spec my new PC

[narlus]

i need a new computer. PC, not mac, so Jobsites need not type.

not sure if i want to build it myself, or go w/ a barebones system...kinda leaning towards the latter. would also prefer to stay w/ XP pro rather than windows (and i can reinstall my existing OS if need be).

user requirements:

something fast. i want photoshop to scream. currently my CPU/RAM combo could be faster (AMD 64 |3000+ ATHLON 939P + 2GB of RAM).

i don't need the following:

cdr/dvdr
video card
monitor
keyboard/mouse

i also have a bunch of hard drives; 3 internal and 3 external. i'd want a case which can accomodate at least 4 SATA devices (my cdr is SATA, and i'd likely use one of my existing internal drives as a dedicated scratch drive for PS).

one question is should i go w/ some sort of dedicated RAID server? between my music and photos, i have a lot of data, and as the two recent HD failures have highlighted, you can never be too safe. i will continue to do my DVD backups.

unleash your inner geek and start spouting recommendations.

:nerd:

[syadasti]

eSATA can help with your storage needs for relatively cheap, fast with RAID. If you get a decent eSATA enclosure with port multiplier you could have a nice fat RAID5 storage setup. It might be easier to buy the sonnettech solution as they have a card and enclosure system but I don't know you necessarily need their card as I think all that is required is port multiplier support (check with Sonnet)...

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempo_sata_e4p.html

http://www.provantage.com/sonnet-tsataii-e4p~7SONT04X.htm

MUCH cheaper eSATA card with port multiplier support:

http://www.iogear.com/product/GICe702S3R5W6/

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815290002

The Dell XPS 420 has a BTX x38 motherboard (X38 is the prosumer Intel chipset - only thing better are the professional chipsets made for the Xeon lines) with PCIe 16X, 8X, and 1X plus 5 SATA ports (I don't know if that includes the 1 external eSATA port it has which I am pretty sure supports port multipliers too or is in addition). You could buy a refurb Dell 420 and spec as needed but you'd have to check out the internal drive bay configuration if you are wanting to run lots of internal drives vs. an enclosure:

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/xps420/en/OM/HTML/parts.htm#wp1402834

[syadasti]

Here is a bare sonnet eSATA enclosure:

http://www.provantage.com/sonnet-fus-d5p-00tb~7SONT06F.htm

Figure about $100 each for 500GB drives - less if you don't need that much storage...

[syadasti]

Looks like there are more offerings in the eSATA space now - this looks like a great package for the money:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817332017

In case you were wondering the AMS store/newegg link was out of date, new firmware does RAID5 via bios update:

http://www.amselectronics.com/support/download_DD_DS2350S.html

[blue]

This board:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131219
ASUS P5E LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard

This CPU (I should've bought it instead of the Core 2 Duo in my box):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115017
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor

This RAM (rocks. cheap. rocks hard?), maybe x2 if you go with XP 64?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211188
A-DATA 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

this case:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811294001
ABS Aplus ABS-Black Pearl Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Computer Case

I vote yes for dedicated RAID server.

Build your own...you can use much higher quality stuff than a crap Dell box.

[syadasti]

It helps to actually read and understand what Narlus mentioned he wants.

Quad Core sucks as most applications are not optimized for it[or multicore period] (http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2008/01/intel_blog_warn.html) and neither is XP.

The available next generation Wolfsdale Core 2 Duo CPU at 3 GHz run circles around the first generation psuedo 2.4 GHz Quad Core Core 2 Duo[its really just two Core 2 Duos tacked together to be first to market, its not a true quad core design] (http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=873&model2=871&chart=437) it especially when applications are optimized for Wolfdale's new SSE4 architecture which will happen much sooner than when most OS functions and software are better optimized for multicore CPUs. There is no reason to buy a Quad Core for what he wants right now at the pricepoint. If it was the prior generation Conroe optimized multi-thread CS3 stuff would only run on average 25% faster at the same clock which is about what you'd see from the Wolfdale from the architecture update prior at the same clock to software optimization for new SSE4 features so even if the Wolfdale was 2.4 GHz the call might be tough unless the filter he used worked better on quad core significantly more than usual.

The "Crap" Dell 420 box has the same prosumer X38 chipset which supports the same features other than Crossfire (it has 16X and 8X instead) with dual ATI GPUs which he has expressed no need for. It also comes with 375 or 425 watt PSU both which are more than adequate for what he wants to do even if he buys a mid range GPU like a 8800GT (which is only slightly faster than the new budget and very lower power 9600). You can get an adequate 420 refurb starting at $730 for Q6600 or more for 3GHz Conroe E6850 - maybe then you could consider the Q6600 with that comparison and you go complete at a Budget - it will save you money:

Please build a complete with these spec for $800 cause that what you can get at that pricepoint from Dell Outlet:

-Q6600
-X38 Motherboard
-Windows Vista Home Premium
-4GB
-750GB HDD
-128MB ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO
-16X DVD +/- RW w/DL
-Multimedia Keyboard and optical mouse
-19 in 1 Media Card Reader
-1Yr In-Home Service for Parts + Labor and 24x7 Phone Support (on all new and refurbs)

A eSATA RAID enclosure is much cheaper than buying two computers - a workstation and RAID server. The eSATA enclosure would give far superior direct file vs. networked system performance to two computers networked at a far lower cost.

