Sweet Black Diamond (WA) Trails! [Archive]

ThomRandolph

07-21-2008, 12:32 PM

Y'all:

Hopefully I can catch the flak on this issue, because I'm intentionally putting myself in the way.

If you don't ride down near Black Diamond, across from the Lake Sawyer trails, you can probably ignore this.

If you DO ride there, on the other side of WA SR 169, on the Real Life Church's property, please read on....

If you're ridden there, you know there are signs on the trails saying you're welcome to use the existing trails, but please don't build new ones. You can't miss these signs: they're about 4 feet tall! We all know there are trails there that long ago started as bootleg trails, and over the years they've gotten some pretty steady use. Nobody's got a problem with that.

This weekend some church members were out doing some work near the highway, and a few ventured up the trails. What they found freaked them out, and that's putting it mildly. The found 3 or 4 long downhill runs with jumps, stunts, ramps, in some awesome lines down the hillside. Obviously a whole bunch of DH'ers put a LOT of time and energy into this system. They stumbled upon one very sweet set of rides, constructed in what appears to have been the last couple months.

Unfortunately, as landowners required by law to keep the forest undamaged, and required by law to keep the stream runoff clean, what they saw was about 40 young trees cut down, large pits dug, a significant quantity of beer cans and other trash, unsafe and unstable structures, spikes driven into trees, and what they estimated as about 5 acres of forest floor stripped bare. All that damage on a hillside that's known for landslides and erosion, and with a seasonal wetland at the foot of the hill. Yeah, one of those seasonal wetlands that's covered by some shiny new federal legislation.

You might say they reacted "strongly". Or maybe forcefully. Or, if you built the trails, you might even say "violently". 'Cause they tore the stunts down. They knocked down the ramps. They put logs in the berms. Yeah, they were pretty unhappy over the whole thing. Oh...and they picked up the trash.

The church pastor, elders and project manager that I met with tonight were all very clear that their strong hope is that they can continue to allow recreational use on the land. But, they have a lot to lose if things go south from a liability lawsuit and forest-management perspective. And MTBers do too. If we can't get this situation under control pronto, at some point they might have to close the area to ALL recreational use, and nobody wants that. Can you say "Paradise Valley?" I want you all to be really well aware of this: the church is open to finding a way where they can safely and sustainably supporting DH MTB use on their property. Don't blow this opportunity by just putting the things back up, or building elsewhere on the property. That will definitely NOT help the cause.

So, here's why I'm really writing tonight: if you've been involved in that area, if you helped build the stunts or used that area, can you please contact me? No, we're not turning people in to the cops or God or Batman or anyone else. Likewise, if you've been involved in working out these kinds of disagreements at places like Saint Edwards, Tolt Macdonald, or Philip Arnold parks, please contact me also.

So, please contact me. Off list preferably: thom@tctrandolph.com, my cell is 425-761-5259. And if all you want to do is flame me for being involved with such heinous trail-damaging meanies, that's cool, fire away. I'm only trying to stand in the middle and find a reasonable compromise.

Thank you for reading this!

Thom Randolph
thom@tctrandolph.com

jumping_jesus

07-21-2008, 03:09 PM

are you the guy who owns or works at the bike shop right there?

Borneo

07-21-2008, 03:41 PM

Nope, that's Peter.

Contact info here:

http://bdbikes.com/page.cfm?pageID=12

ThomRandolph

07-21-2008, 03:42 PM

Nope, I'm a rider who uses the trails, and is also known to some of the local landowners. I do know Pete at the bike shop, though. Man I **wish** I had a bike shop and not a desk job!

Skookum

07-21-2008, 10:46 PM

Sounds like Lake Sawyer is headed down the same path of Victor Falls.

There is alot that "could" happen right at Black Diamond, making it the South End mountain bike Mecca. Of which i have talked about on here before.

But with so many out of control bootleggers (this includes XC builders) it can also be like Bonney Lake, a place that used to be cool to ride, but now nothing exists....

Anyone who's anyone who's built mountain bike trails have made bootleg trail. Time's are changing, and i hope more people realize the only way to get something done that will last more than a few years is to be on the up and up/legit.

Before mountain bikers didn't have that opportunity. Now we are slowly getting there....

Skookum

07-21-2008, 10:59 PM

landowners required by law to keep the forest undamaged, and required by law to keep the stream runoff clean, what they saw was about 40 young trees cut down, large pits dug, a significant quantity of beer cans and other trash, unsafe and unstable structures, spikes driven into trees, and what they estimated as about 5 acres of forest floor stripped bare. All that damage on a hillside that's known for landslides and erosion, and with a seasonal wetland at the foot of the hill. Yeah, one of those seasonal wetlands that's covered by some shiny new federal legislation.
Y'know i just want to add, that it's really sad to be so focused at Colonnade. Always begging people to help out there. If the people that build out there helped out at Colonnade there are people that can teach how to build right, resources to use.

This along with the debacle at Henry's Ridge, it really bums me out, considering i could really see the potential the area has. There are other areas nearby that the county was thinking about turning into mountain bike park.

Man if things stay the same Black Diamond may be a mountain bike ghost town? Put an old rusty mountain bike on top of the coal carts.

People who care about that area had best step up now, because the potential is still there to be had....

jumping_jesus

07-22-2008, 12:04 AM

some of the people do build at the colonnade though and they do use their skills for good and they are great advocates for mtn biking but they weren't the only ones doing work out there. there was two other groups working on stuff too. and i refuse to belive that they would cut down trees for their work and that they would leave their trash around and if they did then:rant::rant::disgust::plthumbsdown::wtf::homer : i just wanted to use the homer face. Also as i understand it some else started it and then bailed on the project and someone else stumbled upon it and figured maybe we will just add to the fun and maybe that first somebody who started building their and then abandon ship cut down the trees and stuff (you know who you are by the way:disgust:) first. anyways its a sad thing and they might not of known that it was private property otherwise i dont think they would have continued to build where some one else started. the bottom line being though alot more people are being more and more open about the use of their land and sometimes all it takes is just asking them you might be surprised to their reaction all though i will admit some of my favorite trails to ride arent the most legit but thats just the way it is and some of my favorite trails to ride are legit too.

ThomRandolph

07-22-2008, 12:37 AM

Regarding Sawyer going away, we shouldn't get too worried. The Black Diamond agreement is pretty clear that 50% of the land in the area HAS to stay open space, forested, and allow for passive recreation. The people of Black Diamond, including developers, are well aware that MTB has a long history there, and we likely won't see it going away any time soon. Indeed, the church very specifically said they want to see mountain biking continue on that land.

Skookum, you quoted part of my text that has to do with them "being required by law" to do a bunch of things. The church's acquisition of those 99 acres was part of a fairly complicated deal. Their original deal had them taking 320 acres, with rights to put camp, trails, etc., on all of it. Instead, they gave the 219 acres into the Black Diamond Agreement, which said that additional land had to be left as forested openspace. This was part of a huge deal, and in total, we've been able to secure nearly 5000 acres now, with another 5000 acres in the next few years. Those 10000+ acres will STAY as open space, STAY undeveloped, and STAY with recreational access permanently.

The other aspect is that on those 99 acres, they agreed to develop something like 10 acres for the church and parking lots and roads. That ain't a whole lot. The rest is to stay forested. But, "forested" means that no more than 5% of the underlying land is disturbed. If part of the land has more than 5% cleared of underbrush and/or trees, it counts toward their developed portion. What that means is that their parking lot is smaller, or they close trails.

The regulations say that the impact-area of traditional singletrack trails is calculated as being 6-foot wide. When you have something that's 1/4 mile long at 60 feet wide, that's worth five MILES of trails out there! The thing is, the church signed an agreement that lets them develop based on them being good stewards of the land. They believe bikers are a GOOD use of the land, but it freaks them out when they see that kind of "use". Its just too much for the hillside to bear in the winter rains, its too much for the wetland to handle the runoff and erosion, and it completely changes how much singletrack can be allow on the land within the bounds of the agreements they signed up for. They're definitely between a rock and a hard place here, and the DH trails worry them greatly.

I definitely appreciate the loss at Bonney Lake (Victor Falls), and there's not anything that would please me more than for that to have never gone away. But, it did. I'm of the mind that I'd rather work to keep what we have, enjoy it now, and find a way to work with everyone: local/city/state government, developers, landowners, MTBers, horse riders, runners, everyone, and try to find ways where we can compromise so we all get something.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. Still looking to make contact with the builders. Not to get all uppity or anything, just to talk and find out what their desires are, and how we can ALL get what we want. And that means INCLUDING downhill run(s) on the land. But, it needs to be done with a little bit of talking before the buidling.

DesuL

07-22-2008, 02:04 AM

This post has some good info in it. The 6ft wide rule makes sense.

I lack the knowledge of who the builders are (not that I would admit it anyways) but if what your saying is true about really wanting to work with people this could be a great thing. I know the ODS has had very good experiences working with land owners and working out some of the liability issues that come up with this kind of sport.

Black Diamond does have a large concentration of DH/FR trails and it makes it look alot wider then it is. When you go to other trails like Port Angeles or Gailbraith they do not have a "park area" like SST and what is happening at Black Diamond. They may have some of the same stunts but they are spread out through longer single tracks.

Again the reports of trash and mess are sad but I don't think it can all be blamed on riders. Hope to hear more on this and hope there is resolution. If I were a builder i would love to come talk to the church and find out what can be done within the rules to improve on things and still have fun.

ThomRandolph

07-22-2008, 02:17 AM

Thanks for your input, DesuL.

I tend to agree with you regarding the trash, as I know the land was long-ago used by miners, who tended to bury trash and bottles everywhere. I was not there when they found the trails and tore down the structures. I was brought in after the fact, in hopes of opening a dialog. So I don't even know just how much trash they cleaned out: a single grocery bag full, or a dumpster-full. I suspect it's somewhere between those two extremes.

