SHOWA Fork?

[ONTHELEVEL]

I saw this on TractionMag (http://tractionmag.blogspot.com/), anyone know what the deal is with this. I did a search and got a bunch of Japanese sites and well, I don't speak Japanese and the online translator fouled it all up.

[JiveFoolSucka]

Here is a pic, I think they are saying that there is no real info at the moment. Its a lookin good though....

[Transcend]

For what it's worth, both riders mentioned were honda development team riders.

[ArthurDH]

standard 20mm front hub?

[gemini2k]

Do we really need another ultra high performance, ultra limited run, ultra expensive, and hard to work on fork? Or a fork that works well, is reliable, easy to work on and doesn't cost 1500+ for 100 bucks in machined and cast parts? Just a thought......

[jonKranked]

Do we really need another ultra high performance, ultra limited run, ultra expensive, and hard to work on fork? Or a fork that works well, is reliable, easy to work on and doesn't cost 1500+ for 100 bucks in machined and cast parts? Just a thought......

yes. yes we do.

[gemini2k]

http://www.spinner-usa.com/e/freeride-ammo01.htm p.s., bounced on one of the today, feels better than my 55 tst2 (not that the 55 is a stellar fork). Oh ya, retail is like 200.........suspension aint rocket science people

[Transcend]

http://www.spinner-usa.com/e/freeride-ammo01.htm p.s., bounced on one of the today, feels better than my 55 tst2 (not that the 55 is a stellar fork). Oh ya, retail is like 200.........suspension aint rocket science people

Tell that to the works depts at major moto and offroad racing suspension developers.

[gemini2k]

LoL. I will. Have you ever opened up high end forks? Pretty simple stuff as far as science/engineering go. Certainly simpler than say....an internal combustion engine or any number of parts in a car or something

[Hacktastic]

Tell that to the works depts at major moto and offroad racing suspension developers.

They will admit it quite readily actually. Not at all rocket science either. Just simple fluid dynamics. Someone with two years of engineering school could 100% comprehend the most intricate types of suspension and improve upon it, and they routinely do.

[JiveFoolSucka]

We need as many options as possible, it help grows the sport and create new tech that we can benefit from. I love it!

[Pbody]

Sweet! Looks like all that R&D didn't go to waste afterall. With the production activity and overhead that Showa already has in motorcycles, autos, and boats, especially motocross, getting forks produced at a low cost could mean a lot of good news for our industry. I would like to assume that every neighborhood motorcycle dealer who is capable of rebuilding my motocross forks will be able to do the same on my mountainbike forks, thus making me a happy cyclist.

[Transcend]

They will admit it quite readily actually. Not at all rocket science either. Just simple fluid dynamics. Someone with two years of engineering school could 100% comprehend the most intricate types of suspension and improve upon it, and they routinely do.

Sure, they can. Getting it to do what you want however, is not as easy as comprehending the theory behind it. Otherwise, we'd already have "the perfect" suspension and the companies behind it wouldn't be blowing millions on it every year.

[gemini2k]

They will admit it quite readily actually. Not at all rocket science either. Just simple fluid dynamics. Someone with two years of engineering school could 100% comprehend the most intricate types of suspension and improve upon it, and they routinely do.

exactly, why am I, with NO formal training in mechanical engineering able to modify my $900 marzocchi fork and fix simple, but not negliable problems with it, and improve the overall performance, and understand everything I'm doing (and the "theory"). Oh ya, and I never opened up the fork before, and it took me maybe hour from start to finish? And I'm not incredible mechanically adept.

[Hacktastic]

getting forks produced at a low cost could mean a lot of good news for our industry.

And what makes you think they have a low cost in mind?

[gemini2k]

Also, i doubt they blow millions of dollars on it for reasons beyond pure scientific curiosity. Small competitive advantages lead to huge sales and pricing advantages in an industry of fools like us who will spend tons of money for (almost) meaningless improvements.

[Hacktastic]

Sure, they can. Getting it to do what you want however, is not as easy as comprehending the theory behind it. Otherwise, we'd already have "the perfect" suspension and the companies behind it wouldn't be blowing millions on it every year.

That is why it's 90% R&D, not rocket science.

[ChrisKring]

If it's so easy to set up suspension for the highest level of racer then moto works forks wouldn't be worth $50k. The lead Honda bike designer had a mechanic and a suspension engineer with him at the Master's in '05. Why if it's so easy?

Anyway, any fork from Showa will be outside the price range that most cheap DH racers will pay. Their moto "kit suspension" part to upgrade the factory original internals are $3k+ alone.

So if you consider "improving performance" changing fluid, yes a monkey could do it. If you spent an hour "improving" your fork, I doubt you even cleaned it good. Let alone, cleaning up the ports.

[yuroshek]

hey i wouldnt mind havein a showa fork on my DH rig. my cousin use to race pro and had showa on his factory rig. some of the best suspension right there boy.