[Toshi]

i need a new computer. PC, not mac, so Jobsites need not type.

:(

345

[H8R]

Give me a few....

[H8R]

Case:
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129018)
http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-129-018-09.jpg

Combo deal with an Antec triple rail 550w PSU: (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371002)
$140

Core 2 Duo E6750 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115029)
$189.99

ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127030)
$135 after rebate

Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146565)
$35 after rebate ($70 for 4GB)

BUFFALO 1TB LinkStation Pro Duo NAS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822165075)
Expandable via USB drives.
$308.99
http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/22-165-075-05.jpg

[H8R]

Please wait for BV and a few others to chime in and bless this.

:D

[Changleen]

I still think Vista is basically bloody annoying. It has a few nice features, whose benefits are drastically outweighed but its sheer bloatedness and frankly patronising approach to the user.

[syadasti]

That NAS would be dead slow compare to using a eSATA enclosure and he could do the same with the AMS eSATA enclosure above for $100 extra which probably works with that MB (would have to check for port multiplier support) and it has hot swappable drives. If he's going to build a PC he should go E8400 Wolfdale...

[syadasti]

I still think Vista is basically bloody annoying. It has a few nice features, whose benefits are drastically outweighed but its sheer bloatedness and frankly patronising approach to the user.

OSX 10.5 would be a better choice right now if he wants to take advantage of 64-bit and multi threaded features of the new CPU in professional photo editing or audio oriented applications vs. XP Pro. Plus its a PC anyways, he can load XP dual boot or maybe something like VM fusion(which still works pretty decent compared to dual boot for most things). Only disadvantage for him would be cost premium and no way to build one yourself legally/easily. He can still add eSATA for real cheap.

[narlus]

:(

345

sorry man...i've seen the ads....i'm just not cool enough to join the iRanks.

josh, thanks for the info...i'll do a bit more digging/research this weekend.

for setting up RAID, is that pretty simple?

[Transcend]

That NAS would be dead slow compare to using a eSATA enclosure and he could do the same with the AMS eSATA enclosure above for $100 extra which probably works with that MB (would have to check for port multiplier support) and it has hot swappable drives. If he's going to build a PC he should go E8400 Wolfdale...

Only the eSATA enclosure has to be connected to your computer directly, huge disadvantage for someone like me. I need to have it's contents accessible to my entire network. (Photos to laptops and desktop, movies and audio accessible to my 360).

I want esata speed with NAS useability. My esata external is great for moving huge files in a hurry on my mac pro. It lacks the ability to hot swap though, which makes me a sad panda.

[syadasti]

for setting up RAID, is that pretty simple?

Yeah you just use a utility to configure the RAID. RAID 5 is best bang for buck. You need a minimum of three disks. RAID 10 would perform better for writes but would have less capacity. If you buy five drives for the RAID 10 you could use one as a hotswap for failure.

You could use the RAID as your boot volume, but you'd probably bet better off using one or two HDDs internally in the PC for OS.

Some newer RAID controllers you can mix and match disks but its best to use all the same exact HDDs.

[syadasti]

Only the eSATA enclosure has to be connected to your computer directly, huge disadvantage for someone like me. I need to have it's contents accessible to my entire network. (Photos to laptops and desktop, movies and audio accessible to my 360)

SAMBA, gigabit ethernet, gigabit router then if you are accessing it from another device - most things can access SAMBA shares. Use dual gigabit NIC with teaming with the eSATA setup to gain advantage over any gigabit NAS that only has a single NIC (probably all NAS)...

[Transcend]

SAMBA, gigabit ethernet, gigabit router then if you are accessing it from another device - most things can access SAMBA shares...

Leaving an 8 core mac pro running at all times is not my idea of a good investment in my powerbill. It is off unless I am working on it, and spend the rest of my time on my laptop on the sofa.

I am running Gigabit ethernet as it is, and get decent speeds, but eSATA is quite clearly a million times faster. I routinely have to transfer 25gb + folders of photos back and forth. It's extremely fun when i get home from a trip and have to dump an 80gb usb2 travel drive.

Edit: Bonjour takes care of sharing now anyways, no need to screw with samba shares. Even my Xbox can read from the NAS (formatted HFS+) if any of my machines is on with connect360 running.

[syadasti]

Leaving an 8 core mac pro running at all times is not my idea of a good investment in my powerbill. It is off unless I am working on it, and spend the rest of my time on my laptop on the sofa.

Doesn't the Mac support Wake on LAN/Enhanced Intel Speedstep® Technology/etc. You enable speedstep and sleep the computer after X minutes/hours on inactivity then (or on command only).

I've been using Speedstep and AMD's equal for years now. I have no need for WoL but I sleep or hiberate my computer whenever I'm not using it.

[syadasti]

Also you can buy an expresscard eSATA card pretty cheap for you Macbook and just hook up the eSATA RAID (has the same chip as the RAID enclosure so I assume it supports port multiplier, would have to email SIIG for certain) or single drive enclosures:

http://www.siig.com/ViewProductList.aspx?catid=250

[binary visions]

It's still jumping through hoops. You'd have to boot up the Mac Pro every time you wanted to access the drive, then let it sleep again. Or, you'd have to physically locate yourself at the eSATA stack every time.

If you need access across your whole network to your storage, a NAS is the way to go.

