Reviving XC Racing - Your Input Needed

[RideMonkey]

I posted this earlier in the racing forum but though it would make a good front page discussion

Over the years XC racing has become more and more a non-technical sport that caters to fitness almost exclusively while neglecting handling skills and bicycle technology. XC racing is a poor sport for spectators. Its hard to watch because the courses are so long. Rigid frames and 63-80 mm forks are still the norm because the courses are generally non-demanding from a technical standpoint. Bike companies are not getting much exposure for the latest and greatest in suspension technology and other technical advances on the newest bikes.

Short track racing was created as a more spectator friendly form of racing. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to professional racing. Short track is glorified road racing. Its not technical at all! I wouldn't be surprised to see people showing up on Cyclocross bikes to race short track!

XC racing is on the decline. The best pro racers are turning to road racing or even triathalon so that they have a chance to make some money. I feel that 2 things need to be done to save professional XC racing: make it an exciting spectator sport and make racing more valuable to bicycle industry sponsors by making it a showcase for new technology.

Here is an idea for a new venue that is spectator friendly, exciting, and will showcase technology:

First of all put the mountain back in the biking. Those short track races are glorified road courses. Not technical at all. XC racing needs to be a showcase for new technology like downhill is. Downhill has become a much more interesting sport because its spectator friendly, fun to watch, and is driven by the latest technology.

How about this: XC 4 cross. Make a mile long course that has ramps, water crossings, rock gardens, etc. Make it super technical. The kind of course that would be suited to trail bikes with 4 inches of travel on each end. Have alternate routes around difficult obstacles so that anyone can participate, but make the obstacles a line that would save time for the riders with superior handling skills. So that the obstacles do not become bottlenecks in the course, run 4 racers at a time in 4 cross style.

And voila! We have a spectator friendly event that is exciting to watch, encourages the use of the latest MTB technology, and rewards both fitness and handling skills.

Any input on this idea is welcome.

This is another one of those threads where only thoughtful, mature responses are welcome.

[Woggle Bear]

Yea!

We were tossing a similar idea around here, in Louisiana, becouse we have no "mountains" for downhill or dual. And like you said the XC scene is too full of roadies. I sugested a long natural and man-made BMX type of course about one to two miles long that would stress all aspects of bike skills (jumping, speed trials, BMX, NS, fitness, etc.) but we were looking at 10 person motos with BMX type starts. It also seems that it would be much easier to run in areas with land access issues.

A sanctioning body would have to be created to get it all going, or something simular.

Glad to see we are not the only ones that think the current state of racing is lame.

WB

[MikeD]

Well, I posted this under BMXman's Future of DH post a while back, but it never drew much commentary there...(Maybe I should take a hint?) However, it seems sort of applicable here as well. In general, I think all mtbing is going to take a more technical and technological format or it will die. Our old categories of riding and racing are breaking down in any case, and the term 'freeride' is useless in any specific sense.

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This may sound a bit naive, but I'd love to see a new form of racing emerge...

The Red Bull event was cool, but not accessible to the average guy/gal...it wasn't meant to be. But maybe there could be an event based on more techical riding, probably at slower speeds than your average DH run with some fast bits thrown in. Some drops, tight twisty stuff, big rocks. No huge supercross-style doubles or anything like that. Some short uphills could be incorporated, but nothing like the Snow Summit style "Super D" courses, where you have one or two long boring fireroad climbs to exahust you before you start the downward fireroad ride. That event is fairly lame. Some built-up obstacles thrown in would spice things up...have a long slow line and a short crazy line through them.

So then we could all be northshore posers if we wanted to be! A hardtail class and perhaps multi-chainring (or Rohloff)/single chainring FS classes would be interesting...

I realize it's sort of contradictory to make freeriding into a race event, but doing it could be a good thing...harder trails would become more common everywhere if this style of riding could be popularized. Though we tend to think of ourselves here on RM as the mainstream cycling community, we're really a hardcore fringe element. Many mountain bikers have never even heard of downhilling as an event.

I just see racing as a way to bring people of like interests and mindsets together...most of us couldn't care less about winning a weekend bike race in the larger picture of our lives.
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-Mike

[jhusktrials]

4 person seems like too few. But all in all that sounds very exciting.
I would reccomend 10 people atleast on the course. If you make it skill oriented you could even get DHer, trials riders, and bmxers to compete.
I would have to agree that the race scene is too based on how much a person trains, and not on how good of a rider they are.

[MikeD]

I think we're all pointing towards an enduro style format. Was discussing this with another DH-type :monkey: ... any race is more fun when done on a challenging trail that seems more natural and remote than a groomed DH, DS, 4x, or short track XC course (or fireroad style XC course).

Head to head competition seems way XTREME these days, too....

[RideMonkey]

Wouldn't it be neato if we could pull something like this off and create a series infinitely more popular than what the disfunctional NORBA is providing?

These events would be well suited for ski resorts. We would have DH, Dual (or Mountain Cross if thats what people want), and this new XC format racing.

I like XC racing (not short track). I'm wondering if having XC racing as separate series like we see with the great Winterpark series here in Colorado would not be better? Let sanctioning organizations specialize somewhat so that they can provide better service?

[-dustin]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
I posted this earlier in the racing forum but though it would make a good front page discussion

Over the years...

so the race would just cover one mile? doesn't that cancel out the "cross-country" aspect of XC racing?

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by the Inbred


so the race would just cover one mile? doesn't that cancel out the "cross-country" aspect of XC racing?

Multiple laps.

[Revol]

First off please excuse any miss spellings,I've just got in from a good night out and can't sleep:D

Some sort of enduro type racing would be a good idea.As The Inbred says even multiple laps would take out the "cross country" aspect of it.Having just had the Commonwealth games here in England and witnessing the MTB racing you can understand why the general public just aren't interested in XC any more.The race was more of just a time trial on dirt than propper MOUNTAIN bike race.Hell,our top XC girl lost out on a gold medal cos she didnt pack spairs to even fix a flat tyre propperly.What was she expecting,a Mavic service car like the Tour??
XC is very much in danger of becoming extinct.I'm not the fittest person and knowing that the courses aren't gonna have any technical sections where I may catch another rider I tend not to bother with XC as much as I used to.How many others must feel the same way?
What is called for is more of the adventure aspect to come into play.Longer distances,less outside support and more of a technical challenge.
Of course this isn't exactly gonna drag in the crowds of spectators either but surely a special section could be included to put on a show for the masses?

As I said just my late night ramblings.
Nite nite :monkey:'s

[Surly]

The 10 man start/technical course/2 mile laps sound like a great idea. I don't race, and really have never considered it for the reasons listed above. I have started training to do some 24hr events next spring--mostly because it's a chance to ride with my buddies, and it resembles real mountain biking.
If something like this were available, though, I can name at least 5-10 guys (including me) off the top of my head who would love to compete at an amatuer level. Who wants to help get it started in Socal?

[Woggle Bear]

The Enduro format is a great idea. I went to a few Moto Enduros last summer and thought that it was what XC racing needed to evolve to. Longer courses with "tests" every few miles. It would weed out the poor riders quickly.

But I still like the 2 mile 10 man technical course. They could be done in almost any park or riding area. We have 6 places here in north Louisiana that would be great for it. It could even be done in a urban setting, stairs, drop offs, jumps, alleys, etc!

That is the problem with racing today. DH/BX can only be done in a few states. XC is limited to places with lots of land that have trails. This format could be done pretty much any where!

WB
:D :D :D :D :D

[mikec918]

I think the biggest problems with Cross Country racing started when we started worrying about weither specators would like it or not.

Screw Norba, The local state and regional race seiries are where Cross Country racing is at. So what If Cross country racing becomes a pure particpation sport with the only one there are the racers, their familys and a few friends all there to have a good thing I do not see that as a bad thing.

Most 10ks Maratons and Tris have very few specators it the racers that are inportant in these events.

Why do you think the 24hr races are so popular. It's not because you might see some Pro racers. Its because it's a chance for you and your friends to push yourselves and have a great time.

When I do a race and see 200-300 racers out there The last thinking I worry about it is , Dam I'm so down because Mtn biking is not on the Wide Wide World of Sports.

I for one would never do a race on a 2 or 3 mile course. Oh yes doing laps around the same 2 mile course for 60-90 minutes oh what fun. Oh I think Down hill and Mtn Cross are cool but they are not for everyone. Why do you think they have 5k 10ks and Maratons. and Sprint, Olympic, half ironman and Ironman races. Its because only 10-15% of people racing have a chance of winning the remainder of us are there for the personal challenge.

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by mikec918
I think the biggest problems with Cross Country racing started when we started worrying about weither specators would like it or not.

Screw Norba, The local state and regional race seiries are where Cross Country racing is at. So what If Cross country racing becomes a pure particpation sport with the only one there are the racers, their familys and a few friends all there to have a good thing I do not see that as a bad thing.

Most 10ks Maratons and Tris have very few specators it the racers that are inportant in these events.

Why do you think the 24hr races are so popular. It's not because you might see some Pro racers. Its because it's a chance for you and your friends to push yourselves and have a great time.

When I do a race and see 200-300 racers out there The last thinking I worry about it is , Dam I'm so down because Mtn biking is not on the Wide Wide World of Sports.

