. The guy who owns the place is also the only one who works there. He is a medium-quality mechanic (I've fixed some of his Campy builds - he needs some finesse, it's true), but he is a very personalble guy and very willing to work with his customers on price. He's into all the local rides, and is really good with people, even though he's an ex-racer.

Way down the street from him is another bike shop, a new one, that wants a piece of the road bike market. The guy running the shop is a total KoCK - super-opinionated and self-righteous. I've never had a direct run-in with him (I don't ride road enough) but virtually everyone I know who rides road has a negative experience to relate.

Guess which shop is not at all nervous? Yep. The Good Guy.

However, I've known two guys who worked for him. Both liked him, but both told me this: He doesn't want to pay someone to build bikes when he can do it himself. When he's really busy, he'll pay these guys minimum wage.

Now, he's perfectly right to do this. It's his business and the general results are apparent - he owns the road bike biz in THIS town! However, he's only a so-so mechanic. Fine. I make money on my off-days fixing some of his builds. Good for me. Whatever. I wish him every success.

It does tell me, though, that he doesn't really give a krap about technical excellence and absolutely devalues anyone who is a 'mechanic'.

What I'm saying, I hope, is that there are a few rewards for working in the bike biz - one of them is getting to play with toys you love, and sharing this with other, like-minded people. If you like people, it gives you the chance to make their lives better by improving their freedom (I've helped many impaired adults with modifications to their bikes that allow them to ride, again, when they can barely walk - it's like a real religious experience, let me tell you!)

But face the facts - the economy doesn't give a break to bike shop rats any more than it does to anyone else.

Bicycle Retailer had some interesting data on this subject, although I can't find it on their site right now, that indicated the median wage for an LBS manager to be around 26k/yr. The US Dept of Labor reports the mean annual wage for 'bicycle repairers and servicers' (#49-3091) was, for 2000, $18,810. This is $2000 less than the mean annual wage for generic sales personnel - Sears, Banana Republic, Gap, Speedy Auto Parts, Pep Boyz, etc.

It is $4000 less than the average door-to-door salesman.

I am not trying to beat up on any owner of any bike shop. relax, 'k?. What I am trying to point out is that for an intelligent, well-spoken, adept and responsable person, being an employee in a bike shop requires significant sacrifice. Right now, 90% of the guys I know who work in the local shops share accommodation. If they're not living with Mom. Yeah, they sometimes have nice cars or trucks, but they don't keep the roof up over their heads all by their little lonesomes. One guy I know, 41, this year, excellent mechanic and fabulous with customers, has to keep his wife working because they can't afford not to. Yet she's on anti-depressants and suffers terribly from stress and really should quit her job and take a year off - but she can't, because he only makes about $28,000 a year. Rent is about 1/2 that. And he's the Manager of one of the biggest shops in the county.

Here is the problem, as I see it - the industry isn't healthy. It can't support, at the retail end, people who want to start and raise a familly, send their kids to college, take vacations once in a while, own a home.

Okay, slam me. You guys in some parts of the US/Canada CAN do all of the above. Fine. That's the exception, not the rule. Likely houses there don't go for $420,000 for a freaking 1-bedroom cottage, but SoCal is famous for that. (okay, leave SoCal, it's cheaper in Idaho - you ever been to Idaho? In the Winter? Phuck it, I'll top that - I'm off to Alaska! - oh, wait, bike season is only 4 weeks. Bummer.)

So, LBS's get short-changed too often and end up with employees they shouldn't have. Then, LBS's get a bad rap.

I believe Merwin5_10 runs a shop the way I would like to see ALL shops run - I would support such a shop by sending every and all bike-customer-chums to its front door.

However, the majority of shops are the reverse, and I beleive it is attributable to an industry-wide 'deficit' of training, certification, education, and testing. This, of course, costs money. And I find that very few LBS-Owners (that I have met and interacted with over the past 18years) would consider it an 'investment' as opposed to the prevalent view of 'loss-expenditure.'

Not ranting - trying to make a point - If I'm wrong, clobber me.

Also, I disagree with Serial Midget's feeling that Merwin has ANY problem with his customers - quite the contrary, I believe he's very respectful and courteous to them. I think maybe there's so much stuff going on in this thread that it's a bit confusing who is saying what to whom.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Merwin5_10
How did you come to this conclusion?