Tim, if you have some of your own parts and don't need an OS license, building it yourself will get you higher quality parts for less money. If you don't want to deal with building it, though, or if you want some spare parts for a possible future build you can get a Dell for not much money.

Kinda your choice there.

If you build, I would keep your Antec case as well. That's a pretty good case, I'm a little sad that I lost mine.

I don't see anything wrong with H8R's recommendations except that RAM. Come on now, let's step it up and go with 4GB.

This stuff hits those same good timings at a little less voltage, too:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145194

[H8R]

I don't see anything wrong with H8R's recommendations except that RAM. Come on now, let's step it up and go with 4GB.


That was the suggestion, albeit 4 sticks, which was dumb of me.


I also suggested the NAS for storage, not for blazing access. He could build a new PC for Photoshop and pic processing, (with RAID on board) and re-build the Athlon box one as a jukebox/kid's machine. (Ubuntu would be PERFECT for this btw)

Both could access the NAS for storage/backup. That Buffalo NAS will also act as host to external USB drives for expansion.

[H8R]

BTW, if you already have an XP Pro disk, move it to the new machine.

[Transcend]

It's still jumping through hoops. You'd have to boot up the Mac Pro every time you wanted to access the drive, then let it sleep again. Or, you'd have to physically locate yourself at the eSATA stack every time.


Exactly.

[syadasti]

Speedstep and WOL work just fine and its not a hoop you jump through, its automatic and fast. Waking a computer from sleep takes a couple of seconds. Speedtest is practically instantaneous. On the Mac Pro you can put your dual NIC to good use and team them for best performance - not doing that on consumer NAS.

Most home users don't do much file sharing at home and unless thats a important role to Tim, I don't think it matters.

Businesses have always had dedicated file servers and now the demand at home is big enough for MS to make a consumer home server platform.

eSATA is a better option for primary workstation if you are dealing with big photoshop files. You can work with content directly on the drive and you don't have to transfer files as often. If you have to have something on your laptop - boom its there instead of waiting 2-3 times as long over USB2 or firewire.

If drive failure occurs, you won't have any hot swap with those crappy consumer NAS either and you won't be doing that with any typical consumer PC internal storage setup either. No RAID 5 or RAID 10 on that either. Data recovery or drive warranty is a snap with that kind of enclosure too.

[blue]

It helps to actually read and understand what Narlus mentioned he wants.

Quad Core sucks as most applications are not optimized for it[or multicore period] (http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2008/01/intel_blog_warn.html) and neither is XP.

Ummm...Core 2 Quad cpus destroy Core 2 Duos in Adobe Creative Suite benchmark testing, a software package I'm going to assume narlus uses quite a bit...yes, even in XP.

The Dell box is cheap for a reason. If you want a box that will have lots of fun gremlins in a years time, that's the way to go. I've learned my lesson about cheap PC hardware.

But whatever. :rolleyes:

[syadasti]

Hence I said 25% on average in Photoshop at the same clock speed same generation CPU. 2.4 GHz would be equal to about the same generation Core 2 Duo 3 GHz in optimized processes. Wolfdale is the next generation and more efficient equaling the quad at the same clock and available now. SSE4 push Wolfdale significantly beyond when processes become optimized. So if you can buy a E8400 (3 GHz) at the same price or less than a Q6600 (2.4 GHz) you'd be crazy not to.

If the primary task was video editing or professional 3D work, Q6600 offers greater advantage and still would probably be the viable choice over Wolfdale.

Hardware and design defects effect all pricepoints, Mac or PC.

The biggest computer companies in the world have much better buying power than you do, so just because the system cost less doesn't necessarily make it lower quality. Big OEMs in Taiwan like Asus, Foxconn, etc that make the components you use also make the components for Dell, HP, Apple, etc too.

We have over three dozen Dell Optiplex refurbs we purchased in 1999 still in production. I've been with the company about two years now and we've only had two systems with hardware problems in that time period - the systems are almost a decade old in use all day in a busy nationwide call center. If that isn't reliable, I don't know what is.

[H8R]

Hence I said 25% on average in Photoshop at the same clock speed same generation CPU. 2.4 GHz would be equal to about the same generation Core 2 Duo 3 GHz in optimized processes. Wolfdale is the next generation and more efficient equaling the quad at the same clock and available now. SSE4 push Wolfdale significantly beyond when processes become optimized. So if you can buy a E8400 (3 GHz) at the same price or less than a Q6600 (2.4 GHz) you'd be crazy not to.

Find a Wolfdale proc online that is not back ordered...

[syadasti]

Find a Wolfdale proc online that is not back ordered...

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=BA24732&CartID=done&nextloc=

FYI they are overcharging on it because its new hot offering like the 8800GT or ATI 3850/70's when they first arrived. Microcenter had RETAIL (http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0281097) (longer warranty, CPU/Heatsink included) in-stock for $200 not long ago

[H8R]

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=BA24732&CartID=done&nextloc=


An overpriced OEM processor that you will have to pay extra for a heatsink to go with it.


Brilliant!

:clapping:

[syadasti]

Retail E8400 was in stock as of Friday evening at Microcenter for $200.

Popular next generation products always have a premium the first few weeks of availability at many popular resellers like newegg/mwave/etc, its nothing new. Early adopters, supply and demand and all that...

8800 GT was better than its older overpriced prior generation 8000 series and sold at premium too at introduction. Doesn't make the old stuff any better, just less popular.