I for one would never do a race on a 2 or 3 mile course. Oh yes doing laps around the same 2 mile course for 60-90 minutes oh what fun. Oh I think Down hill and Mtn Cross are cool but they are not for everyone. Why do you think they have 5k 10ks and Maratons. and Sprint, Olympic, half ironman and Ironman races. Its because only 10-15% of people racing have a chance of winning the remainder of us are there for the personal challenge.

In amateur racing what the racer enjoys has a lot of relevance. Not so much in professional sports. Professional sports relies on the money it can generate to be successful. The current formula for World Cup and norba racing is not working. Professional racing needs to be as much about pleasing the fans and the sponsors as it is about satisfying the racers. Thats why the racers get paid.

There is nothing wrong with amateur XC racing. But its not really much of a showcase for all this great new technology that is out there.

I do endurace events, long XC, 24 hour etc, yet I would be excited about trying a new technically oriented format.

I'm not talking about racing 2 miles for 60 to 90 miles. Its two miles of very technical riding and thats the entire race. Winners of the heat move up to the next bracket and race again. It would be fun for racers - escpecially those that can't devote the time to train a lot for longer events. It would be great for spectators.

[mikec918]

Originally posted by RideMonkey


In amateur racing what the racer enjoys has a lot of relevance. Not so much in professional sports. Professional sports relies on the money it can generate to be successful. The current formula for World Cup and norba racing is not working. Professional racing needs to be as much about pleasing the fans and the sponsors as it is about satisfying the racers. Thats why the racers get paid.

There is nothing wrong with amateur XC racing. But its not really much of a showcase for all this great new technology that is out there.

I do endurace events, long XC, 24 hour etc, yet I would be excited about trying a new technically oriented format.

I'm not talking about racing 2 miles for 60 to 90 miles. Its two miles of very technical riding and thats the entire race. Winners of the heat move up to the next bracket and race again. It would be fun for racers - escpecially those that can't devote the time to train a lot for longer events. It would be great for spectators.

Nothing wrong with giving people more choices. I just donot want to see these things are replacements for the classic Cross Country Race. As Alternatives they give riders a chance to try new skills or could bring new people to the sport of mtn biking both of which are good things.


I still see the biggest problem of increasing the spectar base of mtn biking is getting people to the races. I think if you took a survey of the NON ride racing population and asked them if the would comeout to watch a MTN bike if you made any of the changes you suggested you would get a 99% NO,,which is the answer we get with the format we use now. Oh and at 2.7 millon if we could get 1% of the population to watch a MTN bike race each year that would be amazing.

Also I dont think Professional Mtn bike racers are that inportant to Mtn biking.

Another thing to think about when watching UCI World Cup and NORBA Pros racing is the Lance and Jan Factor. IE the Camera's follow the best racers who make it look easy. Every Cross Country Race on OLN spends 90% of the time following Roland, so they look easy. I think we might get a better apprichation for these courses if we could see how the other riders were doing.

To all you Free Riders out there how much inpact did some Pro Racer have on you putting 2000-4000 dollars into your ride? Does the fact that the technology in your rides has not been race tested in a UCI or NORBA event have any impact on your purchase.

[Roasted]

I think something just more technical. Test the skills and endurance of a rider. I recently rode with a rider from out east and took him on one of my xc courses out here. On anything flat he smoked me. Once we came to anything technical, rocky, rooty or steep he had no chance of keeping up. He had the lungs but no 'power' or any real skills.

I think to keep with the xc ideal it would still need to be of some distance with 80% pedalling.Don't put anything too technical as it alienates the xc riders as well. Make it so we could have freeriders and xc riders on one course competing instead of another excuse to hate each other.

There are many races in the whistler area which do similar things to this. Our terrain cators to this kind of racing and it is fun to watch and the riders are in unbelievable condition (strong, technical AND have a tonne of endurance). In flatter parts of the country man made could add the technical aspect. Whenever anyone asks the type of riding I do I always say xc/freeriding. I am not insanse enough to be a true freerider but I like the skill required to ride extremely tough and demanding terrain.

[Roasted]

Ok I can't seem to edit so I am gonna double post.

to mikec918:

What a pro rides has nothing to do with what I buy. I don't care about race tested cause I have learned a couple of things talking to my sponsored buddies. They don't get normal parts. Most sponsored riders (including sponsored roadies) get special frames and parts. I speak with the people who ride and destroy parts like myself and find the best value to strength ratio.

For example from experience I destroy deraileurs. I also don't find deraileurs make a huge difference in my shifting once I get to a deore or higher level. At that point it is all about weight. Guess what I am strong enough to not worry about the 300g difference (I even have dh rims on the rear of my bike cause of my size and strengths). What does this mean. I buy cheap and replace often. A deore der is only 60$ while the xtr is 200$. I have 3.5 chances to break my deraileur. Thats a sweet deal imo.

I give total kudos to the xc scene. The have tonnes of endurance. But really there is nothing,imo, for the average all round rider to watch. Red bull is fun but I don't EVER plan to drop 50ft just for ****s and giggles. I am not a dh, 4cross rider so it bores me (except live when they crash), Trials are too slow (skills beyond belief). There is no comprimise on tv that I can find.

[Foxx]

The XC courses are way too watered down now. The paths are all manicured of anything remotely difficult, and seem to be more of an endurance test than technical skill.

I think XC racing should be like riding through you favourite singletrack going over or around rock gardens, streams/creeks, climbs, short/long descents, bridges, roots, and whatever else makes for an interesting ride!

maybe they should rename it TRAIL RACING

[Heidi]

I already posted this under your other post but I totally agree RM. I would show up to a race like the one you described in a heart beat. If you build it, I will come!

Seriously, I have raced on quite a few lame XC courses over the short 2 years I have been racing. If I hadn't already paid my fees, I wouldn't have bothered racing. I race to have fun and a course such as the one you described would be fun for racers and spectators as well.

[mikec918]

Originally posted by Foxx
The XC courses are way too watered down now. The paths are all manicured of anything remotely difficult, and seem to be more of an endurance test than technical skill.

I think XC racing should be like riding through you favourite singletrack going over or around rock gardens, streams/creeks, climbs, short/long descents, bridges, roots, and whatever else makes for an interesting ride!

maybe they should rename it TRAIL RACING

Foxx,

You've pretty much described Virginia Cross Country Mountain Bike Racing. 80-90% wooded single track with logs to bunny hop, short steep twisted rooted climbs and descents.

[mikec918]

Originally posted by RideMonkey


In amateur racing what the racer enjoys has a lot of relevance. Not so much in professional sports. Professional sports relies on the money it can generate to be successful. The current formula for World Cup and norba racing is not working. Professional racing needs to be as much about pleasing the fans and the sponsors as it is about satisfying the racers. Thats why the racers get paid.

There is nothing wrong with amateur XC racing. But its not really much of a showcase for all this great new technology that is out there.

I do endurace events, long XC, 24 hour etc, yet I would be excited about trying a new technically oriented format.

I'm not talking about racing 2 miles for 60 to 90 miles. Its two miles of very technical riding and thats the entire race. Winners of the heat move up to the next bracket and race again. It would be fun for racers - escpecially those that can't devote the time to train a lot for longer events. It would be great for spectators.


One suggest I would make would to have everyone do the course maybe 3-5 times and then have the times averaged with persons with the best total times being the winner. Maybe even have mulitple 1-2 Mile courses each a little different requiring everyone to race on each course. that way you could increase the number of riders racing at one time. Spectars could move from course to course to checkout the action. You coould even run 4, 6,12 and 24 hour races to really test riders endurance aswell as technical skills. By running three, 5 person course and releasing groups of riders at every 3-5 minutes you would could supprt a good number of racer each hour aswell as providing almost not stop action for the fans

Beginners do 3 runs
Sports do 5 Runs
Experts do 7 runs
Pros do 8 runs

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by mikec918



One suggest I would make would to have everyone do the course maybe 3-5 times and then have the times averaged with persons with the best total times being the winner. Maybe even have mulitple 1-2 Mile courses each a little different requiring everyone to race on each course. that way you could increase the number of riders racing at one time. Spectars could move from course to course to checkout the action. You coould even run 4, 6,12 and 24 hour races to really test riders endurance aswell as technical skills. By running three, 5 person course and releasing groups of riders at every 3-5 minutes you would could supprt a good number of racer each hour aswell as providing almost not stop action for the fans

Beginners do 3 runs
Sports do 5 Runs
Experts do 7 runs
Pros do 8 runs

Head to head action is much more fun. How cool would it be to know that if you messed up one run you might have a chance to rest and regroup and go for it again?

I started XC racing 15 years ago. I'm bored. Time for something new!

[The Toninator]

What’s the problem from a spectator’s point of view? They can’t see the action. We as racers know it’s there but the spectators do not have access to it. So you have to bring the race to the spectators and market it to a TV audience.
Solution
expter/simi/pro put cameras on the bikes/riders like auto racing and set up camera towers (golf, auto racing) near accessible spots with views the course over all (or as much and is can get) and close ups of technical racing action and leave inaccessible areas for the remote bike cams. The cameras would actually be pretty lightweight because they would only need to transmit and would only have to transmit a short distance to a near by remote tower (cutting down on the amount of power you need) and then the remote tower would then transmit that to the a/v command center.

The result is whoring out our love. With more people watching the more advertise pump money in to the media machine the more expose and bastardization of the sport we will see. More people will go to Wal-Mart and buy bike and more traffic will start appearing on our trails and more accidents, more erosion and the more headaches we will encounter.
ON the flipside the more profit potential the more venues that will become available, possibly.