[jcook90]

Take the guy who made the rear shock for the Millyard bike, some brilliant tank suspension engineer who probably built something in a day that supposedly blows any current rear shocks out of the water. Bike industry needs some of those

[Hacktastic]

If it's so easy to set up suspension for the highest level of racer then moto works forks wouldn't be worth $50k. The lead Honda bike designer had a mechanic and a suspension engineer with him at the Master's in '05. Why if it's so easy?

Anyway, any fork from Showa will be outside the price range that most cheap DH racers will pay. Their moto "kit suspension" part to upgrade the factory original internals are $3k+ alone.

So if you consider "improving performance" changing fluid, yes a monkey could do it. If you spent an hour "improving" your fork, I doubt you even cleaned it good. Let alone, cleaning up the ports.

Because it is time consuming? And maybe because a race support team needs to be already familiar with all facets of the race vehicle and able to make fast modifications/rebuilds at the scene of a race? Moto's are vastly more complex than a mountain bike with the addition of the thing called "an engine", which could occupy a head mechanic by itself and probably does.

I agree on the price. I don't expect that to be priced out for widespread use as much as another novelty item such as BOS or the Foes fork.

I consider a thorough basic improvement to be at least: changing the oil, seals, bushings, and o-rings if needed, teflon/grease coating everything where applicable, CLEANING/FLUSHING (hell, put it in an ultrasound machine overnight if you have access to one), re-shimming or re-porting the piston head, resetting air chamber size, replacing spring valve springs or using a different weight if needed, deburring/porting everything where needed, and finally, testing for cavitation if the situation would call for it. Fortunately with the resources available to the mechanically inclined consumer, all of this is quickly becoming more feasible these days. That's the basic stuff, and the higher end moto stuff is really just a detailed expansion upon that. Some of the more recent stuff in the moto world is genuinely innovative though and it will be REALLY cool to see some of it trickle down to MTB suspension.

[top_dog]

Personally I reckon a fork with a decent damper is more complex than most machines, there is a lot going on in them. And BOS isn't really a novelty; they've been building DH suspension for about 15 years.:lighten:

[dropmachine.com]

If it's so easy to set up suspension for the highest level of racer then moto works forks wouldn't be worth $50k. The lead Honda bike designer had a mechanic and a suspension engineer with him at the Master's in '05. Why if it's so easy?


Just wanted to point out that there are sport racers on 10k DH bikes, racing for mid pack finishes. Just because money is spent, doesn't mean its required or necessary. ;)

Not agreeing the with the point or disagreeing, just saying.

[djamgils]

improving the performance of a machine is exponentially more expensive. To improve a 10K fork is easier(less expensive) then improving a 50K fork. And if it means the difference between first or second place then it could be worth it.

[Ithnu]

That is why it's 90% R&D, not rocket science.

Rocket science involves a lot of testing too, there's just a lot more money and explosives involved!

I think the biggest hindrance to suspension engineering for bikes is there isn't near as much money in it as cars or motorcycles. My friend works at Hayes and they don't have that many engineers compared to lets say BMW.

[Pbody]

And what makes you think they have a low cost in mind?

Like I mentioned, with the production activity and overhead they already have, it would be a pretty safe assumption they could move right into MTB production without a lot of upfront investment dollars, aka costs.

I did say cost, not price. Any entity would want to produce at low cost in order to maximize profit.

[Wobbler]

Take the guy who made the rear shock for the Millyard bike, some brilliant tank suspension engineer who probably built something in a day that supposedly blows any current rear shocks out of the water. Bike industry needs some of those

Yeah I'm sure he built that shock in a day :disgust::clapping::disgust1:

[Windowlicker]

im almost positive that any company would love the free hype and discussion that everyone is giving them.

[ire]

Take the guy who made the rear shock for the Millyard bike, some brilliant tank suspension engineer who probably built something in a day that supposedly blows any current rear shocks out of the water. Bike industry needs some of those

:plthumbsdown:

You're making some big assumptions there.

[Yeti]

Take the guy who made the rear shock for the Millyard bike, some brilliant tank suspension engineer who probably built something in a day that supposedly blows any current rear shocks out of the water. Bike industry needs some of those

Yeah...that guy....Alan Millyard. I'm quite sure the development of that shock took him more than a day if not several sleepless nights getting it right. The way you say it :disgust1: ...anyway,still impressive that he pulled it off if one compares it to the bike industry.

[P.T.W]

Yeah...that guy....Alan Millyard. I'm quite sure the development of that shock took him more than a day if not several sleepless nights getting it right. The way you say it :disgust1: ...anyway,still impressive that he pulled it off if one compares it to the bike industry.

That Millyard bike is one of the most over hyped bikes around....Yes its different,yes the guy that made it has done a good job.
Just what is so ground breaking about it??????

[FreeRide-Junkie]

That Millyard bike is one of the most over hyped bikes around....Yes its different,yes the guy that made it has done a good job.
Just what is so ground breaking about it??????

The shock and the drivetrain. It's silent and its totally sealed.