If you want new next generation stuff, be the first in line and don't shop at the resellers that rip you off. Or just wait a few weeks.

[blue]

Big OEMs in Taiwan like Asus, Foxconn, etc that make the components you use also make the components for Dell, HP, Apple, etc too.

We have over three dozen Dell Optiplex refurbs we purchased in 1999 still in production. I've been with the company about two years now and we've only had two systems with hardware problems in that time period - the systems are almost a decade old in use all day in a busy nationwide call center. If that isn't reliable, I don't know what is.

No **** they all make components for everyone else, but there's a huge difference in quality between OEM and retail stuff in many cases...When you have buyers trying to get bottom barrel on 100k motherboards, you start shaving pennies off production costs in important places.

Most pre-built boxes are only designed to outlive their warranty.

Anecdotal evidence is pretty worthless...I've seen 3 Dell laptops self-destruct in the past 6-7 months, all being used pretty lightly and treated well. Doesn't mean ****.

[H8R]

How about we all make reasonable suggestions to spec a new PC for narlus instead of getting in a retardo-battle about Dell or 20 useless posts about bleeding edge procs.

Or, as you were.

:D

[syadasti]

The Wolfdale is new and popular but not bleeding edge. Its a mainstream offering.

Laptops and desktop failure rates aren't even close the same and 36+ is easily a significant sample size, so yes there is no reason to further respond to blue.

Just look at the car's he buys and drives and that is supposedly something he thinks he knows about:D

[narlus]

How about we all make reasonable suggestions to spec a new PC for narlus instead of getting in a retardo-battle about Dell or 20 useless posts about bleeding edge procs.

Or, as you were.

:D

it wouldn't be the tech forum w/o a bit of :nerd: on :nerd: violence.

[binary visions]

it wouldn't be the tech forum w/o a bit of :nerd: on :nerd: violence.

So what are you buying?

edit: also, did you buy a monitor calibrator?

[narlus]

i am not sure..my friend @ work is trying to talk me into a NAS RAID type thing as a file server.

i've had the spyder express for about a year...it works pretty well.

[binary visions]

Ahh, I thought you had bought an expensive one for some reason.

Wanted to calibrate my monitor and check out the colors before deciding if I needed to return it, but for $50 w/ free shipping, it hardly seems worth offering you a few bucks and shipping both ways for a loan :p

[syadasti]

Have you found any monitor yet BV?

[binary visions]

I got my Dell rep to give me a really good quote on the 2007WFP which apparently is all S-IPS panels these days, so I may go with that... or I may say screw it all for the time being, stick with what I have, and buy something decent when LED backlighting goes mainstream or I can find a guaranteed decent S-IPS panel for less than 7 bills.

The Dell is a good idea in theory, but I really don't feel like playing the panel lottery if I get an old revision or they've switched again.

[narlus]

That was the suggestion, albeit 4 sticks, which was dumb of me.


I also suggested the NAS for storage, not for blazing access. He could build a new PC for Photoshop and pic processing, (with RAID on board) and re-build the Athlon box one as a jukebox/kid's machine. (Ubuntu would be PERFECT for this btw)

Both could access the NAS for storage/backup. That Buffalo NAS will also act as host to external USB drives for expansion.

that's not a bad idea...i was wondering what to do w/ the existing box.

my PC died again sometime last night, and rebooting it got the splash screen from the Asus mobo and then the windows screen, but not the login...it stayed black. gonna trouble-shoot it tonight, but i am fed up w/ it.

i should just get a new machine, get that up and running, and do a clean install on my old machine.

so, i would likely go the pre-built route, since i don't want to dick around w/ taking the time to build it myself. should i go Dell small business w/ XP Pro? and what should i go w/ for RAID/NAS storage and backup?

help a monkey out. :monkey:

[binary visions]

I'd go with a Dell box from Small Business... but I don't know that I'd do XP. I mean, eventually you're going to want/need to upgrade to Vista, may as well do it now when the OS is subsidized.

I have zero bugs on either install at home. Everything is blazing fast. The only bug I found could be attributed to an old, incompatible program that I removed and everything was fixed. Up to you, of course, but I haven't found anything worth worrying about.

[syadasti]

Dell's general business machines aren't good for multimedia usage - they have small PSU, less ports/slots, and you can't get them with decent RAID configurations. If you want something from their business lineup with nice internal RAID options you'd have to buy a midrange precision workstation which is spendy.

XPS 420 would be a good budget option with the prosumer X38 chipset and features an eSATA slot. Its BTX, but the motherboard has a decent offering of slot/ports for your usage and 375 or 425 watt PSU depending on configuration.

As I mentioned this machine isn't that bad and its got a regular ATX P35 board - its PCIe slot offerings aren't as good as the Dell X38 BTX board:

http://www.velocitymicro.com/wizard.php?iid=27

Motherboard Info:
http://www.velocitymicro.com/wizard-item-detail.php?partlist=17290

I would go the eSATA RAID enclosure route personally unless network file sharing is a primary application for the storage.

If you want XP and Vista - just get a machine with Vista Business and you have legal downgrade rights to XP Pro and can upgrade to Vista at your leisure at no cost.

[syadasti]

I just saw they had the new Yorkfield Q9450 Quad Core 45nm 12MB CPU option for $285 upgrade in-stock - that would be sweet.

[narlus]

josh, are you suggesting i look @ the Velocity stuff, or Dell?

