Jesus Christ gay? [Archive]

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 04:27 PM

This makes Christ a Teletubby, since they exist too! :D

Seriously, I will have to say that homosexuals (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense) are NOT created by God. There are countless accounts of homosexuals of either gender having a spiritual experience, getting 'saved' or asking forgiveness, and *boom* suddenly for the rest of their life they are 'straight' with absolutely NO desires of going back to the way they were. It seems to me if you are created by God a certain way, you really can't change that. I hesitate to call it a 'chemical imbalance' in the brain because I really don't know WHAT causes it, but considering God made us in His image, and considering the Bible condemns homosexuality, I DON'T think Jesus was gay. *L*

Toshi

08-19-2002, 04:37 PM

I don't have a problem with religious people, except on issues like this one. And this issue makes me quite angry.

There are countless accounts of homosexuals of either gender having a spiritual experience, getting 'saved' or asking forgiveness, and *boom* suddenly for the rest of their life they are 'straight' with absolutely NO desires of going back to the way they were. It seems to me if you are created by God a certain way, you really can't change that.

Please provide a peer-reviewed reference of a study detailing the above. I don't believe it, and until you can show me that homosexuality is a choice, not just a way some people are "created by God," I'm going to treat your whole spiel as a bunch of unfounded Christian bigotry.

RideMonkey

08-19-2002, 04:39 PM

I was created by gay dragons.

The Toninator

08-19-2002, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by RideMonkey
I was created by gay dragons.

raised in a colorado ninja commune?

-BB-

08-19-2002, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by mr_dove
homosexuals are not "created" by God. They are created by man (our civilization).

Does the fact that murderers exist make christ a murderer too. Christ taught the way to righteousness, not the way to sin.

the preceding is only my opinion as a christian.

Not "OUR" civilization...
EVERY civilization
Makes you :think: , huh?
so IS it societaly induced?

Damn True

08-19-2002, 04:48 PM

RideMonkey

08-19-2002, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by The Toninator

raised in a colorado ninja commune?

Yes, I chose the ways of the Ninja over the ways of the Dragon. Ninjas are never gay. God made Ninjas and god is not Gay so Ninjas can't be gay. Ninjas have tried to be Gay but they can't seem to do it. Its like the monkey trying to put the round object in the square hole.

I don't have a problem with dragons because they are sometimes gay. Dragons kick ass. The life of the Ninja is just more exciting, with the flipping out and everything. Dragons never flip out.

Ninjas don't hate. Neither do dragons.

Toshi

08-19-2002, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Damn True
Tone it down.
Ok. How's this, from http://www.outfront.org/library/fact.html :
Is there evidence that "ex-gay" groups and/or reparative therapy are effective?

There is no reliable scientific research to indicate that any change in sexual orientation has occurred as a result of these programs. There has never been a study published in a peer-reviewed journal supporting these efforts. Professional peer review is standard for all scientific research and proposed care. Reports of change come only from the "ex-gay" leadership and the practitioners of reparative therapy.

Could such credible opposition be wrong?

"Ex-gay" programs have been denounced by every respected medical and mental health care organization and child welfare agency in America, including:

American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
American Medical Association
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Association of School Administrators
American Federation of Teachers
The Interfaith Alliance Foundation
National Academy of Social Workers
National Education Association
American Counseling Association
World Health Organization
Council on Child and Adolescent Health.

This seems pretty definitive, and to ignore the collective weight of the AMA (just to pick out one from the list) is to delude oneself. imo, of course.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Toshi
I don't have a problem with religious people, except on issues like this one. And this issue makes me quite angry. Please provide a peer-reviewed reference of a study detailing the above. I don't believe it, and until you can show me that homosexuality is a choice, not just a way some people are "created by God," I'm going to treat your whole spiel as a bunch of unfounded Christian bigotry. [/B]

Actually, I can quite easily find examples of this....except there's only one problem. Almost all of the accounts I have ever seen were accounts of people who got saved - in other words, Christians - and the accounts were studied by Christians. That would sort of skew the results. If I try to provide you with results, what good would it do you or me? Go look for the results yourself, as I do every time someone says "Go look it up" or "Well, this is not true, because I have found this..." I go check it out. However, yes, most of the accounts are Christian, and I have the feeling that quite a lot of people out there think that 'skews' the results.

I would like to note 2 things. One, where in the world do you get the idea that the statements I made were Christian bigotry? Nowhere did I say I hate all homosexuals, or that God created everyone and I don't care what others think or any of that junk. I said, and I quote,

"It seems to me if you are created by God a certain way, you really can't change that. I hesitate to call it a 'chemical imbalance' in the brain because I really don't know WHAT causes it, but considering God made us in His image, and considering the Bible condemns homosexuality, I DON'T think Jesus was gay. *L"

This ties in with my second note. I said that I DO NOT know what causes it, and maybe I missed saying that " THINK God made us in His image, etc. I'm not perfect and I never said that I KNOW for a fact what causes this, and I never said that homosexuality was a CHOICE. I SAID there were accounts - and there are - of homosexuals going 'straight.'

The entire point is this. I stated my point of view, and I did NOT say homosexuality was a choice, or that I hate homosexuals, or any of that. I said that I do not think Jesus was gay. (Although I'm fairly sure I KNOW He wasn't gay.) I also said that that to me it seems if God creates you a certain way, it seems to me you can't change that. If anything that would tend to lean towards the fact that you CAN'T change something like being homosexual - yet it does occur, and has occurred.

If anyone here has been offended by anything I have said, I apologize for that fact. I don't hate ANYONE or condemn ANYONE for being the way they are, whether it lines up with what I believe or not....and I would consider it a favor if people would not assume I'm a bigot simply because I believe what I believe.

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by RideMonkey
I was created by gay dragons.

I thought it was the joining of two gay ninjas

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 04:58 PM

I've actually wondered if Jesus was gay, because, c'mon, in his culture you were married by your teens. The whole "celibacy" thing was created by institutionalized religion. And he hung around 12 guys ALL THE TIME. And then there was the apostle John, who has ALWAYS been referred to the one "Jesus loved the most." Sounds a bit questionable, doesn't it?

Damn True

08-19-2002, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Toshi

Ok. How's this, from http://www.outfront.org/library/fact.html :

This seems pretty definitive, and to ignore the collective weight of the AMA (just to pick out one from the list) is to delude oneself. imo, of course.

Outfront.org

They are probably very unbiased.

But that was not my point. My point was that both sides of the issue are litterd with junk science at best, and more often than not, no science at all. Additionally, you don't enter a discussion with someone by calling them a bigot and hope to have a polite discourse. Fourgivn presented his opinion to which he is entitled, as are you to yours. You simply lashed out.

Damn True

08-19-2002, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by LeatherFace
I've actually wondered if Jesus was gay, because, c'mon, in his culture you were married by your teens. The whole "celibacy" thing was created by institutionalized religion. And he hung around 12 guys ALL THE TIME. And then there was the apostle John, who has ALWAYS been referred to the one "Jesus loved the most." Sounds a bit questionable, doesn't it?

:confused:

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:04 PM

Exactly, DT. It bugs me that ANYONE thinks I'm a bigot because I stated my views. :confused:

RideMonkey

08-19-2002, 05:05 PM

The dragons say:

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=bigot

Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Toshi

08-19-2002, 05:06 PM

Don't worry so much about people getting offended. The good lawd himself :eek: knows that I don't. ;)
Originally posted by fourgivn1
Actually, I can quite easily find examples of this....except there's only one problem. Almost all of the accounts I have ever seen were accounts of people who got saved - in other words, Christians - and the accounts were studied by Christians.
Wouldn't you agree that my post above in this thread is pretty definitive evidence that this "ex-gay" phenomena is either a) bunk, or b) only effective on devout Christians?
I would like to note 2 things. One, where in the world do you get the idea that the statements I made were Christian bigotry?
Perhaps I should have thought for a few more seconds to come up with a slightly tamer adjective. But I think that describing homosexuality as a choice, "a sin" (ok, not your words; credit goes to mr_dove), when that flies in the face of accepted science is repugnant.
I did NOT say homosexuality was a choice [...] If anything that would tend to lean towards the fact that you CAN'T change something like being homosexual - yet it does occur, and has occurred.
Please explain how these two sentences are consistent with each other. Implying something (that homosexuality is a choice, implied by the second sentence, and the one before which I deleted by mistake) is just about equivalent to saying it, yet you claim innocence in the first quoted sentence.

:D

-BB-

08-19-2002, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by gravity plus
Lets say that God is real. I dont particularly believe in God, nor think there is a God, but that's besides the point.
First off: I'm not trying to make anyone upset, nor casue trouble.
This is a serious question.
Second off: This is a question a band sings about, the band shall remain nameless.
Some people believe Jesus Christ is the Lord. Since the Lord created man in his own self image, and there are homosexuals, does that mean that Jesus Christ is a homosexual himself? Could everyone be homosexual, just on different levels?

Debate.

TOTALLY not applicable.
By this rational, God would get Zits, Boners (if a guy), Cancer, and also DIE.

Toshi

08-19-2002, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Damn True
Outfront.org

They are probably very unbiased.

But that was not my point. My point was that both sides of the issue are litterd with junk science at best, and more often than not, no science at all. Additionally, you don't enter a discussion with someone by calling them a bigot and hope to have a polite discourse. Fourgivn presented his opinion to which he is entitled, as are you to yours. You simply lashed out.
Ok. Point taken on your "lashing out" comment, which you are rehashing here. I read your first post.