I admit this is from another thread that had similar content but they are your words:

“Did you say bend over and get raped? You are right. That's exactly what happens when internet customers come in and we price match to an online source that pays 1/10 of what I do for the same product. I loose money to maintain your business because its worth more to keep you as a customer than the $50 bucks I lost on a part sale. Who gets raped? I do. When the base of my customers expect this. And if I choose to continue to price match to mail order vendors, I go out of business and RM can accuse me of being behind the times. From there, you guys feel free to call each other for info on how to fix you bikes. My techs will be a KFC filling your buckets. You want gravy with that?”

If I knew my LBS felt this was about me would make me very uncomfortable. I am far from my LBS’s best customer but I have spent over $3,000.00 on bike bits with them this year and a similar last year. Prior to that maybe $500.00 a year. I am also smart enough to know that customers like me do not show up everyday. Keep in mind that I have never purchased a built bike from them, all my $$$ are for parts and service. Expensive parts with decent margins: if the part costs them $100.00 including shipping then I pay $150.00 + tax. A fair deal for me and a decent profit for them. If my mechanic had written what you did I am pretty sure I would not go back. I like to think I am valued as a customer.

[Serial Midget]

Hmmm. Can't edit my last post for typos and missing words... whats up? Oh well. One more post credit.:D

[Merwin5_10]

Lookin'-

In agreement. The industry is unhealty. It rears its head in many forms, non of which are comforting.


Midget-
Although way out of context, true, they are my words. So goes the balance between crucial profits needed to stay in business and sacrificing those profits to ensure customer satisfaction. If this means I'm at war with customers, i disagree. If you were not valued as a customer, the deal would not have been cut. You would have been asked to pay full price, damned be the consequences. I believe that, very possibly misunderstood, my post does represent the frustration lbs's experince associated with deciding the right thing to do; for the customer, for the business, for the industry.

I guess I think to myself, if going into surgery, I'm not gonna barter price. If being defended in court, I'm not looking for the lowest bidder. If a guy fixes my Air Conditioner, its gonna cost me. But if I want to buy a bike or parts, its all negotiable.

That's just me. IMHO.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Merwin5_10
...I guess I think to myself, if going into surgery, I'm not gonna barter price. If being defended in court, I'm not looking for the lowest bidder. If a guy fixes my Air Conditioner, its gonna cost me. But if I want to buy a bike or parts, its all negotiable.


If my AC was wacked I would get bids from 3 contractors and go with the one I felt most comfortable with. All things equal and I'm going with the lowest price. You must agree that the bike business is not 'surgery' or legal represenation...

I like a good deal on my little luxuries.:D I don't know about your shop but in my LBS it is very difficult to buy off the shelf as they cater to the mid to low range. I am not super high end but I do buy things that are not normally in stock, my purchases are based on the best I can afford at the time I order it. If I get a good deal I'll order higher quality stuff.

My last project was a complete rebuild on my Serotta road bike. All my LBS had to do was order the stuff I picked out of the catalog. Their cost was just under $1000.00, my cost including tax was around $1600.00, their mark up was $455.00 over the actual invoice, shipping was free on all orders over $500.00 so that was not an issue. Everything I purchased was priced below MSRP and competitive with catalog and internet prices. For no risk involved and a 24 hour turn around, I think that kind of margin is fine.

I cannot imagine how you would loose money on special orders, you'll know what it will take to be profitable as you negotiate the order. If you cannot meet the price your customer will not be angry, they'll be happy because you tried too - you might even make the sale anyway.

[Merwin5_10]

Originally posted by Serial Midget


If my AC was wacked I would get bids from 3 contractors and go with the one I felt most comfortable with. All things equal and I'm going with the lowest price. You must agree that the bike business is not 'surgery' or legal represenation...



No, its a business. Much like the Dr.'s office, or the lawyers fees for representation. BUT, since we retail things people use for fun activities, we have'nt the right to charge full price. I feel like at times customers have the conception we are out to screw them. I am probably wrong, but it feels like it simetimes.

BTW-in terms of mark up. (Honest question here, no flaming.) What is a good deal. From shop perscpective, I consider a good deal 10 -15% off retail. (Bear in mind, this in many cases is a third of my profits.) So, what is a good deal from a customer's perspective?