(ps your ideal does sound fun but we have some very technical courses and I would like to race them the way they are)

[Woggle Bear]

I agree with RM, the head to head action is great. Go to a local BMX race or better yet enter in the crusier class your self. It is as real as it gets. I started racing XC 6 years ago, it was fun but lacked something. I raced a season of BMX in 2001 it was great, tons more fun than XC. Alot more skill involved.
Alot more fun than spinning around on a smooth dirt path looking at my heart rate and worrying about cadence.

Just my 2 cents worth,
WB

[neversummersnow]

I really like the main idea of a 4x XC. I mean this is my last year racing XC as a priority at all. Next year it is going to be DH and Cat 3 road racing. XC has become road without tactics so its even more boring than any road race I've recently done. Some might think I'm weird for being on two opposit ends of the spectrum, but road keeps me in shape (for DH) and DH keeps me motivated and having fun.

[-dustin]

eh....so i'm watching the Showshoe short track right now. this is pretty boring.

[Foxx]

doesn't matter if it's XC, 4X MC, DH, whatever, I like it all, but I still wish the XC stuff was a little more interesting like in the beginning. If it gets anymore refined, I may as well go back to road racing.

[Gutty]

Excuse me if this has been covered already,

2000 olympics XC, i couldn't get tickets-sold out. I did not hear one good word about the event from people that went though. Most seemed dissapointed that they couldn't see the riders for more than a few seconds as they rode by.

How would this work ?
Take a mountain X or dual course, make it wide enough for atleast 4-6 guys and give it a 10man start gate. Run the course then hit the track that takes you winding back up the hill for another lap of the MX course. The uphill could be as technical or lame as you like but it still gives the spectator something to watch the whole way through the race. Do as many laps as you deem neccesary to make it an endurance event. Also the jumps could have roll-arounds so those with less skill can still ride the course.
This kind of event would/could also see many different bike types in one race. You could have some guys/girls with the full on XC climber setup of HT with long stem who would excel at the uphill part but may have to do all the roll-arounds for the jumps. Then you might have some people useing a more DS setup so as to clear all the jumps on the MX course but maybe struggle a bit on the up hill. Take the bike that is going to help the most with what skills you have.

I hope all that made sense.
Thats my dribble on it.

[peter6061]

Maybe this 10 man 4x lap scheme could replace the current short track setup, which I agree is boring as hell.

Why are we worried again though about the mass audience viewing our sport? Why can't we just ride / race / whatever...

How about going back to having stage races where people HAVE to compete in all the events DH, XC, 4X, ST(new), etc,... Maybe that would make each event a little more interesting for those who care to watch.

I raced XC for years and gave it up a few back. Just stopped being fun. I wouldn't say this is a problem that has just begun, but one that began back in the early to mid 90's when the courses started getting used too much, and turned into smooth tracks.

I say, keep XC for those who want it, keep ST if you want, come up with new ideas that may replace current ones, and race whatever you feel like.

For me, I'm out of the XC game. I might do some DH. I'll race a 12/24 hour race. I'd still like to try a 63/100 mile point to point race. I'll race road and CX. And bring on the local unsanctioned "illegal" races like the cruiser downhills. It's all about having fun, not what the people who think I'm weird at work want to see on their TV.

BTW, if anyone is looking for a new idea for an event, check out the WILD 100 on ertc.com. It's a metric century mtb race done as a team, together where you have to navigate your own course between 6 or 7 checkpoints. (There is NO set course) It happened this past weekend in West Virginia. Maybe we just need more organizations hosting their own events. Forget about Norba and UCI, come up with an idea and make it happen. And have fun. :)

[Ian F]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
I'm not talking about racing 2 miles for 60 to 90 miles. Its two miles of very technical riding and thats the entire race. Winners of the heat move up to the next bracket and race again. It would be fun for racers - escpecially those that can't devote the time to train a lot for longer events. It would be great for spectators.

That still sounds like a lot of training is needed to win in a format like that. If you think I'm wrong, go race BMX a few times. Short sprints lasting less than a minute over a technical course. After a few all-out runs you are ready to die.

I can tell you from racing DH, that fitness is incredibly important there as well. I raced much better last year than this year. Why? Because I trained much better last year so I was in better shape.

The problem with spectators and XC in the USA is the sport of cycling itself which is something only other cyclists really understand. The the US, mountain biking is a participant sport, not a spectator sport, and I don't see how that will ever change.

Most spectators at DH races stick around the tech sections. Why? To see the crashes! duh... In mtn-x they want big jumps, but even there the jumps are lame compared to watching a BMX dirt jumping contest or Supercross.

Even Supercross racers are in awesome shape.

Complain about it as much as we want, no amount of increase in the technical aspects of the course with reduce the fitness needed for racing. If anything, making the tracks more technical will make the racing WORSE. How? Because whoever gets the holeshot into the first tech section will be gone, never to bee nseen again. This is why the courses moved to a less tech format in the mid 90's. To reduce the Tomac-factor. The coruses were long and technical. Tomac in his prime had fitness to burn and was also the best DH racer of the day.

Bike racing is boring to watch. Simple as that. Even the most heaviliy attended race in the USA - the First Union USPRO Championships in Philly - is sold on the fact that it turns a good portion of the city in a huge party. 99% of those on the course couldn't give a rat's behind who won. I'll be watching and a guy will be next to me on the thrid lap saying, "Lance is losing! Why isn't he in the lead NOW???" They just don't understand.... :rolleyes:

I'm not saying I don't wish bike racing in the US was more popular, but I'm afraid it's a dead horse...

Now if they sold a ton of cheap beer around the course, that might increase spectator numbers. :thumb:

[TrueScotsman]

Right, time for my tuppence worth;

I used to do XC but now I do DH. A few of my friends are the same. We all seemed to stop XC when it got less technical.

The difference between road and dirt biking is the bike-handling skills involved. This difference should be accentuated.

This is my idea for a revised XC;

2-3 mile laps made up of about 3 or 4 loops so that spectators get to see riders for more than only a few seconds a lap. Number of laps is dependant on class.

Technical Uphills- fireroad climbs are boring and just a fitness test, I propose variable terrain climbs that reqire skill to ascend (e.g. loose surfaces, steep/zig-zag combinations - riders decide whether it is quicker to go straight up the steep bit of take the longer but shallower track around it.)

Muliple-line options- like DH,where adventurous or more skilled riders can opt to take a shorter but riskier line.

25+ Riders- The more riders the better- it encourages closer racing and more line options to be used. Maybe use a moto system where 4 quarterfinals feed the big final comprising the best riders- e.g. first 5 from each moto go through, pus the fastest 5-10 others (this encourages racing for position AND time)

What do y'all think?

[RideMonkey]

Some clarifications:

-I am NOT suggesting we replace XC
-I AM suggesting short track be eliminated.
-There are already lots of great ultra enduro type events in the US - we don't need more of those.
-The short course format would make it DOABLE for different fitness levels. Yes you would have to be fit to win but this would be more accessible to the weekend warriors, full time workers, family people etc.
-This is as much about creating a fun new event for the amateur athlete as it is about creating a better professional sport.
-This is the kind of course that with enough ramps obstacles etc could be built on totally flat ground. Mountain biking becomes more accessible in all 50 states.

[Heidi]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
Some clarifications:


-This is as much about creating a fun new event for the amateur athlete as it is about creating a better professional sport.


I guarantee a lot of Pro's wouldn't enter it then. They wouldn't want to risk getting for their XC race. I think this would be better as just an amateur race.

I agree, don't take away XC, I like the longer races and for the most part, the Norba Nat courses are pretty fun.

[kokothemonkey]

In Squamish, that course is awesome and it traverses extremely technical terrain, I would do that race any day if that were in my area. It includes some serious climbing but if you are a true roadie and lacking technical skills I think you would perish in that event. Sounds like a great idea to me! I used to be really into XC racing and now I can't even bear to watch it, it is very boring to watch I must say.:o:

[spincrazy]

Coincidence?

Again, while opening yet another box of bike parts from the brown santa today at work, I was asked by a co-worker if I raced. I gave my pat answer of no, because I don't do dowhill (yet, but I'm thinking I'm too old now) and XC races are boring. I like all of the suggestions mentioned above for the most part, but in the end, I think if I were to race, it'd be Mtn Cross. I like the bmx-style format and it's anything but boring. My .03.

[MtnBikerChk]

If xc were more skill oriented and less endurance - I'd have a chance. Those skinny little women who can go uphills like maniacs (and kick my arse) can't ride the New England rock gardens for schiat!

[RhinofromWA]

What about a ISDE (International Six Day Enduro) or the like the qualifiers they have for motorcyle racing nowadays.

You start in small groups and race to a a point on the course. If you are to early, no penatly. To late from you perscribed average MPH to get to that point, you are penalized (time). Special tests where the fastest on a certain section gets less penalties than the slower riders (have it techinical) so as the guys with the super light Xc bikes might have a hard time and give the guys who had to race to check point on a heavier FS rig and still make it might make up an advantage.

Multiple Special tests and points tallies will define the winner. and it can be done fairly close to a venue with some fancy routing of trails. You get time on the trial in and tire them out then you make them do a mad out sprint thru the tests.

Generally the fastest through the tests wins because the averages between points is makable unless you have a trail side repair. Even then you can make up time if you are ahead of the average MPH when you have the technical.