As for "junk science" and outfront.org's impartiality, didn't the list of established medical organizations that refuted this "ex-gay" evidence sway you one bit?

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:09 PM

The definition of 'bigot' is "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

Sure, I'm strongly partial to my own religion. I will expect ANYONE who is religious in ANY way to be strongly partial. But intolerant I'm not. If I was, I'd be all over this board denouncing the hell out of people whose views differed from mine, which I am not. My best friend is a Wiccan because he's a great guy. What one believes is their own choice and I judge people according to that.

And again, if anyone has been offended by anything I've said, I apologize. I'm prone to imperfection and making mistakes just as anyone is.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:18 PM

Argh! Tongue-tied! *L* Let me sort this out.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did NOT say homosexuality was a choice [...] If anything that would tend to lean towards the fact that you CAN'T change something like being homosexual - yet it does occur, and has occurred.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please explain how these two sentences are consistent with each other. Implying something (that homosexuality is a choice, implied by the second sentence, and the one before which I deleted by mistake) is just about equivalent to saying it, yet you claim innocence in the first quoted sentence.

What I mean to say is this. I did not say homosexuality was a choice. I said that I do not believe God creates us that way, because there's no reason to believe He does, given the fact that the Bible denounces it. I also said that I did not know what causes it for sure. I forgot ONE sentence. I forgot to include the sentence, "Going SOLELY bv scientific evidence, I can NOT prove to you that homosexuality is a choice." And I then meant to say after that "This fact would seem to imply that it is not a choice.....yet it does happen and has happened.

And YES I agree that all the evidence that the AMA has amassed IS swaying. So why is it that there ARE plenty of accounts of Christians - yes, they are Christians, although I'm sure there are other faiths that have seen this happen - who used to be homosexual, and then had a spiritual experience, and they were changed for life? Is the fact that it wasn't a 'scientific' experience or the fact that it was not monitored by a study suddenly invalidate every conversion that ever occurred?

I'm not saying YOU are wrong. I'm just saying that there ARE accounts, and just because I can't SCIENTIFICALLY prove them doesn't mean they didn't occur.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by -BB-

TOTALLY not applicable.
By this rational, God would get Zits, Boners (if a guy), Cancer, and also DIE.

*ROTFLOL!!!* I'm sorry but this just killed me! I don't want to picture God popping a boner after popping a zit. That is sacreligious or blasphemous or such. *L*

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:23 PM

JUST out of curiosity, I would like to ask a question.

How come a bunch of people got upset when I asked the question "How can other people live and reconcile themselves without any 'hope' of an afterlife?" but no one seems to be getting upset when someone asks if Jesus Christ is gay? Heck, I get bashed for defending my views more so on THIS board than on the others, and if anything, this would be a MUCH more controversial religious subject.

I REALLY want to know how Jesus being (or not being) gay is tied to politics. (I'm being somewhat facetious. :D)

Toshi

08-19-2002, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1
JUST out of curiosity, I would like to ask a question.

How come a bunch of people got upset when I asked the question "How can other people live and reconcile themselves without any 'hope' of an afterlife?" but no one seems to be getting upset when someone asks if Jesus Christ is gay? Heck, I get bashed for defending my views more so on THIS board than on the others, and if anything, this would be a MUCH more controversial religious subject.

I REALLY want to know how Jesus being (or not being) gay is tied to politics. (I'm being somewhat facetious. :D)
You have a point. And somewhere in my "lashing out" I neglected to type in that this topic choice is inflammatory by nature, and probably wasn't a good idea. But we all get along, more or less, so no harm's been done. :D

manimal

08-19-2002, 05:29 PM

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Toshi

You have a point. And somewhere in my "lashing out" I neglected to type in that this topic choice is inflammatory by nature, and probably wasn't a good idea. But we all get along, more or less, so no harm's been done. :D

HE AGREED WITH SOMETHING I SAID!!! *L*

Sorry, but I had to say it. Yes, very true....we all get along more or less. Different people, different opinions, but no matter how much mud I get slung at me and no matter how much I disagree with something, I'll still come back the next day and look forward to logging onto this site and debating and posting. :)

RideMonkey

08-19-2002, 05:36 PM

Who would win in a fight? God or dragons?

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by tubby

by the way, how many of you are aware that the homosexual movements' media marketing plan was based on hitler's "Mein Kampf"? so who's the biggot?

Do what? Whoa....that's interesting (to say the least) if true.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by RideMonkey
Who would win in a fight? God or dragons?

A buck says God wins, but I'm sure logic (however far-fetched) can show how the dragon would win. :D

ohio

08-19-2002, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1
So why is it that there ARE plenty of accounts of Christians - yes, they are Christians, although I'm sure there are other faiths that have seen this happen - who used to be homosexual, and then had a spiritual experience, and they were changed for life? Is the fact that it wasn't a 'scientific' experience or the fact that it was not monitored by a study suddenly invalidate every conversion that ever occurred?

The problem with the above is that these "conversions" are anomolies... blips on the radar, and anecdotal at best. I don't disbelieve that these people converted, but it's such a teeny percentage that it's statistically insignificant, and can be chalked up to heterosexuals who convinced themselves at some point they were homosexual and then reverted, bisexuals who find a life-long partner that happens to be opposite sex, or homosexuals SO devoutly Christian that they can repress their true orientation...

Some people can be convinced of anything. You can convince people that cell phones are making them sick, aliens control the government, and the Holocaust never occured. It shouldn't be suprising that a teeny portion of the population can be convinced they're not gay when they are (and likewise can be convinced they're homosexual when they aren't)...

Anyway, this opening question in this thread has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on RM, and gravity you ought to know better. And fourgivn1, I wish you hadn't deleted that thread, I thought it was a good one. Maybe I missed some of the later posts but I didn't notice people getting angry. I certainly wasn't offended by the question. I think it's perfectly reasonable one for anyone that believes in an afterlife to ask.

Tenaciousle0

08-19-2002, 05:41 PM

I think Jesus probably tapped that fine-ass Mary Magdeline a few times, but nobody wrote about it. Jesus probably had kids. Why is the catholic church hding the dead sea scrolls, because they talk about Jesus's kids, that's why.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:41 PM

Yeah, well, you get enough arrows shot at you (case in point - this thread *LOL*) you retreat after a while.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 05:47 PM

"Some people can be convinced of anything. You can convince people that cell phones are making them sick, aliens control the government, and the Holocaust never occured. It shouldn't be suprising that a teeny portion of the population can be convinced they're not gay when they are (and likewise can be convinced they're homosexual when they aren't)... "

True, but the problem with this is that all of the examples you quoted about people being convinced did NOT deal with that person's personality or sexual orientation. You can spend the rest of your life trying to convince me I'm gay, and I'm still going to dislike men, and go home at the end of the day and roll around in bed with my wife. *L*

ohio

08-19-2002, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1
with that person's personality or sexual orientation. You can spend the rest of your life trying to convince me I'm gay, and I'm still going to dislike men, and go home at the end of the day and roll around in bed with my wife. *L*

Well they didn't deal with sexual orientation because that's what's in question. There's no question that people can be taught to love or hate certain things or people. As far as convincing people of physical feelings, people can easily be convinced that they're sick when they're healthy and vice-versa.

You might be a hard case, but not everybody is. I am also lucky enough that I've never been confused about my orientation, but I know plenty of people that tried and tried to be straight but weren't. Likewise, and ex-girlfriend of mine was, until we started dating, convinced she was gay.

Tenaciousle0

08-19-2002, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by ohio

but weren't. Likewise, and ex-girlfriend of mine was, until we started dating, convinced she was gay.
Ohio is a mack daddy

RideMonkey

08-19-2002, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Tenaciousle0

Ohio is a mack daddy

LOL! Dang dude before she changed her mind did you.......

:devil: :evil:

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by ohio

You might be a hard case, but not everybody is.

*LOL!* True....except I'm fairly sure that I'm not a guy who likes girls, but is truly a homosexual inside that is just so repressed it will take a lot of work to get out. I'd also like to chalk it up to not being confused about my orientation. *L*

Zonic Man

08-19-2002, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Tenaciousle0
I think Jesus probably tapped that fine-ass Mary Magdeline a few times, but nobody wrote about it. Jesus probably had kids. Why is the catholic church hding the dead sea scrolls, because they talk about Jesus's kids, that's why.

Whoa.

Although juvenille and somewhat sophmoric, he actually said something worthwhile here (not that you don't elsewhere, but this thread's commentary as well as this thread's subject itself is so filled with pap that comment's like yours, BB's and Toshi's are actually nice to see.

I bet Jesus was married, in fact, in order to become a rabbi in the hebrew faith at that time, one had to be married. If you interpret "rabbi" as merely teacher, I guess jesus coulda taught like 5th grade math or something and still be single.

I'm not gay, so I don't know one way or the other if it's a choice or not.

I'm not God, so I don't know whether or not She hates queers or loves them or what.

Tubby, if you like your dad more that he's not gay, good for you, that's jolly. But where in Lord's name did you filter such nonsense into your skull about homosexual "marketing" and Hitler? Also, Nietzsche an idiot? Have you ever read or studied his work? Or are you just saying that because of the quote Uber-thumpers love so much that "God is dead?"

Tenaciousle0

08-19-2002, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Zonic Man

Whoa.

