Best climbing f/s bike??

[mr_dove]

After lots of riding on the rocky trails of Colorado, I'm considering the purchase of a good f/s bike. colorado has lots of climbing on almost every ride.

I'm currently riding a giant rainier. I've at the Giant NRS but the Ellsworth truth looks like a beautiful bike too.

I really just need to know which bikes climb really well with a minimum of bouncing or hopping on the trail.

thanks

[FlipSide]

My FSR-XC is a fantastic climber. Try to test-ride one if you can.

[WTGPhoben]

my superlight climbs real well, (size XL, with atom-race 100 up front, and float rc rear)

[ohio]

The truth will be more active than the NRS, so on really rough/rooty/rocky climbs it will perform better - assuming a smooth pedalling stroke.

Ditto for all the FSR 4 bars, and a few low-pivot single pivots. However, none of them will sprint or perform out of the saddle as well as the NRS...

Bikes that look really promising for the type of riding you're describing are just coming out: The santa cruz blur, iron horse hollowpoint DW, and specialized epic. Each has a completely different approach to the problem, and all have great potential.

[-BB-]

Originally posted by ohio
hollowpoint DW, .

Yeah...
I've heard good things about it too.
they seem to have gotten around the whole VPP patent thing.
;)

[KrusteeButt]

I really love my Specialized FSR-XC...I think it's absolutely fantastic for climbing. A buddy of mine is quite pleased with his SantaCrus Superlight.
I've heard the NRS is one of the best all-around XC-FS bikes, but I've never tried one.
I've also heard the same about the Jamis Dakar...isn't that what JOJO has now? Maybe drop her a line and ask what she thinks about it.
Of course Heidi will swear up and down by the Titus Racer-X.

Best thing really is to go to a few different dealers and ask to test ride...and obviously not just around their parking lot!

[ohio]

Originally posted by -BB-


Yeah...
I've heard good things about it too.
they seem to have gotten around the whole VPP patent thing.
;)

Well DW won't spill the beans on precisely what his linkage does, but they got around the VPP thing because it performs a completely different function.

The VPP is designed to have A LOT of interaction between the chain tension and suspension. This interaction is very well engineered for a specific result but there is a lot of interaction nonetheless.

As far as I can tell from looking at the Iron Horse, it is designed to be completely neutral through the full range of travel. More neutral and active than any single pivot or FSR-type 4-bar... but that's a guess since I don't have precise measurements (and I'm secretly holding out that Dave will just tell me). So they might both be great climbers but they will definitely feel VERY VERY different from each other.

[-BB-]

Originally posted by KrusteeButt

I've also heard the same about the Jamis Dakar...isn't that what JOJO has now?

I got one of those for the GF.
It is a GREAT climber.
I put on a 200lb spring for her (she's 100lbs wet) and I can bottom the shock by just looking at it.
When I get on and crank it up a little hill though, it doesn't "bob" at all... but it still reacts to the bumps.
True "HORST" linkage!!

[Heidi]

Duh, the Racer X, any other questions?

[KrusteeButt]

Originally posted by Heidi
Duh, the Racer X, any other questions?

Yeah...have you gotten that tattooed on your ass yet?!

[RideMonkey]

Bullit :D

[Heidi]

Originally posted by KrusteeButt


Yeah...have you gotten that tattooed on your ass yet?!

No, not yet.:p :D

[crazybastard]

trya a specialized s works or a cannondale scalpel

[MikeD]

Just remember that to some people, a 'good climber' is a hardtail, or an f/s that acts like one (through chain torque, lockout, whatever) on a climb.

Personally, I find this a bit misguided. F/s helps you climb quite a bit when it's active (unless you're on a paved or reeeeeeeally smooth dirt climb). The rear end on a hardtail skips around when the ground isn't smooth...f/s rear ends track the ground for you, and let you stay in the saddle. On a loose, technical climb, a hardtail forces you to toe the line between losing traction in the rear and failing to conquer an obstacle or tough line because you hard to take your butt off the seat to maneuver the bike. F/s lets you spin through this stuff a lot easier, and keeps the rear wheel better grounded.

So just think about which traits you want...lots of bikes available to fit whatever you want to do. Single-pivot bikes, however, are gonna act more like hardtails. (Superlight, etc.) The NRS does this also, I understand. If you want a more active rear with a simple suspension, the Titus locomoto is a good choice, though SOME people swear by their Racer-Xs....:rolleyes:

The FSR rear end is as popular as it is because it works...I can pedal my freeride bike comfortably uphill with it. VPP might be the best new alternative, but few people have actually ridden it...