[syadasti]

Oh and a nice thing with the Velocity is you can get Vista Business 64-bit so if you want tons of ram now or in the future you can actually use more of it. For future versions of Photoshop and other professional applications that would be required and you'll get even more benefit. Dell only offers 64-bit window with their precision workstations.

If you are taking the jump to 64-bit windows you'd have to make sure all the equipment (if you are using any old equipment) has decent support.

[syadasti]

josh, are you suggesting i look @ the Velocity stuff, or Dell?

Well considering you don't have any special needs besides a fast computer the Velocity P35 system with the new Yorkfield would probably be a better option and its more standardized and its easier to order with just the stuff you want (you can choose none for many options if you want). You can use the eSATA setup with either system.

[syadasti]

I think I would do Z35 with the following upgrades:
Q9450
2x2048 DIMM
Vista Business 32 or 64 SP1 (64 as long as you don't have equipment lacking decent 64-bit support)
You can remove some other stuff if you like or keep them

That would be about $1600

[narlus]

what equipment wouldn't be 64 bit compliant?

[syadasti]

what equipment wouldn't be 64 bit compliant?

Some old equipment you want to use with the new system that needs x64 drivers - check your printer for example.

[narlus]

my PC died again sometime last night, and rebooting it got the splash screen from the Asus mobo and then the windows screen, but not the login...it stayed black. gonna trouble-shoot it tonight, but i am fed up w/ it.


well it appears as though something is seriously wrong...i get home, and turn it on....no 'beep' on startup, no splash screen, nothing. i took all the RAM sticks out and started it up...no beeps, nothing. put an XP disc in the drive, started it...nothing.

this thing is DEAD.

[$tinkle]

what kind of printer do you have?

[narlus]

ok, help me out here a bit...i'm a bit confused w/ some terms.

that Dell box (XPS 420) says it's got an eSATA port; do i need a card/controller for it, or does the PC or MoBo come w/ it?

and if i've got that, that's the port i use for an external RAID setup? for RAID, i just buy some enclosure and fill it w/ internal hard drives? why are there an odd number of bays? i thought it was redundant, so the drives would be paired?

since that Dell (http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsdt_420?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&redirect=1)only comes w/ space for 2 HDDs, i figure that i'd toss in a blank high speed disk to use as a scratch disk for photoshop, and use the other one for OS.

so, anything else i should know?

[narlus]

what kind of printer do you have?

canon i900 bubble jet, nothing great.

[narlus]

and what sets the RAM max @ 4GB? seems kinda limiting, no?

[binary visions]

that Dell box (XPS 420) says it's got an eSATA port; do i need a card/controller for it, or does the PC or MoBo come w/ it?
eSATA is integrated into the motherboard. If the board has eSATA, it comes with everything you need - there's no "eSATA port" like there's a "PCI slot" that you have to fill.

and if i've got that, that's the port i use for an external RAID setup? for RAID, i just buy some enclosure and fill it w/ internal hard drives? why are there an odd number of bays? i thought it was redundant, so the drives would be paired?
Yep, that's what you'd use and RAID comes with odd-numbered drives because most high end RAID setups aren't mirrored discs. They build parity across multiple drives so if you have, say, five 300gb discs, you only lose one full disk to parity - so you still have 1.2tb of usable space (vs. 750gb for a mirrored set).

In the middle of working on some stuff so I haven't read all the thread, just thought I'd answer a couple questions :)

[narlus]

I ordered the system with 4GB memory. However the 32 bit Vista only support upto 3GB of RAM. Therefore the extra 1GB RAM is wasted.

is that true? i do not want a new machine to be limited, RAM-wise.

[syadasti]

Yes.

x64 supports up to 128GB of memory. Windows supports 4GB max - it will give you 3.something GB the number depends on what PCI devices you have in your system and can regularly support up to 2GB for the application unless you use the /3GB switch and the application supports it.

You need 64-bit Windows if you want to use lots of RAM but Dell only sells that in the professional precision workstation series. Velocity Micro sells 64 bit with the Z35. I would buy the Velocity Micro with the new 45nm Quad Core, 2x2GB DIMM and Vista x64 (you can downgrade to XP Pro x64 if you don't want Vista yet). This system will age well as OS and software mature for multicore 64-bit usage. You'll be able to easily upgrade to 6 or 8GB ram in the future as needed.

[narlus]

I think I would do Z35 with the following upgrades:
Q9450
2x2048 DIMM
Vista Business 32 or 64 SP1 (64 as long as you don't have equipment lacking decent 64-bit support)
You can remove some other stuff if you like or keep them

That would be about $1600

XPS 420 vs Z35...tell me pros and cons. what are the differences in the processors? does the difference in the MoBos make a difference? if i go w/ a Quad core, does that require 64 bit Vista to take advantage of it? what's the RAM max on either machine?

so...i have no idea if my printer is 64 bit compliant, but it's probably not. not a deal breaker, though.

i think for the Velocity i'd go w/ the arctic cooling heatsink/ultra quiet fan...i would like a quiet machine.

i'll post again w/ the Dell spec

[syadasti]

Looks like canon i900d supports Vista x64:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=DownloadDetailTabAct&fcategoryid=331&modelid=9390

[narlus]

Yes.

x64 supports up to 128GB of memory. Windows supports 4GB max - it will give you 3.something GB the number depends on what PCI devices you have in your system and can regularly support up to 2GB for the application unless you use the /3GB switch and the application supports it.

