"Bush's War;" tonite on Frontline

[N8]

Starting NOW.... who's in?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

[$tinkle]

antique show here...

[N8]

antique show here...

tune in at the top of the hour for you Mt Timers

[jimmydean]

I thought it started 5 years ago?

[Changleen]

The write up looks good.

http://www.reuters.com/article/televisionNews/idUSN2429945320080325

[jimmydean]

So I watched part one and thought it was interesting. Really nothing I haven't heard before from a variety of sources.

So n8, what do you feel watching something like this? Seeing GWB and Uncle Dick rush to war on manufactured documents despite the recommendation of Powell (the only guy who made sense). Seeing Dick turn the CIA into a PR firm for the cause rather than an agency of intelligence.

Do you still come away with the feeling of support and admiration for this administration? Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy knowing you helped and supported this group?

I get pissed. I have a tough time watching things like this because it makes me question what I fought for, why I spent 11 years in the military working toward what I thought was a common good.

[N8]

So I watched part one and thought it was interesting. Really nothing I haven't heard before from a variety of sources.

So n8, what do you feel watching something like this? Seeing GWB and Uncle Dick rush to war on manufactured documents despite the recommendation of Powell (the only guy who made sense). Seeing Dick turn the CIA into a PR firm for the cause rather than an agency of intelligence.

Do you still come away with the feeling of support and admiration for this administration? Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy knowing you helped and supported this group?

I get pissed. I have a tough time watching things like this because it makes me question what I fought for, why I spent 11 years in the military working toward what I thought was a common good.


i think history will show that eliminating Saddam and establishing a large US presence in the middle east to be a good thing.

also pretty sure any US president would have done the same given the same circumstances.

[jimmydean]

i think history will show that eliminating Saddam and establishing a large US presence in the middle east to be a good thing.

also pretty sure any US president would have done the same given the same circumstances.

So even though he was a dick, but wasn't a threat, it was ok? Even though we basically lost everything we worked for in Afghanistan to rush into Iraq under false pretenses, it was still worth it?

Wow.

[Secret Squirrel]

i think history will show that eliminating Saddam and establishing a large US presence in the middle east to be a good thing.

also pretty sure any US president would have done the same given the same circumstances.

Any US president would've outright lied and not admitted wrongdoing in the face of facts.
Any US president would've completely & utterly disregarded common sense and forged ahead with something so harebrained that even an ostrich would question.
Any administration would've just taken a massive dump on the American people because it served them better.

Yeah.


"Imagine all the people..."

[Secret Squirrel]

So let's recap:

Lying = Fine
Cheating = Fine
Stealing = Fine
Fundamentalism = Fine


Remind me again how we're differentiating ourselves from "the enemy"....?? Really, I'd like to know.

[N8]

So let's recap:

Lying = Fine
Cheating = Fine
Stealing = Fine
Fundamentalism = Fine


Remind me again how we're differentiating ourselves from "the enemy"....?? Really, I'd like to know.

burkas?

:p

[jimmydean]

So what about China being a dick to Tibet?

Oh wait, there is no oil in Tibet. :disgust1:

[N8]

So what about China being a dick to Tibet?

Oh wait, there is no oil in Tibet. :disgust1:

i am boycotting the Olympics there this summer ok? sheesh...

[DaveW]

So let's recap:

Lying = Fine
Cheating = Fine
Stealing = Fine
Fundamentalism = Fine


Remind me again how we're differentiating ourselves from "the enemy"....?? Really, I'd like to know.

Well if you ignore yesterdays efforts
US cargo ship shoots hawkers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7311992.stm)
US air strike kills 'Iraq allies' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7309292.stm)

I'd have said the difference is you don't go round shooting and bombing innocent people at random. :twitch:

[jimmydean]

Well if you ignore yesterdays efforts
US cargo ship shoots hawkers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7311992.stm)
US air strike kills 'Iraq allies' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7309292.stm)

I'd have said the difference is you don't go round shooting and bombing innocent people at random. :twitch:

Where is the fun in that? Sheesh.