In any event, I have several good posts and e-mails with some leads and people to talk with, so hopefully I can get in touch with them. Stop the cycle, start the talking! Or, as some bumper stickers say: "Less Woof, More Wag".

jimbo_the_biker

07-22-2008, 02:59 AM

nwbansheescream

07-22-2008, 09:03 AM

so having rode black diamond and working at bd bikes. those trails are cool just not really the direction i want to go but tits tight to session up and the 30 footer is crazy. if you got a xc bike bd is for you.

ThomRandolph

07-22-2008, 01:26 PM

Yeah, if I had the $$$ to buy 320 acres of forested hills, or even 100, I'd put a church on it too...a Church of NeverEnding Singletrack Bliss, with a Cathedral to Sick Air. But in this case, I'm pretty glad they want us on the land, and want to work with us to make it stay that way. And they seem like genuinely good folk.

BBTCJON

07-22-2008, 02:13 PM

I can vouch for Thom as a long standing member of the MTB community and a BBTC supporter for at least the past 5 years now. Thom has contacted us (BBTC) as well and this is a brilliant opportunity for some legit trails.

To those who may be involved out there: if you're nervous about making contact with the land managers I'd be more than happy to assist as a liaison on your behalf to get the ball rolling. It's not everyday that we are presented with an opportunity like this and we'd be foolish not to pursue it.

As for the future of trails out at Black Diamond, there is great potential. As Thom mentioned, the city has an agreement with all developers out there for a 4 to 1 set aside. What this means is that for every acre developed, four have to be set aside as open space (which does allow passive recreation - King County defines mountain biking as passive recreation). Henry’s Ridge is a good example of this.

The County is currently working through some code revisions to allow building to continue out t Henry’s Ridge and as Skookum mentioned, there is a possible opportunity in the near future for a mountain bike park in the area. Though some of Black Diamonds trails are slated for development at some point, I don’t think folks have to worry about a lack of trails out there… this isn’t going to be like Victor Falls.

jimbo_the_biker

07-22-2008, 05:50 PM

I think you're right. This is a great opportunity for xc mountain bikers.

I don't condone a lot of the things that have happened at BD, especially the cutting of trees and littering. I rode there for over a year. Recently more and more people have been pouring in, and more and more trash has been left out there.

After hearing that they've destroyed the trails out there, its kinda hard to believe that they want to help the biking community.

But then, maybe I'm just a little disgruntled about the distruction of the only close trails I have access to.

I guess driving 50 miles each way, will be far less detrimental to the environment, than erosion.

trailhacker

07-22-2008, 06:55 PM

I think a better solution is to build more trails, less churches. There are already far more churches than trails out there.

Also, as far as building at collonade goes, not everybody lives in or near seattle, and its not a viable option.
I think I would rather have a church that is willing to share the property with recreationists than a developer that is going to build more houses (that I can't afford), condos and strip malls. As long as they aren't requiring us to praise Jesus to ride the trails this can only be a good thing.

The way I interpreted the mention of Collonade is that if people were to pitch in with a project like that they would learn how to build sustainalbe trails, instead of butchering the landscape and pissing off the land owners/managers.
I don't think anyone has said DH trails aren't sustainable; just that they are being built in an unsustainable way.

I think you're right. This is a great opportunity for xc mountain bikers.

I don't condone a lot of the things that have happened at BD, especially the cutting of trees and littering. I rode there for over a year. Recently more and more people have been pouring in, and more and more trash has been left out there.

After hearing that they've destroyed the trails out there, its kinda hard to believe that they want to help the biking community.

But then, maybe I'm just a little disgruntled about the distruction of the only close trails I have access to.

I guess driving 50 miles each way, will be far less detrimental to the environment, than erosion.

jimbo_the_biker

07-22-2008, 07:12 PM

Some of the BD builders, have built at collonade.

Oh well. Pirate trails always die anyhow.

Skookum

07-22-2008, 08:09 PM

Short history we get kicked off of trails, we make places to ride. We lose places to ride, we build with carefree abandon. We are entering a time now though where we can get places to build legitimately, but we as a entire user group need to adapt. Things were the way they were not because it's cool to bootleg, but because there was no other option. Times are changing.

Some of the BD builders, have built at collonade.

Yes and i know a couple who have helped me out tremendously on the particular trail i'm working on.

That's not the point i was trying to make.

i think the primary point should be that there is opportunity at Black Diamond. My post has a lot of doom and gloom, but it's based on a precedent on what's happened in the past. Thom as illustrated in his post has pointed out that this will probably not happen, and has described further the awesome potential we have not only for XC, but for DH/Freeride in the area, as Jon has mentioned.

My hope is that we can stop trying to cut our own throat by stepping off the bootleg trail building, and help support the efforts of advocates and trail builders working on the volunteer level.

i've been around long enough to see the area change, the free-for-all that's been going down. And while it's created opportunities to ride up to this point. It's going to get to a point where it will kill projects. That's the point i'm ultimately trying to make is there HAS to be a shift in how we as mountain bikers approach trails, and this is just one example that should illuminate the need for a shift in gears.

Borneo

07-23-2008, 01:02 AM

It's kind of ironic that we have this thread right next to the, "Help me build bootleg trails in Easton" thread...

Skookum

07-23-2008, 02:24 AM

It's kind of ironic that we have this thread right next to the, "Help me build bootleg trails in Easton" thread...
Yah uhh while related it's still defocusing off of an area where there is tangible real opportunity for parks. Black Diamond is not close to Easton, home of the mountain burger.

Turtle One

07-23-2008, 02:22 PM

I remember when the landowners were able to start surveying the east side BD trails. As I recall, Thom and some of the members of the Friends of Rock Creek were working with the owners to help with the project. I was a little skeptical when they told me the Church was supportive of allowing us continued access to the trails, but after meeting and speaking with them, I was a believer-in their good will and support for mountain bikers. As I recall, they only asked one thing and that was not to build any new trails or structures on their property; what they were asking seemed perfectly reasonable to me; after all, it was their property.

There is absolutely nothing ok with violating the request of the land owners not to build new trails or structures; especially when you step back and see they've actually welcomed us by allowing access to the east side trails.

The theme that stands out (to me) in this picture, says there are a hand full of people who want what they want, regardless of the outcome. Fortunately, the greater majority of mountain bikers and trail users are smarter and more considerate; I want, what I want, and screw everyone else, will come back to bite all of us.

The east side BD trails are some of my favorite, I hope I can keep riding there. the above reflects the ramblings of a demented turtle :huh:

brakecheck

07-23-2008, 11:06 PM

that really sucks for all conerned in this topic...(including the church) look at blackrock oregon, they seem to have it worked out. more people should take it upon themselves to be more involved with everyones cooperation(such as imba & other local groups) aren't we suppose to flow with it and not just case it?-brakecheck:monkeydance:

bockner

07-24-2008, 04:08 PM

I would bet that it was more all the **** left laying around than the trails, I know I would be pissed if land I owned was covered in beer cans, although once the woodwork goes up so do the odds of it being blown down.

I think DBX6Rider put it best once when he said "if you carry all that **** in when it is full (cans and bottles) why the F*&K can't you carry it out empty?" Great question my friend....

Singletrackone

07-24-2008, 10:27 PM

Where does the church property end? I would like to know whether a proper enviromental study has been completed on the impact of the planned development.
Does anyone have the contact info for the group that built Henrys Ridge?

fuzzycatnuts

07-25-2008, 02:54 PM

I dont think people really knew what the deal was with the land. I have been there a bunch of times and assumed the builders had some kind of dont ask dont tell understanding, like how SST is.

Sadly I think some of the beer cans stuck in the landings came from the SOME of people that worked them, I could never understand why someone would leave trash around thier own work, I doubt the trash amounted to more than a small garbage bag, still not cool though. Also the cutting of live trees was stupid, any good trail builder knows better, at least hide the evidence.

It sucks that the freeride stunts and trails got torn down, but is sounds like we have a great opportunity to possible go back and rebuild them in a sustainable legal manner.

Singletrackone

07-25-2008, 09:43 PM

I would like to say that all the beer cans were properly interned in the jumps, along with other assorted TRASH (mattresses tires etc...)that losers left out there. Anything left out in the open was left by interlopers who were looking for a good time but no work.
I hope thatt a sustainable network will be built and maintained but I think self regulation is out of the question. As far as drainage goes either ignorance or piety is speaking about the dangers of erosion or runoff.

dbirds2

07-27-2008, 11:12 PM

well its been a long time for me at this website. It looks like another awesome freeride area has been demolished. I dont waste my time riding in surrounding Seattle area spots, Im to busy riding stellar freeride trails in Canada. I got seek of the b.s and all the talk about legit areas like collanade and duthie, These are great places for begginers, but not for people that like to go big and fast. You can not build big at these so called legit places, that is why people build their own version of big and gnar and usually it gets torn down and the cycle starts over, so dont waste your time in Seattle and Drive up north to the greatest freeride scene CANADA oh! dont forget oregon. Cheers

dbirds2

07-27-2008, 11:14 PM

Oh! I forgot to give my props to Port Angeles and Beacon, but last time I checked that wasnt really considered seattle....................

fuzzycatnuts

07-28-2008, 06:27 AM

Ya, gas is cheap and getting cheaper, driving for 3 hours every weekend is a great idea! Waste of time to try and find any good riding around here....