You need 64-bit Windows if you want to use lots of RAM but Dell only sells that in the professional precision workstation series. Velocity Micro sells 64 bit with the Z35. I would buy the Velocity Micro with the new 45nm Quad Core, 2x2GB DIMM and Vista x64 (you can downgrade to XP Pro x64 if you don't want Vista yet). This system will age well as OS and software mature for multicore 64-bit usage. You'll be able to easily upgrade to 6 or 8GB ram in the future as needed.

should i go w/ the WD 10K Raptor HD?

[H8R]

should i go w/ the WD 10K Raptor HD?

Are you an avid gamer?

[narlus]

another dumb question...vista ultimate, business, home....they are all 64 bit, but is one worth $120 or $60 over the home?

god i feel a like a dolt.

[narlus]

Are you an avid gamer?

no, never play anything. sometimes the wife plays freecell or solitaire on the upstairs PC while i'm reading to the boys at night. :banana:

[syadasti]

No you can use a quad core in 32-bit windows.

P35 is the midrange consumer chipset while x38 is the prosumer but the differences in feature won't make any significant differences unless you need more of one slot/port than the other. 8GB is max ram for either motherboard but you'll need 4 2GB dimms for that.

Just take the 500 GB drive and buy a good 320-500GB second drive from newegg if you want two internal drives. The performance difference isn't big enough to justify the price difference if you are on reasonable budget.

[narlus]

Dell spec:
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Q6600 Quad-Core (8MB L2 cache,2.4GHz,1066FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium with Digital Cable Support edit
MEMORY 3GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 4 DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 320GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache edit
OPTICAL DRIVE Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability edit
MONITORS No Monitor edit
VIDEO CARD ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO 128MB edit
SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD Dell USB Keyboard edit
MOUSE Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive or Media Reader Included edit
WI-FI AND MODEM 56K PCI Data Fax Modem edit
My Software & Accessories
SPEAKERS No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system) edit
ADOBE ELEMENTS STUDIO Adobe Elements Studio for XPS™ 420 edit
ANTI-VIRUS & SECURITY Trend Micro Internet Security 15-months edit
PRODUCTIVITY Microsoft Works 9.0 edit
My Service
WARRANTY AND SERVICE 1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor,24x7 Phone Support edit
DATASAFE ONLINE BACKUP Included 10GB DataSafe Online Backup for 1Year edit
DIAL-UP INTERNET ACCESS No ISP requested edit
ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM
Labels Windows Vista™ Premium
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 8.1
Optional Support Services Dimension XPS, Specialized Support
PHOTOS, MUSIC & MORE! No Entertainment software pre-installed

[narlus]

Velocity spec (PDF file):
http://www.mediafire.com/?wmw9ytdknnm

[syadasti]

I wouldn't go for the Dell unless you aim is to save money and they are running a killer special or you are getting a good deal on refurb from Dell Outlet.

I highly recommend the velocity Z35 configuration - it seems better suited for your usage, has 64 bit OS and its going to give you even more performance once SSE4 instructions find their way into your software.

This Vista chart should help make things clear on versions:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2068721,00.asp

Business and Ultimate have downgrade rights to same version of XP Pro (ie 32-bit Vista to XP Pro and 64-bit to XP Pro x64)

[narlus]

cool, i think i will pull the trigger very soon on this...for the RAID stuff, that eSATA enclosure + 5 HDD will get me going?

[syadasti]

If you want a raptor 150GB, but it separate and install it yourself - they are $165 from newegg. Just keep the stock 500GB as your internal data drive...

[syadasti]

Yeah so spec the Z35 with the 500GB drive and buy the Raptor 150GB OEM from newegg for $165.

For the eSATA enclosure you need a minimum of three disks for RAID5. RAID 10 would perform better for writes but would have less capacity. If you buy five drives for the RAID 10 you can only use 4 but could use one remainder as a hotswap for failure.

You can buy 320GB for $75, 500GB for $100, and 750GB for $150 each.

If you are looking for info on which brand drive to buy you can check newegg reviews and troll forums like:

http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?showforum=2

or

http://www.hardforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29

[syadasti]

Another thing is you'll probably have to reinstall your OS unless you pull a trick like installing the SATA driver and then changing your BIOS to AHCI mode (which usually works). Most companies probably don't configure their systems for AHCI out of the box but you'll get best SATA performance and feature set support.

[syadasti]

If you are going with the AMS enclosure, please see this chart for compatibility information - you may have to use the included controller card instead of eSATA port built into the motherboard but the chart shows tested configurations as of July 07, so it its a bit out of date.

http://www.siliconimage.com/docs/DOC-002000-451_SteelVineCompatibility_REV_10.pdf

Intel says their RAID manager supports port multiplier as of the 2007 version (DP35DP has ICH9R (RAID) ):

http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/matrixstorage_sb.htm

In 2007 Intel Matrix Storage Technology has further extended its performance and protection capabilities outside of the PC. In 2006 eSATA* was introduced to Intel chipsets and natively supported with Intel Matrix Storage Technology, in 2007 support for port multipliers enhanced this capability by allowing multiple drives to be connected to a single eSATA connection. Now a user can utilize RAID capability on multiple drives outside of the PC, an ideal solution for small form factor PC's needing extra storage or for users that require increased storage capacity that needs to be protected.