[jimmydean]

As for last nights show, I think history will show this administration and its war in Iraq was more than just a bad idea. I fail to see how time will change that perspective.

[N8]

Well if you ignore yesterdays efforts
US cargo ship shoots hawkers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7311992.stm)

I'd have said the difference is you don't go round shooting and bombing innocent people at random. :twitch:

Selective amnesia?

1. It was after sunset on Monday when a motorboat carrying three local Egyptian traders approached the Global Patriot in the Gulf of Suez as it prepared to sail towards the Mediterranean, according to Egyptian officials.

2. the boats were "warned by a native Arabic speaker using a bullhorn to warn them to turn away. A warning flare was then fired."

3. "One small boat continued to approach the ship and received two sets of warning shots 20-30 metres in front of the bow. All shots were accounted for as they entered the water." "These were tracer bullets, they can actually see the warning shots go out and 20 metres in front of the [Egyptian] ship is quite a way,"

[antm]

i am boycotting the Olympics there this summer ok? sheesh...

Why is it that everytime you get cornered and cant talk yourself out of something so obviously wrong you tend to make a joke. I for one cant believe you still support this administration. I used to be a Republican (key word: used). However, now I am ashamed at what this party has done. It is sad and embarrassing. It's amazing how some people refuse to think for themselves and instead just follow the leader by the pure basis of what party he belongs to. I am sure you have read all the facts, yet you continually cut and paste points which, in your eyes, defends the POTUS. It really is sad.

[N8]

Why is it that everytime you get cornered and cant talk yourself out of something so obviously wrong you tend to make a joke. I for one cant believe you still support this administration. I used to be a Republican (key word: used). However, now I am ashamed at what this party has done. It is sad and embarrassing. It's amazing how some people refuse to think for themselves and instead just follow the leader by the pure basis of what party he belongs to. I am sure you have read all the facts, yet you continually cut and paste points which, in your eyes, defends the POTUS. It really is sad.

So.. you are a Ron Paul voter then..?

[jimmydean]

Why is it that everytime you get cornered and cant talk yourself out of something so obviously wrong you tend to make a joke. I for one cant believe you still support this administration. I used to be a Republican (key word: used). However, now I am ashamed at what this party has done. It is sad and embarrassing. It's amazing how some people refuse to think for themselves and instead just follow the leader by the pure basis of what party he belongs to. I am sure you have read all the facts, yet you continually cut and paste points which, in your eyes, defends the POTUS. It really is sad.

:clapping:

My wife voted for Bush in 2000 and learned a lot that first term. She can't even watch stuff like this show because she gets so angry over military issues. She has a hard time even admitting that she voted for him the first time.

<edit> n8 is a "stay the course" guy, regardless of the cliff it leads to.

[antm]

So.. you are a Ron Paul voter then..?

Like I said...

[$tinkle]

So what about China being a dick to Tibet?

Oh wait, there is no oil in Tibet. :disgust1:can't really start a trade war right now...they've got a stranglehold on our yambag.

[ohio]

can't really start a trade war right now...they've got a stranglehold on our yambag.

It's old purple-nurple / twisted-teste standoff. No fun for anyone but the spectators.

[N8]

Like I said...

come on, just admit you are a Ron Pauler..

[jimmydean]

Like I said...

n8 just wants to show he's not the only idiot.


As if voting for Ron Paul would prove to be as stupid as supporting GWB for 8 years. :rolleyes:

[antm]

come on, just admit you are a Ron Pauler..


Nah, no Ron Pauler. I am not too fond of the three potential POTUS. I certainly wouldn't vote McCain for a variety of reasons. It certainly doesn't look promising.

[N8]

Nah, no Ron Pauler. I am not too fond of the three potential POTUS. I certainly wouldn't vote McCain for a variety of reasons. It certainly doesn't look promising.

well, i agree with you on that point.

:)

[MikeD]

Missed part I...might try and catch it online prior to part II coming on... Anyone know if it's re-running anytime soon?