[Serial Midget]

When I buy off the shelf I get a 20% discount without asking. Not on built bikes though... not enough margin there.

When ordering from my LBS distributor catalog I am happy with their 50% mark-up but I always try to piggyback so that we can both take advantage of free shipping.

You and I both know that MSRP means squat, it is just a means to make the consumer feel good when they appear to be getting it for less...:D

It also depends on the final price, you can't expect much discount on a $20.00 sale... the higher the $$$ the sweeter the deal. I also feel that I must pay in cash and never by CC otherwise I am not holding up my end of the bargain. Iam always up front and honest - I don't waste my LBS's time unless I actually plan to purchase.

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by Rustmouse
That's really the key to the LBS survival... you don't see the mail-order companies flogging through the forest posting arrows on trees the week before the race, you don't see a mail order company running shuttle rigs on the weekends on a break-even basis to promote mountain biking, you don't see mail order companies searching bicycle graveyards for a 70's shimano 3 speed part so they can fix your antique, you don't drop in to your mail order shop to find out about other trails in the area because yours have become stale, you don't get to test ride a mail-order frame to make sure it's gonna fit you, you don't roll into a mail-order place for a quick diagnosis of yer ride/bike/mechanical problem... and so on....


See i don't agree. I know that there are several teams that are run by mail order catalogs, there are lots of clubs that are sponcered by them and there are many events that they put on and volunteer at. You may not live near a mail order catalog so you don't get the exposure. Here in Boulder, Excel (which i work for) holds a couple races, mostly crit's because Excel is mostly a road shop. We sponcer a cat 1&2 team that is very competative and we volunteer at many of the races in the area even if we are not running it. You may or may not be able to testride a bike here but how many bike shops will take full body measurements, Make sure that the frame size is correct and explain the geometry of a bike and how different top tubes or angles will affect your specific fit. Not to mention give you a fit to the bike, making sure that every detail is taken into consideration. I know most shops that i walk into or have walked into in the past have generally said "stand over it, you should have 1 inch of clearance on a road bike and 2 inches on a mountain bike"

People in the mail order end of things want to know what is going on, they want to know as much as possible and the reason is because they are not making minimum wage. They are making good money and they love what they are doing.

Oh and if you can't come into the showroom then most mail order shops (the ones that know about cycling) will give you instructions as to how to get the measurements that are required and they will give you recomendations from that point.

Don't get me wrong LBS's are usually more personal on a regular basis but if you approach a mail order company the right way you will get personal service.

[rotecguy]

Super interesting discussion...

Remember though, that not all shops are like your shop. The shops that I have around here are generally not all that great. In fact, I have told my wife not to let me go into a shop ever again if we can help it at all. Now both my wife and I race DH, ride trails, etc... There are 7 bikes hanging in our garage. We go through a LOT of parts.

Now, Like I said, i never go to the LBS. Why? Well, first off, I would never let any of these guys touch my bike for the most part. I once went to the LBS here to get a Chris King headset removed from a busted frame, since I didn't have the proper tool to do it. So I am talking to one guy while the other works on the frame, and next thing I know we are all looking on the floor for the bearings that fell out when he removed the inner bearing race while trying to hammer the cup out with a screwdriver and a hammer. It was swell. I was REALLY impressed. I have the tools I need, and I fix all of our bikes in our very own garage. So, I never need the service that the LBS provides.

Now, I do go through a fair bit of parts. I have two options: One, I can go to the LBS ask them for the part, they will tell me "um, we can order it" at which point I will plunk down the money to have them order it. They will eventually order it when they get around to it, and I may see it in 2-3 weeks if i am lucky. They will charge tax and shipping, since it was a special order item. They will treat me like crap. They will likely not call me when the item comes in.

option 2: I call Jenson, order the very same part. Pay somewhere along the lines of HALF of what I paid at the LBS. The folks there will be super nice to me, not at all condescending. I will get the part 3 days later.

Now, would you spend a bunch of money to get a boatload of attitude? Yeah, I wouldn't either.

Now, before anyone jumps on me, This is MY experience with the shops that I have been to. I certainly don't have any solutions to what is obviously a problem, but that is my take on it.

and Merwin... 10-15% may be a good deal on some things, but if I can get it for 50% cheaper someplace else, don't begrudge me. I guess it depends on the part. And yes, I have tried to work with a bike shop on pricing to go through them, but they wouldn't budge on pricing. I guess they figure 100% of nothing is the way to go.