Looks like the Barracuda 7200.9-11 or WD RE2 or SE16 drives would be good choices on their chart.

From newegg I saw this good tip if you have to use the provided PCIe controller:

ONLY use a host w/ si3132 NON RAID bios for the controller - Raid is handled by the port multiplier Si4726. Either Raid software provided works, but better explantion of how to use them is on Silicone image website. It is also a little finicky on drives, for instance I tried mix and match approved drives with limited results. It works great with 5 of the same drives

[narlus]

why can't PC components use the Garanimal mix-n-match system?

josh, at this point i'm pretty set about getting the Velocity machine you recommended...now set me up w/ an eSATA RAID enclosure/hard drive setup and my credit card will stir into action.

btw, what is the best enclosure for an internal drive? i want to get some data off my internal drives which are still in my old (and now totally dead...wtf is up w/ that?) machine. or will any of these do?

[narlus]

ok, i am now backing away from Vista 64 bit OS...photoshop isn't supported yet?

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-6146229-7.html

[syadasti]

You can use the AMS enclosure to pull data off before you setup the RAID with the new drives or you can buy a stand alone eSATA/USB2 enclosure but those are more for portable/permanent usage - its a PITA to swap drives out single enclosure units for the most part:

http://www.provantage.com/YANTG04E.htm

If you are just pulling data off drives for recovery, this is a good tool:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812232002

I would also check on these HDD - they are $105 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152052) - maybe just email Silicon Image to see if they are ok for the Si4726, I don't see why they wouldn't be - fast, cool, and quiet:

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3031

[syadasti]

ok, i am now backing away from Vista 64 bit OS...photoshop isn't supported yet?

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-6146229-7.html

Photoshop works fine in Vista 64, its just not optimized so you won't get extra benefits right now. You'll get better memory support even without changes to the program.

[syadasti]

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16095

[narlus]

at this point i am nervous about not having all my software and hardware compatible w/ 64 bit OS, either XP or Vista.

so if i go back to Dell, what about Vostro/Precision Workstation/Optiplex choices? XPS doesn't have anything in the outlet store.

[syadasti]

64-bit Windows has WOW64 for running 32-bit apps.

XPS 420 refurbs:
http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventorySearch?c=us&cs=22&l=en&lob=DIM&MODEL_DESC=XPS%20420&s=dfh

Precision T5400 refurbs:
http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventorySearch?c=us&cs=28&l=en&lob=PREC&MODEL_DESC=Precision%20T5400&s=dfb

Sweet, not as fast CPU but nice spec:

http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventoryDetails?systemId=0GTHRGJY&~lt=popup&c=us&l=en&s=dfb&cs=28

[syadasti]

Maybe refurb is the way to go if you are more comfortable with Dell and its a great value. Its a true professional workstation.

[syadasti]

This one is good too next Xeon down but twice the ram and no 10K HDDs:

http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventoryDetails?systemId=09CRB79R&~lt=popup&c=us&l=en&s=dfb&cs=28

[syadasti]

Narlus, clean out your PMs.

Does PS do better with more ram or faster HDD - that would be the question between the two systems but I'm guessing the extra ram if you are working with huge image files.

[binary visions]

Narlus, I'm running Vista 64. Photoshop is plenty fast and I've yet to hit a single application that doesn't run.

[syadasti]

Don't forget the precision refurb comes with a 3 year next business day on-site support contract - its a great deal for the configuration at $1900...

You can order via their site or call (have the system identifier ready from the spec pages I linked):
1-888-518-3355

[syadasti]

Narlus, I'm running Vista 64. Photoshop is plenty fast and I've yet to hit a single application that doesn't run.

I didn't have an issue either when I ran the Vista x64 beta either...

[narlus]

Narlus, clean out your PMs.

9 emails telling me my inbox is full.


at least you are persistent. :D

[syadasti]

Haha. Well it doesn't tell me when the inbox is clear :D

[narlus]

the problem w/ spending $1900 on a box is that i still need to outlay $$$ for the external RAID setup + HDDs.

:|

[syadasti]

Well I was going by your Z35 quote which was about the same price.

What is your target budget? Professional workstations are better than regular desktop PCs for you usage you seem pretty much like a professional photographer on the side...

[narlus]

Narlus, I'm running Vista 64. Photoshop is plenty fast and I've yet to hit a single application that doesn't run.

BV, what wireless are you running? i've got Linksys WRT54GS, and i can't verify if that's supported via a driver written for 64 bit. i guess i should check my monitor as well.

[narlus]

Well I was going by your Z35 quote which was about the same price.

What is your target budget? Professional workstations are better than regular desktop PCs for you usage you seem pretty much like a professional photographer on the side...

i am full of contradictions.

[syadasti]

BV, what wireless are you running? i've got Linksys WRT54GS, and i can't verify if that's supported via a driver written for 64 bit. i guess i should check my monitor as well.

Your router doesn't use drivers - it plugs into the ethernet port.

Your monitor will work even if you don't have drivers. The color profile for the monitor and/or graphic drive will be more important in your field I assume.

[syadasti]

So if you buy the AMS enclosure and do a 5 drive RAID5 with 7200.10 320GB OEM Barracudas you are looking at around $580 on top of the system price if you buy the enclosure and drives from newegg.