Although juvenille and somewhat sophmoric, he actually said something worthwhile here (not that you don't elsewhere, but this thread's commentary as well as this thread's subject itself is so filled with pap that comment's like yours, BB's and Toshi's are actually nice to see.

I bet Jesus was married, in fact, in order to become a rabbi in the hebrew faith at that time, one had to be married. If you interpret "rabbi" as merely teacher, I guess jesus coulda taught like 5th grade math or something and still be single.

good point, It really seems ludicrous to think that Jesus wasn't married.

Zonic Man

08-19-2002, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by Tenaciousle0

It really seems ludicrous to think that Jesus wasn't married.

It's all the Catholics' fault (or insert any other religion/belief system differnent than your own).

Tenaciousle0

08-19-2002, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Zonic Man

It's all the Catholics' fault (or insert any other religion/belief system differnent than your own).
I'll stick with blaming the Catholics

Damn True

08-19-2002, 06:31 PM

It's all part of a vast right wing conspiracy.

Why is it so unbelievable to some people that Jesus was actually rightous?

Could it be because they can't imagine such behavior in themselves?

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by tubby

by the way, how many of you are aware that the homosexual movements' media marketing plan was based on hitler's "Mein Kampf"? so who's the biggot?

I'm intrigued...please elaborate on this subject. Are you saying that the marketing plan was based on Hitler's beliefs, or Hitler's propaganda tactics, also known as the "spectacle" in postmodern sociological thought. These tactics are used by everyone, like the Superbowl, Democrat and Republican Conventions, and huge sales at department stores.

So please, tell me what you mean by comparing gay media marketing to Mein Kampf.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 06:38 PM

I'm going to run for cover now. :D

Damn True

08-19-2002, 06:42 PM

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by ohio

And fourgivn1, I wish you hadn't deleted that thread, I thought it was a good one. Maybe I missed some of the later posts but I didn't notice people getting angry. I certainly wasn't offended by the question. I think it's perfectly reasonable one for anyone that believes in an afterlife to ask.

I think I may have had something to do with forgivn1 deleting that post. The way I understood it, starting with the title "Hope for others" was that forgivn1 believes in an afterlife, therefore his life is worth living because there is hope for something afterwards. As for the rest of us, what hope do we have if we don't believe in the afterlife. What are we living for? I became a bit incensed, and if that caused you to delete it, I apologize, although I was curious to know what others had said after my little rant...er...big rant :rolleyes:

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1
I'm going to run for cover now. :D

Hehe...

"In this corner, we have the bleeding heart liberal lesbian known as LeatherFace...in the other corner, we have a person who equates homosexual movement marketing plans to Mein Kampf. Who will win and who will be damned to Hell? Stay tuned for the next episode of As the Monkey Turns..."

manimal

08-19-2002, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by LeatherFace

I'm intrigued...please elaborate on this subject. Are you saying that the marketing plan was based on Hitler's beliefs, or Hitler's propaganda tactics, also known as the "spectacle" in postmodern sociological thought. These tactics are used by everyone, like the Superbowl, Democrat and Republican Conventions, and huge sales at department stores.

So please, tell me what you mean by comparing gay media marketing to Mein Kampf.

you are correct, i was referring to the marketing tactics not neccassarily beliefs, however, how did hitler win over so many people with such a ludicrous ideal? if you hear something enough, no matter how off the wall, some will eventually take it as fact, look at the theory of evolution as an example. no scientific evidence, gaping holes in the theory and yet it's being taught as fact to our children.
the point is, the "gay agenda" has used hitler's brainwashing tactics to fool a nation into believing that plain 'ole temptation is actually a pre-disposed tendency towards homosexuality. heck, with that mentality i could've gotten away with a lot more at school, "sorry teacher, i didn't do my homework because i was born with a tendency towards watching too much t.v. at night so i can't be held responsible for not turning it in."

zonic man, yes i am happy for my father as well as several hundred others whom i've seen changed in my short life. as far as Nietzsche goes, yes, i have read some of his works and i find him to be someone blessed with an intellectual mind that cannot understand that not all things are meant to be understood. a wise man knows that he knows not all things.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by LeatherFace

I think I may have had something to do with forgivn1 deleting that post. The way I understood it, starting with the title "Hope for others" was that forgivn1 believes in an afterlife, therefore his life is worth living because there is hope for something afterwards. As for the rest of us, what hope do we have if we don't believe in the afterlife. What are we living for? I became a bit incensed, and if that caused you to delete it, I apologize, although I was curious to know what others had said after my little rant...er...big rant :rolleyes:

Well, you took it wrong, but I apologize for that. I didn't mean it as "Since the REST of you aren't Christian, and therefore have no hope of an afterlife, what hope DO you have?" I literally meant just what it said....what IS your hope in life, and 'after' life?

As far as deleting it, I just got tired of first being told it didn't belong there, when I plain made a mistake putting it there (as opposed to being mean/rude on purpose), and THEN essentially being called dumb by one of the members because I said that it was just as wrong for others to spend loads of time responding to the post, and THEN tell me how wrong I am to post there. I said it was the same as arguing with someone for 30 minutes and then saying "But I don't like to argue....why are you arguing with me?" *L*

A side note for everyone...Yes, I'm in the minority here, but a lot of people bugged me in that other post for posting there without thinking, and a LOT of people bugged me on THIS board for presenting my opinions. Has anyone given any thought to the fact that a lot of the topics discussed here are offensive to Christians? I'm guessing NOT. *L* Granted, I think all of the people here who are Christians here understand the nature of this website, and therefore can roll with the punches....I guess what I mean, is 'how about equal rights?' :D I'm not saying don't post stuff. What I am saying, is that if people are gonna allow topics like THIS, then don't get your panties in a bunch when I ask about the afterlife. :)

Zonic Man

08-19-2002, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by tubby

zonic man, yes i am happy for my father as well as several hundred others whom i've seen changed in my short life. as far as Nietzsche goes, yes, i have read some of his works and i find him to be someone blessed with an intellectual mind that cannot understand that not all things are meant to be understood. a wise man knows that he knows not all things.

Hmmm.....interesting. According to your premised beliefs, your views scarily resemble Fred's. I think you better re-read those books, homey.

manimal

08-19-2002, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

A side note for everyone...Yes, I'm in the minority here, but a lot of people bugged me in that other post for posting there without thinking, and a LOT of people bugged me on THIS board for presenting my opinions. Has anyone given any thought to the fact that a lot of the topics discussed here are offensive to Christians? I'm guessing NOT. *L* Granted, I think all of the people here who are Christians here understand the nature of this website, and therefore can roll with the punches....I guess what I mean, is 'how about equal rights?' :D I'm not saying don't post stuff. What I am saying, is that if people are gonna allow topics like THIS, then don't get your panties in a bunch when I ask about the afterlife. :)

right on fourgivn1. i agree wholheartedly that few consider if christians are ever offended, i suppose we're not diverse enough to have rights. some may think that i'm some kind of militant right wing fallwell junkie (actually, i'd never heard of the guy 'till recently) but i'm actually just trying to get people to realize that we as christians will not change our minds on our beliefs, no matter how many times we're stereotyped or mocked. being a christian isn't easy, especially today, if i wanted an easy life i'd claim that i was gay so i could get special treatment under the umbrella of diversity.

and for those curious of the origins of my "mein kampf" allegations:

Transformed Into His Image
by
David Foster

David Foster is a former member of the Washington D.C. chapter of the "Act Up" publication, a militant homosexual group that has played a large role in the homosexual media push. Now a Christian, writing about the miraculous changes in his life and his militant homosexual past.

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by tubby

if i wanted an easy life i'd claim that i was gay so i could get special treatment under the umbrella of diversity.

Oh, you are absolutely right that being gay means you have an easy life...excuse me, but what are you talking about? And please elaborate about these "special rights" you are referring to...what special rights?

gravity plus

08-19-2002, 08:13 PM

Well, I didn't mean for this post to get out of hand or anything of that matter. I have been pondering this question for quite some time now. I just found out about this board, too. I saw the after life thread so I thought it would be o.k. to post this one. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with this, but I think it's a fair enough question, since it does say you can talk about religion as long as you don't preach it, and I'm not preaching that God is gay or God isn't gay, or even if God exists for that matter.

Tenaciousle0

08-19-2002, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by gravity plus
Well, I didn't mean for this post to get out of hand or anything of that matter. I have been pondering this question for quite some time now. I just found out about this board, too. I saw the after life thread so I thought it would be o.k. to post this one. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with this, but I think it's a fair enough question, since it does say you can talk about religion as long as you don't preach it, and I'm not preaching that God is gay or God isn't gay, or even if God exists for that matter.
It got some good arguments started and that's always a good measuring stick of a thread.

manimal

08-19-2002, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by LeatherFace

Oh, you are absolutely right that being gay means you have an easy life...excuse me, but what are you talking about? And please elaborate about these "special rights" you are referring to...what special rights?

case in point: who is discriminated against most in the media, christians or homosexuals? be honest.

special rights? perhaps a better word would have been "treatment". my son won't be allowed to bring his Bible to school because it may offend someone yet homosexuality is being taught in schools as a normal way of life which offends me. so who's getting the special treatment here? you're allowed to practice a gay lifestyle anywhere in the US if you please but will my children be allowed to openly proclaim their faith in school without being reprimanded? i think not. so you think the homosexual lifestyle is harder than being a christian? try standing up for absolute truth sometime and see what happens.