[RideMonkey]

On the subject of pay:

Of course as an experienced mechanic I didnt get squat for pay. To make it worse the shop made me show up 10-15 minutes prior to opening, then stay after closing until everything was locked up and done and I didn't get paid for that time.

Thats no way to motivate. We would stand around all day and talk about how much that pissed us off.

[Garrett]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
On the subject of pay:

Of course as an experienced mechanic I didnt get squat for pay. To make it worse the shop made me show up 10-15 minutes prior to opening, then stay after closing until everything was locked up and done and I didn't get paid for that time.

Thats no way to motivate. We would stand around all day and talk about how much that pissed us off.

omg 10-15min early:eek: :rolleyes:

i have to show up 30min prior to opening, but my boss is really cool and working at the shop isn't bad...i can take off work to ride pretty much any time i want

as for time to do repairs and such that some of you are complaining about...yes it does suck to have to wait, but maybe some of you don't realize how quickly bikes come in during the spring and such. generally at the shop i work at bikes are in and out withing a day or two, but there are times in the spring when its a week or so turn out. personally i think a lot of you are being a bit over critical of some shops.

[Garrett]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
On the subject of pay:

Of course as an experienced mechanic I didnt get squat for pay. To make it worse the shop made me show up 10-15 minutes prior to opening, then stay after closing until everything was locked up and done and I didn't get paid for that time.

Thats no way to motivate. We would stand around all day and talk about how much that pissed us off.

omg 10-15min early:eek: :rolleyes:

i have to show up 30min prior to opening, but my boss is really cool and working at the shop isn't bad...i can take off work to ride pretty much any time i want...that does suck that you didn't get paid for the extra time though, thats definetly bs

as for time to do repairs and such that some of you are complaining about...yes it does suck to have to wait, but maybe some of you don't realize how quickly bikes come in during the spring and such. generally at the shop i work at bikes are in and out withing a day or two, but there are times in the spring when its a week or so turn out. personally i think a lot of you are being a bit over critical of some shops.

[Garrett]

oops sorry for the double post

[Drunken_Ninja]

Of all the low down things that Shops do to their qualified staff:

Rip them off for their wages.
Demand that their employees be there early before the shift
Irregular hours like evenings, weekend days especially long-weekends and Boxing day.
Forget your yearly wage increases.
Hire unqualified staff for 1.5 times your salary and expect you to train them as your boss or superior.
Lose your pro-deals for months unneccesarily.
Lose your warranty returns.
Damage your finished work.
Give away your wages by not charging labour.
Give away free parts to those who complain.
Change your schedule to suit their days off and leave you behind for charity events.
Send you to work at race events for 13 night hours of the whole 24.
Tamper with your commuter bicycle. (when you were not looking)
Tamper with your good bicycle. (when you are watching)
Accuse you of stealing 60% of the product they inventory as being lost. (after giving it away themselves until inventory day)
Accuse you of Drug abuse when you are leaving the industry.
Rate your abilities below every one elses. (appeal to authority)
Undermine your integrity and sincerity.
Call you gay.
Ridicule you for the mistakes you made since you started even years after the fact.
Bore you to death with their 'sex' stories.
Ask out the female staff for you but only to **** on your chest.
Refuse references.
Innundate you with too much work.
Understaff the shop so that you have too much work.
Overstaff the shop to give to PT work when you don't need it.
Hire 3 managers per shop employee.
Hire sales staff that get paid over twice your wage in benefits and then give them free vacations or a mercededs benz for a week.
Steal the profits from the vending machine
Falsely accuse you of sexual assault.
Hire managers who believe in communication abuse.
Throw staff Christmas parties worth tens of thousands of dollars.
Give the customers better store discounts then you get.
Hire Buyers that don't appreciate your needs.
Lose orders for parts and make sure you get yelled at for the customers inconvenience.
Make sure you mop up the fecis when the toilet overflows.
Blame you for customer inconvenience.
Give away the shop tools to customers and blame employee theft.
Managers who bring the tools home and forget who has them.
Harass you for being a student or for spending money in their store.
Tell you that your opinion doesn't matter because no-one wants to believe you.
Treat shop guys worse than He-Bitches.