[N8]

Missed part I...might try and catch it online prior to part II coming on... Anyone know if it's re-running anytime soon?

i think you can watch the whole thing online at the link i provided in the first post

[MikeD]

Yeah, that's why I wanted to know if it was re-running...rather watch it on TV, but'll do it online if I have to.

[jimmydean]

Looked like only part 1 was online, but I only glanced.

[r464]

Replaying tonight and Saturday here...

[$tinkle]

watched part one online

[N8]

Part 2 is on this eve at 8PM Central...

[MikeD]

Hmmm, part I doesn't delve too deeply into exactly why there was a push towards Iraq from the beginning. That's the part that interests me...we know that there was...I want to hear what the rationales were. If it's a simple matter of being a state sponsor of terrorism, there are far more obvious and lucrative targets.

Edit: Series as a whole is more descriptive than analytical; very reminiscent of a televisation of Ricks' Fiasco.

[DaveW]

It's old purple-nurple / twisted-teste standoff. No fun for anyone but the spectators.

:popcorn: We wish to be entertained. :wave:

[$tinkle]

Hmmm, part I doesn't delve too deeply into exactly why there was a push towards Iraq from the beginning. before "the beginning", we should look back only a few years before:


(1) On September 22, 1980, Iraq invaded Iran, starting an 8 year war in which Iraq employed chemical weapons against Iranian troops and ballistic missiles against Iranian cities.

(2) In February 1988, Iraq forcibly relocated Kurdish civilians from their home villages in the Anfal campaign, killing an estimated 50,000 to 180,000 Kurds.

(3) On March 16, 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurdish civilian opponents in the town of Halabja, killing an estimated 5,000 Kurds and causing numerous birth defects that affect the town today.

(4) On August 2, 1990, Iraq invaded and began a 7 month occupation of Kuwait, killing and committing numerous abuses against Kuwaiti civilians, and setting Kuwait's oil wells ablaze upon retreat.

(5) Hostilities in Operation Desert Storm ended on February 28, 1991, and Iraq subsequently accepted the ceasefire conditions specified in United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (April 3, 1991) requiring Iraq, among other things, to disclose fully and permit the dismantlement of its weapons of mass destruction programs and submit to long-term monitoring and verification of such dismantlement.

(6) In April 1993, Iraq orchestrated a failed plot to assassinate former President George Bush during his April 14-16, 1993, visit to Kuwait.

(7) In October 1994, Iraq moved 80,000 troops to areas near the border with Kuwait, posing an imminent threat of a renewed invasion of or attack against Kuwait.

(8) On August 31, 1996, Iraq suppressed many of its opponents by helping one Kurdish faction capture Irbil, the seat of the Kurdish regional government.

(9) Since March 1996, Iraq has systematically sought to deny weapons inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) access to key facilities and documents, has on several occasions endangered the safe operation of UNSCOM helicopters transporting UNSCOM personnel in Iraq, and has persisted in a pattern of deception and concealment regarding the history of its weapons of mass destruction programs.

(10) On August 5, 1998, Iraq ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM, and subsequently threatened to end long-term monitoring activities by the International Atomic Energy Agency and UNSCOM.

(11) On August 14, 1998, President Clinton signed Public Law 105-235, which declared that `the Government of Iraq is in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations' and urged the President `to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations.'.

(12) On May 1, 1998, President Clinton signed Public Law 105-174, which made $5,000,000 available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition for such activities as organization, training, communication and dissemination of information, developing and implementing agreements among opposition groups, compiling information to support the indictment of Iraqi officials for war crimes, and for related purposes.

[N8]

..facts... lots of facts...

and here I though Iraq was "just riding along..."

:shocked:

[jimmydean]

and here I though Iraq was "just riding along..."

:shocked:

Also:
Cheney's Halliburton stock options rose 3,281%

http://rawstory.com/images/other/halliburtongraph.gif

Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) asserts that Cheney's options -- worth $241,498 in '03 -- are now valued at more than $8 million.

<edit>Cheney continues to received a deferred salary from the company. According to financial disclosure forms, he was paid $205,298 in 2001; $262,392 in 2002; $278,437 in 2003; and $294,852 in 2004.