I know Colonnade is not exactly what you, or me wants, but you have to start somewhere. I went to a few work parties at colonnade and ended up building the advanced jump line with 15 to 25 foot table tops, I dont think beginners are cleaning that line 1st try. I know, I know, they are not gaps, but they gave me a bobcat to build them with, and the best part is that line will be around for many years to come! Duthie hill will be bigger and better, and after that maybe we get a real mountian to build on.

dbirds2

07-28-2008, 01:58 PM

fuzzycatnuts

07-28-2008, 03:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhFMfiUHUkg

Guy, my point is you have to start small and work with the city and prove we know what were doing, once these places are finished we can go to King County or surrounding areas and hopefully get a REAL mountain to build sick trails on, like the shore. The more people who get involved and go to work parties and board meeting the faster this procsess will be, then we wont have to wait tell were old or drive 3-4 hours. People up in Canada are still fighting hard for the rights to have trails. http://www.nsmb.com/page/s/2553/bright-future-on-cypress

dbirds2

07-28-2008, 03:58 PM

you make a good point, but Ive helped and tried and nothing got done. So instead of fighting I moved out of Seattle, closer to places like Beacon, Silver Star,silvermountain and leavenworth. In fact I was getting ready to go shuttle Ribbed trail in leavenworth today, made some phone calls and found out that the ahole forest service just tore the whole thing down. Another epic true mountain ride down. Some kid got hurt on this trail a few months ago, he was inexperienced and trying to go off a 10 ft drop on a hard tail. I wish people who's skill levels are not good would stay in the skills parks until they progress. Trails get torn down when people start getting hurt and medi-vaced of the mountain. I was on the trail that day when the kid got hurt and the cop said there was 3 people in 1 month that got carried out on stretchers. He said they would be tearing down the trail, I tried making some points with him and he told me that this was going to happen no matter what. My point there is riders that need to stay in skills park areas to build skills and there is riders that need big mountain riding to stay interested in the sport. Hopefully things will change, but I doubt it. Cheers and thanx for lobbying for our rights.

Skookum

07-28-2008, 09:42 PM

People complained about Snoqualmie lift access trails calling it Snocrummy. Wasn't hard core enough, same kind of post. Now people are begging for lift access at Stevens.

Deja vu am i alone in seeing this kind of attitude by a vocal minority? If you give up on trying, well that's on you. Some days i really honestly say i can't blame you. But don't bag out on people trying to build something from the ground up or doing things the right way.

The truth is that nobody thought Colonnade would be what it is now. You have no idea how much work had to be done to get it how it is currently. In the middle of summer it's hard enough to get volunteers, but we can't get Dbirds2 stamp of approval because his ego tells him the trails are too beginner level for him to be affiliated.

When i say help support mountain biking it means you have choices. Choices like give donations, give time to dig. lead rides, but it also means don't bag out on people and places that are moving in the right direction. That's part of supporting, just because you're impatient and want to move to Canada, because you give up. Doesn't mean you have to plant your flag of protest, and stab it in the back of mountain bikers that are still trying the only way where you can see real progress. Even if it is slow, because we are not your enemy, don't $hit on us like we are....

Moving on to another tangent i want to rant about.

Lake Sawyer was originally a bunch of trails made and used by various groups. Now there is free-for-all. Trails that are not legit are not owned or controlled by anyone. Isn't it a drag that the original builders don't have any say how a trail winds up? It just morphs into whatever. Sometimes that's fine, but the problem you can see is when it's not fine and evolves into minor or major problems.

Hey, i'm not trying to bag out on what people do, i enjoy Lake Sawyer (when i used to ride). But let's not lie to ourselves what's going on, and try to bury problems. i for one think it suck that a trail builder can't maintain his/her original vision for a trail if they did all the work, but hey when you don't build legit that's what you have to expect to happen, right? You think you know a trail, ride there a year later, and there are so many braids you don't know where to go...

i could blather on but i'll spare any readers that are still on board. But i will say this. Just yesterday a volunteer confided to me that he was worried that Colonnade was going to be a White Elephant. First i had to ask what the hell a White Elephant was, which he explained was a project that was doomed, because nobody was going to show up, support, and/or ride. Luckily for us all, it's not a failure, everytime i work out there i see tons of riders of all ages and abilities. We pulled it off, and have made more people happy than otherwise. i then told him, that i never doubted we could make a fun park and it would be a success. My fear was always that if anything was going to kill the project it was going to be mountain bikers ourselves. We are always going to be our own worst enemy. Yah that's pretty passe, but whether you are far away or intimately close to the process you gotta try to recognize the truth in that. If we support each other and help each other "try" to do the right thing, we will be so much better off in getting what we want.

Won't we? Or have i been wasting my time.

dbirds2

07-29-2008, 01:28 AM

hey skookum! Chill out, I am not crapping on anyone, I am just saying for alot of people we need bigger and faster and that is why certain trails get built that way. No need to be calling me ego. I'm only pissed because the trails with bigger lines are getting torn down and there is so few in the area. If anything, looks like you always have best answer for anything that comes up on these forums. You dont speak for all riders. So dont get offended when someone calls certain bike parks in Seattle beginner areas,because that is what they are, who freakin cares. By the way I have thrown dirt at Collanade,Snoqualmie and some trails up at Tokul. So Quit always bitchin at the people that like things a little bigger and faster, grab your bike and go ride. rip it baby, Later

F.M.

07-29-2008, 02:22 AM

dbirds2, you are an idiot
:blah: :popcorn:

dbirds2

07-29-2008, 10:29 AM

Makana425

07-29-2008, 10:54 AM

Bro! Last time I checked there is no 15-25ft tables at collanade, I could be wrong. I talked to some of the people who are going to build some of the duthie lines and they are very limited on how big they can build. My point is places like these are fun for a bit, then get very boring. Riding underneath a freeway is not mountain biking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and I do not want to wait until I am a old man before there is anything descent and legal in the
seattle area, so until then I will continue to get friends and drive up north where the riding,people and politics make sense. Later Mates!

Dbirds2 is right, It seems that the faster free riders and downhillers want to go and the bigger they want to go there is a need for bigger jumps. Once and xc rider comes along and sees its to big or illegal they get the politics involved and the trail gets shut down. To build a long trail that is smooth and good flow takes numerous hours of trail building. Why doesn't people tare down xc trails? The point i am getting a crossed is that if the trail are to big go back when your physically and mentally ready. There is no need for trails to be torn down or changed just because you cant hit them.

Borneo

07-29-2008, 11:17 AM

Makana425

07-29-2008, 11:30 AM

Stuff doesn't get torn down because its, "too big" for some. It gets torn down because it's bootlegged in on someone else's property. (Yes, "public" property qualifies.) Simple as that. the bigger it is, the bigger the liability. No matter what state law says. XC trails get closed too. All the time.

Edit: some things are better left unsaid....

Kids...

Back to chuckling from the side lines. :popcorn:

Liability is the main issue. Like colonnade the expert line had a road gap and some good doubles. Now people get freaked out because it is to big or they cant hit it. The expert line should have gaps. From how i see it we build are trails you leave us alone and we leave you alone.:cheers:

Snacks

07-29-2008, 12:02 PM

I'm only pissed because the trails with bigger lines are getting torn down and there is so few in the area.

Question, are these trails being built legally?

PsychO!1

07-29-2008, 12:25 PM

Hey kids.....save your allowance and buy your own land. Build as big as you want and nobody can tear it down.

If you want to play on someone elses land, It's reasonable to expect to havr to play by their rules.

fuzzycatnuts

07-29-2008, 03:10 PM

Liability is the main issue. Like colonnade the expert line had a road gap and some good doubles. Now people get freaked out because it is to big or they cant hit it. The expert line should have gaps. From how i see it we build are trails you leave us alone and we leave you alone.:cheers:

We always had a plain to put in a brige on the "road gap", Mike did try and go to bat for us on this and keep the gap but the city said no gaps. I still think its a fun line and what a great place for riders to safely build up to bigger jumps. Your missing the point, this is a stepping stone for bigger and better things. If you want big gaps get involved, how do you think the guys a P.A, Post Canyon, Blackrock got legit trails with big gaps?
By the way, DNR is has known about 27, 38 ect.. for years...

Do you understand the concept of property? You cant just go build what ever you want on someone else property and not expect it to be torn down.
Belive me I have seen a trail that took me hunderds of hours to build distroyed in 1 day. This is why I seek out a sustainable legal way to build now, dont get me wrong, most of my riding is done at illegal spots and I am glad people built them, sometimes it has to be done.

We are all on the same side and want the same thing. And unless we want t continue this circle of building without permission then watching it get torn down we are going to have to buck up and work with DNR, Landownders, ect... I know politics suck but thats the way it is.

fuzzycatnuts

07-29-2008, 03:28 PM

fm! everyones got ther own opinion, one thing I'm not is a passive pussy like most people in Seattle. Doing things the the so called right way hasnt got jack s... done. Screw the political way, it sucks just look at this country, doings things the right,political way sucks, you freakin passive idiot.

Correct me if I am wrong, but arent you the guy the just got a bunch of your jumps torn down? What are you going to do, go down there and beat up the landowners? Your so tuff for talking smack on the internet, I think it is you who is sucking right now.

also you give props to Becon, P.A. and north shore, well guess what, they had to do things the political way and now have sweet trails to ride.

asif

07-29-2008, 04:46 PM

Wow.. mnt bikers are some of the biggest assholes around it seems.

Everybody wants legit trails and appreciates anybody that is working towards that goal. But until there are some *legit* freeride/downhill trails around king county the black market trails will continue out of necessity. So deal with it and quit acting like its a good thing when they are torn down. Because guess what. One good one gets torn down 3 ****ty ones pop up.

trailhacker

07-29-2008, 06:28 PM

Because guess what. One good one gets torn down 3 ****ty ones pop up.
Help me out here; is this a good thing or bad?

Seems to me the "renegade" (DNR's term) faction is the one doing the bitching?
If you choose that path, suck it up when it gets taken out. Should have known it was coming when they started. No use whining now.
I have been down the renegade path. If you ever ride any of the places no one is supposed to mention you have ridden trails I (with lots of help from others) built.
I have since given up that route as its not worth it to put in that much effort to be kicked out.