I could go on but I QUIT. Don't say that I didn't love that job nor would ever go back for better wages.

Ex-Shop Tech of Sporting Life Bikes and Board & Main Store.
Toronto, ON

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by Garrett


omg 10-15min early:eek: :rolleyes:

i have to show up 30min prior to opening, but my boss is really cool and working at the shop isn't bad...i can take off work to ride pretty much any time i want

as for time to do repairs and such that some of you are complaining about...yes it does suck to have to wait, but maybe some of you don't realize how quickly bikes come in during the spring and such. generally at the shop i work at bikes are in and out withing a day or two, but there are times in the spring when its a week or so turn out. personally i think a lot of you are being a bit over critical of some shops.

Lets say that every day I end up working a non-payed 30 mins between opening and closing. In a 23 day work month thats 11.5 hours. When you are making 8 bucks and hour you could sure use that extra 100 bucks!

[Garrett]

since you didn't notice in my second post..i did say that that is bs...it really does add up

i guess i'm just lucky with the shop i work at...i wouldn't mind a raise though...i haven't had one in like a year :rolleyes:

[Merwin5_10]

Originally posted by Drunken_Ninja
Of all the low down things that Shops do to their qualified staff:

Rip them off for their wages.
Demand that their employees be there early before the shift
Irregular hours like evenings, weekend days especially long-weekends and Boxing day.
Forget your yearly wage increases.
Hire unqualified staff for 1.5 times your salary and expect you to train them as your boss or superior.
Lose your pro-deals for months unneccesarily.
Lose your warranty returns.
Damage your finished work.
Give away your wages by not charging labour.
Give away free parts to those who complain.
Change your schedule to suit their days off and leave you behind for charity events.
Send you to work at race events for 13 night hours of the whole 24.
Tamper with your commuter bicycle. (when you were not looking)
Tamper with your good bicycle. (when you are watching)
Accuse you of stealing 60% of the product they inventory as being lost. (after giving it away themselves until inventory day)
Accuse you of Drug abuse when you are leaving the industry.
Rate your abilities below every one elses. (appeal to authority)
Undermine your integrity and sincerity.
Call you gay.
Ridicule you for the mistakes you made since you started even years after the fact.
Bore you to death with their 'sex' stories.
Ask out the female staff for you but only to **** on your chest.
Refuse references.
Innundate you with too much work.
Understaff the shop so that you have too much work.
Overstaff the shop to give to PT work when you don't need it.
Hire 3 managers per shop employee.
Hire sales staff that get paid over twice your wage in benefits and then give them free vacations or a mercededs benz for a week.
Steal the profits from the vending machine
Falsely accuse you of sexual assault.
Hire managers who believe in communication abuse.
Throw staff Christmas parties worth tens of thousands of dollars.
Give the customers better store discounts then you get.
Hire Buyers that don't appreciate your needs.
Lose orders for parts and make sure you get yelled at for the customers inconvenience.
Make sure you mop up the fecis when the toilet overflows.
Blame you for customer inconvenience.
Give away the shop tools to customers and blame employee theft.
Managers who bring the tools home and forget who has them.
Harass you for being a student or for spending money in their store.
Tell you that your opinion doesn't matter because no-one wants to believe you.
Treat shop guys worse than He-Bitches.

I could go on but I QUIT. Don't say that I didn't love that job nor would ever go back for better wages.

Ex-Shop Tech of Sporting Life Bikes and Board & Main Store.
Toronto, ON

Go to work for Kathie Lee. She has better conditions in her Chinesse sweat shops.:eek:

[Drunken_Ninja]

Of all the low down things that customers do:

Use vegetable oil on their chain so that it congeals and becomes sludge.
Overflow the toilets.
Free toilet paper.
Desire pine-fresh bathrooms.
Break stuff unneccesarily by doing what they are not supposed to.
Cry poverty.
Beg for free parts.
Ask for parts off of new bicycles.
Demand free services.
Bring their entire family's bicycles in and refuse to use the air compressor outside.
Keep bicycles more than 3 years.
Collect antique bicycles and expect you to restore them every month for free.
Wear obsolete safety equipment or none at all.
Disassemble forks and forget how to put them together just to hand you all the pieces.
Refuse to replace broken equipment.
Demand free bicycles from manufacturers after 14 years of riding and cracking the seat-tube collar.
Get over-weight and destroy race frames and expect your shop to replace the frame 50/50 with the manufacturer.
Free service when extra problems arise.
Ignore their brake-pads when they have worn down to the steel and expect free replacements.
Expect a rim warranty after forgetting to true their wheels and breaking spokes.
Expect half off everything.
Don't want to pay for anything.
Ask out the female staff.
Yell at the shop staff and tell them they are not worthy of bearing the Rocky Mountain Bicycles name for no apparent reason.
Free parts and service at charity races.
Free trail maintenance and structures.
Ride nights with the store employees once a week.
Upside down oversized handlebars and stems.
Reimbursement for old Porche car tires because the business before yours was there owed them under waranty.
Steal RM7's with BB guns.
Steal 1.3 million dollars worth of product a year and expect you not to notice.
Expect their needs to be fulfilled in 3 minutes, regardless of the problem.
Expect to go ahead of the line-ups.
Think that cotton is better than cyclewear.
Believe that hydration is stupid.
Ride at night without lights because that would cost extra.
Think that dirty reflectors will add protection.
Ride for 150 miles without pumps, spare tubes, levers and patch kits.
Ride bicycles until they won't funtion instead of regular maintenance.
Try on cyclewear without any underpants on only to return them.
Consider your shop to be storage in the off-season.
Park there bicycles there for free tune-ups by manufacturing stories to keep their bicycle near the trail when they need it.
Pity shop staff.
Expect pity or compassion.
WHINE!
Wonder why their cranks fall off.
Don't think for themselves.
Ride bikes with lose stemsets.
Misuse equipment for the wrong purpose.
Cry when their stuff gets lost.
Leave stupid things on their bikes when they go for tune-ups and forget what happened to it.
Refuse to replace tires when they are about to blow-out.
Wear chains and cassettes unil their knees won't work anymore.
Won't register a wobble in the bike or pedal arms.
Use one frayed brake cable on the rear of the bike because a front brake would mean going over the handlebars.
Ask for cantilever equipment.
Ask for things over 3 years old.
Wonder why their pie plates get dirty.
Wonder why their pie plates are so big and move up and down when they pedal.
Think rust is a sign of respect.
Think singlespeed is for heros.
Lets forks cease up before wondering if they are still serviceable.
Order Cannondale parts midseason and expect their prompt return within a month.
Mangle disc brakes and expect you to true their rotors daily complaining that you didn't get it right the first time.
Ride bent levers instead of using a vice.
Expect a second quick release for cheap or allenkey replacement bolts to make their product more user friendly.
Ride bikes over 30lbs and wonder why sales-people expect that they want to replace their bike instead of upgrading it.
Break the standard equipment and expect rare euro-parts to be easily found to exceed their ability to break equipment.
Demand next years product without offering any specs to build it.
Expect that all bikes can be compared to Specialized at pricepoint.
'Broken' air shocks are the fault of the manufacturer and that the shop should keep their busted bike for 3 weeks in time for a replacement.
Free explanation to the instruction manual.
Throw away the manuals with good reason.
Bitch and moan when it happens 'to them'.

I could go on, though I already QUIT. I needed more wages so I took a vacation. Ex-Shop Mechanic/Assembler/Ski Tech/Racquet Tech/Snowboard Tech/Inline-Skate Tech.

SportingLife Bikes & Boards and Main Store. I think I miss being there for bicyclists the most!

[kaj]

When I bought my Klein per mail order back in 96, I went to *all* the local shops where I live (10'ish shops), and talked to them about it.
They could offer me the not-so-nice Pulse Comp with LX gear for the same price that I could get a top-of-the-line Attitude with full XT, better fork, top notch pedals and all.
When confronted with that, they also went the way of "100 % of nothing is better". I knew that they prolly couldn't match the MO offer, but at least they could work with me a little - but no.
So after I had a test ride and decided the right frame size, I went home and ordered my bike from Germany. Saved about 40% off the LBS' price...
5 days later the UPS guy delivered it at my doorstep and to my surprise everything was adjusted and trued to perfection.
Brakes, wheels and shifters worked absolutely flawlessly for months - which is a lot better than the tuneups said LBS does.
A really positive surprise for me, since it is so easy to just ship the bike away without doing preparation on it, knowing that a customer that is 1000 miles away probably wont come whimpering back if his wheels aren't perfectly true or the brakes don't work 100%.