[Tomac_racer]

I would not be sold on the shock until i have seen pictures of the internals or ridden one. For all we know all that could be in there is a Nitrogen air chamber. That is nothing new at all

[spocomptonrider]

That Millyard bike is one of the most over hyped bikes around....Yes its different,yes the guy that made it has done a good job.
Just what is so ground breaking about it??????

It is sorta over hyped, but there are some cool/good ideas there, Dirt did a test/ once over on it a few months back, plus the new one has a single sided swing arm and folds in half. I like the fact that the drivetrain is completely enclosed, think of a timing chain in a car. Rarely needs replacement because in a closed environment, it is much easier to keep a chain happy and void of any outside muck.

[FR4life.]

The shock and the drivetrain. It's silent and its totally sealed.
Indeed. In my opinion, that's the future of mountain biking. Internal gearing should be standard. conventional drivetrains will always be broken need to be replaced soon enough, and will always make horrible noises. I also have always felt that inverted forks would perform better on bikes given the right design and testing. Significantly less unsprung weight, and if made well, I think an inverted fork could be equally as stiff as top end conventional forks.

[FreeRide-Junkie]

The problem is that to make an really stiff inverted fork I think that you need a redesigned hub. Some manufacturers (take BOS for example) did not want to make consumers buy a new proprietary hub as well to help keep cost down. While it is good to keep cost down, I would hate to see progress hindered because of it. I think if it is truly better, market it. If it's that much better enough people should jump on to drive cost down.... in theory.....

[William42]

The problem is that to make an really stiff inverted fork I think that you need a redesigned hub. Some manufacturers (take BOS for example) did not want to make consumers buy a new proprietary hub as well to help keep cost down. While it is good to keep cost down, I would hate to see progress hindered because of it. I think if it is truly better, market it. If it's that much better enough people should jump on to drive cost down.... in theory.....

BOS is so good that it was able to go back in time and invent non-inverted lowers before anybody else had thought of it, just so people wouldn't have to use proprietary hubs.

BOS built the castle it was born in with its own hands

[FreeRide-Junkie]

BOS is so good that it was able to go back in time and invent non-inverted lowers before anybody else had thought of it, just so people wouldn't have to use proprietary hubs.

BOS built the castle it was born in with its own hands

I wasn't just spewing random sh*t.... If you read on the BOS site it talks about how they initially wanted to make the fork inverted but decided against it so that they could run a standard 20mm front hub. I was just using it as an example. :disgust1:

[JohnnyBoyDH]

If Showa wanted to get really serious about making hi performance DH forks, the other manufacturers would crumble to their knee's in awe.

[no skid marks]

If Showa wanted to get really serious about making hi performance DH forks, the other manufacturers would crumble to their knee's in awe.

Or not. Honda didn't do that great.:popcorn:

[buckoW]

As a team they did have some good results compared to others..........on a single pivot.

[William42]

I wasn't just spewing random sh*t.... If you read on the BOS site it talks about how they initially wanted to make the fork inverted but decided against it so that they could run a standard 20mm front hub. I was just using it as an example. :disgust1:

sorry dude, i'm just messing with you, most forks (RS, marz, fox, manitou all come to mind) usually try and stick with non-inverted lowers for just that reason, bos was just a funny example given that companies have been doing this for years now, didn't mean to piss you off :imstupid:

[dmilkman589]

I saw this on TractionMag (http://tractionmag.blogspot.com/), anyone know what the deal is with this. I did a search and got a bunch of Japanese sites and well, I don't speak Japanese and the online translator fouled it all up.

well showa is a jap brand... they make stuff for dirt bikes. hint hint..any good mortorcycle is jap

[Transcend]

any good mortorcycle is jap

umm, no.

[FreeRide-Junkie]

sorry dude, i'm just messing with you, most forks (RS, marz, fox, manitou all come to mind) usually try and stick with non-inverted lowers for just that reason, bos was just a funny example given that companies have been doing this for years now, didn't mean to piss you off :imstupid:

It's cool. Hard to tell when someone is dead serious or joking at times.

What I was saying though is that people were expecting the BOS to be inverted, and they said if they wanted to play into that hype they may have sold more even than they are going to. (Something along those lines) No telling really. Marzocchi and Manitou have both had inverted forks (manitou is even bringing the Dorado back) but have stayed with a 20mm hub which has probably hurt stiffness. I was just referring to having to run a proprietary hub to make it work really well. That is something that Marzocchi and Manitou have not gone to...

[no skid marks]

Manitou run a hex end to help stiffen up the dildo.

[General Lee]

As a team they did have some good results compared to others..........on a single pivot.


what's your point? pretty much every competitive bike besides the Sunday and Santa Cruz are single pivots. 9 of the past 12 mens world champs have come on single pivots (9 of 10 until Sam won on the Sunday). The majority of world cup podium spots go to single pivots. . . etc, etc.

I'm just curious why some people are so quick to write off single pivot bikes as second rate?