I dun't know if that made any sense but I am sure you could research it more and give a better example. :( :o: :)

[indieboy]

come out east and do some races out there. most of the races here aren't fire road bull****. the ONLY reason why national courses typically have a lot of fire roads in them and are generally lame is b/c they have to cater to a HUGGGGGGGGGGE amount of ppl racing. which means a LOT of traffic and build up if you were to only have single track sections. i personally like short track racing, i don't think it is a glorified road race. look at who's winning the races typically. it's almost a mirror image of who's winning the technical and non technical xc races.

[Woggle Bear]

"--The short course format would make it DOABLE for different fitness levels. Yes you would have to be fit to win but this would be more accessible to the weekend warriors, full time workers, family people etc.
-This is as much about creating a fun new event for the amateur athlete as it is about creating a better professional sport.
-This is the kind of course that with enough ramps obstacles etc could be built on totally flat ground. Mountain biking becomes more accessible in all 50 states."

I agree 100%. Remember guys and gals not every state has mountains. We flat landers are left out in the cold when it comes to DH and BikerX. Currently we would have to drive 12 to 20 hours to do a real DH race.
Our XC races are done on a 10 mile course with varying terrain, lots of ups and downs, and some semi technical stuff(even the mighty Ned crashed the two times he raced here). It is a great trail, but it still stresses legs and lungs over skill. As it stands any runner or rodie with mega legs and lungs can show up to a race with little off road skill and win a XC race. That sucks. Then they go away telling their buddies that MTB is lame. The format RM is talking about would put SKILL back into the equation. It could be done in every state, even in urban areas.
It could bring racing to more places! The more people that are exposed to our sport the more will give it a try! And that is going to be good for all of us. (i.e. The more people that demand land access to ride the more the politicians will listen.)

Just my .02 worth
WB

[Roasted]

Originally posted by kokothemonkey
In Squamish, that course is awesome and it traverses extremely technical terrain, I would do that race any day if that were in my area. It includes some serious climbing but if you are a true roadie and lacking technical skills I think you would perish in that event. Sounds like a great idea to me! I used to be really into XC racing and now I can't even bear to watch it, it is very boring to watch I must say.:o:

That is the idea I was giving. It is 76k of living hell :)...seriously it uses every aspect of a bikers skillset. Climbing, descents, technical, pack, single track. Definately one of the best races around.

[1speed]

I remember races back east where the course was a shorter singletrack course that had some very technical sections. some courses were as short as 3 miles. shorter tech laps with a field crossing usually where the start and finish was. these courses had some tough climbs and super tough dh's. those are fun courses and a racer that tried to walk or run all the tech stuff would not win the race. a course like that is also more accessible to spectators who can move to different areas during the race and see different sections. you could place the manmade stuff in the slower sections to make it even more interesting. I agree that courses need to get more technical again.

I think that calling a one mile course with man made obstacles XC is a little strange. If it is just a course catering more to FS bikes without any real climbing it will only draw a certain type of rider. don't get me wrong, this proposed race format sounds fun to race and watch but it also seems like something you would see at the extreme games... an upside of this I will say is that not every state has east coast (or more tech. style) trails that are more challenging and interesting to ride so this format I suppose would be a great option for those areas lacking in courses.

either way, change is inevitable and new formats may be the best way to breath some new life into mtn bike racing.

[Clark Kent]

I think the big hairy guy is right...XC has changed over the years...into a spectator sport, which it wasnt in its beginning. A XC race is a spectator sport kind of, in as much as some people like to watch it...talk about it but ride very little. What the xc world needs is to become less concerned with sponsors and such. It does not take a large collection of corporate sponsorships televised or national competitions or the like for a pastime to continue having equipment design advance. Just look at flat track dirt racing ( cars). If ya have a slack jawed yodel for a friend you might see this kinda thing every once in a while but the reality is that it is a core of people and companies that keep it going/advancing etc. Do you think that if the racing scene ( as week as it is now) disappeared companies would stop selling bikes to people with money? I think not...and true, racing programs are where new technologies are created/worked on IN THIS INSTANCE. There are a myriad of technologies/companies who are constantly involved in R&D that have no "racing outlet" for testing.... Does a bike that spends more time in a team van or on a plane than it does under a rider yield more info than a bike that is ridden constantly every day for months? I don't think so. Sure some say that the bikes aren't going to get worked as much under a non professional but those folks have stars in their eyes. There is no way that Marla or Greene or whomever is harder on bikes than the REAL RIDER who is out on the same bike day after day after day without a pro wrench and 60 days of traveling time every season! There are no electric shaving teams or Kitchen aid blending teams or microwave cooking teams, yet they still manage to constantly come up with product advancements. Racing is great ( or would be if it wasn't for the totally childish shows of competitiveness ) but lets NOT act like it is the life line for the sport! The main thing the xc racing scene needs is less rock star and less whining and screaming and crying cus of a flat tyre or someone cut some else off and cost john dork his third place finish in sport class!


there is my rant...................:monkey:


can ya tell I'm kida grass rooty?

[Hardtail]

Personally I think as for watching goes something along the lines of 4X or some kind of BMX style thing is pretty cool BUT it can not replace XC racing it's like comparing apples and oranges in my book. I was watching speed channel the other day and some kind of Enduro/XC motorcycle race was on, it was pretty cool and made me think about this very subject. I mean really how many average Joe types even know this exists? Not many I think but how many know about Super Cross? Most everybody I would say.
My point is in order to make mtn biking more popular overall I agree it would be cool to have some spectator friendly stuff but XC is what it needs to be, "cross country" not a bunch of laps that add up to the same amount of miles as a loop out in the woods. I think as with motorcycles both types of racing need to exist.

[Serial Midget]

I say leave XC to be what it is - a competition where speed, power and strategy are the keys. Altering a sport for mass spectator appeal seems like something FOX would do ala XFL… Circuit XC seems bizarre.

Are XC events held for the participants or the spectators? I personally find spectator driven sports a big yawn, I don’t like to watch – but I do enjoy participating in my chosen sports and athletic activities.

[Woggle Bear]

I really did not have spectators in mind when I was day dreaming about the new format we are discussing. I was thinking more about the racers and the courses. I do not wish to replace XC, just add a alternate event. I thought it would be a bit more exciting for the racer. One that could be held in more areas around the country, and could be enjoyed regardless of your specific MTB discipline. There would be things in the course that would challenge everyone regardless of their dicipline. There should be climbs and DH, if the venue allows, some jumps, technical sections (natural & manmade), sprint sections, and what ever else the course designer feels like throwing in. The jumps and tech areas would have lines around them for riders that could not clear them, but they would not be impossable to ride for the average joe. The starts could be done in mass like XC now or BMX 10 man motos. Which ever works best for the number of racers and course.

It's just a thought. I really do not think XC will be replaced, there are too many people that enjoy it. But there are others out here that would like to see something different come along.

WB

[El Jefe]

I say that more choices is better, but that classic XC doesn't need to disappear. So what if the ride isn't very technical? So what if it is more a test of fitness than bike handling skill? I ride road, XC and DH, and I can say for sure that each is very different from the other. Believe it or not, there are a lot of riders who don't like racing road but don't like serious technical riding. These are the ones racing today's XC and short track. What's wrong with that? Nothing.

[gravity]

just make it 10X more technical.... i watched the XC at the Commonwealth and Olympic games, and boy was it boring. at the C'wealth games, some parts WERE actually on paved road.... how lame. i can't stand stuff that is too easy.

[rstrange1]

I have been tellin people this for years.
XC is NOT Cyclocross.


SEE EPIC XC For details. 4"x4" is the new norm.

:love:

[nite rider]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
I posted this earlier in the racing forum but though it would make a good front page discussion

Over the years XC racing has become more and more a non-technical sport that caters to fitness almost exclusively while neglecting handling skills and bicycle technology. XC racing is a poor sport for spectators. Its hard to watch because the courses are so long. Rigid frames and 63-80 mm forks are still the norm because the courses are generally non-demanding from a technical standpoint. Bike companies are not getting much exposure for the latest and greatest in suspension technology and other technical advances on the newest bikes.

Short track racing was created as a more spectator friendly form of racing. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to professional racing. Short track is glorified road racing. Its not technical at all! I wouldn't be surprised to see people showing up on Cyclocross bikes to race short track!

XC racing is on the decline. The best pro racers are turning to road racing or even triathalon so that they have a chance to make some money. I feel that 2 things need to be done to save professional XC racing: make it an exciting spectator sport and make racing more valuable to bicycle industry sponsors by making it a showcase for new technology.

Here is an idea for a new venue that is spectator friendly, exciting, and will showcase technology:

First of all put the mountain back in the biking. Those short track races are glorified road courses. Not technical at all. XC racing needs to be a showcase for new technology like downhill is. Downhill has become a much more interesting sport because its spectator friendly, fun to watch, and is driven by the latest technology.





whoa! slow down there buddy. Perhaps you should reconsider your judgments since you live out west where there really isn't a race that offers and real technical course as they do here in New England. Did you happen to catch the Norba Nationals this past weekend at Mt. Snow? The crowd was huge (over 25K) and they went to ALL events (XC, downhill, mountain cross, short track, dual s). They were line up all along the 5 mile XC course that would leave any western rider aching in pain. The riding here in the East is much different that out west which is why most of the top mountain bikers come from this area. The roots, mud, rocks.. it's all insane compared to the dry rock slabs and dusty trails of the west. People come here to watch the crashes and carnage all over the place. Yeah, short track may be more geared to road but it's fun as hell to watch. Sprinting for 20 minutes + 3 laps on a mountain bike is definitely not an easy task. Oh one more thing.. they also held the annual Naked Crit where about 1000 people show up in a parking lot when it gets dark and guys and girls strip down to race a few laps butt naked for money. Check ithere ("http://www.mtbmind.com) for pictures. XC mountain bike racing is pure endurance and all about technical riding.. at least here in New England.