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by tubby

case in point: who is discriminated against most in the media, christians or homosexuals? be honest.

special rights? perhaps a better word would have been "treatment". my son won't be allowed to bring his Bible to school because it may offend someone yet homosexuality is being taught in schools as a normal way of life which offends me. so who's getting the special treatment here? you're allowed to practice a gay lifestyle anywhere in the US if you please but will my children be allowed to openly proclaim their faith in school without being reprimanded? i think not. so you think the homosexual lifestyle is harder than being a christian? try standing up for absolute truth sometime and see what happens.

So are you trying to tell me that you are being persecuted because you are Christian? I dunno, when I was Catholic, I think I had it pretty good. Granted, I went to Catholic school, so the proclamation of faith wasn't a problem: I had religion class everyday and went to Mass twice a week. The education was excellent, and I never experienced any persecution during that lifetime. Oh, but it sounds like you've got it bad, not being able to bring a Bible to school and proclaim your faith in public schools. Meanwhile, I'm supposedly damned to hell, a pervert, a child molester, and cannot have the same rights as straight people.

Tell me, what is a derogatory term for a Christian? And have you ever been called that? I can tell you plenty of names I have and could be called, as well as tense moments of looking over my shoulder because I was afraid someone was going to attack me. Or have you had to move out of an apartment because your roommates were anti-Christian? Yeah, I can see how you would be resentful of the special treatment homosexuals get--give me a break :rolleyes:

manimal

08-19-2002, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by LeatherFace

So are you trying to tell me that you are being persecuted because you are Christian? I dunno, when I was Catholic, I think I had it pretty good. Granted, I went to Catholic school, so the proclamation of faith wasn't a problem: I had religion class everyday and went to Mass twice a week. The education was excellent, and I never experienced any persecution during that lifetime. Oh, but it sounds like you've got it bad, not being able to bring a Bible to school and proclaim your faith in public schools. Meanwhile, I'm supposedly damned to hell, a pervert, a child molester, and cannot have the same rights as straight people.

Tell me, what is a derogatory term for a Christian? And have you ever been called that? I can tell you plenty of names I have and could be called, as well as tense moments of looking over my shoulder because I was afraid someone was going to attack me. Or have you had to move out of an apartment because your roommates were anti-Christian? Yeah, I can see how you would be resentful of the special treatment homosexuals get--give me a break :rolleyes:

try arguing your point on the same level. i wasn't referring to private school, and don't confuse catholic school with christianity. who said you were damned to hell? i didn't, you stereotyped me and you do have the same rights as straight people, that's not the issue. you cannot deny that you don't recieve special treatment. scenario 1: college cafeteria. if you were to stand up and say, " hello everyone, i'm a practicing lesbian and i think that all of you should give it a try sometime.", some would chuckle, some would clap but no one would accuse you of pushing anything on them, even if they disagreed. now if i were to stand up in the same cafeteria and say, " hello everyone, i'm a christian and i think you should give it a try sometime", i would be reprimanded and/or ridiculed for pushing my religion on people. now this scenario is on a small scale, try the same scenario in china and see what happens. you would leave the cafeteria with a smile knowing that you just told all of your peers what you stand for, i would have left in handcuffs.
have i been persecuted, no, not in the area of grave danger. have i been afraid for my life because of my beliefs, no (but i am a 225lb former marine so most people don't bother me:D )
have i been ridiculed and called a "biggot", "bible thumper", "intolerant", "ignorant".......yes.
have i ever ridiculed a person for being homosexual? no
have i been ridiculed by a homosexual? yes

so don't take on the victim bit and tell me how tough it is to be different.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 09:05 PM

Hmm...how shall I word this so I do not get attacked again? :D

On the one hand, I shall say that neither group has it easy. While homosexuals DO have it a lot easier than they used to, this by no means, implies that all is a cakewalk. On the other hand, I will have to agree with Tubby on this one as far as Christians being persecuted goes. I'm NOT saying that Christians are being stoned and the like, and homosexuals have it easy. But persecution of Christians HAS stepped up quite a bit. Just because you did not experience much persecution during your time in Catholic school, Leatherface, does not mean others do not. I'm persecuted ALL THE TIME at work in the military. Now, a lot of the so-called 'persecution' is only jokes and ribbing, but I've been beat up in high school by gangs of Christian-bashers, had anti-Christian stuff spray-painted on my car, and the like. I was asking my friend a question once during LUNCH outside the class, and a teacher walked by, and did not even ask what we were doing. (We were NOT preaching. I was asking some benign question.) She tore the Bibles out of our hands and would not give them back to us until my father stormed down to the school and demanded them back, and then got some load of crap about US pushing OUR views on others???

My point (to get to the short of it) is that Christians DO suffer persecution. This is NOT to say "Nyeah nyeah, my persecution was worse than your persecution! Pbbththtbh!" It is simply to say that life for homosexuals in the public eye HAS gotten a bit easier, and it HAS gotten a bit worse for Christians. Even on this site, there is this feeling that we're 'tolerated' not so much as 'accepted.' I have the feeling I'd get kicked out of here a lot faster for stating opinions than someone else. Earlier in this thread is a perfect example.

Damn True

08-19-2002, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by LeatherFace

Tell me, what is a derogatory term for a Christian? And have you ever been called that? I can tell you plenty of names I have and could be called, as well as tense moments of looking over my shoulder because I was afraid someone was going to attack me. Or have you had to move out of an apartment because your roommates were anti-Christian? Yeah, I can see how you would be resentful of the special treatment homosexuals get--give me a break :rolleyes:

Try being compared to people who blow up abortion clinics, the KKK, White Supremacists etc. Christianity has it's share of negative connotations. Some of which are just as unsavory as yours.

Certainly not all gay people are pedophiles, neither are all Christians members of the Aryan Nation.

The door of hatered swings from both sides of the aisle.

fourgivn1

08-19-2002, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Damn True

Try being compared to people who blow up abortion clinics, the KKK, White Supremacists etc. Christianity has it's share of negative connotations. Some of which are just as unsavory as yours.

Certainly not all gay people are pedophiles, neither are all Christians members of the Aryan Nation.

The door of hatered swings from both sides of the aisle.

Amen. (I mean that in an affirmative way, not a Christian way. :D) Agreed with everything here; I DO hope no one thinks that by arguing from a Christian point of view, we are taking up the banner for those people who DO misrepresent Christianity ridiculously.

Damn True

08-19-2002, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Zonic Man

Hmmm.....interesting. According to your premised beliefs, your views scarily resemble Fred's. I think you better re-read those books, homey.

Could you, just once, disagree with someone without attempt to belittle them or wave your intellectual dick in the air?

Or is this more of your widely appreciated candor?

Your erudition, however great or small, becomes far less impressive when it is presented in such a manner.

Even if YOU disagree with Nitzche (Linebacker for the Packers right?), there must be some validity to his work to warrant it's inclusion in so many curriculi.

Tenaciousle0

08-19-2002, 09:16 PM

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by tubby

you cannot deny that you don't recieve special treatment. scenario 1: college cafeteria. if you were to stand up and say, " hello everyone, i'm a practicing lesbian and i think that all of you should give it a try sometime.", some would chuckle, some would clap but no one would accuse you of pushing anything on them, even if they disagreed.

First of all, I think this is a ridiculous scenario. Have you ever witnessed this occur? And I wouldn't have the guts to do this because I don't think I would get the chuckles and claps. And why would a gay person tell unknown orientated people to "try it?" You don't just "try" being gay, that's who you are. Ridiculous. Maybe I would stand up and say I was a lesbian, but I would never say everyone should "try it" like it was a new flavor of soda or dance step. I don't know, have you ever witnessed this occurring? If you have, then I stand corrected.

Originally posted by tubby

now if i were to stand up in the same cafeteria and say, " hello everyone, i'm a christian and i think you should give it a try sometime", i would be reprimanded and/or ridiculed for pushing my religion on people. now this scenario is on a small scale, try the same scenario in china and see what happens. you would leave the cafeteria with a smile knowing that you just told all of your peers what you stand for, i would have left in handcuffs.
have i been persecuted, no, not in the area of grave danger. have i been afraid for my life because of my beliefs, no (but i am a 225lb former marine so most people don't bother me:D )

Traversing my college campus, I don't recall any gays standing out in the open, preaching to college students that they should find their inner gayness and convert. I did experience on more than one occasion Christians doing this, to the point of being intrusive and aggressive.

Originally posted by tubby

so don't take on the victim bit and tell me how tough it is to be different.

I didn't think I was "taking on the victim bit," I was merely stating how it is for gays most of the time. You just don't want to believe it for some reason, and you think that homosexuality can be compared to Christianity. They are two completely different things.

Toshi

08-19-2002, 10:16 PM

Not to start an off-topic tangent on this interesting thread, but I'd like to state that I, and the literate world in general, have no problem accepting the preponderance of evidence for evolution. We've been over this with JesusFreak and I will say no more on this subject. :rolleyes:

As for persecution of Christians vs. homosexuals I can't really comment, as I am neither Christian nor homosexual, but I, both in Catholic school and in my secular college now, have not witnessed any Christian-bashing, while I have witnessed verbal abuse of homosexuals. Anecdotal evidence is meaningless, yadda yadda yadda, but add another point to the graph.

ohio

08-19-2002, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1
It is simply to say that life for homosexuals in the public eye HAS gotten a bit easier, and it HAS gotten a bit worse for Christians. Even on this site, there is this feeling that we're 'tolerated' not so much as 'accepted.' I have the feeling I'd get kicked out of here a lot faster for stating opinions than someone else. Earlier in this thread is a perfect example.