As for "gaps".
Help me understand this. The jumps are the same size (height, distance from lip-to-lip) now as "tabletops" as they were as "gaps" before. They just have the middle filled in? So in essence it is still the same jump just with a built-in safety net?
Am I correct in my understanding? If so, how can anyone have a problem with that? IT IS STILL THE SAME JUMP!

dbirds2

07-29-2008, 07:29 PM

Asif is right on the nose on this subject. I have posted on this subject and say blah!blah!blah!, Maybe if certain people didnt act almost cheerfully when certain trails get torn down,stating thats why we build the right way,blah!blah! maybe mtn bikers wouldnt be crapping on each other and on certain projects. Until we get legit freeride/dh trails in the area the black market will continue and maybe in the future we,I wont have to hear some knuckle head say, I told you so. Out, off to ride in the black market.

dbirds2

07-29-2008, 07:58 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but arent you the guy the just got a bunch of your jumps torn down? What are you going to do, go down there and beat up the landowners? Your so tuff for talking smack on the internet, I think it is you who is sucking right now.

also you give props to Becon, P.A. and north shore, well guess what, they had to do things the political way and now have sweet trails to ride.

Actually I did build one of the jumps. I dont ride in the area anymore. I moved closer to Eastern British Columbia and Beacon, those are my new riding areas. I just feel sorry for my old riding partners having to deal with all that same B.S in the Seattle area and last time I checked Beacon,Pa and Canada are no where near Seattle. The Government and people of that area will never allow such riding places! Good Luck! It is a whole different breed of people in places like Eastern WA, Olympics and Canada. There is not as many people more open land and generally more freedom to do what you like.

bockner

07-29-2008, 08:11 PM

I think the horse is dead.....you can stop beating it now

Skookum

07-29-2008, 08:38 PM

i didn't call anyone names. Ego is not a bad word. And your opinion is your opinion, that's fine, but you took it to the level of bagging out the process. That's suicide for what you want, which is bigger/faster , even if you don't want to accept it.

Look i'm not trying to bag out on what you want to ride. Do you think i or anyone else want's to be a trail cop? Hell no.

i'm raising issues that nobody wants to talk about so we can all find out what everybody wants, and where we want to go. It always seems like we wind up tearing each other down in the process.

So let's make it simple.

If you hear there is an area like Black Diamond where there is future mountain bike projects. Chill out, cease and desist, and don't screw everybody to serve just yourself. That's all.

The fact is the politics are sucky and super slow. But i ask everyone including those who disagree with me to understand that there are people that are sacrificing so that things will be better.

i raise alot of points that might anger not only Freeride people but XC people. And i'm not doing it to make enemies. i'm doing it because nobody else will say it. Maybe i'm off the mark, and i don't think mountain bikers are bad and totally off course. i'm just saying we should all try to stay together and try to steer in the right direction together. Nobody can dispute with Galby, Black Rock, PA, Colonnade, that we have a ball rolling. i just want to put my point of view out there too, stuff to think about, and the reason is that i think if we think of ourselves as a whole, together. We'll get a hell of alot further than just thinking of our individual selves.

No reason to name call no more, it's good debate, see ya all on the trail.

Makana425

07-29-2008, 11:49 PM

bent^biker

07-29-2008, 11:58 PM

uhhhhh, how is that relevant? ^^^^

bikegrrl

07-30-2008, 12:22 AM

I would bet that it was more all the **** left laying around than the trails, I know I would be pissed if land I owned was covered in beer cans, although once the woodwork goes up so do the odds of it being blown down.

Have you ever actually ridden there? I've seen one or two beer cans at most any of the multiple times I've been there.

trailhacker

07-30-2008, 01:03 AM

Bigger and faster isn't suicide, think of the world class dh, they want to go faster and go bigger. So why can't we? If you dont want to just go ride some where else

Dude, reread what you quoted. If you don't get what is wrong with what you wrote here please sign up for a remedial reading comprehension class.

In case you still feel the same way (???), you CAN do what ever you want.
As long as:
1) you own the property you build bigger and faster on
2) you only build what is approved where it is approved
or, if all else fails:
3) you don't go all e-jihad (I am making a consious effort to include that saying as much as possible from now on!) on the FS, DNR or whoever rains on your parade.
You build bootleg knowing the risk is it is going to get torn down. Don't get in a huff WHEN (not if) that happens.

PS, you can go back a few years here if you searched the archives and find that this comes up probably once a year or more. And I still can't believe that people cut down living trees, nail into living trees and don't see this as a problem?????

trailhacker

07-30-2008, 01:05 AM

Have you ever actually ridden there? I've seen one or two beer cans at most any of the multiple times I've been there.

?????????????
So isn't that one or two too many????

I think it was already stated in this thread, but if you can carry it in full why can't you take it out empty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fromet

07-30-2008, 01:43 AM

Makana425

07-30-2008, 12:06 PM

I enjoyed my time building and riding those trails. I fully understood that they would one day be torn down. You must work with the system if you expect your work to survive.
With that said, illegal trails will always exist, rule, then get torn down.

i agree with you fromet, thats the way it goes, But if you want a legal trail that will take time. More time than you would want to spend as such why illegal trails get torn down

CrashMaster

07-30-2008, 01:16 PM

i am gonna buy some property, build sick trails with gaps and everything, spread the word, post directions on the internet, wait til they're popular, and then tear em down. then you guys can start a new thread complaining about that. cuz this one is getting boring.

bockner

07-30-2008, 01:44 PM

Have you ever actually ridden there? I've seen one or two beer cans at most any of the multiple times I've been there.

Why yes bikegrrl I have and if you have only seen one or two beer cans laying around then you were not looking too hard or maybe I should have included all the energy drink cans as well....either way its gone now

And trailhacker is right.....isn't two more than enough considering its someone elses property?

Singletrackone

07-30-2008, 02:20 PM

Hi all,

First a good case guard takes care of the tabletop issue. Second we need to work with landowners who appreciate a good trail and use the legal framework established to protect more trails, Mtn biking is considered passive recreation and if we stopped smoking out and drinking beer all the time we might have enough time to pressure local land managers to let us build. Trails die because we as riders are lazy and unwilling to take on centers of power to make our lifestyle legit. Collonade is a great idea, but a poor subsitute for a 5 mile ripping descent. What we need is a few good lawyers who can put the paperwork together.....:lighten:

asif

07-31-2008, 12:11 AM

Im not sure what you ppl are smoking. The bitching i always see on these threads isnt from the builders that got there **** torn down but from the ppl that dont even ride the damn trails. "Thats what happens when ... bla legit bla bla". Well thanks for the advice dad.

OMG they put a spike in a tree or cut one down. WTF do you ppl wipe your asses with? I bet your house is under 5 years old and there was some nice plush forest there 6 years ago (somebody help me out with what thats called). But somebody takes out a few trees and moves a bit of dirt for 3 or 4 lines that are about quarter mile a piece and you act like they are drowning kittens and having satanic rituals.

5 acres of forest stripped bare? Be a bit more dramatic please.

How the hell does a church have enough money to buy all this land? Or is this public land that they manage? If its public land we dont have the right to do whatever we want. But dont act like they are bending over backwards allowing us to use our land. We are the tax paying public right?

I think the next step is to get a religion recognized and build a church at the top of twenty7 and put signs all around saying "no whiny bitches".

bikegrrl

07-31-2008, 12:14 AM

?????????????
So isn't that one or two too many????

I think it was already stated in this thread, but if you can carry it in full why can't you take it out empty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do. And so do all of my friends. But I don't think it's my responsibility to babysit less-respectful people by packing out their cans too.

asif

07-31-2008, 12:28 AM

Oh and one more thing. For the ppl bitching about spiking and cutting down trees. If i find out you kill live trees and stick presents under then come christmas time. I am going to break into your houses, take your trees, and put them in your front yard with signs on them saying "Tree Killer lives here".

Makana425

07-31-2008, 12:39 AM

asif, i totally agree, well said, props for you man

asif

07-31-2008, 02:06 AM

I do. And so do all of my friends. But I don't think it's my responsibility to babysit less-respectful people by packing out their cans too.

Dont pack the cans out. Thats how the builders get paid. Its a long drive to Oregon but chi chiing$$ But please kick the plastic water bottles in the holes that were dug and kick dirt over them. I feel its quite stupid to haul those out as they will be put in a hole and covered up somewhere else by sanitation engineers.

dirtmover

07-31-2008, 11:33 AM

I hardly if ever post in this site cause there's way to much arguing going on. From an outsider looking in on this site makes one want to never post here. Those trails were very sweet and even the ones that did have big stunt were also very much a blast. And for those that didn't or weren't able to ride these trails you had missed out on some killer riding. To all the guys invovled in building I thank you.

R.I.P. Black Diamond

PeachesN'Cream

07-31-2008, 02:13 PM

http://a2.vox.com/6a00c225266b2e8e1d00d09e67fa6abe2b-pi

fuzzycatnuts

07-31-2008, 02:39 PM

RIP Berm Trail :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnCSbkJSodQ

trailhacker

07-31-2008, 05:15 PM

WOW, just wow. I sincerely hope you are just a pot-stirrer and aren't truly this ignorant?!?
The bitching i always see on these threads isnt from the builders that got there **** torn down but from the ppl that dont even ride the damn trails.
The "bitching and whining" DID start in this thread by people that ride the trails. Don't know if they were building or not. Also please see thread titled "idiots in the forest service". If that isn't a bitch-fest by a rider/potential builder I don't know what is.
But more importantly is they are ignoring the intent of the original poster of this thread: contact him to see if something can be worked out to SAVE at least a portion of these trails. Seriously, go back to the original post and re-read it. Yes, they are willing to let people build trails on THEIR property. Probably not huck-gnar-tastic. So I guess your not interested then?

OMG they put a spike in a tree or cut one down. WTF do you ppl wipe your asses with? I bet your house is under 5 years old and there was some nice plush forest there 6 years ago (somebody help me out with what thats called).

Do you know how the majority of people make money on forrested property THEY OWN? By harvesting timber. Do you have any idea what a big nail or "spike" does to a saw (or even worse to the person operating it) either cutting down the tree or proccessing it into usable wood products? Its one of the preffered methods for eco-terrorists; once the harvesters realize a tree has been "spiked" that tree may become unusable for fear of damage or injury. Seriously, look into it.
What right do you have to cut down trees that SOMEONE else owns? Mind if I come into your yard and start cutting down trees? How about I go into the far reaches of your property and start making things to my liking. I think I would take a shotgun to someone that tried this on my property.
The 2-ply I prefer and the timber in my 60yo house were both made from relatively the same thing; timber harvested and sold for profit by the people that OWNED the timber and property.