So I guess that makes me a ****ty customer in the eyes of the LBS dudes, but I got the most of my money and I got *exactly* the bike that I had been drooling over since the early 90'ies. :-)

I just couldn't live with the feeling that I was getting creamed if I have had to pay >50% more for the same piece of hardware.

The story repeats again, as I have been shopping for a Kona Stinky lately. I checked the Kona website and the prices online, and then went to talk to the LBS dude (another LBS), who without blinking, told me their prices that were up to 45% higher than MSRP... And the reason?
"We just don't sell enough of those bikes, so we have to keep the prices that high."

I wonder why...

Anyway, in my area even most of the cool bikeshops don't have the neat bikes in stock, so you can't even get that test ride or feel the bike up, before you smack your dough on the counter.
So where is the advantage of having a LBS in the matter of nice expensive parts and bikes?

I buy all of my parts such as wheels, disc brakes, stems a.s.o. at another one of the LBS's, because of their great prices, great service and great competence but guess what? They are also one of the largest mail order bike shops in the country...
I could save a few bucks going online, but not nearly enough to make it worth while, plus these guys usually take the time to chit chat and guide me when I'm buying stuff.

So I guess it comes down to the price after all - if the saving is big enough, I will not hesitate to buy from a well known and respected online dealer - no matter how nice and friendly the LBS folks are.

I'm not sure if i have a point or really contributed to the debate. This was probably also just a rant... Sorry 'bout that. :-)

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by Garrett


as for time to do repairs and such that some of you are complaining about...yes it does suck to have to wait, but maybe some of you don't realize how quickly bikes come in during the spring and such. generally at the shop i work at bikes are in and out withing a day or two, but there are times in the spring when its a week or so turn out. personally i think a lot of you are being a bit over critical of some shops.

I think the main complaint is scheduling. Most people are upset that their bike will not be done for a week and that the bike shop will have the bike for that whole time. It is best to schedule times for repairs for a day. So if the bike is due Tuesday then have them drop it off Monday night and it will be done by 5 the following day. That leaves the mechanic plenty of time for the repair (unless it needs parts that the shop doesn't have) and the customer is inconvienienced for the least amount of time possible. The goal is to keep the customer on the bike as much as possible. Every shop gets backed up but that doesn't meen that the customer should be away from their bike for 2 weeks.

Customers have a responcability to here. Think ahead! If you know the race is in two weeks call up and get a time in advance to drop the bike off for a race tune. Its not hard.

[Merwin5_10]

Here, here!

Bike shops do have an accoutability to their customers for repairs. I agree. BUT, when people come in at 3:00 pm on Friday saying they have a race tomorrow and need to have their bike fixed by 5:00 pm today "or else," we are put into a really tough situation.

What are we supposed to say? Plan better? My shop denies service all together if we know there flat "ain't" a way we can get it done in time. I'd rather frustrate a customer and have them drop the bike off after the race that to break the news an hour before the race that it isn't done.

Customers can help expedite repairs by having a realistic expectation of repairs. This includes a knowledge and history with a shop. If you know, based on experience that a shop carries a limited number of parts (and there isn't another shop available that you trust) don' t walk in two days before the race and expect your bike to be fixed, especially if you need to order parts.

My advice is to call ahead and speak directly to the mechanic. Plead your case. If he has any service menatlity about him, and if its at all possible, he'll move you forward. Just don't get pissed if he explains it just can't be done. At least he's being honest.

As for shops that refuse appointments...
We take appointments all the time. We even allow each tech to schedule repairs for "their" customers. We work this into daily repair order and it causes no problems. Our average turnaround time is 24 hours. We are open 7 days a week. M-Sat until 9:00 pm. We are open on Sunday 12-6. If we get swamped with repairs over the weekend, barring special cases and orders, you have your bike back by Wednesday. (Warranties are an exception, but out of our hands. You'll need to yell at the manufactuer on this one.) This should be done in every shop. This is a perfect example of an operational practice that customers can push the issue on with shop owners. In this case speak to the service manager or owner directly. Argue (professionally and politely) with him. Techs that don't take appointments (IMHO) are afraid to commit. It might cut into their personal ride time. Convince the owner it will increase his service business and money, decrease turnaround thereby increasing customer satisfaction, he'll do it!