[Woggle Bear]

XC is NOT Cyclocross

Funny you should mention that... I was in Keystone Col. last summer for the X-Terra race there(I was a group mechanic, not a racer) . The X-Terra course had a long climb but then the descent consisted of sections of their DH runs! But everyone dismounted CX style and walked those sections.

I prerode it with my group and thought it was a kickass course. But it did take 4 trys to clear some of the DH sections on my Fuel(whick broke as soon as I got home:rolleyes: ) but was doable. Lots of fun, even with the 9 mile climb.

I think adding technical stuff like that into XC would be great! But to do that for 30 miles...I would crash and die:D
Maybe a ten mile sprint race over a very technical course + a normal XC race the next day. Total points takes the over all win. Or you could compete in one or the other?
That way there is something there for everyone.

WB

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by nite rider


whoa! slow down there buddy. Perhaps you should reconsider your judgments since you live out west where there really isn't a race that offers and real technical course as they do here in New England. Did you happen to catch the Norba Nationals this past weekend at Mt. Snow? The crowd was huge (over 25K) and they went to ALL events (XC, downhill, mountain cross, short track, dual s). They were line up all along the 5 mile XC course that would leave any western rider aching in pain. The riding here in the East is much different that out west which is why most of the top mountain bikers come from this area. The roots, mud, rocks.. it's all insane compared to the dry rock slabs and dusty trails of the west. People come here to watch the crashes and carnage all over the place. Yeah, short track may be more geared to road but it's fun as hell to watch. Sprinting for 20 minutes + 3 laps on a mountain bike is definitely not an easy task. Oh one more thing.. they also held the annual Naked Crit where about 1000 people show up in a parking lot when it gets dark and guys and girls strip down to race a few laps butt naked for money. Check ithere ("http://www.mtbmind.com) for pictures. XC mountain bike racing is pure endurance and all about technical riding.. at least here in New England.

The points of this thread were obviously lost on you:
1. Do not replace XC
2. Create an event that is more accessible to people of different regions
3. Create a fresh event that will appeal to those that are tired or uninterested in the current format.
4. Create an event that has more potential as a viable professional sport.

You may like to watch short track but most people think its boring.

[MikeD]

Originally posted by nite rider


The riding here in the East is much different that out west which is why most of the top mountain bikers come from this area. The roots, mud, rocks.. it's all insane compared to the dry rock slabs and dusty trails of the west.

Ahem.

No. The West has plenty of technical riding, and I'm sick of hearing East Coasters bash it. (I'm a transplanted East Coaster myself.) It's just that the XC RACE COURSES tend not to take advantage of it; it's a cultural trend, not a topological one, IMHO.

Dry and dusty or sandy, yes...extremely rocky and technical in places-not just flat 'slabs' to ride on. Buffed and smooth in places, just like the East. (Say...Tsali.) Trails get rutted up beyond belief out here, too.

Head north and you're in Vancouver.

Hell, up in Big Bear there's a fairly technical XC course at Rim Nordic that I love. If all races were like that one, I don't think we'd even be HAVING this discussion.

I do think you're right about one thing...most East Coast xc racers aren't complaining about their courses. But if you don't think it can be technical out here, meet me in Vegas and we'll ride Bootleg Canyon together, or I'll take you to Anderson Truck Trail or Aliso here in CA.

-Mike

[nite rider]

Originally posted by MikeD


Ahem.

No. The West has plenty of technical riding, and I'm sick of hearing East Coasters bash it. (I'm a transplanted East Coaster myself.) It's just that the XC RACE COURSES tend not to take advantage of it; it's a cultural trend, not a topological one, IMHO.

Dry and dusty or sandy, yes...extremely rocky and technical in places-not just flat 'slabs' to ride on. Buffed and smooth in places, just like the East. (Say...Tsali.) Trails get rutted up beyond belief out here, too.

Head north and you're in Vancouver.

Hell, up in Big Bear there's a fairly technical XC course at Rim Nordic that I love. If all races were like that one, I don't think we'd even be HAVING this discussion.

I do think you're right about one thing...most East Coast xc racers aren't complaining about their courses. But if you don't think it can be technical out here, meet me in Vegas and we'll ride Bootleg Canyon together, or I'll take you to Anderson Truck Trail or Aliso here in CA.

-Mike

Yeah I hear yeah. I'm not saying there is no technical stuff at all aout there but everyone that I know that rides there never sees roots or mud like out here (unless you head to BC). I just did a 24 hour race with a guy from New Mexico and he was complaining on how humid it was and how slick the roots were. It was a dry day compared to what we usually ride. I guess I'm saying that most of the big races out west aren't as technical as they are in the east. I've heard a lot of people that say they think New England has the best riding XC riding in the US.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by nite rider


Yeah I hear yeah. I'm not saying there is no technical stuff at all aout there but everyone that I know that rides there never sees roots or mud like out here (unless you head to BC). I just did a 24 hour race with a guy from New Mexico and he was complaining on how humid it was and how slick the roots were. It was a dry day compared to what we usually ride. I guess I'm saying that most of the big races out west aren't as technical as they are in the east. I've heard a lot of people that say they think New England has the best riding XC riding in the US.

DUDE - you do not speak from experience in the PNW. You cannot ride XC anywhere without root wads, mud, loose rocks and I ain't never seen a rock slab round here! This aint the mohab baby - we're rideing in the woods for our XC. Oh... there ain't no parking lots either and horses don't care where they ****!

[Roasted]

Whoa. I was worried there for a minute. Refering to out west as non technical. I thought someone smoked too much. Then I saw the reference to BC. My heart settled back down.

The question is simple. Revive XC racing.

1 - make is more exciting. Distance is boring and really distances the crowd. This only applys if it is distance only. With technical it makes it difficult and interesting.

2 - for me pack racing sucks. I was watching a race on TV and everyone ended up walking the best technical section. Why cause one guy at the front couldn't navigate the chut and wham everyone ended up walking through a section that sure looked eay to me. Make smaller time trial packs of something to fix this definate problem

For me it is simple. But I am not a pure person at heart. I like thrill and speed. I am not an endurance based person,

[Serial Midget]

Fellow Monkey, all around cool dude, Phd and MBA candidate BAH has taken excellent images of your typical recreational XC, DH and DJ that make up the VERY ACTIVE mtb scene in the PNW.

You east coast yahoos only wish you had it this good!

The Man Has An Excellent Site (http://www.dpdigitalimages.com/bike.html)

[MikeD]

I'm sorry for inciting an east vs west riot...!:eek:

Let's all flash our signs and go away peacefully...this thread was going somewhere before I opened my big :monkey: mouth.

-MD

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by MikeD
I'm sorry for inciting an east vs west riot...!:eek:

Let's all flash our signs and go away peacefully...this thread was going somewhere before I opened my big :monkey: mouth.

-MD

I'll be good after a few beers. Here is what I call XC and what I ride the most. Peace.http://www.dpdigitalimages.com/imagepages/1t31.html

[Serial Midget]

http://www.dpdigitalimages.com/bigimages/1t31.jpg

[nite rider]

Originally posted by Serial Midget


DUDE - you do not speak from experience in the PNW. You cannot ride XC anywhere without root wads, mud, loose rocks and I ain't never seen a rock slab round here! This aint the mohab baby - we're rideing in the woods for our XC.


Hence my reference to BC.... which IS in the PNW.

[nite rider]

here is what we typically race on:

http://www.mtbmind.com/images/gallery/wrath/DSC00043.jpg

http://www.mtbmind.com/images/gallery/moody/8x6/DSCF0115-01.jpg

http://www.mtbmind.com/images/gallery/glen/8x6/DSC00068-01.jpg

[RhinofromWA]

Washington, Mt St Helens Cool Huh?

courtesy of MTBZone.com
http://www.mtbzone.com/trails/images/helens7.jpg

[Rotifer]

here is what we typically race on:

That's technical? Am I missing something? I think one thing people don't realize about the west is the phenomenal variety of terrain and conditions (thanks to our mountains and the Gulf of Alaska). As for the racing, I agree that most of the courses are boring (WHIM), Schweitzer is usually fun.

[SuspectDevice]

So,
I'm new to this whole ridemonkey scene, but i literally grew up at mountainbike races and on the mountainbike circuit, so i feel like i have some perspective.
Basically all of the proposals to create a new types of hybrid XC racing with jumps and forced "technical" challenges are kind of lame. Sorry but it's how i feel. back in the good old days courses were no harder than they were now, it's just technology has improved so much that it is no longer challenging to ride a "normal trail" with a "normal" bike.

As for short track, it is a real bike race, and it is really really really hard. Period. I don't know about it being a National Championship event, but the phyiological and tactical attributes required for succes in that event make it legit in my book.