Instead of fighting over who has it worse, can we just agree that NEITHER should be persecuted? Actually, I might be in a minority in thinking that neither homosexuality NOR christianity is wrong...:confused:

fourgivn1, where are you from? I have never heard of (let alone witnessed) the type of Christian bashing you spoke of. In the small town Ohio public school I attended there was certainly no issue with students, teachers, or coaches openly declaring their Christianity and asking others to join them in prayer. In fact, I probably prayed more Christian prayers than Jewish (my family is Jewish) just making it through highschool sports...:rolleyes: At the same time I had teachers telling me AIDs was a good thing because it killed off all the sinners, "especially the fags."

Fast-forward to college, liberal (though not as much as some) north-eastern institution, there were some minor conflicts between campus crusade for Christ and the Rainbow Alliance where they'd each go crying to their respective publishing organizations, but all in all they both had it very easy. They could rant and rave all they wanted. If I had to pick I'd say the Rainbow Alliance had a free-er voice, but the CCC sure had better resources and funding. Who cares? They should both be allowed to preach whatever the hell they want.

my point is it all depends heavily on where you are, and no matter where you go there will be ignorant people with prejudices. That doesn't make it right, and one group being persecuted more than another doesn't make any of the persecution insignificant. No one should be keeping score of who has it worse where... just how to fix it.

RideMonkey

08-19-2002, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1
On the one hand, I shall say that neither group has it easy. While homosexuals DO have it a lot easier than they used to, this by no means, implies that all is a cakewalk. On the other hand, I will have to agree with Tubby on this one as far as Christians being persecuted goes.

This is true. The reason is that Christians are one of the most closed-minded, judgemental, holier than thou groups of people I have ever encountered. I speak from personal experience in my own family.

Homosexuals are simply a group of people trying to make the best of a bad situation. They arent attacking or condemning other groups in our society. I can live with those that are different than I, but I can't live with people that hate.

That said, I must say that you are one of the most reasonable Christians I have conversed with Fourgivn1 (yes thats a compliment).

LeatherFace

08-19-2002, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by RideMonkey

That said, I must say that you are one of the most reasonable Christians I have conversed with Fourgivn1 (yes thats a compliment).

I second that one ;)

Zonic Man

08-20-2002, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Damn True

Could you, just once, disagree with someone without attempt to belittle them or wave your intellectual dick in the air?

Or is this more of your widely appreciated candor?

Your erudition, however great or small, becomes far less impressive when it is presented in such a manner.

Even if YOU disagree with Nitzche (Linebacker for the Packers right?), there must be some validity to his work to warrant it's inclusion in so many curriculi.

Have you been drinking?

Where did I disagree with my man Freddie? I think my post was more in regards to Tubby not speaking ignorantly (that is, without prior knowledge of the topic to which he speaks) regarding a philosopher's views.

Contempt prior to investigation. All the kids are doing it.

Brian HCM#1

08-20-2002, 12:44 AM

Who cares people, if Jesus was gay, then he was gay and if not then he was not. If I remember correctly Jesus died a Jew not a Christian so anything is possible, maybe that chapter of the bible was missing maybe someone spilled wine on it or something and couldn't translate it. Know one will ever know...................will they?

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by Toshi
Not to start an off-topic tangent on this interesting thread, but I'd like to state that I, and the literate world in general, have no problem accepting the preponderance of evidence for evolution. We've been over this with JesusFreak and I will say no more on this subject. :rolleyes:

And us illiterates keep on believing in creation. :D

As for persecution of Christians vs. homosexuals I can't really comment, as I am neither Christian nor homosexual, but I, both in Catholic school and in my secular college now, have not witnessed any Christian-bashing, while I have witnessed verbal abuse of homosexuals. Anecdotal evidence is meaningless, yadda yadda yadda, but add another point to the graph.

You're essentially saying that thousands of accounts of being persecuted would be meaningless because they weren't gathered (the accounts, that is) in a controlled study. Silly question, but isn't your account of not witnessing Christian-bashing while witnessing homosexual-bashing also an anecdote? Just because you have never seen Christian-bashing does not mean it does not exist. We Christians don't set out to MANUFACTURE stories of persecution, just like I know that Leatherface and others don't manufacture stories of persecution. I definitely understand the desire for empirical evidence and such in cases like this, but I beg to differ when people say that ONLY empirical evidence is admissible, and everything else means nothing.

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by RideMonkey

This is true. The reason is that Christians are one of the most closed-minded, judgemental, holier than thou groups of people I have ever encountered. I speak from personal experience in my own family.

That said, I must say that you are one of the most reasonable Christians I have conversed with Fourgivn1 (yes thats a compliment).

Thanks. I think. :confused: :D You know what kills me though? The ENTIRE REASON that pretty much all Christians ARE viewed as closed-minded and holier-than-thou is because they all miss that one little scripture in their supposed Bible studies. The one that says "If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol." It makes it bad for the rest of us guys who actually believe what they believe, know WHY they believe, can back it up with quite a bit of proof, and DO try to keep the peace and understand others and 'reason together.'

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by ohio

Instead of fighting over who has it worse, can we just agree that NEITHER should be persecuted? Actually, I might be in a minority in thinking that neither homosexuality NOR christianity is wrong...:confused:

fourgivn1, where are you from? I have never heard of (let alone witnessed) the type of Christian bashing you spoke of. In the small town Ohio public school I attended there was certainly no issue with students, teachers, or coaches openly declaring their Christianity and asking others to join them in prayer. In fact, I probably prayed more Christian prayers than Jewish (my family is Jewish) just making it through highschool sports...:rolleyes: At the same time I had teachers telling me AIDs was a good thing because it killed off all the sinners, "especially the fags."

Fast-forward to college, liberal (though not as much as some) north-eastern institution, there were some minor conflicts between campus crusade for Christ and the Rainbow Alliance where they'd each go crying to their respective publishing organizations, but all in all they both had it very easy. They could rant and rave all they wanted. If I had to pick I'd say the Rainbow Alliance had a free-er voice, but the CCC sure had better resources and funding. Who cares? They should both be allowed to preach whatever the hell they want.

my point is it all depends heavily on where you are, and no matter where you go there will be ignorant people with prejudices. That doesn't make it right, and one group being persecuted more than another doesn't make any of the persecution insignificant. No one should be keeping score of who has it worse where... just how to fix it.

I'm from Chicago...although I grew up in Wisconsin/Kansas/Missouri/Florida/South Carolina/Georgia/Illinois. :D I am not saying I got bashed everywhere I went, but it did occur. Although this doesn't count because it's an 'anecdote.' :D

Agreed on the point about both being persecuted, and not keeping score. Throughout this whole board I think that whole point was missed by a lot of people (including myself at times).

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 05:36 AM

Originally posted by LeatherFace

I second that one ;)

Thanks!.....*sniff* You guys are the best.....I need a hug.....:D

Everyone join hands and sing along with me...

"Goombayah, my (insert personal deity or abstain voluntarily), Goombayah.... Goombayah, my (insert personal deity or abstain voluntarily), Goombayah...."

:)

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
If I remember correctly Jesus died a Jew not a Christian so anything is possible

Well He really couldn't have been Christian, I think, since it's sort of tough to be a follower of a religion that you are the FOCUS of. :D

Now there's an interesting question....CAN you be a proponent (by proponent I mean more of a follower-type advocate, not just an advocate) of a religion that you are the focus of?

You gods out there pipe down. I'd rather hear from the mere mortals on this one. :D

gravity

08-20-2002, 07:29 AM

why are Catholics always bashed on for everything? I'm a Catholic by denomination, although i don't practice i do believe in God, and although the Catholic church has repeatedly screwed up (up meaning little boys :eek:), why does that make it every Catholic's fault?

anyway, where does the bible condemn homosexuality? (just asking where cos i don't know, not saying it doesn't or anything)

i feel sorry for gays, not because they are gay, but because so many people are prejudiced against them. however, i don't believe that gays should be given the ability to have kids through IVF or sperm donation, that really IS playing God....

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by gravity
anyway, where does the bible condemn homosexuality? (just asking where cos i don't know, not saying it doesn't or anything)
....

A buncha places....here's a few.....

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

Leviticus 18:22: 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'

Also Leviticus 20:13.

And the most inflammatory one:

1 Corinthians 6:9. "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders ... ...shall enter the kingdom of God."

I think you get the point concerning the Bible's viewpoint on homosexuality.

gravity plus

08-20-2002, 08:54 AM

I can't believe Tubby thinks homosexuals have it easier than Christians. I don't know about you, but I've never seen any homosexuals condeming christians for their beliefs. But I have seen Christians gather at anti-gay rallies. Plus, I'd be happy if any teachers or principals or any official would take away any Bibles in schools, or in any public place other than churches (and religous schools). Religion shouldn't be preached or be forced on people. Plus I've never seen homosexuals preaching about how Christians should turn gay either.