[hans2]

Before I came to school, my LBS was a mom & pop shop. I was probably their main customer, and even though they dealt with mostly lower end stuff, I'd order all my higher parts & wait. I bought my bike elsewhere, cuz its not like he could just order one bike. When they went out of business, I think they gave my folks some tools & such, and they invited my father over for dinner. I was away at uni. That's a real bond.

I've been shopping at my LBS at school for a few years, but I'm still an outsider. Bah. I'm on my 9th month of not finding a job, and just made my first mail order in a few years because I could get them at half price.

[Flyin' Polack]

Here we go again...
I taco'ed my front rim.
None of the shops around me got sh*t.
"We could order one."
So can I!
Now I gotta order it & wait.
again...

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by seanaza
Here we go again...
I taco'ed my front rim.
None of the shops around me got sh*t.
"We could order one."
So can I!
Now I gotta order it & wait.
again...

Small Shops don't have the budget to keep everything in stock...Unfortunatly. It would be cool if they did but there are so many parts and pieces out there that if they did venture to buy a lot, most likly the people that come in would want some random part that the shop doesn't have in stock.

When i was buyer i rode as much as possible with my customers and if they mentioned that they were thinking about some new tires and those Gazzi 2.6's look cool. Guess what showed up in the shop in a week, just before their old tires wore out. Impulse drives people to spend and it is the shops responcability to listen to the customers. Ride with them, and care what they think and what they want/need.

[TickTock]

Great thread.

Sometimes, I think its good to buys tuff at the lbs. Small stuff that they get good price margin on like tubes, lil screws and parts etc, but theres this big shop, and i mean BIG two floors type shop near me. I was having a wheelset built. Chris King iso disc hubs laced to mavic 317's and i wanted certain spokes, nipples, the whole jazz. I call them and get a price quote for the cost. 670$. Give me a friggin break. I waited an extra week and got em from jenson for a little over 450$ built and shipped. Now say what you want about "yadda yadda, they will back up the wheel and its better built etc" but for 220 dollars less, I will deal with having to re-tension and true my own wheels. How much time did it take for me to learn how to do it myself? maybe a half hour with a good book and a buddy.

There are times when i am more than happy to pay the extra ten bucks for my lbs if they gave me the info on a part or parts...but sometimes when its hundreds of dollars we are talking about, then its foolish.

I think maybe the change should come from the companies that work with the lbs to try to even out the prices THEY pay. Other times it seems the shop is trying to get an equal price margin on expensive stuff as it is on cheap stuff.

Its nice though, if i walk into my shop with a frame in one hand and a headset in the other, they will just take it, press it and i can hand em five or ten bucks and thats that. A more snobby elitist place near me charges 65$ to press a headset "in case it has to be reamed and faced" but I have watched them just press the set right in wihout doing either. Thats absurd. For ten bucks ill let em do it, otherwise i am getting the rubber mallet and a block of wood out and doing it the old fashioned way.

Wrenching on bikes has never been that hard for me, I think if peple got to know their bikes and learned how to true wheels, adjust brakes, fix their drivetrain etc, they'd save a lot of money on repairs. Theres very few things that the average guy cant do with a minimum of tools. Sure when you really screw something up you take it to the lbs and see what they think, but some people take their bike to the lbs to fix a flat.

[Merwin5_10]

One more point to throw into the mix...

MAny vendors have price agreements with their retailers. These are terms of their contracts stating they will honor full retail margin on CERTAIN items (mostly High ticket items, like built bikes, frame sets, forks, etc.) If a retailer is found not honoring these agreements, they risk loosing that line.

Now, two things on this.

1. I am not personally aware of any such agreements between Manufacturers and wholesalers, OEM distrubutors or other "middlemen." This means they have full control over their pricing without jeapardizing their ability to sell the line.

2. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS IS NOT PRICE FIXING! Last time I checked, price fixing/price gouging was illegal in the U.S. It would seem to me that certain companies have found a loophole in trade law allowing them to perserve the "Book" value of their product.

[TickTock]

I dunno but the prices are all way off. Crank brothers just off