-Mike

[indieboy]

don't chump out, go get a good hard tail.....

[roysboyz11]

try the gary fisher sugar 1+ or 2+

[Babar]

Canfield brother big fatty fat fat (crazy name... i forgot) a foot of travel...
climbs like a goat :)

[scofflaw23]

MikeD, i might have to disagree with your statement regarding single-pivot bikes climbing performing like hardtails. i think it's ridiculous to say that any f/s bike is anything like a hardtail, because none are...either they are designed to be very active (FSR, VPP, etc.) for good climbing with the wheel on the ground, minimizing pedal input, or to be more reactive (single-pivot, superlight, locomoto, etc) to absorb bumps well, work better for bigger hits. there's a reason why most single pivot bikes these days are at least 3.5" of suspension, multi-pivot bikes with less travel are just better for racing and singletrack riding, versus the single-pivot stuff for what i call "trailriding".
that said, i like the Cannondale Scalpel as an awesome climbing bike, otherwise, the 1.8" (or so) of travel doesn't do too much for shock absorption, but it pedals really nicely.
any FSR bike in the 75-90mm travel range is as close as you're going to get to a best-of-both-worlds bike.

The best thing to do is to go to a shop that has some trails close and give 'em a try.

ben.

[scofflaw23]

this is of course all without seeing or riding the new VPP bikes, the IronHorse DW design, and the Epic, finally some potentialy exciting things in full suspension.

[MikeD]

Scoff, I'm no engineer, so I'm going on what I've read, but the high-pivot designs cause chain torque to stiffen the rear end under power, for better or worse. I know the Heckler I rode skipped around over bumps on climbs, a lot more than my Big Hit, even when the suspension travel was shortened for climbing.
Even my single pivot Locomoto, with a lower, more active pivot, does get less plush under pedalling.

Again, just what I've read, but the riding I've done supports the reading...then again, maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy and I just saw and felt what I expected to feel.

Anyhow, it's not a lockout, but to my knowledge, a high pivot design isn't fully active.

[aragorn]

Go for the Tracer.

3.5" to 4" of rear wheel travel and for cross country stuff it feels like a Vette. The Suspension on the Tracer hooks up that well.

[JohnMc]

I really like the way my Ellsworth Truth climbs. No bobbing, yet very active and keeps that rear wheel planted. I can limb stuff on it that I can't get my HT Cannondale up - the Cannondale will just bounce a tire and loose traction.

The only other FS bike I've ridden that felt as good going up hills was a Sugar 1 (the SUgar 2 didn't feel nearly as good) but then again it didn't have a lot of travel and felt more like a hardtail with a suspension seatpost.

I'm thinking about getting a Santa Cruz Blur for my wife (sport class racer).

[mrbigisbudgood]

I've got a Superlight. I llike the way if climbs, but you HAVE to have a smooth pedalstroke for it to be a good climber.

I'd really like to try a Blur, that's probably gonna be the next generation of suspension bike IMHO.

Supposedly the Giant NRS Series kicks ass. My bro-in-law has one and loves loves loves it.

[Racerx7734]

with 3.75" of rear travel and a Phsylo set at 5" in the front and trust me it is the best climbing bike I have ridden and I tried a bunch.

The Giant also comes with by far the best component selection for the money.

My only complaint is the integrated headset.

Don't know if you care but the thing bombs downhill pretty dam good too. (obviousy not like me DH bike) but dam good never the less.

Hope this helps.:D

[crashing_sux]

I love the way my Specialized Enduro climbs. I have previously spent a lot of time in the saddle of a GT I-Drive and a Klein Mantis and definately prefer the Enduro to both of them.

I am looking forward to seeing how the VPP designs turn out though. They are a promising idea if they are carried out properly, as someone else mentioned, they have a lot of interaction between chain torque and suspension but that may just prove to be the best way to isolate pedaling forces from other forces on the suspension, and once you have the pedaling forces isolated from other forces you are halfway towards finding a way to prevent them from ****ing up your suspension movement.

The epic is also trying to do something similar, but they take the opposite route, trying to isolate upward forces on the rear wheel from all other forces but I don't think that will ever make a decent jumping bike because every time you take off the lockout will turn on. Maybe they could put a good blow off valve on the shock to take care of that though?

[VTinCT]

Originally posted by indieboy
don't chump out, go get a good hard tail.....

No, no, tell us how you REALLY feel!:rolleyes:

Me, I love my Isis to pieces (literally!:D ). I rode my buddy's NRS however at Pedro's last weekend and holy sh!t that thing goes!!!!!:eek: Too flimsy for me, but its a screamer as hes got it set up (something like 25lbs!).