Personally i stopped riding all my fancy scandium disc braked FS bikes and went back to a rigid Team Fat. I still race, and it's still fun. I get callouses i haven't had since '94 and i have a great excuse for not slaying fields like i once did.
The main thing that has driven me (and i suspect many other lifers) away from xc racing and more toward road racing, Real Life, or Honda tuning these last few years is the absolutely contrived nature of the the "ski area" races and the the obligatory entryfees, grim faces and general wannabee-ism that go along with them.

I say leave the ski areas to the skiers, the jumps and technology to the fat recreational riders and DHers, and bring xc back to small farms, town parks and epic state forest loops where it once belonged.


RECLAIM YOUR SPORT SAY NO TO SKI AREAS!

[SuspectDevice]

Originally posted by Gutty
Excuse me if this has been covered already,
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\.
This kind of event would/could also see many different bike types in one race. You could have some guys/girls with the full on XC climber setup of HT with long stem who would excel at the uphill part but may have to do all the roll-arounds for the jumps. Then you might have some people useing a more DS setup so as to clear all the jumps on the MX course but maybe struggle a bit on the up hill. Take the bike that is going to help the most with what skills you have.

I hope all that made sense.
Thats my dribble on it.

You probally don't know it but you just described the Roostmaster series. In the heydays of MTB racing Rick Sutton (the galeforce moron) decided to do this. He got BudLite as a sponsor and the idea eventually petered out after 4 years or so.
because the event was longer than 5 minutes everone eventually chose XC bikes and the perenial mid nineties powerhouses Tomac and Tinker dominated. and yes they did clear the doubles.

[Roasted]

Originally posted by Capt. Burntout
So,
I'm new to this whole ridemonkey scene, but i literally grew up at mountainbike races and on the mountainbike circuit, so i feel like i have some perspective.
Basically all of the proposals to create a new types of hybrid XC racing with jumps and forced "technical" challenges are kind of lame. Sorry but it's how i feel. back in the good old days courses were no harder than they were now, it's just technology has improved so much that it is no longer challenging to ride a "normal trail" with a "normal" bike.

As for short track, it is a real bike race, and it is really really really hard. Period. I don't know about it being a National Championship event, but the phyiological and tactical attributes required for succes in that event make it legit in my book.

Personally i stopped riding all my fancy scandium disc braked FS bikes and went back to a rigid Team Fat. I still race, and it's still fun. I get callouses i haven't had since '94 and i have a great excuse for not slaying fields like i once did.
The main thing that has driven me (and i suspect many other lifers) away from xc racing and more toward road racing, Real Life, or Honda tuning these last few years is the absolutely contrived nature of the the "ski area" races and the the obligatory entryfees, grim faces and general wannabee-ism that go along with them.

I say leave the ski areas to the skiers, the jumps and technology to the fat recreational riders and DHers, and bring xc back to small farms, town parks and epic state forest loops where it once belonged.


RECLAIM YOUR SPORT SAY NO TO SKI AREAS!

I am sorry but to say a sport shouldn't progress is deadly. No sport has lacked progression. Ski areas are perfect for biking just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so. Regular mountain biking is about as exciting to watch as road racing. Most people (average non bikers and even some bikers) will not watch mountain biking. In order for this sport to be considered legit and a watched sport something does have to be done to make it more exciting.

However fine leave the old xc class. But make a freeride section. Not like red bull but technically advanced xc. Make them with varrying terrains and different lines. Also ensure areas for people to watch 'good' sections.

Fat recreational bikers and dhers eh? Well I won't even justify that statement with a comment. Progression is a part of life, and of sport. Take a look at skiers and snowboarders (a progression in and of itself)

You can have your off-road roads that are 100k loops.

Cheers.

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Capt. Burntout
I say leave the ski areas to the skiers, the jumps and technology to the fat recreational riders and DHers, and bring xc back to small farms, town parks and epic state forest loops where it once belonged.

RECLAIM YOUR SPORT SAY NO TO SKI AREAS!

:eek: I keep my mouth shut on this one :D

What do you think of the 96/97 Giant ATX 990 Team frames? I just picked up an NOS unbuilt frame cheap so I could have a 4-Bar. I posted an image in the tech-talk forum.

[nite rider]

Originally posted by maelstrom


I am sorry but to say a sport shouldn't progress is deadly. No sport has lacked progression. Ski areas are perfect for biking just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so. Regular mountain biking is about as exciting to watch as road racing. Most people (average non bikers and even some bikers) will not watch mountain biking. In order for this sport to be considered legit and a watched sport something does have to be done to make it more exciting.

However fine leave the old xc class. But make a freeride section. Not like red bull but technically advanced xc. Make them with varrying terrains and different lines. Also ensure areas for people to watch 'good' sections.

Fat recreational bikers and dhers eh? Well I won't even justify that statement with a comment. Progression is a part of life, and of sport. Take a look at skiers and snowboarders (a progression in and of itself)

You can have your off-road roads that are 100k loops.

Cheers.

you're talking like there s no such thing as "real" cross country racing anymore. You're being very sterotypical which is probably due to the fact you experience riding in the PNW. XC mountain biking is NOT about freeriding. It's about training your ass off like all of the roadies do to build your stamina and endurance as well as dominate the technical.

Here in New England, XC racing is very popular. People love to watch it so I don't know how you can say they don't. You should
head to the World 24 hour solo championships in BC at the end of the month. Racing here is technical and hosted all over ski areas (Nationals were at Mt. Snow). If you are telling me that people do not want to watch XC racing after I saw roughly 20K spectators last weekend lined through the woods and cheering for everyone that came through.... then this discussion is over.

[nite rider]

Originally posted by maelstrom

However fine leave the old xc class. But make a freeride section. Not like red bull but technically advanced xc. Make them with varrying terrains and different lines. Also ensure areas for people to watch 'good' sections.


Cheers.

Is mountain cross enough of a freeride event for you? Dude there is DH, XC, mountain cross, trials, dual slalom, ant short track!! What else could you possibly want? Oh I got it.. how about you invent a race where 2 guys/girls start on the top of the mountain, give them modified DH bikes with 5" tires, 25" of suspension with no brakes and no pads. We can call it extreme DH. Would that excite you?

Oh look... NORBA invented Mountain Cross 2 years ago!
http://www.mtbmind.com/images/gallery/mtsnow/8x6/DSC00106-01.jpg

[SuspectDevice]

Originally posted by maelstrom


I am sorry but to say a sport shouldn't progress is deadly. No sport has lacked progression. Ski areas are perfect for biking just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so. Regular mountain biking is about as exciting to watch as road racing. Most people (average non bikers and even some bikers) will not watch mountain biking. In order for this sport to be considered legit and a watched sport something does have to be done to make it more exciting.
>>>>>>>>>> This sport is Legit, Commonwealth games Olympics, and even once there was Big Money. Belive it or not people actually DO watch XC racing, but their numbers pale in comparison to the amount of people who show up on the sides of a road to watch people (gasp) climb mountains in the grand tours.
Why does racing have to be exciting to watch anyway?
I always thought that racing was supposed to be for racers?
I was talking to a friend of mine who happens to be a retired old XC pro, and we both agreed Racers make the race, not the course. you could hold worlds on a golf course and the same people would still win.
If you live at a world famous ski mountain i belive you probally lack a good bit of objectivity about the state of mtb riding and racing world wide. most people still ride on trails like xc courses, with a hardtail or FSR type bike. And most places in the world XC courses are still very difficult. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Cheers.

[Roasted]

I actually didn't mean to make my statement sound that extreme I just believe there is room for everyone. I don't do any extreme freeriding. But I did take offence to a couple of statements by capt burnout. Obviously xc is and will always be around but to try and keep mountain biking that way is wrong. I did not actually mean for my statement to come across as a blanket statement against xc racing. I am sorry about that but to say that xc is the only way.

"dh or fat recreational riders". That is the statement that more concerned me. There is xc in the mountain on short and long track with some freeriding in there for technique. Not everyone is fat in fact most arent' generally speaking most of the freeriders I know are not only strong aerobically but strong anaerobically as well.

And nite rider I don't think you actually read my statement. I am not a dhiller. Not my thing. I don't think you have to be brought to the top of the mountain and let gravity do its work. I enjoy pedaling to the top and then screaming down the mountain. I just think being more technical might make things more difficult anaerobically. But this is my preference as I prefer more power based sports than I do pure aerobic. (btw I find watching mountain cross boring. There are a lot of events happening here and it is pretty dull watching 4 guys screaming down the mountain and doing tricks over table tops)


Why does racing have to be exciting to watch anyway?


Personal opinion I suppose. I enjoy excitement. I enjoy things being difficult and challenging on many levels.

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by nite rider


Is mountain cross enough of a freeride event for you? Dude there is DH, XC, mountain cross, trials, dual slalom, ant short track!! What else could you possibly want? Oh I got it.. how about you invent a race where 2 guys/girls start on the top of the mountain, give them modified DH bikes with 5" tires, 25" of suspension with no brakes and no pads. We can call it extreme DH. Would that excite you?


Once again you have ignored every point of the thread. MTNX is a downhill event.

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by Capt. Burntout
So,
I'm new to this whole ridemonkey scene, but i literally grew up at mountainbike races and on the mountainbike circuit, so i feel like i have some perspective.
Basically all of the proposals to create a new types of hybrid XC racing with jumps and forced "technical" challenges are kind of lame. Sorry but it's how i feel. back in the good old days courses were no harder than they were now, it's just technology has improved so much that it is no longer challenging to ride a "normal trail" with a "normal" bike.