How the hell does a church have enough money to buy all this land? Or is this public land that they manage? If its public land we dont have the right to do whatever we want. But dont act like they are bending over backwards allowing us to use our land. We are the tax paying public right?
Are you knew to this country? Religion is big business, although technically "not for profit". They have enough money for this by soliciting donations from their members. And the larger church as a whole probably contributes too for what I would think would be a smaller church (franchise if you will) in BD. I really hope this isn't some foreign concept to you?
And yes, this is PRIVATE PROPERTY. This does not mean that you as a taxpayer have some right to it. Thats what PRIVATE PROPERTY means.
And yes again, they ARE bending over backwards to allow people to build trials on THEIR property.

I think the next step is to get a religion recognized and build a church at the top of twenty7 and put signs all around saying "no whiny bitches".
If this really bothers you so much then the next step is to buy your own land. Then you can put whatever signs you want.
Just remember though, some kid is going to come out there and start building things you don't want there. And dumping garbage.
Because they think they should be able to; (somebody help me out with what thats called) oh yeah, a sense of entitlement. What's mine is yours and all that.

Uruk-hai

07-31-2008, 07:05 PM

Well said Trailhacker.

dbirds2

08-01-2008, 12:53 AM

if these property owners are going to tear down the trails they could do a little common courtesy and make sure they pull all the nails and spikes out of the trees. Seems to me if they were worried about timber for dollars, they would get on it and get er done.

A GOOD TREE IS ONE USED TO BUILD TRAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

asif

08-01-2008, 01:23 AM

trailhacker, your a jerk, I bet a buddy that skookum would post first and just lost five bucks. And I'm not ignorant, just bored and sick of seeing these threads. SSDD

CrashMaster

08-01-2008, 11:34 AM

Webmaster, PLEASE delete this thread.

bikegrrl

08-01-2008, 02:02 PM

Singletrackone

08-01-2008, 07:37 PM

Well said, we need better access, not less

Skookum

08-01-2008, 07:52 PM

trailhacker, your a jerk, I bet a buddy that skookum would post first and just lost five bucks. And I'm not ignorant, just bored and sick of seeing these threads. SSDD

Haha, i'm pretty busy lately, otherwise that would have been a pretty good bet.

"Thats what happens when ... bla legit bla bla". Well thanks for the advice dad.

If i'm "dad" then you would be the strung out meth-head uncle.

Hopefully most mountain bikers out there know who better to trust in opinions.

By everybody here being vocal, it's pretty apparent there is a disconnect. Hopefully alot of people are thinking about this kinda stuff now. i'd rather people like you and others hate on me, than we as a group kinda float around not paying any attention to the problems we have.

Anyways sorry to defocus off the main point. i don't think all the trails need to die. Go back to the first post, never hurts to ask the owners what they may or may not go for. Colonnade can be used as a guide to show the owners what can be done or more. That's a big reason why it's important even though you don't like riding there.

Knobularlife

08-05-2008, 02:03 AM

Did you know pigs is smart as dogs?

It's true

Skookum

08-05-2008, 08:37 PM

Did you know pigs is smart as dogs?

It's true

Bananas...

ThomRandolph

08-07-2008, 02:49 AM

Pigs might be as smart as dogs, but what about cats and snakes? I dunno about you, but I don't think I've ever seen a pig lick it's a$$ and then try to kiss me! So from that alone I think I'd prefer a pig. No, wait...pigs can't keep up with even ME on a good trail ride. Dang...guess it's back to the dogs after all....

Seriously, folks, thanks a huge amount for the opinion-spewing; it's been a treat to sit by and take it all in. Believe it or not, you ALL made great points, and provided some good links to films.

Thanks especially for posting the YouTube one about the Berm trail, as that not only looks like an awesome trail, but a SUSTAINABLE one too. If you look at the forest around that trail, it actually looks HEALTHY. That's what we want the Church to see...that we CAN make fun trails on **their** property that they can go for. If anyone has other videos, photos, etc. about those trails that can help show what's possible and how it's awesome, it will go a long way toward helping the Church understand that it wasn't just a bunch of loser crazies on beer- and red bull-fuelled forest-slashing frenzy.

I've been out to BD a couple times since this all started, and we definitely have our work cut out for us. As always, the rains are coming back in late September if not sooner. Because of that, we really need to get that area cleaned up before then. Plus, there ain't no safe way off that side of the hill anymore! Yeah, that just ain't right. So, we need to clean up and pack down the loose dirt, and make work with the Church to decide what kind of trail is reasonable there.

The other thing to remember is that most of the trails up there are actually VERY sensitive to their environment. They've put in mostly-decent bridges over tagged wetlands, and in general they are well made trails that don't damage the forest of the trees. All the builders can be proud of that, and it's something we can show the Church as evidence that by-and-large MTB trail builders ARE responsible stewards of their lands.

Another thing I noticed while out there is there is definitely a need for clearer signing by the Church down below. Entering from the flat part on SR169, I can see how it might be unclear that it's the same chunk of land as what you come into from the top, across from the coal-car. So everyone knows what's what, I've recommended the Church put the "please do ride here just don't build new trails" signs down below, like there are up above. There are some restrictions about the signs not being visible from the road, but nothing that can't be dealt with.

Someone asked whether there had been an environmental impact study done on the building plans yet. Man, you have no idea. First, the Church hasn't filed any firm plans yet, as they're still thinking and talking about it what they want to build, and where. That's a ways off yet. But you wanna know what? Even THEY, as "developers" get some crazy s**t thrown at them. Apparently in the beginning, someone in one department or another of King County (that will remain nameless) decided they hated ALL churches, and tried to slap a blanket wetland designation across the entire 99 acres. Not only is that just crazy, but if it had stood, it could have closed the land to ALL uses! The Church people are the ones who stood up to keep bike access even in areas near the wetlands, and eventually saner heads prevailed.

I've had a LOT of good input from people inside and outside this thread, and I want to thank you all. I'll be contacting many of you, including some of those posting here, to see if you're interested in getting together to figure out a way to make this work. Please feel free to contact me offline at thom at tctrandolph.com, or 425-761-5259. Really. I want your input, and I want your help in making this work. Yes, even if all you want to do is rant and whine and tell me I'm the worst kind of political trash there is. Hey...you wouldn't be the first one...and those are the people that LIKE me!

And believe me, I completely sympathize with those who say "politics suck", 'cause let's face it: it does. But, it's how real, upstanding, long-lasting agreements get made. Sure it's slow, sure the meetings can be boring when we'd all rather be out riding the trails than talking about them. I don't ride DH or FR and when I ride XC sometimes the trees jump in front of me. I do, however, often manage to find compromises that people can live with. And I'm willing to live through those unending meetings, taking notes, suggesting alternatives, and finding that common ground so the rest of the monkeys can ride. Well, so I can ride too...gotta have SOME level of entitlement in me, after all, I AM American!

So, what do we do next? What any red-blooded RideMonkey would do: start a new thread! Yeah, baby. Look for more posts soon, and thanks a bunch for keeping the thread wholly confrontational; passion is good!

Thom Randolph
thom at tctrandolph.com
425-761-5259

dirtmover

08-07-2008, 01:37 PM

Thom

So as of right now will the berm trail be staying? That trail was one of the features out there that was the most useful to me and my riding. It was well built and very well maintained.

ThomRandolph

08-07-2008, 02:04 PM

As of this moment, the berm trail as we knew it is mostly R.I.P, with short sections still in place but the flow gone. Of the runs, lines and stunts that the Church removed, that would likely be the easiest to get them to agree to. Can't promise anything until we actually talk to them, of course, but I'm optimistic.

trailhacker

08-07-2008, 05:02 PM

I dunno about you, but I don't think I've ever seen a pig lick it's a$$ and then try to kiss me!
You say that like the DOG is dumb...

dbirds2

08-07-2008, 08:20 PM

sounds to me like it will become another cross-country area. Good luck, time to build in greener pastures.

Skookum

08-07-2008, 08:58 PM

So as of right now will the berm trail be staying? That trail was one of the features out there that was the most useful to me and my riding. It was well built and very well maintained.
i am saying this as someone who is not going to be working at Duthie Hill, as in i'll likely be focusing my energy in other areas, like riding a bike....

But let me take a quick second and spam for Duthie Hill, probably something i won't do to the extent as i have for Colonnade. (i'm hoping i don't have to).

But let me be clear and vague so as to not make anyone uncomfortable. There will likely be a re-birth of that berm trail at Duthie, and it will be very similar for a reason. And regardless, i'm very confident, from talking to Mike Westra about Duthie, that he really really want's to put a huge emphasis on trails with "flow". Which berms are highly conducive to. i have a huge suspicion that the trails will all be planned and flagged so you can carry a nice amount of speed around the corners, and pumpable in spots to carry your speed from a down to an up. Unlike how people have decided to route trail at Lake Sawyer in a more tight twisty format. Trail building is like Chocolate and Vanilla, when there is too much of it you gotta do Strawberry.... i prefer Neapolitan myself...

From the initial sound of the Duthie project i'm really excited to hear of the ideas and possiblities. In my mind i would absolutely love to be involved in Duthie, but my body and life say that i cannot. i hope others take the ball and run, and make Duthie kick total ass....

No mas spam para me, adios.

ThomRandolph

08-07-2008, 09:54 PM

So....what would you say if I told you that the Berm trail maybe did not HAVE to stay dead?

Looks like there's a bunch out there reading this who actually WANT that trail to be cool and fun and not XC. Yes? Well, then let's bring that message to the Church! What's the worst they can do: say "no"? Well, how about we convince them there are a sizable number of people who would want it, and who could be trusted to work with them and not against them?