[JJHACK]

MikeD nailed this situation perfectly! Allowing a rear suspension bike to have the tire climb up and over things or the front tire to spring up and over roots and rocks is the best single track hill climber. If you're considering a gravel road, or smooth dirt track a hardtail or short travel stiff suspension would be fine. I can climb single track steep twisty rooty rocky hills way better on my 34 pound Kona Stinky then I ever will on my 27 pound Rocky Mountian Element race bike.The stinky has 6" travel rear and 5 in front. The Element has 3.5 in rear and 3 in front.

I was surprised at the huge advantage the heavier and much longer travel bike has. It's true though that Stinky will bounce up and over stuff that wil stop the lighter shorter travel bike cold. It may be also that the Kona is a 4 bar suspension and the RM is a single pivot. From My experience the 4 bar has been better in every condition. The Ellsworth bikes have identical rear suspension design.

[Toshi]

Originally posted by JJHACK
MikeD nailed this situation perfectly! Allowing a rear suspension bike to have the tire climb up and over things or the front tire to spring up and over roots and rocks is the best single track hill climber. If you're considering a gravel road, or smooth dirt track a hardtail or short travel stiff suspension would be fine. I can climb single track steep twisty rooty rocky hills way better on my 34 pound Kona Stinky then I ever will on my 27 pound Rocky Mountian Element race bike.The stinky has 6" travel rear and 5 in front. The Element has 3.5 in rear and 3 in front.

I was surprised at the huge advantage the heavier and much longer travel bike has. It's true though that Stinky will bounce up and over stuff that wil stop the lighter shorter travel bike cold. It may be also that the Kona is a 4 bar suspension and the RM is a single pivot. From My experience the 4 bar has been better in every condition. The Ellsworth bikes have identical rear suspension design.
I'm glad you like your Stinky, but it's wheel moves just as if it had a single pivot down by the BB. Wait, that's exactly what it has. :eek: :D Furthermore, with the exception of odd axle path bikes (Balfa, perhaps the V10 in the first 4 inches of its travel, if I understand it correctly) the design of suspension is going to take a back seat to the geometry/spring rate/damping/tire choice/rider position (ok call this "geometry take two") in determining how the bike responds to small, sharp impacts when climbing.

[WTGPhoben]

Originally posted by Toshi

I'm glad you like your Stinky, but it's wheel moves just as if it had a single pivot down by the BB. Wait, that's exactly what it has. :eek: :D Furthermore, with the exception of odd axle path bikes (Balfa, perhaps the V10 in the first 4 inches of its travel, if I understand it correctly) the design of suspension is going to take a back seat to the geometry/spring rate/damping/tire choice/rider position (ok call this "geometry take two") in determining how the bike responds to small, sharp impacts when climbing.

I'm going to have to disagree here. Although there are few, if any 100% active designs out there, ther are some basic differences that make for completely different feels.

Example: single pivot designs such as the superlight (and maybe the kona, I don't remember what the pivot setup looks like) are designed so that they lock out under load in the small ring. (most are designed to be neutral in the big or middle ring. on my SCsl, I don't go neutral until I'm in the big ring). The advantage of this is that you don't get any mush when sprinting or climbing as long as you have a relatively smooth pedal stroke, but you don't get small bump feel under load.

A horst link on the other hand is almost completely neutral ("active") throughout most of the stroke because most of the torque from the chain centers around the second pivot by the axle, and is counteracted by resistance perpendicular to the seatstays in the upper linkage. This means that you get much better small bump feel, but It's mushy.

in summary, suspention design does matter. Toshi's just bitter because he doesn't own a dualie anymore:eek: .

[Toshi]

Originally posted by WTGPhoben
I'm going to have to disagree here. blah blah blah? blah blah :dead:
Ok, let me clarify. For LOW PIVOT designs, not vastly different ones like your semi-suspension bike :eek: , it will not make much of a difference (at least in perception, disregarding the placebo/marketing effect) between a horst link and seatstay pivot.

[WTGPhoben]

Originally posted by Toshi

Ok, let me clarify. For LOW PIVOT designs, not vastly different ones like your semi-suspension bike :eek: , it will not make much of a difference (at least in perception, disregarding the placebo/marketing effect) between a horst link and seatstay pivot.

well, not really. The stinky is a low pivot singlepivot with a bent chainstay to counteract bob (I just looked at it). from the looks of it, the design will have less tendency to lock out in the small ring, achieving better small bump feel than a superlight, but is much more sensitive to chain forces in the bigger rings, making the suspension compress under load. It is different than a horst link because the chainforce will affect the suspension much more. And as I remember from when toshi had one, it had a real gooey feel to it.