Brian HCM#1

08-20-2002, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by gravity
i feel sorry for gays, not because they are gay, but because so many people are prejudiced against them. however, i don't believe that gays should be given the ability to have kids through IVF or sperm donation, that really IS playing God.... I'll pipe in on this one.............................Who cares, if a gay person wants a child let them have a child, even if it means artificial imsemination(spell). If a gay person has a child it really has no effect on my life what so ever as I'm sure it wont effect anyone else. Everyone is so quick to judge right from wrong, it seems like if its not written in the good book it must be wrong. Now that pisses me off almost more than Hippies:angry: :)

gravity plus

08-20-2002, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
If a gay person has a child it really has no effect on my life what so ever as I'm sure it wont effect anyone else. Everyone is so quick to judge right from wrong, it seems like if its not written in the good book it must be wrong.

I agree with you, partially. I agree with the part that homosexuals should be able to have children. Where I disagree with you is, it may not affect YOU, but it might have some psychological affects on the child. :confused:

Ranger

08-20-2002, 09:29 AM

Servus!

Whoooo! This one is a hot potato!

I will not argue for or against this topic - but fourgivn1, out of pure curiosity, which version of the Bible are you reading from - specifically regarding the 1 Corinthians 6:9 reference?

I ask merely because the word "homosexual" is considered a modern reference. From Merriam-Webster.com...

Main Entry: 1ho·mo·sex·u·al
Pronunciation: "hO-m&-'sek-sh(&-)w&l, -'sek-sh&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1892
1 : of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2 : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex

(edited for spelling)

Toshi

08-20-2002, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by fourgivn1
Silly question, but isn't your account of not witnessing Christian-bashing while witnessing homosexual-bashing also an anecdote?
Yes. And that's why I said "Anecdotal evidence is meaningless, yadda yadda yadda, but add another point to the graph."

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Ranger
Servus!

Whoooo! This one is a hot potato!

I will not argue for or against this topic - but fourgivn1, out of pure curiosity, which version of the Bible are you reading from - specifically regarding the 1 Corinthians 6:9 reference?

I ask merely because the word "homosexual" is considered a modern reference.

I read from the NKJV, because it's the most accurately interpreted as compared to the original texts.

I've done a little searching, and I will go so far as to say that some of the texts referring to homosexuality in the Bible are somewhat ambiguous. I don't have my Bible OR a Hebrew/Greek translation with me, so I can't really dig deep at the time. However I will include a quote I got from a website that refers to it, and how it ties in with the Bible.

' "Some passages that have been advanced as pertinent to the issue of homosexuality are, in fact, irrelevant. One is the attempted gang rape in Sodom (Gen. 19:1-29). That was a case of ostensibly heterosexual males intent on humiliating strangers by treating them "like women," thus demasculinizing them. (This is also the case in a similar account in Jud ges 19-21.) Their brutal behavior has nothing to do with the problem of whether genuine love expressed between consenting adults of the same sex is legitimate or not. Likewise Deut. 23:17-18 must be pruned from the list, since it most likely refers to a heterosexual prostitute involved in Canaanite fertility rites that have infiltrated Jewish worship; the King James Version inaccurately labeled him a "sodomite."

Several other texts are ambiguous. It is not clear whether 1 Cor. 6:9 and 1 Tim. 1:10 refer to the "passive" and "active" partners in homosexual relationships, or to homosexual and heterosexual male prostitutes. In short, it is unclear whether the issue is homosexuality alone, or promiscuity and "sex-for-hire." '

To get to the point, and to sum it up, even one or two quotes I used are somewhat ambiguous. The Greek words used in 1 Corinthians 6:9, for example, denote terms used in that time when referring to 'callboys,' in essence, who were taken to bed by abusive older men, and is a condemnation of that sort of relationship; but as far as applying to the central theme of homosexuality, it does not specifically refer to that.

I'm speaking about that specific example, however. None of the examples anywhere in the Bible say anything positive about, or support, homosexuality, and the 3 or 4 clearcut examples of the Bible's standpoint on it clearly condemn it.

ohio

08-20-2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by gravity
i don't believe that gays should be given the ability to have kids through IVF or sperm donation, that really IS playing God....

You and gravity plus have got to be kidding me. Many gay couples that have children do it through a surrogate mother or father. Is it suddenly okay, because it's done the "good old fashioned way"? Some do it through IVF or sperm donation, but I highly doubt your against those methods when they're used to help a hetero couple with fertility problems. Give me a freakin' break.

Gay couples also adopt quite a bit more than hetero couples. Cleaning up the mess that all that unprotected, unaborted hetero sex left behind. They take kids with no parents, or abusive parents and give them a loving healthy home. Is that ALSO playing god, because those children were not naturally birthed to them?

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by ohio

Gay couples also adopt quite a bit more than hetero couples.

You're saying that more adoptions are done involving gay couples than heterosexual couples? Now that I have a real hard time believing.

I'm not saying it's not true, because I haven't seen statistics, but I'm saying I have a real hard time believing that.

rotecguy

08-20-2002, 11:55 AM

I have no idea what the stats are on this, but I think Ohio might be saying that percentage wise (as in percent of straight couples who adopt vs precentage of gay couples that adopt) the gay couples adopt more. That seems possible, even likely to me. As far as sheer numbers, I doubt it, as there are a LOT more straight couples (as far as I know, but pretty sure here).

ohio

08-20-2002, 12:45 PM

Yeah, rotecguy got what I meant. Sorry for being unclear.

And certainly a lot more would adopt if agencies looked more kindly on same-sex unions...

gravity plus

08-20-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by ohio

You and gravity plus have got to be kidding me. Many gay couples that have children do it through a surrogate mother or father. Is it suddenly okay, because it's done the "good old fashioned way"? Some do it through IVF or sperm donation, but I highly doubt your against those methods when they're used to help a hetero couple with fertility problems. Give me a freakin' break.

Did I say anything like that? No. All I said about the adoption thing is it can screw up the child they adopt psychologicaly.

ohio

08-20-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by gravity plus

Did I say anything like that? No. All I said about the adoption thing is it can screw up the child they adopt psychologicaly.

My bad I misread one of your posts as being a response to Gravity, not Brian.

So, how can adoption by a gay couple screw a kid up psychologically?

gravity plus

08-20-2002, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by ohio

My bad I misread one of your posts as being a response to Gravity, not Brian.

So, how can adoption by a gay couple screw a kid up psychologically?

It's o.k.
Any way. Children X, Y, Z have a mother who is gay, who was married to a man before getting divorced. When children X, Y, Z found out that their mother and father were getting divirced and that their mother was gay, they took it really bad. Child X moved out and never came back, and children Y and Z have small anger problems and depression problems now (after finding out).

*yes, these are real people, I used letters instead of names to protect the people*

*their problems could be from the divorce, but I'm leaning more towards the finding out that their mother is gay*

Brian HCM#1

08-20-2002, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

I read from the NKJV, because it's the most accurately interpreted as compared to the original texts.

According to whom? The majority of narrow minded people? How do you know its been accuratly interpreted? Cause thats what you were told to believe, or thats what your Church reads, so then it has to be the only correct version around.:rolleyes:

gravity plus

08-20-2002, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Cause thats what you were told to believe, or thats what your Church reads, so then it has to be the only correct version around.:rolleyes:

Very good point.

rotecguy

08-20-2002, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by gravity plus

It's o.k.
Any way. Children X, Y, Z have a mother who is gay, who was married to a man before getting divorced. When children X, Y, Z found out that their mother and father were getting divirced and that their mother was gay, they took it really bad. Child X moved out and never came back, and children Y and Z have small anger problems and depression problems now (after finding out).

*yes, these are real people, I used letters instead of names to protect the people*

*their problems could be from the divorce, but I'm leaning more towards the finding out that their mother is gay*

So based on this one example, which is far from conclusive, you are saying that gay parents screw up kids. Interesting. Do you know and screwed up kids with straight parents? I would think that the parents themselves would have more to do it. Personally, I would much rather see a child brough up in a stable, loving household with gay parents than an abusive straight one.

gravity plus

08-20-2002, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by rotecguy

I would much rather see a child brough up in a stable, loving household with gay parents than an abusive straight one.

I would too.

I probly should have said it can screw the child up, but not all the time.:confused:

rotecguy

08-20-2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

And YES I agree that all the evidence that the AMA has amassed IS swaying. So why is it that there ARE plenty of accounts of Christians - yes, they are Christians, although I'm sure there are other faiths that have seen this happen - who used to be homosexual, and then had a spiritual experience, and they were changed for life? Is the fact that it wasn't a 'scientific' experience or the fact that it was not monitored by a study suddenly invalidate every conversion that ever occurred?

I'm not saying YOU are wrong. I'm just saying that there ARE accounts, and just because I can't SCIENTIFICALLY prove them doesn't mean they didn't occur. [/B]

Here is one reason why people don't necessarily accept these accounts using a different example... In fact, I think this pretty much covers why people will not accept evidence published on Christian websites as conclusively supportive of a lot of these arguments. Or some of the reasons anyway.

Take for instance the case of Victims of Alien Abduction. If you looked around, you will find tons of evidence supporting these claims or experiences documented on their websites and in publications from groups of people who beleive in this stuff. If I told you that I know that UFO's exist, and I know this because I read a book written by a fellow who was abducted and probed, would you necessarily beleive it? I doubt I would.

Now, please realise that I am not saying that Christianity is akin to UFO's, aliens, or sasquatches... What I am saying is that there is a reason why people take stuff published on a christian site with a cristian agenda with a very large grain of salt. Hence the desire for more unbiased scientific information... "peer reviewed journals" as Toshi so likes to call for.

Damn True

08-20-2002, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by rotecguy

Here is one reason why people don't necessarily accept these accounts using a different example... In fact, I think this pretty much covers why people will not accept evidence published on Christian websites as conclusively supportive of a lot of these arguments. Or some of the reasons anyway.