If we can do that, then maybe that trail CAN come back. But, I can almost guarantee if nobody is willing to sit with us at the table and speak up about what you want, then it ain't a-gonna happen.

Ever walked into a McDonald's and stood at the counter and refused to ask for what you wanted? Did you ever GET what you wanted? Yeah, I didn't think so (armed robberies no included). So, step right up and see if what you want is on that menu! You want fries with that? You might just be surprised.

Thom

dirtmover

08-08-2008, 11:33 AM

SeaPig

08-08-2008, 12:34 PM

If the berm trail was to come back that would be awesome but it doesn't mean that any of the of trails that were torn down would come back. Sounds like only the berm trail and nothing else. Many people aren't going to drive that far just for that. If there were other freeride/DH trails that would be awesome but it's not going to happen. If the church had just come out and left signs saying "please contact" or something on those lines before they went and destroyed those trails I bet they would have gotten more
co-operation from the builders but since that happen it's going to make the local builders not want anything do to with that place which was to bad.

Just my 2 cents.

I'll agree and make it a total of 4 cents. Not to say the Church didn't have the right (if it was their property, then they had the right). But, the talk of saving something that was already destroyed makes no sense. The builders built it, the owners tore it down. That's pretty loud and clear. It would be better to put energy into building something else.

ThomRandolph

08-08-2008, 05:35 PM

I think it's safe to say that both sides overstepped what a reasonable person might have done with a bit of thought and tolerance: Builders AND the Church.

So, let's say we have this XC-style single-track trail at the top of the hill, an old gravel road even further back, and old jeep trails and a road at the bottom. In between, we have a bunch of torn up dirt and "woody debris". Is your point that it would better to take that and design/build something better instead of trying to resurrect one of the old trails? Or, is your point that because people got unhappy, that we should just abandon that hillside because the builders won't come to the table?

Certainly the first would be more workable than the second. More work, but better in the long run. And more likely to get us riders something instead of nothing.

dirtmover

08-08-2008, 07:02 PM

I guess my point is that I'm sadden by this ordeal. My personal opinion is that the builders have no say and probably wont step to the table cause if they were to speak out it wont go anywhere especially since after a few years of building it just got torn down with ZERO notice or any communication from the church. Yeah it sucks to have seen them cut down trees and use nails and blah blah blah but it's gone. I'll just cry a river build a bridge and get over it.

SeaPig

08-08-2008, 07:56 PM

Or, is your point that because people got unhappy, that we should just abandon that hillside because the builders won't come to the table?

It's not that people got unhappy, it's that no one in their right mind enjoys being Sisyphus. (Look it up beaches.) It's too easy to say that people over-acted and that people are unhappy. I am one that rode the Berm trail many times. In fact, I have video of it and I will put it up soon. I am not unhappy it is gone. I don't think the builders are necessarily unhappy.

Every time you rode out there, you knew it would disappear one day. But to think that the guys who built it, I can only guess as I am not one of the builders, would want to sit down with The Church and discuss keeping it, greatly overlooks what the current environment is in this area. Due to the progression of our sport and the inability of those in position to advance advocacy for ride spots at the level required by the advance riders, we have a do it and get out mentality that abounds.

The last thing anyone would want to do, is justify themselves to someone who doesn't get it. The Church's actions, while legally appropriate, showed they were frightened and didn't get it. It's easier to just go and build somewhere else. I speak practically here. The thing that gets tiring on RM, is that so many people who can barely do a drop without tensing up, or who grab their brakes the moment they start going too fast, give advice to their cousins-the riders who can't go fast enough or jump far enough, about how to go about getting trails we want. The reason these other types don't help us, is that they think a few jumps here, or a AM trail there is all the area needs. They are happy we have that. What many of you who do not race or simply are satisfied to ride well, do not know, is the berm trail was about getting speed out of corners. Not learning to take corners fast, but getting speed out them. On a good run, one basically no-braked the entire run of 32 berms. It was making me faster. Notice that there were no jumps in the trail. Ever wonder why? Who wants to explain all that to a bulldozer driving landlord?

This is the point. It's not worth it, not because people are unhappy. RIP Berm trail, you were great while you lasted. By the way, I know first hand that the initial report on here was a little exaggerated. Ferns were moved and replanted. Drainage built to control erosion, etc. While some of the builders (there were several groups) crossed the line with their saws, they didn't do it to the extent reported here. That's one thing that frustrated me. So many people opinionated here that probably never made it out there. If you were one that never made it out there and then tossed out an opinion about the builders based on the exaggerated report here, that kind of makes you a fool.

I am curious how much damage the Church did with their bulldozer. In fact, did they have a permit for it? Just a little irony!

ThomRandolph

08-09-2008, 01:36 AM

Hmmmm...pretty defeatist stuff!

I'll be the first to admit I don't ride MTB like that. Yeah, I use my brakes. That others don't makes me respect their riding ability all the more, but it doesn't mean I have any desire to do what they do. I'm just not into hero worship, and I like what I do, how I do it. But, not everyone i know enjoys flying down a mountainside on a skinny-tire road bike at 65+MPH either. And I can tell you exactly what I like about roads that let me do that. I can't however, tell you what makes a good berm trail.

But, at least I know that I don't have a clue what's wanted by those who DO ride like that. I can see your points about what made that trail great, and I count that as a valuable opinion I'm glad you gave me.

The Church called me, out of the blue, because they had it on good authority that I would try to open the communication between the two groups. The thing to keep in mind is this: Real Life Church DOES Want Riders out there. Not "maybe", and not "until they build the church". They want riders out there today, and tomorrow, and 10 years from now, and 50 years from now.

I keep reading here "oh, the church tore down our stuff, so that proves they are all a$$holes who won't listen to anything I say". And guess what? The church called me saying "those a$$holes built all this stuff on our land without asking, they just want what they want without any regard to us". Well, guess what? The Church is openly asking for your input and guidance to find a solution. Don't prove them right as they stand there waiting for you to open your mouth and ask.

My role here is to be your bullhorn. Tell me what you want out there; tell me what you want them to do/say to make you realize they want your input. And no, we all know they're not going to put back everything the way it was; any more than they expect the riders/builders to.

Seems like we've all spent more than a couple hours typing into this forum, displaying some pretty strong passion for not making any progress. I say let's get together over a brew, and come up with what you would want out there.

Whatdya say?

Skookum

08-09-2008, 02:09 AM

Sooo, nobody understands what "I" want. So in your opinion it's justified to build not because there is absolutely no place that suits your ability to ride, but that they can't build something cool enough, fast enough. So your own personal progression takes priority. Am i correct in this interpretation?

Yet you don't work in the process to speed things along? i don't know if you do or not, i can't keep track....

But that's a big part of the deal, Colonnade is slashing more drops, jumps, berms and other things because of poor volunteer turnout at the end. That's a fact, and that's how these skill building parks work, whoever shows to build get's a pretty big say in the overall look of the project/trail/feature/stunt.

There is an opposite side of the coin and that's representing what riders who don't like your style of riding want. Many aspire to learn and get better, but many will not hesitate to not stand and support the projects that bring more advanced trails. And go back to the old days of us versus them which will kill future projects like skills parks. Which in turn will kill many great future opportunities for all mountain bikers. You would not believe how much feedback and criticism i would and still get for the beginner trail i'm working on, for being too difficult. It's crazy, but i worked as hard as i could to make it acceptable for all people to ride, but also make it hard enough for people to get better. Like i said, it doesn't hurt to get the people that have no skillz down that path of having them. Makes for more riders that want what you want, right?

So ultimately i get what you're saying, but know there are people that i also disagree with that are on the entire opposite side of the spectrum and don't care at all about your progression. (i don't care about your progression either, but i'm not a person who will not support you, as is obvious by my actions, opinions, past and present) Especially if it means it screws up or closes a trail they like to ride on. It really makes for a tough situation for people like me who are working as best as we can, doing what we think is good for ALL mountain bikers so we can have the best of both worlds.

Anyways thanks all the same DM and SP. i fully understand that how things are, are still going to be. Trails will be built, found out, and eliminated now and probably for a while.(Bridge over the river of tears, that was good). But please understand that Colonnade almost died before it even got to Phase 2. Alot of people sacrificed life, time, and money we could have been using to progress or digress or drink smoke or hell time we lost that we could have been lighting ourselves on fire for the fukc of it. But like i said before, we have now what most people on this board would have thought IMPOSSIBLE before. Ask that Mmike dude, he used to live here, and he would have bet his first born we wouldn't have pulled off what we did at Colonnade. So it might be a foolhardy dream on my part, but the reason for skills parks and other future projects/trails is make places so good, there will be no reason for illegal building. Yah it might not ever happen in our lifetime, BUT maybe it will, again Colonnade impossible just a few years ago...

Now sorry for running off on this Colonnade tangent AGAIN! But the Lake Sawyer stuff is related to the debate to me. And before i get done let's just piss everyone off while i'm at it, and state for the record, my whole tirade goes for the XC trails that are built there as well. And when i speak of free for all, i am mostly speaking of the tone that all the XC building is doing. Was any of the XC track built with permission? Not that it matters too much, but the tone has been set here right? And i don't much mind how Lake Sawyer started but look at it now, all of what, maybe 4 million miles of new singletrack that is popping up all over the place out there. i dunno i might be talking out my arse as i havent ridden there in forever. But everytime i ride through there over the years it's constantly sprawling. So if it appeared as if i was trying to speak specifically about the Church area, i'm not really. And i'm also speaking of being better organized and represented for projects like Henry's Ridge. i'm so out of the loop on that, but i hope that the shaky start resumes with all the original players, assuring the County that things are cool.

Yes it can be a pain in the ass, but building under watchful eyes of land managers is reality. But believe me in that it's just a challenge to be more creative, it should not be automatically viewed on as something to kill a project, and say ahh well fukc it let's drag up.... (not all the time i should say)

Anyways, nobody owes us nothing, we're all on our own out here. Like it or not all we have is each other....

http://www.bbtc.org/recreation/show_image.php?image_id=3301

SeaPig

08-09-2008, 04:15 AM

fuzzycatnuts

08-09-2008, 04:34 AM

Word^^

fuzzycatnuts

08-09-2008, 04:53 AM

My role here is to be your bullhorn. Tell me what you want out there; tell me what you want them to do/say to make you realize they want your input. And no, we all know they're not going to put back everything the way it was; any more than they expect the riders/builders to.