PS toshi, are we doing this road ride?

[JJHACK]

Well, I think I may need an interpreter for this discussion! Whatever you want to call the design of the way any suspension system works( what's in a name anyhow) The Kona and Ellsworth Four bar is much different,........ totally different,......... and significanlty better! Then the single pivot on the Rocky mountain, klein adept, sugar 3, or any other similiar design when I am pedalling the bike. Maybe it's the personal feel each of us has to the bike? Probably why so many of each design are sold. Having ridden quite a few different bikes I know what fit's my "feel" the best. Your mileage may vary as they say.

It's likely just as much to do with frame size, seat height, cockpit length, air in the tires, angle of the stem, phase of the moon, time of the month......yada yada yada~!

I always get a kick out of these magazine bike tests when they get one 18" bike from the MFG to test but the five staffers ridng it vary in height from 5'5" to 6' 3" No wonder some of them love the bike and some hate it. Sized and fit properly to the tester's would the results be the same?


Fit of the bike is paramount to comfort, balance, and function. However everything else equal the Ellsworth and Kona suspension design is still better then the others I have used with a single pivot. I did ride an older Heckler which I thought was the best bike in the world at the time. I was sick when they discontinued it because I was going out to buy one right then!

Instead I was forced to keep shopping. When I rode an Ellsworth, I was floored at the plush and bottomless rear suspension. Night and day different to me. Each person MUST TEST ride any high end bike they to be sure it feels right. Most of us have a different idea on how things should feel too! I still have a sick craving for a new heckler even though I have absolutely no need for it. But with the 5th element and a Marz ZI free ride WOW that is a sweet single pivot ride!

[WTGPhoben]

Originally posted by JJHACK
The Kona and Ellsworth Four bar is much different,........ totally different,.........

well, its interesting that you group those two together because they are competely different. The ellsworth is actually closer to a horst link than a single pivot wher, as toshi said, the stinky is basically a sp design. The ellsworth, is a distillation of the horst design that almost completely eliminates pedaling forces because the seatstays are almost perpendicular to the upper swingarm. The kona does not have a pivot at the dropout, and delas with pedaling forces in a totally different way (although maybe just as effectively. I have never had a chance to compare the two bikes side by side)

JJ is right though that you have to try every bike before you buy, because everyone's tastes differ as to what is "best"

[WTGPhoben]

and in response to an offline conversation with toshi... there is more to the picture. in order for a bike to be completely neutral the chainline must be in line with the pivot arc of the suspension, but the horst compensates somewhat by creating a virtual pivot when the angle between the seatstay and chainstay changes, thus changing the chainline length.

geez, suspension is complicated...

[Toshi]

Eh. Keith, you just like to make up words and wave your hands. :eek: :dead: :D

[WTGPhoben]

Originally posted by Toshi
Eh. Keith, you just like to make up words and wave your hands. :eek: :dead: :D

I give up.

[Rustmouse]

well, I just bought a bullitt, and I'll tell you what, with the new suspension they have, it just got my vote for best climber... Other than the actual weight of the bike, (36 lbs, i think) it climbs nearly as good as my Rainier did! (course the price isn't as low, but...)
In addition to having no bob when pedaling, it's responsive enough to make up for my errors as a rider (and there's quite a few of those, for sure) It sucks up the rock chatter like it was nothing, and gives me enough adjustment to dial it in to my size, style and mood!

< Convert

[JJHACK]

I assure you the weight will be a non issue once you have a few steep climbs under your belt. The mid thirties weight bikes with long suspension travel are great going up steep technical single track. Not easily deflected and able to bounce up and over roots rocks and logs in the track.

My 34.5 pound stinky is much better then my sub 27lb RM Element Race!

[Scotty]

I think climbing has to do with your legs, not the bike. I have a Specialized Epic and a Trek 8000 hardtail and I climb pretty good on both bikes. I've ridden light and heavy bikes and I climb all the same. I only weight 150lbs so maybe that's why I don't feel much of a difference on different bikes. I think climbing has more to do with overall leg strength and stamina. The more you climb, the better you will be at it. If your climbing well now, then just get whatever bike catches your eye. There are a TON of great bikes out.

[Arutha]

Price, terrain, and riding style are huge factors in picking out a bike. Seems like you ride in rocky areas and since you are from CO I am guessing fairly dry. The bikes you mentioned are more XC oriented so again I am leaning that way in my thought.