[$tinkle]

and another war profiteer bought 2 million shares:
Guess who? (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/3776)

[DaveW]

before "the beginning", we should look back only a few years before:

(1) On September 22, 1980, Iraq invaded Iran, starting an 8 year war in which Iraq employed chemical weapons against Iranian troops and ballistic missiles against Iranian cities.

(2) In February 1988, Iraq forcibly relocated Kurdish civilians from their home villages in the Anfal campaign, killing an estimated 50,000 to 180,000 Kurds.

(3) On March 16, 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurdish civilian opponents in the town of Halabja, killing an estimated 5,000 Kurds and causing numerous birth defects that affect the town today.

Of course for these first three (revolting as they are) you should ad below each "With the US government cheering them on" :busted:

[ire]

Of course for these first three (revolting as they are) you should ad below each "With the US government cheering them on" :busted:

and providing them money. Remember, we hated Iran more than anyone. This wasn't long after the embassy crisis.

I watched part 2 last night and I found it interesting that Rumsfield was trying to get our troops out of Iraq; that’s why they employed the minimum footprint idea and pulled our troops back to their main bases. Not that the strategy worked for Iraq, but if he would have stayed in charge maybe our troops would be coming home sooner.

[MikeD]

Which all brings up the point that the "decider" sure didn't provide much leadership as the cabinet level and below became a disgusting mess of infighting and contradictory goals and methods.

[N8]

Funny how Congress wasn't involved in any of this...


:p

[$tinkle]

you mean to tell us the senate armed services committee, foreign relations committee, and select intelligence committees don't just have bake sales?

[jimmydean]

Which all brings up the point that the "decider" sure didn't provide much leadership as the cabinet level and below became a disgusting mess of infighting and contradictory goals and methods.

That combined with Powell being the only one with ACTUAL military experience wasn't allowed to handle it.

Ego is a bitch.

[N8]

i blame Bushdaddy for not allowing Stormin' Norman to drive straight into Baghdad and force Iraq's surrender and Saddam's capture at the conclusion of GulfWar 1

[MikeD]

Except that would have been stupid to do at the time. Even Cheny predicted something equivalent to the current situation if we'd have done that...

The only real strategy for 'dealing with' Iraq, inasmuch as we really *had* anything to deal with, was to use diplomacy and covert action to shape the country, long-term, with anti-Saddam activity and plans for his succession, whether by coup, rebellion, or his natural (seeming?) death. And to focus our military assets on where they could actually be most valuable.

[DaveW]

Funny how Congress wasn't involved in any of this...


:p

As I recall every time they did object in any way, there were howls of outrage from the neocon's/media/public about them not supporting the troops.......... :twitch::clapping:

[Echo]

(12) On May 1, 1998, President Clinton signed Public Law 105-174, which made $5,000,000 available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition for such activities as organization, training, communication and dissemination of information, developing and implementing agreements among opposition groups, compiling information to support the indictment of Iraqi officials for war crimes, and for related purposes. [/i]
Too bad they didn't stick with that budget.

[Westy]

Which all brings up the point that the "decider" sure didn't provide much leadership as the cabinet level and below became a disgusting mess of infighting and contradictory goals and methods.


To Bush's defence he changed the presidency from the Executive branch to dhe Decidectutive branch. He thought the CIA would take care of the execution part.

[DaveW]

Seems not everyone is happy with frontline's show.

Frontline: Too Timid, Too Little, Too Late

By Ray McGovern (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19619.htm)

Although without having seen the show I couldn't really say either way. *shrugs*

[H8R]

i blame Bushdaddy for not allowing Stormin' Norman to drive straight into Baghdad and force Iraq's surrender and Saddam's capture at the conclusion of GulfWar 1

Every time I think you've hit the ceiling, you throttle up to a whole other altitude of stupid.

[H8R]

and another war profiteer bought 2 million shares:
Guess who? (http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/3776)

An unethical billionaire??!!

*gasp*