Sounds like saving the berm trail is the 1st thing people want. How about a large pump track at the bottom of it?....I would get behind building that!

ThomRandolph

08-09-2008, 01:53 PM

Now THAT'S what I'm talkinbout!

Any reason the pump track should be at the bottom? There's some pretty flat areas up near the top too, which seems like it would make questions of rain runoff much less an issue.

How big is "big"? The ones I'm seeing are like less than 100' x 100', which is cool, just wondering what size you're thinking.

fuzzycatnuts

08-09-2008, 03:52 PM

I was thinking at the bottom, would be sick to ride the berm trail then flow intoa pump track, does not have to be there though. I was thinking something 2-3x the size of colonnade.

What does the church say about the berm trail? What damage has been done to it?

ThomRandolph

08-09-2008, 04:25 PM

Yeah, that does sound good! Thanks for the input, fuzzycatnuts.

And, I presume you mean 2-3x the size of the pump track at Collonade...not 2-3x the size of the whole Collonade park! Though, that would definitely be sick! But it would also be hard to get their buy in on that.

From what I saw last weekend, the berm trail is in pretty bad shape; there are pieces of it still there, but it needs a LOT of work. My guess is probably 50-70% of the work that originally built it.

The Church hasn't said yes or no to anything yet, 'cause I haven't made any specific recommendations besides to fix the sign confusion. I've been holding off talking with them about specifics trail requests, hoping to get a small group to sit down with them. But, I'm not seeing "the builders" step up and say they want anything to do with that. It's neither good or bad really, and I half expected it. Maybe it's better that way, to avoid any shouting matches.

But, looks like we're making SOME progress here and I think it's getting to be time to walk the scene and do some asking. The weekend rain might even make them realize the time is now.

bent^biker

08-09-2008, 09:13 PM

If people get over themselves...

:rolleyes:

Skookum

08-09-2008, 09:40 PM

It's really hard to read your post. You go off on this self righteous stuff. I was down digging at the Colonnade tonight. I have helped in many parts of Phase II. I try to get out there as much as I can. On top of that, you probably don't know this, but I get paid to shoot and produce professionally. I have spent at least 30,000 of my own money in the last three years documenting our sport and covering the good and the frustrating. I have documented the Colonnade from the beginning of Phase I. When it is done, I'll be able to put together one tight story that will help bring on other legit projects. In fact, Mike has already used footage shot by me to help with Duthy.

Fair enough. My point was not to disparage you in your efforts. Thank you for your work.

While I don't dig as much as others, I do consider that my film work is a valuable part of bringing attention to our sport and our needs. I also believe that it has shown me many angles and several sides to our community. Before you judge, you have got to consider that there are many ways to give and help the community.

i agree. But tell me how i'm being judgemental. i'm not sentencing anyone to any bike jail time. i just have an opinion. That opinion is if we "move" away from illegal building, and "move" more towards legal stuff, we will get to what you want faster.
Reread your own writing and tell me that you're not looking out for your own interests. Don't worry you are FAR from alone, and it's a pretty common point of view.

If you think I am attacking the work at the Colonnade you are mistaken. If you read my post I am attacking this attitude that seems to not get why people are building illegally. And specifically why the builders probably wouldn't want to rebuild the Berm Trail at BD. I know that you are proud of your work on the Colonnade, and you should be, but if you think that the Colonnade and Duthy Hill solve all the needs of the community you are smoking something better than I am. The reason illegal trails get built, is because there is a large part of the community who's needs are not getting met. Are these needs legit? As legit as any rider's needs.

We totally agree. Where we disagree is "how" to get there faster. Skills parks, Galby, PA show land managers this can be done. If you look at my original point i'm saying we should "move" in this direction. If you look at my last post i say until we get to the point where illegal will be unnecessary.

Ultimately you end up proving my point in your post. It's like I pissed you off and then you realized that there is a divide between the AM and the Gravity Communities, as far as, advocating for ride spots is concerned. For the record, I believe in an equal mix of legal and illegal building. Those that want to wait in line can, but when you are asking for something that is legit, there is no reason in the world that you should wait in line. We all pay taxes, sales, property, etc. Why can't we have equal access to this land ( I know that the builders thought The Church land stopped at the trails, they thought it was public land.) Riding your bike down a steep and off a jump, or ripping a DH trail shouldn't ever be criminal?
You never pissed me off. But what does piss me off is my own inability to make my point understood.
And i hate the word All-Mountain. Sounds like a class of truck... But that's the latest jargon for XC now i suppose?
Anyways that's a bunch of nuthin...
Your last point is idealism, and it actually is based on the criminal. But that's ok because i've built criminally myself, i never made any illusions to myself about that.
But i agree with your premise in that you're totally right. You shouldn't have had to wait the last ten or so years to get gravity trails. i agree, and the fact that there is and will be illegal building is a testament for the need of more gravity trails.
Again where i diverge from you is the process. i think we have to protect and support the skills parks like a fragile baby so they can grow up to be future projects like NorthShore I-90. If we as a mountain biking community can prove we can play by some rules, i think it will happen sooner than later.

Sorry if i'm comin off self righteous.

Skookum

08-09-2008, 09:41 PM

:rolleyes:
busted.

:bonk:

Vote for me in 2004!

SeaPig

08-11-2008, 12:51 AM

Skookum - I reply to your above post like this. You are judgmental because you claim to understand people's motivations. If fighting for what I believe are a group's aspirations makes me looking out for my own interest, it's only because I am a part of that group. A group of riders that I believe would be gladly overlooked by land managers and organizers , because we frankly want more than they are comfortable giving. And my approach isn't ideological or criminal. It's pragmatic and "Civil Disobedience." Pragmatic, because with out illegal building, there would never be progression. No one would get better, because we'd have to wait for people to come around, and that is happening much slower than the sport of Gravity Biking is advancing. Illegal building has created the need and shown the way for the legal places. And finally, people who have exercised civil disobedience have had parks made in their honor - Walden Woods, for example. It always takes a while before the sheep see the value created when one steps outside the flock and carves a new path. This doesn't mean I don't believe in the legal pursuit of it all. It's just that they both feed off each other and only someone with blinders on would not see that.

So, what is it I am after by entering into this repartee? I don't like how those in our sport who benefit from the builders and riders who go outside the norm turn around and judge them as a problem to the sport. Both groups need each other. There as to be people fighting for legal access, and there has to be people building illegally. That is what has advanced our sport.

ThomRandolph

08-11-2008, 01:22 AM

SeaPig (and others):

I suppose the statement that illegal building has advanced the sport depends on what you mean by "advance". If you mean "provide opportunities for creating edge-pushing and typically dangerous stunts that make the sport and your films gather an edgy cult following, and improve the highest extensions of technical skill", then yeah, I could agree.

However, if you mean "advance" in the sense of "advance the cause" of gaining respectability, of gaining and keeping access, of becoming acceptable and expected as part of bicycling facilities by public and private landowners...well, all I can is something I think you said, SeaPig: "you must be smoking something better than what I am".

Stunts, structures, jumps, connector tails, shortcuts, even new trail entrances constantly raise the ire of landowners of all forms. Even the trailbuilders get ornery when people change "their" trails. And every time I've seen and been involved watching what happens (Tolt, St Ed's, three times at ToP, and numerous times at Sawyer), it is almost always the fact that talks never occurred. Instead, the additions were added simply because somebody decided they were somehow entitled to do so.

In other news, I heard that Pastor Steve from the Church went up and took a look around Colonnade this weekend. His response? Can't quote 'cause he didn't say it to me, but I'm told "He drove down to the new extreme course in Seattle himself this week and thought that it was cool. He indicated that he really thought that there was a chance to have something like that on the church's property."

I'm here to take the chance. And I don't care one bit whether the recipients of the benefits are the legals or the rogues.

In other news, the Church has also informed me that they in fact do have a permit covering the work. The permit number is FPA/N2412985 and it is valid from 7/15/2008 until 7/15/2010. The church also had to submit a forest management plan to King County - which it did last year. The permit is based on that forest management plan that was approved by King County DDES (building department) and King County Department of Natural Resources and Parks (DNRP). It took at least eight months for the church to get the permit.

Now, how many of you noticed the permit runs through 2010? Yes, that's almost two years. Two years in which the Church is permitted to use equipment in specific ways, not counting renewals. Given the difficulties and human effort put into moving rock and dirt on Tiger, Tolt, and at Colonnade, I'd say it might be an excellent opportunity to work WITH them to put that equipment to good use...making trails! Like that hoped-for larger-than-Colonnade pump track...how excellent would it be to have them helping us make THAT with a backhoe!?!?!?!

Thom.

SeaPig

08-11-2008, 01:56 AM

Thom - I know it's hard not to get too personal here. In fact, I just deleted a bunch in my response to you that I feel got too personal. But, the truth is you don't know my motivation. If you think I have taken this on, because I am advocating something selfish or personal, you are wrong.

So, I say again for simple clarity. The illegal builders advance the cause of the sport. Proof: you are trying to get them to join you in legalizing the Berm Trail. The illegal trail builders usually know and build what is missing from the organized and legit. They show us what is next.

In closing, a book could be written on how many illegal spots have become legal. All I am saying is respect and don't trivialize those that go out and build illegally. One of the reasons that people have been slow in coming around to you, is the way it all went down and the lack of understanding on the problem that was implicit in yours and others posts. In some way, the builders have become the heart beat of a young and growing sport. I don't look to shoot anything in particular. I just look for the story and my search has shown me what I have brought out in this argument.

My advice is that if you and others want illegal building to go way (as much as it can), then you have got to learn what it is that people are looking for and help that to be built. The only way you can learn this is by being open to a truly honest dialog.