Take for instance the case of Victims of Alien Abduction. If you looked around, you will find tons of evidence supporting these claims or experiences documented on their websites and in publications from groups of people who beleive in this stuff. If I told you that I know that UFO's exist, and I know this because I read a book written by a fellow who was abducted and probed, would you necessarily beleive it? I doubt I would.

Now, please realise that I am not saying that Christianity is akin to UFO's, aliens, or sasquatches... What I am saying is that there is a reason why people take stuff published on a christian site with a cristian agenda with a very large grain of salt. Hence the desire for more unbiased scientific information... "peer reviewed journals" as Toshi so likes to call for.

The belief in the "evidence" of homosexuality as a genetic predisposition, or of the big bang, or of global warming and the ozone hole are as equally dependant on faith as any of this. So if you believe one, why not the other?

My guess is because of the things that come with it.

Damn True

08-20-2002, 03:55 PM

rotecguy

08-20-2002, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Damn True

The belief in the "evidence" of homosexuality as a genetic predisposition, or of the big bang, or of global warming and the ozone hole are as equally dependant on faith as any of this. So if you believe one, why not the other?

My guess is because of the things that come with it.

Actually, I don't remember mentioning what I beleive, but thanks for assuming.

When did global warming or the ozone hole get into it? Or the big bang?

Besides, the very same could apply to you... If you beleive in one, why not the other?

Basically, after looking through a couple of threads, I have seen it asked, "why won't people accept this as evidence?" and I was trying to share my take on why.

dh girlie

08-20-2002, 04:03 PM

Damn True

08-20-2002, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by rotecguy

Actually, I don't remember mentioning what I beleive, but thanks for assuming. Sorry bout that, it was a general statement, not a direct reply to your thoughts.

When did global warming or the ozone hole get into it? Or the big bang?
By virtue of the fact that people believe in them without and REAL proof of them yet call the belief in God or following the teachings of Christ thoughtless or blind faith. I can't proove Jesus was the son of God and you can't prove the Big Bang. What makes one belief less viable than another?

Besides, the very same could apply to you... If you beleive in one, why not the other?

Basically, after looking through a couple of threads, I have seen it asked, "why won't people accept this as evidence?" and I was trying to share my take on why.

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
According to whom? The majority of narrow minded people? How do you know its been accuratly interpreted? Cause thats what you were told to believe, or thats what your Church reads, so then it has to be the only correct version around.:rolleyes:

You know, after a while statements like this get old.

I know it may be tough for people to believe, but there are ACTUALLY Christians out there *hint* that go and VERIFY things they have been told. Non-Christians and the intelligentsia don't have a monopoly on research and fact-finding.

The KJV version is more accurate because it remains as true to the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS (found in such places as Qumran, to name one) as possible. It does not sacrifice accuracy for the sake of 'readibility,' as the NIV version, for instance, does.

Below is a statement or two from "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict" written my Josh McDowell, concerning the number of original manuscripts as it relates to the accuracy of the New Testament.

"F. E. Peters states that "on the basis of manuscript tradition alone, the works that made up the Christians' New Testament were the most frequently copied and widely circulated books of antiquity." As a result, the fidelity of the New Testament text rests on a multitude of manuscript evidence. Counting Greek copies alone, the New Testament is preserved in some 5,656 partial and complete manuscript portions that were copied by hand from the second through the fifteenth centuries.
There are now more than 5,686 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testatment. Add over 10,000 Latin Vulgate and at least 9,300 other early versions, and we have close to, if not more than, 25,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today. No other document of antiquity even begins to approach such numbers and attestation. In comparison, Homer's Iliad is second, with 643 manuscripts that still survive. The first complete preserved text of Homer dates from the thirteenth century."

(I've omitted the footnotes simply because it's more typing I'd have to do. I'd be glad to put them up here.)

There is a LOT more information I could put up here....this is just an 'intro' of sorts. But the point is that very few people question the accuracy or the historical 'correctness' of the ancient classics, despite the fact that there exists today FAR more original New Testament manuscripts that are much smaller in the difference of time between the original writing and the date of the manuscripts. But yet the Bible gets questioned all the time.

Yes, I'm quite sure people can go and find something wrong with ANY argument presented. I can go and find evidence (EVIDENCE) all day long to support and prove my views, and so can anyone who is of the opposite view. That gets us nowhere. I have no problem if someone differs with my point of view. But don't go around accusing me of being devoid of thought or free will simply because I am a Christian.

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Damn True

Narrow minded extremists are easy to find regardless of which side of the issue you look.

Ouch. *L*

Damn True

08-20-2002, 04:36 PM

But don't go around accusing me of being devoid of thought or free will simply because I am a Christian.

Exactly.
When did non-Christians develop exclusive rights to critical thought?

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 04:42 PM

I thought I'd put this up here just for grins. I'm sure some will argue with it (I'd expect no less :D) but oh well.

I think it should be mentioned here that my aim, when posting responses, is not to try to disprove other's beliefs or notions or what have you. It is not to prove that 'what I believe is better than what you believe.' (Or at least it shouldn't be. I'm sure at times I'm a victim of frustration or such, but I think anyone who has posted in this board can say the same.) My purpose here is simply to 'stick up' for my side, and get rid of the silly notion that ALL Christians are robots, brainwashed into believing what they believe, totally devoid of free will or independent thought.

Granted, there ARE plenty of them out there who DO believe simply it's 'cool' or because it's what their parents and THEIR parents have done since whenever. I'm not arguing that. And I'm not arguing that other points of view have no validity. But both sides can bring evidence to the table all day long, and both sides will find SOMETHING wrong with the others' point of view. I'm sure I'm guilty of that a few times myself. I don't care what people believe (although yes, by virtue of what I myself believe, I've got a heart that wishes that others would know Why I believe what I do). I just get tired of people attacking people like me because of stereotypes and presupposed notions about what I'm like or what I believe or WHY I believe. (The notion that I have no clue why I 'think' the KJV version of the Bible is more accurate than others is a good example.)

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by rotecguy

Now, please realise that I am not saying that Christianity is akin to UFO's, aliens, or sasquatches... What I am saying is that there is a reason why people take stuff published on a christian site with a cristian agenda with a very large grain of salt. Hence the desire for more unbiased scientific information... "peer reviewed journals" as Toshi so likes to call for.

I can definitely agree with that point of view, about wanting more 'peer-reviewed journals.' There's just two problems with that, and they're 'linked' sort of. One, there ARE plenty of people out there who have provided scientific proof for views supported by the Christian 'community.' Just because you haven't gone out and found them doesn't mean they're not there. There ARE plenty of Christians and Christian websites that just put junk out there that supports their view, and never bother to back it up with any research or evidence. I definitely don't argue that. But that doesn't mean that suddenly all Christian viewpoints are suddenly null and void whether they come with proof/facts/evidence or not.

Two, the vast majority of people who are arguing the Christian point of view as far as backing up their viewpoints go, are Christians. (Duh. *L*) That fact alone sort of 'tilts the playing field' I think. I don't know too many non-Christians arguing the Christian point of view.

rotecguy

08-20-2002, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Damn True

By virtue of the fact that people believe in them without and REAL proof of them yet call the belief in God or following the teachings of Christ thoughtless or blind faith. I can't proove Jesus was the son of God and you can't prove the Big Bang. What makes one belief less viable than another?

nothing makes one belief less viable than the other, as long as people understand that their beliefs are just that... their beliefs.

I never said ya'll were wrong. Of course I never said ya'll were right either. The problem is that a lot of Christians (not anyone in this discussion in particular) like to try and force their beleifs and values onto others, and while sometimes it doesn't really hurt anyone, sometimes it does, and that ain't right. Unfortunately, that is the impression that a lot of folks have, and that is the notion that sits in the back of their minds when they read what you or fourgivn1 write.

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by dh girlie

**applause** VERY well said, Toshi...I agree.

I have a cousin that is openly gay. Since he was a young kid, my parents thought that he was very effeminate and was probably gay. Now why would a 7 year old kid CHOOSE to be fashionably gay?

I don't know why he would choose to be gay. I don't think he WOULD choose to be gay. This quote was taken from a response to one of my posts. The original post said

"Seriously, I will have to say that homosexuals (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense) are NOT created by God. There are countless accounts of homosexuals of either gender having a spiritual experience, getting 'saved' or asking forgiveness, and *boom* suddenly for the rest of their life they are 'straight' with absolutely NO desires of going back to the way they were. It seems to me if you are created by God a certain way, you really can't change that. I hesitate to call it a 'chemical imbalance' in the brain because I really don't know WHAT causes it, but considering God made us in His image, and considering the Bible condemns homosexuality, I DON'T think Jesus was gay."

If you take a look at that post, you will find that nowhere did I say that people CHOOSE to be gay, and nowhere did I say that I condemn anyone who is gay. I simply argued that I do not believe that God creates people to be homosexual. I just want to make this clear.

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by rotecguy

The problem is that a lot of Christians (not anyone in this discussion in particular) like to try and force their beleifs and values onto others, and while sometimes it doesn't really hurt anyone, sometimes it does, and that ain't right. Unfortunately, that is the impression that a lot of folks have, and that is the notion that sits in the back of their minds when they read what you or fourgivn1 write.