As for short track, it is a real bike race, and it is really really really hard. Period. I don't know about it being a National Championship event, but the phyiological and tactical attributes required for succes in that event make it legit in my book.

Personally i stopped riding all my fancy scandium disc braked FS bikes and went back to a rigid Team Fat. I still race, and it's still fun. I get callouses i haven't had since '94 and i have a great excuse for not slaying fields like i once did.
The main thing that has driven me (and i suspect many other lifers) away from xc racing and more toward road racing, Real Life, or Honda tuning these last few years is the absolutely contrived nature of the the "ski area" races and the the obligatory entryfees, grim faces and general wannabee-ism that go along with them.

I say leave the ski areas to the skiers, the jumps and technology to the fat recreational riders and DHers, and bring xc back to small farms, town parks and epic state forest loops where it once belonged.


RECLAIM YOUR SPORT SAY NO TO SKI AREAS!


There are some valid points here but I really wish you guys would read through the thread so that we didn't have to cover the same points over and over.

1. It was plainly stated that obstacles were not "forced", that they were optional.
2. What part of "This is not to replace XC" do you not understand? If I had a dollar for every time I said this in this thread I'd have like 5 bucks.
3. You may think short track is exciting but you are the minority. I started racing before suspension, before anything was high tech and the courses were long and tough and the people racing those events were were a bunch of tough mofos. Short track is the worst progression of competetive cycling that I have seen in my 15 years of racing.
4. Before you go calling DHers fat, maybe you should remember guys like Tomac. He did it all. And I still run into these guys at races - guys that race pro XC AND pro DH. These guys are worthy of much respect!!!
5. Whether you like it or not technology is changing. And it is better. Current formats (especially short track) do very little to showcase all the great new technology out there. My last bike was a team Fat and I loved it. I crashed it out last fall and got a dually and I'm not going back!

XC racing just isnt fun anymore to a lot of people. The only real interesting new format that has emerged is 24hr. The rest just doesnt hold the interest of racing veterens like me or the newer generation of riders. So lets look at some options.

[MikeD]

Originally posted by nite rider


Is mountain cross enough of a freeride event for you?

back in the good old days courses were no harder than they were now, it's just technology has improved so much that it is no longer challenging to ride a "normal trail" with a "normal" bike.



MtnX is not a freeride event at all. It's more of a BMX/DH hybrid. It involves big jumps, but the course is groomed and bermed. There aren't any rock/root sections or obstacles of any kind, which are what define technical riding.

I think one of the big distinctions between DH and freeride is that freeride tends to take place on more natural-style trails (albeit with those stunts in the PNW and other places) while DH racing takes place on a purpose-built groomed course.

The idea of it being technology being the impetus for change just isn't true. Technical XC-style riding isn't F-S exclusive. That said, why should anyone be against improvements in technology?

It's a given today that motorcycles, except for a certain type geared towards a certain individual with a certain purpose (who also doesn't ride his moto for long distances), are full-suspension...yet this once wasn't the case. Is anyone worse-off for this? I LOVE hardtail bicycles...they can be fun and teach a lot about better technique. However, they offer little advantage when it comes to absolute performance, all other things being equal.

Whatever the reasons, a lot of people are dissatisfied with race courses. If riders today are looking for more challenge, whether it be technical or fitness-oriented (not many people complaining the courses are too easy on the legs, though), I think we should try to accomodate them with a race event that satisfies their wants. Technical riding, on any sort of bike, is the name of the game these days.

-MD


-MD

[mom]

Originally posted by RideMonkey

XC racing just isnt fun anymore to a lot of people. The only real interesting new format that has emerged is 24hr. The rest just doesnt hold the interest of racing veterens like me or the newer generation of riders. So lets look at some options.

First I'd like to thank you for not allowing me to post on my other screen name. That your way of controlling the argument?

Secondly, it sounds like you are the one that is not having fun with XC racing anymore. XC racing is the same as it always was. The only things that change are the people doing it. Seems to me like you are bored with it and hopped on your freeride banwaggon. XC racing is there and as intense as you or anyone wants to make it. Like someone said before, the racers make the race, not the people watching.

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by mom


First I'd like to thank you for not allowing me to post on my other screen name. That your way of controlling the argument?


What in the world are you talking about? You are the only one arguing (I'm guessing you are that Nite Rider character?).

Theres a lot of people in this thread that are ready for a change. Like I have said over 1 million times in this thread we are not talking about replacing XC racing just creating an option that will appeal to those not happy with the current options. Why does that piss you off so much?

[mom]

Originally posted by RideMonkey

Why does that piss you off so much?


Because it's those little comments that make the "newer" generation of riders shy away from XC racing when I'm trying to promote it. You think starting a thread which talks about the idea of "progressing" XC into something else is going to make the next generation of riders to race old school XC? It's like when snowboarding started. Snowboarding is so popular now because the newer generation is attracted to it which is due to the fact of all the talk and hype. The newer generation will not go into skiing right off unless he/she is born into it from a generation of skiers. Kids are attracted to what is cool and in style at the moment and if XC racing is converted into some yuppy alternative, then myself or any other XC racer will be viewed by the next generation as old news.. that is until 50 years passes and it all starts over again.

If you want to start a new trend in XC racing just for the sake of "popularity" then all the power to you but I hate to tell you but XC is alive, strong and growing large here in the North East.

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by mom



Because it's those little comments that make the "newer" generation of riders shy away from XC racing when I'm trying to promote it. You think starting a thread which talks about the idea of "progressing" XC into something else is going to make the next generation of riders to race old school XC? It's like when snowboarding started. Snowboarding is so popular now because the newer generation is attracted to it which is due to the fact of all the talk and hype. The newer generation will not go into skiing right off unless he/she is born into it from a generation of skiers. Kids are attracted to what is cool and in style at the moment and if XC racing is converted into some yuppy alternative, then myself or any other XC racer will be viewed by the next generation as old news.. that is until 50 years passes and it all starts over again.

If you want to start a new trend in XC racing just for the sake of "popularity" then all the power to you but I hate to tell you but XC is alive, strong and growing large here in the North East.

Do you know that you are a very unpleasant person? Do you know that nobody touched your original account so your paranoia is unfounded? Do you know that there are other parts of the US besides the Northeast?

Have you read the entire thread? Have you seen that there are people that live in flat states that would love to see this kind of format locally? Do you understand that this format would benefit certain people and certain regions? Do you have any perspective outside of your own?

And most importantly, which part of I AM NOT SUGGESTING REPLACING XC RACING do you not understand?

Do you know that I still race XC? Do you know that I have raced XC much much longer than you so I know a thing or two about it? Do you know that if this new format were available I would still race XC because I like variety?

Do you know?

[Roasted]

Thats pretty funny I was actually going to bring up the whole snowboarding evolution. But I figured I would leave it to you. Snowboarding is popular because of several reason. The least of which it is fun and easier to get to a ridable level. But that is not what this discussion is about.

I am not sure how old you are but in the future (younger than me) they will be the riders. Of the 50 some kinds (18 to 25) that I sometimes I ride with most don't like 'pure' xc. Of those most don't like extreme freeriding. They like it somewhere in between. Its these kids that will be riding in the future.

One other thing about the east. Most companies that are born and bread in the eat are dead or dying. Bike companies are becoming a thing of the past. Guess what the companies focussing on the technology and 'advancing' mountain biking to new levels are thriving. Yes right now it is a west coast thing (not really but thats where its popularity stems) but if I went back home to my good old trails and threw in some technical manmade stuff and moved the trail onto some of the hills that were avoided and dragged some of my old buds up there they would love it. It is fun to push your body and skills into the next level.

You kind of remind me of my grandad when he talks about how computer are not an advancement but really the downfall. Take it as you will but no matter how old I get I hope I can always embrace and except change.

[RideMonkey]

Maelstrom I love your footer! Thats great!

[Serial Midget]

Ummm. I wonder if I got my wires crossed? To me XC is going up as well as down and it can be technical as well as twisty. It takes a long hard effort, lot's of strength and strategy to compete (stuff I don't have) effectively. I've never had the urge to actually watch XC racing.

DH is very fun to watch but not from an athletic standpoint; I like to watch DH solely for the stunts and skills the kids represent - stuff I would never do myself. I don't confuse technical skill events with athletic endurance events. I simply like the spectacle and... some of those fat boys can MOVE! I'm after sweet jumps, great crashes and lotsa blood.

I can see taking the best of both worlds and making a new sport but the XC crowd would not be happy because the DH'rs have to stop for a bowl every now and again.:D

[mom]

Originally posted by RideMonkey


Do you know that you are a very unpleasant person? Do you know that nobody touched your original account so your paranoia is unfounded? Do you know that there are other parts of the US besides the Northeast?

Have you read the entire thread? Have you seen that there are people that live in flat states that would love to see this kind of format locally? Do you understand that this format would benefit certain people and certain regions? Do you have any perspective outside of your own?

And most importantly, which part of I AM NOT SUGGESTING REPLACING XC RACING do you not understand?

Do you know that I still race XC? Do you know that I have raced XC much much longer than you so I know a thing or two about it? Do you know that if this new format were available I would still race XC because I like variety?

Do you know?

No, no, yes.

Yes, not with my own eyes, perhaps, yes, hmmm ??

Yes I do, do you know what for a fact?, sure why not?

[mom]

Originally posted by maelstrom


Exactly which is brought on my exposure of modifications to the original sport.