I have to give kudos to the Truth. I have had one for a few years and it is amazing.(bushing style) Climbed and sprinted very well, while eating up the bumps. If I were to buy another XC bike I would either get another Truth or maybe a Turner XCE, and I would have to test ride a blur. People that I know who have ridden a Blur have great things to say about it. And of course Titus makes some nice bikes. Switchblade being the one I like but alot of people like the RacerX.

I am not a fan of single pivot bikes. I have ridden Superlights, Hecklers(old ones), Yetis, Aeon ISIS(Ellsworth), Loco-motos, and others. They just don't do it for me. But again price is a factor, most of these frames can be had for close to half the cost of a Truth. And maybe the air version of the 5th Element will change somethings but that is yet to be seen.

There are other bikes that have been mentioned that people seem to like Fishers, FSRs, and Treks. I can't recommend any of these cause I haven't ridden one but they are certainly an option.

Your best bet is to test ride and make sure the shop sets up the bike for you. That can make a huge difference. Good luck!

[golgiaparatus]

Originally posted by KrusteeButt
I really love my Specialized FSR-XC...I think it's absolutely fantastic for climbing. A buddy of mine is quite pleased with his SantaCrus Superlight.
I've heard the NRS is one of the best all-around XC-FS bikes, but I've never tried one.
I've also heard the same about the Jamis Dakar...isn't that what JOJO has now? Maybe drop her a line and ask what she thinks about it.
Of course Heidi will swear up and down by the Titus Racer-X.

Best thing really is to go to a few different dealers and ask to test ride...and obviously not just around their parking lot!

I had the Jamis Dakar pro for about a year. Good climber. The GF Sugar is suppose to be great. The truth is very good too. However nobody had raved about their XC FS's climbing ability like my buddy with the new Epic.

- JB

[Big_Papa1080]

im pretty sure JMAC and indie know what im gonna say but ill do it any way. giant NRS but the only fs bikes ive ridden were thAt and a jamis dakar sport.

[Thepagoda]

I'd recommend something with a suspension setup like that of the truth. this setup climbs pretty well and descends well. For my style riding it is nice. I don't know anything about the VPP designs except that on paper they look good. best advice though, don't buy a bike because it looks pretty. Definately take a test spin if you can.

[MTB Freak]

why not try the Christini AWD bike? that bike would be able to climb any hill, bob or no bob.



Christini (www.christini.com)

[Airborne]

Originally posted by -BB-
Yeah...
I've heard good things about it too.
they seem to have gotten around the whole VPP patent thing.
;)

but they seem heavy... got my hands one a few days ago.

[Airborne]

Originally posted by MTB Freak
why not try the Christini AWD bike? that bike would be able to climb any hill, bob or no bob.



Christini (www.christini.com)

anyone with thoughts on these? they are probably bears, but they sound SO interesting. i would love to have one trying to get up some wet, snow covered, rooed/rutted climbs here in the NE.

[Airborne]

Originally posted by golgiaparatus
I had the Jamis Dakar pro for about a year. Good climber. The GF Sugar is suppose to be great. The truth is very good too. However nobody had raved about their XC FS's climbing ability like my buddy with the new Epic.

- JB

My humble opines on some I have ridden:

Giant NRS: great climber for XC, less active than some designs suspension will not move unless impact force exceeds pedal force (good for the XC racer looking for suspension for the way down)

Gary Fisher Sugars: one of the bets f/s tecnical steeds out there. Roomier cockpit than most. newer Sybil link frames a nice feature for some trailriding (4") or xc (2.8" travel)

Specialized FSRs: Smoother suspension articulation than a Fisher, shorter cockpit. Great technical steed. All round superb blend of style, technical ability, and xc prowess

Epic: I've heard from the Dirt Rag gang that their is a breif hiatus before the shock gets the message that you can feel. Also, it will not compress during a bunny hop unless you hop once first (restricts shock movement from your downward compressions)

Santa Cruz Blur: the winner here I think (but I'd rather have a Truth or Foes). The do anything bike. Light, with gobs of travel (4" feels like 6").

SC Superlight: Newer designs seem to outshine single pivots, but hey, its got just one link to worry about/clean, and Alison Dunlap rides one when she's on f/s. Need you say more?

Ellsworth Truth: Simply awesome craftsmanship. I'd be all over this if I had 3K.

Foes FXR: the sleeper with 5" of travel and available with a 5th Element (Curnett (sp?) shock), but with XC geometry. looks interesting, never been on this - anyone with comments here?

Now I am very sad I do not have million bucks or a garage big enough for them all. For now, its me and my Giant...

[DomDil]

Hey, I have a new 2002 iron Horse hollowpoint if you're interested, e-mail me at biker_guy10@hotmail.com for a few pics!
thanks