Very true, very true. I agree with this. It just upsets me that anyone thinks that my presenting my views on this website, just as others have presented their views, amounts to forcing my beliefs/values on others.

I'd like to note that someone else asked the whole "Is Jesus gay" question first. I just answered it. :D I'm innocent, I tell ya.

rotecguy

08-20-2002, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

I can definitely agree with that point of view, about wanting more 'peer-reviewed journals.' There's just two problems with that, and they're 'linked' sort of. One, there ARE plenty of people out there who have provided scientific proof for views supported by the Christian 'community.' Just because you haven't gone out and found them doesn't mean they're not there. There ARE plenty of Christians and Christian websites that just put junk out there that supports their view, and never bother to back it up with any research or evidence. I definitely don't argue that. But that doesn't mean that suddenly all Christian viewpoints are suddenly null and void whether they come with proof/facts/evidence or not.

Two, the vast majority of people who are arguing the Christian point of view as far as backing up their viewpoints go, are Christians. (Duh. *L*) That fact alone sort of 'tilts the playing field' I think. I don't know too many non-Christians arguing the Christian point of view.

I agree with you on the problem there... And all Christian viewpoints are not null and void because of what I brought up, I just wanted to point out why a lot of the evidence that you bring up is not accepted. I wasn't really trying to argue the validity of either side, just to point out a different way of looking at things.

The other thing to remember, is that if one runs into enough crackpots damning you to hell because you read Harry Potter/Dance suggestively/have premarital sex/beleive in evolution (circle one or more as appropriate) you tend to dismiss any claims of similar nature.

In general though, I think that a lot of these discussions are really interesting, and I think it is pretty cool that people put as much time into keeping them going!

rotecguy

08-20-2002, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

Very true, very true. I agree with this. It just upsets me that anyone thinks that my presenting my views on this website, just as others have presented their views, amounts to forcing my beliefs/values on others.

I'd like to note that someone else asked the whole "Is Jesus gay" question first. I just answered it. :D I'm innocent, I tell ya.

seriously, I want to be clear that I don't really think you are forcing your views on anyone else really, just sharing them... and people asked. If I ask you what you think about something, and you tell me honestly, I shouldn't really be offended.

Of course, maybe you engineered the question and everything, and this is some sort of conspiracy... Innocent my eye! :)

Thing is though, not everyone is like that. And unfortunately, the most outspoken folks are rarely the resonable ones, it seems.

dh girlie

08-20-2002, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

I don't know why he would choose to be gay. I don't think he WOULD choose to be gay. This quote was taken from a response to one of my posts. The original post said

If you take a look at that post, you will find that nowhere did I say that people CHOOSE to be gay, and nowhere did I say that I condemn anyone who is gay. I simply argued that I do not believe that God creates people to be homosexual. I just want to make this clear.

If you take a look at my post, you will find that nowhere did I say that you said that people choose to be gay.

I'm simply saying I believe there may be something that occurs within the genes or the brain that may determine someones sexual preference. I don't know this for a fact, but if people were saying they thought my cousin might have homosexual tendencies at age 7, there has to be something going on chemically, because why would a 7 year old just decide to be gay? I think there are plenty of people out there that choose to say they are gay for the shock value or other reasons unbeknownst to me....I worked with a guy that I believe claimed bi-sexuality to see the shock register on the faces of those he would blurt it out to...when he told me and I didn't falter, he never brought it up again, however, an older lady from a very strict Catholic family was flabbergasted, and that just egged him on....go figure...

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by dh girlie

If you take a look at my post, you will find that nowhere did I say that you said that people choose to be gay.

I'm simply saying I believe there may be something that occurs within the genes or the brain that may determine someones sexual preference. I don't know this for a fact, but if people were saying they thought my cousin might have homosexual tendencies at age 7, there has to be something going on chemically, because why would a 7 year old just decide to be gay? I think there are plenty of people out there that choose to say they are gay for the shock value or other reasons unbeknownst to me....I worked with a guy that I believe claimed bi-sexuality to see the shock register on the faces of those he would blurt it out to...when he told me and I didn't falter, he never brought it up again, however, an older lady from a very strict Catholic family was flabbergasted, and that just egged him on....go figure...

I apologize to you, then; I didn't mean to say that you said that I said......:) (You know what I'm trying to say? :D

As far as why a 7-year old might decide to be gay.....you ask why. I ask why NOT? Yeah, I don't think very many people at ALL just get up and say "Hmm, I think I'm gonna be homosexual today." Probably almost NONE of them do. But that still does not mean that we're created by God this way.

An observation.....I've noticed that the vast majority of the people who are arguing against people being homosexuals by choice are non-Christians....who evidently don't believe in the God that I'm arguing does not create homosexuals.

dh girlie

08-20-2002, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

I apologize to you, then; I didn't mean to say that you said that I said......:) (You know what I'm trying to say? :D

As far as why a 7-year old might decide to be gay.....you ask why. I ask why NOT? Yeah, I don't think very many people at ALL just get up and say "Hmm, I think I'm gonna be homosexual today." Probably almost NONE of them do. But that still does not mean that we're created by God this way.

An observation.....I've noticed that the vast majority of the people who are arguing against people being homosexuals by choice are non-Christians....who evidently don't believe in the God that I'm arguing does not create homosexuals.

Yeah I feel ya, I feel ya...no need to apologize...

Brian HCM#1

08-20-2002, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

I"Seriously, I will have to say that homosexuals (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense) are NOT created by God. There are countless accounts of homosexuals of either gender having a spiritual experience, getting 'saved' or asking forgiveness, and *boom* suddenly for the rest of their life they are 'straight' with absolutely NO desires of going back to the way they were. It seems to me if you are created by God a certain way, you really can't change that. I hesitate to call it a 'chemical imbalance' in the brain because I really don't know WHAT causes it, but considering God made us in His image, and considering the Bible condemns homosexuality, I DON'T think Jesus was gay."

If you take a look at that post, you will find that nowhere did I say that people CHOOSE to be gay, and nowhere did I say that I condemn anyone who is gay. I simply argued that I do not believe that God creates people to be homosexual. I just want to make this clear. How can you say that gays are not created by God? Aren't we ALL Gods children? Being Gay is not a choice, that is the way that particular person feels and that can't be changed. I believe its the same gene that makes us attracted to a certian person, by the way they look, body, hair color/type etc. There is something in your body that attracts you to that paticular thing about that person. Are you married? Did you chose your spouse? Or did your family arrange it for you if you are involved? I will stop now if your family arranged your relationship, but if you chose your spouse, what made you attracted to that one person, that made you decide you wanted to be with that person the rest of your life? Its that feeling inside that directed you that way? Probably so.

Brian HCM#1

08-20-2002, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by fourgivn1

An observation.....I've noticed that the vast majority of the people who are arguing against people being homosexuals by choice are non-Christians....who evidently don't believe in the God that I'm arguing does not create homosexuals. Please start opening your closed little mind, why is it only Christians that seem to believe its mostly a choice to be gay? And getting back to the bible. Maybe there were lots of people back then when the bible was being writen that was gay and the person writing the bible was against it and thought that by writing it down it may change the course of history and there will be no more gays cause thats what it say's in black & white.

Damn True

08-20-2002, 06:15 PM

I never said ya'll were wrong. Of course I never said ya'll were right either. The problem is that a lot of Christians (not anyone in this discussion in particular) like to try and force their beleifs and values onto others, and while sometimes it doesn't really hurt anyone, sometimes it does, and that ain't right.

Again, that door swings both ways (bi-sexuality pun not intended).

There is a segement (not all of them mind you) of the gay community that adamatly demands the recognition, acceptance, and inclusion of their "way of life" as normal and healthy, yet they shun similar efforts by the Christian community as intrusive.

SIDE NOTE:
What's with bi-sexuals anyway? I just think they are greedy.:D

Damn True

08-20-2002, 06:17 PM

Damn True

08-20-2002, 06:22 PM

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Please start opening your closed little mind, why is it only Christians that seem to believe its mostly a choice to be gay? And getting back to the bible. Maybe there were lots of people back then when the bible was being writen that was gay and the person writing the bible was against it and thought that by writing it down it may change the course of history and there will be no more gays cause thats what it say's in black & white.

I don't know HOW many times I have to say that I DID NOT SAY it was a choice. Jeez. I also said I don't know exactly WHAT it is that makes us gay - whether it's an 'original sin' that some are subject to and others aren't, or whether it is a 'chemical imbalance' or a product of environment, or what have you. I could go on responding to this post, but so far you've implied I have free thought, and then said I havea a closed mind. Arguing this point isn't worth it with someone who is just as closed minded to my arguments as I evidently am to theirs.

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Damn True

Chalk another one up the the vast right wing conspiracy eh Brian? Heck, we are probably responsible for the extintion of the dinosaurs as well.

Also global warming, UFOs, the current Snakefish infestation, probably the West Nile virus......:D

fourgivn1

08-20-2002, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Maybe there were lots of people back then when the bible was being writen that was gay and the person writing the bible was against it and thought that by writing it down it may change the course of history and there will be no more gays cause thats what it say's in black & white.

Hold on a second...I just caught this. You're essentially saying that the, uh, ONE person who wrote the Bible :rolleyes: back then could have possibly been a homophobe, and decided to write the Bible in order to assist in stamping out homosexuality.

*ROTFLOL* I'm sorry, this just made me laugh. Yeah, I know it was a 'hypothetical' situation *L* but it IS funny. :D I'm going to go to bed on that note. :)