ThomRandolph

08-11-2008, 03:50 AM

Well, I suspect my motivation is similarly being misinterpreted.

I'm not interested in arguing a post-game analysis of whether something "advances the sport" or not. That conversation, in it's current form is nothing but conjecture and wishful aligned-perspective, narrowly-scoped intellectual dishonesty (aka BS). And that goes for BOTH sides of the debate. Without actual controlled data to back up the claims of greater or lesser progress, the conclusions are neither philosophically nor sociologically useful. Reminds me of the great hikers-versus-MTB trail damage "debates" of years ago. Nothing but religious "my way is better" thinking that doesn't help anyone, and is ultimately won by the "might-makes-right" decision making process. Can you say "Wilderness Exclusions"?

What I'm trying to push here is not an abstract concept. It's about what are the desired next steps for a specific piece of land, owned by a specific set of people, a specific set of trails on that land, at a specific time: right now.

The question I put to you and everyone else is this: are you willing to stand up and be part of what will happen next? Or do you want to be a spectator to the world that we dream up and work to make a reality? Either way is perfectly fine with me. But without your participation, I can only guess as to whether what we come up with is what you're dreaming of.

Thom Randolph
425-761-5259
thom at tctrandolph dot com

SeaPig

08-11-2008, 04:45 AM

Thom, why don't you and The Church go and rebuild what was there, then you'll understand my argument. I promise, if you do, builders will come out of the wood work and help. You'll then see that what I am talking about isn't abstract at all. You'll then see why illegal building happens. You'll also show the builders you want to work together on this, despite the bulldozing, etc, that you're serious about this. It will get their trust.

Fuzycatnuts suggested a pump track at the bottom. The berm trail ran like a pump track or a dual slalom course. One thing this area really needs is a Dual Slalom course. A place where Friday night races could be run for example. A place for practice for those interested in that sport. A place for learning for those interested in being more flowy riders. A course like this really needs no jumps of any difficulty. They are more about pump track type of riding. This should not require big jumps and be relatively easy to put in place.

Say your going to build something like that, start the work and you'll have people lining up to help.

trailhacker

08-11-2008, 02:04 PM

What am I missing here????

Seapig, you keep talking about advancing the sport. It seems the topic of this thread was an opportunity to do just that?
I understand people are resentful that the trails they built and/or liked to ride got demolished but it seems to me that you and others need to get past that. The land owners are offering a chance for people to build things that will live on for the forseeable future. And in a place that is close enough to town to almost consider it in-city.

One thing this area really needs is a Dual Slalom course...
Say your going to build something like that, start the work and you'll have people lining up to help.
Did you miss where he asked people for input on what they want. This is your chance to step up and get some things "advanced" so to speak.
...start the work and you'll have people lining up to help...
I read into what he said as there is no free lunch though. If you want it, you need to sit down and say "here is what we want". You probably won't get everything but it sounds like they are pretty open. They are not going to build it for you.
How can this not look like a winning situation to you? I have not seen one post that says what you want built would be denied???

In closing, a book could be written on how many illegal spots have become legal.
That would have to be a pretty small book. Even on a national level that couldn't be more than a a handful of places.
And here we are being offered an oportunity to do just that and people aren't willing to do what it takes to make it happen.
Locally we have gained Collonade but lost Snocrummie. For the full tilit DH'r we would still be a -.5 in return on that deal. If you can show me anything local that has went from bootleg to legit please do. If you can do that then please show where that happened where the people didn't put in the effort to get it done.
And I am not sure of the process inlvolved with BD, but it seems to me that this could be a "now" thing. No long city council meetings(S, because it takes MANY to get something like this done), begging for permission to build a park with almost 100% volunteer labor and materials on property that was lost to drugs, derelicts and neglect, not having to cave into dog park demands or other user groups.

My advice is that if you and others want illegal building to go way (as much as it can), then you have got to learn what it is that people are looking for and help that to be built. The only way you can learn this is by being open to a truly honest dialog.
For one, I don't think the OP is looking to make illegal building go away except for on this property. Simple. This conversation keeps getting pulled in different directions talking about differnet places but it should only be about this one place. That you are being offered to build on WITH PERMISSION, what you want.
He is asking people to get involved and TELL THEM what they want to build. I have not seen one thing where he said you can't do this or that.
I would hope common sence would tell you what building methods can and can't be used. But that doesn't sound like the scope of what is wanted will be affected except that it needs to be built responsibly.

What am I missing here???

ThomRandolph

08-11-2008, 02:13 PM

Thanks, SeaPig. I don't think the church (or I) have the expertise to rebuild what was there, so that's just not a likely thing. I'm more than willing to watch and see if your argument proves true. I might even try to be objective ;-).

I have myself wondered why there are no DS courses around here, so I'll include that in the list of ideas. Actual requests and ideas are great, because I can bring those to the Church. I can't bring them a abstract notion that the illegal building was somehow good...they just don't agree.

ThomRandolph

08-11-2008, 02:22 PM

Yeah, that's much of my thinking too, TrailHacker; appreciate the second perspective. If the builders making trails with permission (TWP) wanted the same thing as what the illegals wanted, they would have built that, and the illegals wouldn't have needed to build anything. Because there clearly IS a difference in the two styles, if I gather a group of the willing and the DH/Gravity brigade won't get involved, the TWP people will build what they know how to build.

dirtmover

08-11-2008, 02:45 PM

This is what I would like to see happen with that area.

1) Would like to have the berm trail back
2) Would like to see the small line that was there on riders left. It wasn't anything huge or gnarly but it was something for a beginnger to get there feet wet with fr/dh
3) An advance line with slightly bigger gaps and stunts.
4) DS
5) Signs well marked from any exit that one would enter that area of the park
6) and my last request, please don't have Securitas give out the wrong information.
Securitas is the security guards for that area who gave out wrong information to the builders.

ThomRandolph

08-11-2008, 02:55 PM

Just had a funny thought....I sure WISH a book had been written about turning illegal stunts and structures into legal areas. Would certainly make this whole process a LOT easier! SeaPig...great idea! We'll call it "The Road Back From Perdition: Making Illegal Stunts and Trails Legal...Forever".

bent^biker

08-11-2008, 03:12 PM

Just had a funny thought....I sure WISH a book had been written about turning illegal stunts and structures into legal areas.

places like the north shore, dry hill, post canyon, and blackrock come to mind:shocked:. and while there isn't a book if you take a peek back a few issues in decline and all the major web publications covering the sport I'm sure you'll turn up something.

I would certainly get involved in an opportunity like this but I'll be moving away at the end of the week (45min from post :pirate2:) so it is kinda up to you guys. SP: I understand where you are coming from and indeed share some of your sentiments but at this point you are no longer being helpful and your last post just lost you any credibility in this discussion. How bout the bickering stos and you all get to work on how to get some sick trails rocking? I'll help build over christmas break, tell me when, where and what.

fuzzycatnuts

08-11-2008, 03:36 PM

If you can show me anything local that has went from bootleg to legit please do. If you can do that then please show where that happened where the people didn't put in the effort to get it done.

Post Canyon in Hood river, P.A., Black Rock, the NorthShore if you count that as local. I dont think he was saying its not gong to take any effort.

trailhacker

08-11-2008, 04:03 PM

Post Canyon in Hood river, P.A., Black Rock, the NorthShore if you count that as local. I dont think he was saying its not gong to take any effort.

The only place I would truly consider local (on that list) would be PA. BUT, PA might have been through a phase where they were asked to slow down or stop, but it was never really bootleg. If you go back to the MacDougals (McDougals?) putting on races there starting in '95 or '96, they had permission to be there. Not saying that later people (CN, MJ, JM, etc) didn't push the envelope and get reigned back in some, but the end result is after much hard work they have what people want.
The shore is about the same time distance but dealing with CA law and liabilities is so different its hard to inlcude them. But they have set some ground work that can be used to help the lond owners understand what is sustainable and what might appear to be very dangerous on the surface isn't really quite tame.

I take from SP's posts that he and a lot of builders are not interested in putting forth that type of effort. And thats fine but why crash the party of those that are?
Some of the points made are valid but I disagree on the whole "pushing the advances for the benefit of the whole" argument.

But the real point is still there is a GREAT OPPORTUNITY to build what was thought not possible not so many years ago. And nobody seems to be stepping up.
Personally, I have burned out on most of the building for the very reason SP stated. So I guess I really have no dog in this fight.

SeaPig

08-12-2008, 12:39 AM

This is a much better conversation, IMHO. I'll never claim that I am always write. I agree with those who have found holes in my argument. I watched for many pages of this forum as the two factions of our community talked at each other. Now I hear us talking to each other, even if we don't always agree.

SeaPig

08-12-2008, 12:48 AM

This is what I would like to see happen with that area.

Securitas is the security guards for that area who gave out wrong information to the builders.

You're right. I was trying to remember why I thought the land was King County. Not that it would make a huge difference, but it is a difference. They told me and my wife when we were riding XC, something like it was timber land given to the County for some up coming development.

SeaPig

08-12-2008, 12:55 AM

ThomRandolph

08-12-2008, 01:04 AM

SeaPig: you hit the nail right on my head, man. Sadly, I don't speak much of that language, and that's why I need people to step up.

Hopefully my original post was clear that I was shocked and saddened by what the Church had done. And that it looked to me like they had done more damage than the builders/riders had. And yeah, I about cried when I saw what had been done to the trails. I made it pretty clear to them that although they might have legally been in the right to do take them down, morally they had done a lot of hurt to a lot of people. Most of them realize that, I believe. But like the MTB community, they have a few "hammerheads" in their posse too.

I'm not interested in a right/wrong thing here, just a moving forward thing. If anybody imagines I somehow think they were wrong for having a hand in it, forget it. If you had a hand and you want to continue with that, I want you in these talks. If you didn't have a hand in it and you want a hand in it, I also want you in these talks. I'm not into blame-fests and pity-parties.