[B]One other thing about the east. Most companies that are born and bread in the eat are dead or dying. Bike companies are becoming a thing of the past. Guess what the companies focussing on the technology and 'advancing' mountain biking to new levels are thriving. Yes right now it is a west coast thing (not really but thats where its popularity stems).

Ehem.. Cannondale is going strong in the East. Their craftsmanship and support is unmatched in the industry. How about Seven Cycles or Independant Fabrications? Can we get someone who lives in the East to respond?

You kind of remind me of my grandad when he talks about how computer are not an advancement but really the downfall. Take it as you will but no matter how old I get I hope I can always embrace and except change.

You can always embrace and accept change, but who said you had to and like it? Somethings are better off left untouched.

But anyway, this thread is far gone past it's limit of conversation. Sure I can understand the thought of introducing variations to the sport to people in the midwest or elsewhere that are looking for a 'bite' if you will, but why can't people in those regions just work with that they have? I don't care if the XC race is held across the corn fields of kansas, the competition will still be the same if the competitors bring the desire and heart.

I've said what I needed to say. Ciao

[Roasted]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
Maelstrom I love your footer! Thats great!

Thanx. :D...I only started west coast riding about 3 months ago. Otherwise I was a roadie on a mtbike. I didn't realize how physically challenging mountain biking was until I tried riding west coast. (I realize east coast has some great areas but they are sooo hard to find sometimes)

I think this who debate comes down to old school vs new school. It happens everywhere all the time. Music, sports,polictics etc...Sine my belief is with the new school adrenaline pumping action I tend to believe that the money and the new up and comers will and would prefer something more rounded (the explosion of freeriding, xgames and snowboarding are examples) extreme sports. Not crazy (red bull is just retarded for how extreme they go. Kudos to them but 40+ ft jeez) but extreme. Some prefer old school. Some prefer new. The money will be in the new school as well as the future. Its only a matter of figuring out where that new school will be.

[MikeD]

Excuse me, 'mom'...but why should we be trying to promote traditional XC over something new if people want to do something different?

Why must we halt evolution and keep the status quo for YOUR sake? Why must everyone else do what you want them to? Why must a younger generation be the same as you are?

Discuss.

-MD

[SuspectDevice]

Originally posted by RideMonkey

4. Before you go calling DHers fat, maybe you should remember guys like Tomac. He did it all. And I still run into these guys at races - guys that race pro XC AND pro DH. These guys are worthy of much respect!!!
5. Whether you like it or not technology is changing. And it is better. Current formats (especially short track) do very little to showcase all the great new technology out there. My last bike was a team Fat and I loved it. I crashed it out last fall and got a dually and I'm not going back!

.
So it was totally an unintentional flame by me to call dhers and rec riders fat... kinda my nature.

I did read all the previous posts before i posted, but really i see a solution looking for a problem and not a "real" problem.

I've probally been riding and racing as long as you, Mr Monkey, and i enjoy the "progession" in technology too, my favorite bike is my Metalhead which couldn't even be concieved of when i started riding in the eighties. I've got an 18lb roadbike and use a $1500 SRM bike computer setup to control my training efforts.
I have invested 6 years of my life so far in getting an advanced degree in sport science, where i've used portable exhaled gas analyzers on XC and DH riders in competition
I worked for and raced for a company for 4 years that was made up of dhers and bmxers, and we had fun digging and going out to plattekill, but lo and behold even the most tattoed and pierced of us still went for XC rides on anemic xc bikes. And we did it more often than anything else.

Maybe it's just the region i live in but XC still thrives (actually where are you located?), we have some alternative style events here in the NE like the Punk Bike and Second Start enduros, and although they are popular it seems obvious but the lack of imitators that the market has spoken and promoters find far more success in putting on traditonal events.
It's hard for me to argue against the logic of the market.

So yeah, at least in New England, the Southeast and The Mid Atlantic, XC doesn't need to be revived.

I've tried promoting and competing in all sorts of alternative events from scot trials, derby's, poker runs, and an eight rider heat type race on a mX track, and I even attended a race once that used ISDE rules (another Rick SUtton fiascoe). Everytime people complained about quirks and gaffs and , and I was left feeling like i would have rather promoted or attended a normal race. I guess i should just stop before i ramble all night.


I just re-read this, really sounds flamish but it isn't i promise.

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by Capt. Burntout
So yeah, at least in New England, the Southeast and The Mid Atlantic, XC doesn't need to be revived.

XC is nothing like it was during the early/mid 90's. Ah the good ole days......

[mom]

Originally posted by MikeD

Why must we halt evolution and keep the status quo for YOUR sake? Why must everyone else do what you want them to? Why must a younger generation be the same as you are?

Discuss.

-MD

Why must a younger generation do what you want them to? Sure you can have a thousand different variations to XC but XC means only one thing. It will never change.

If you want some XC the way it used to be, then you should have been camped next to us all week during the 24 hours of Snowshoe when team Hugh Jass showed everyone up by riding the hardest course in the world on fixed gear fully rigid bikes with cyclocross tires in the back all while wearing women's clothing and "Chip's" helments.

http://www.mtbmind.com/images/gallery/snowshoe/8x6/DSC00084-01.jpg

A shot of the easy part of the course (powerline trail):

http://www.mtbmind.com/images/gallery/snowshoe/8x6/DSC00127-01.jpg

[MikeD]

I bet this is the way the roadies felt when a bunch of freaks started riding wierd bikes (downhill) on dirt, too.

[SuspectDevice]

Originally posted by RideMonkey


XC is nothing like it was during the early/mid 90's. Ah the good ole days......

Exactly, it is more expensive:rolleyes:
besides that the courses are the same as they ever were, it is the technology that make things seem easier.
I stand firmly behind the idea that is a combination of the stabilisation of the market (Read: irrational exuberance) and the ineptness of promoters and NGB's that has caused the percipitous decline in racer-days over the last 5 years.

basically people (like that jackass Rick Sutton) have convinced the average rider that $40 entry fees are normal and that 2000 racers should be on the course at the same time. The biggest issue is a decline in the race experience, caused by promoters who still think it's 1995 and you can get away with that garbage.
-yo

[MikeD]

By the way, I ride a rigid singlespeed with drop bars in addition to my xc, DH, and freeride hardtail bikes. I just love riding in every direction and with any style. I don't see how Team Hugh Jass, hardcore or not, should make me feel any differently about racing. (Were they really riding fixed-gear offroad...or singlespeed? Fixed offroad is nigh-impossible.)

To say cross-country means only one thing is just silly. Its current format doesn't reflect some Platonic essence of 'cross-country-ness.' There are an infinite number of ways to run a cross-county race. Heck, maybe each race should have its own format to keep things interesting. Maybe Hans Rey and his 'Rads' could be called in to consult...

My point in this whole thread has been that, while 'trailriding' is the staple of all mountain biking everywhere, cross-country racing in my area and experience (out here in southern Cal) is incredibly lame.

I will NEVER race XC again unless there's a new format which supplements or replaces it. My 1st XC race in the beginner category cost me about $50 and consisted of riding on fireroad only with one short, short singletrack section. I was crushed by guys who looked like Ned Overend and has been racing beginner since '86 or so. Not a $50 experience in my book.

I race for fun, and fun the races are not. The Rim Nordic series out here is a fairly cool course, but I prefer to ride it when there's no one else on the trail...not when it's packed with people and I have to pay. So perhaps I'm not the authority on XC racing...then again, a lot of people feel the way I do. If there was some sort of new format, I'd certainly try it. If I liked it, I'd do it again.

I really want to know what others think of an enduro-style race! That'd really be a cool category!!!

Let's offer people some more choice and see where they put their time, money, and effort...not force them to ride fixed-gears offroad to give themselves a challenge. If they want to, great...but choice choice choice and let Darwin have his way.

MD

PS As to racing being expensive, I dunno...purple-ano bikes from the 80s cost an arm and a leg, even in today's dollars. You can get a damned nice bike now, custom steel or full-suspension, for under $1500. Technology is helping us out here. The race fees are another story!

[Eli-MN]

My ideal XC format would be an urban race course, 1-4 miles long, with wide road sprint sections, curb hops and stairs (up and down), and 1-3 foot drops every 100 yards.

This format would favor a Tracer on semi-slicks. Yes, I ride one. Still, I think the industry will be forced to embrace this type of generalist bike as promoting freeride/downhill-specific products alienates older, conservative consumers and removes younger, more aggressive consumers from the gene pool.

My format supports racers with endurance and basic offroad skills in a head-to-head contest that doesn't favor the holeshot winner.

I would suggest a light industrial park or university campus for the urban venue. People might come watch if the race was 30 minutes from home.

[Woggle Bear]

WTF?!!

I knew this would happen as soon as I saw RMs first post on this thread.
What started as a civil discussion of ideas for a new format has some how turned into a "if you don't like XC then you are a fat jerk!" bunch of crap.

I see why our sport has such a hard time with trail access issues. We are no where near unified. There is too much bickering going on in our ranks. How the hell can we take on groups trying to close our trails when we can't even have a civil discussion about our own sport!!! I left MTBR because of all the fighting and name calling. I thought it was mostly kids just trying to get a rise from people, but it seems that I was wrong. Most of the crap I see dished out now is from supposed adults. Old school, new school ; east, west who gives a f___!!!

I'm going out to ride and have fun regardless of what you want to call it.