That will give you storage of 1192.09GB

[narlus]

Your router doesn't use drivers - it plugs into the ethernet port.

Your monitor will work even if you don't have drivers. The color profile for the monitor and/or graphic drive will be more important in your field I assume.

ok, so that's good. looks like my plextor drive (712) may not be supported by Vista. the canon printer appears to be supported.

i should check my epson scanner next.

[syadasti]

I'm pretty sure most optical drives will work with Vista unless there is something unusual about it - they just load a generic windows driver. Its a good idea to check on you scanner though.

An OEM copy of an OS later down the road (say if you went 32 or got the precision with XP x64 to Vista x64) is $150 or less. Only disadvantage of OEM is you can't legally transfer it to a new system but a new system from one of these vendors will be OEM anyways...

[binary visions]

Optical drives will work fine.

Narlus, an easy way to check for Vista 64 compatibility is to just type "<name of program> vista 64" into Google. There are a lot of different compatibility pages and a lot of different forums that have people talking about whether or not a program is compatible.

I only found one utility in my whole system that wasn't compatible on the new OS... and a few people ran it with no problems, I just haven't tried it yet.

[narlus]

This one is good too next Xeon down but twice the ram and no 10K HDDs:

http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventoryDetails?systemId=09CRB79R&~lt=popup&c=us&l=en&s=dfb&cs=28

do you think that WinXP 64 is a niche OS w/ not much 3rd party support, esp as compared to the Vista 64?


i need to **** or get off the pot. at this point, my head is spinning, and i just want a machine that works. :huh:

[syadasti]

Dell isn't going to sell an workstation unless it comes with drivers for all the equipment installed in the box, so its no problem. Wow64 works in XP x64 too. There is actually slightly more x64 driver support for XP than Vista because its older but it doesn't take too much more resources for a company to update them for Vista for most pieces of hardware.

[binary visions]

Tim, I understand your sensory overload, there are a lot of options. It's really not as complex as it seems, though.

Look, you've never laid out a budget here. The Velocity config you laid out looks nice, I'd jump on that in a second. If it's not in the price range, though, you need to post up a price. If you want to save some money on that config, knock off the Raptor drive and use something like Open Office instead of spending an extra $200 on MS Office. That's $350 off the top of the system and pays for most of your RAID setup. You don't want to penny-pinch too much on a setup to support your photography anyway.

There's a lot of crap floating around about Vista 64, but the reality is that, unless you're using esoteric or legacy applications, your stuff is going to work just fine. Plus, it's easy to check - spend 5 minutes punching searches into Google and you'll have all of your answers.

Go with Vista Business for downgrade rights in case you want XP back, which covers your bases... and on the off chance that you'll ever need to join it to a domain. Other than that... Just don't overthink it. Pick a vendor - probably stick with Velocity - and configure for your price range. If you need to knock a little money off, I made two suggestions above and you could scale the processor back, too. Sometimes aftermarket video cards are cheaper than stock upgrades as well, so you might be able to drop down to the lowest level video card and pick up another one from NewEgg.

[syadasti]

Don't forget the precisions are even nicer real professional level hardware and the CPU isn't that much slower than the Velocity plus you get the 3 years on site warranty included in the price and you get more instant gratification since they just ship you something they have sitting in a warehouse...

[narlus]

alright, chopping the 10K HD and MS Office has my price down to $1650 or so on the Velocity rig. that looks pretty good, and i can set up my eSATA RAID thing later (i've got externals going now that can suffice for now, just worried about the RAID/MoBo thing josh mentioned...i hate config'ing that crap).

[syadasti]

Sounds good. The Velocity has a $50 off coupon on it that expires Sunday. Call to confirm they have that quad core in stock for certain. Seems like a good option if you can't swing the precision T5400.

This T3400 is more affordable and has the higher end X38 chipset but would not be as high performance as the Z35 in your config but it does have the 3 year warranty and North American phone support:

http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventoryDetails?systemId=FXAB9E9R&~lt=popup&c=us&l=en&s=dfb&cs=28

[narlus]

from a work friend:
The knowledgebase article may help you with the computer purchase.

http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=kb401088

For slightly less money, you can go with the Core 2 duo E8400 which is based on the same 45nm technology and has a faster clock speed. Based on the adobe article, you gain little to no advantage going to 64-bit processing. If you stick with a 32-bit OS, 4GB of ram may also be excessive. I would recommend that you start with 2GB. And if you are sticking with one graphics card, I suggest that you get someone slightly more powerful. At a glance, I do not believe that your motherboard supports SLI (which you may not need). Also, the new standard the PCI is PCI Express 2, which I blieve is not supported by the motherboard on the spec.

If you build your own system and go with some of my recommendations, I estimate that all the parts and OS combined would cost around $1500.

[$tinkle]

you realize in the time since the first post moore's law has been kicking your ass?

[narlus]

that's not the one about the nazis, is it?

[syadasti]

Tim we already covered that stuff. If you are working with large image files 64-bit OS gives significant photoshop benefits regardless of the fact its not yet designed for 64-bit OS. From your friend's KB article:

If you have more than 4 GB (to 6 GB), then the RAM above 4 GB is used by the operating system as a cache for the Photoshop scratch disk data. Data that previously was written directly to the hard disk by Photoshop is now cached in this high RAM before being written to the hard disk by the operating system. If you are working with files large enough to take advantage of these extra 2 GB of RAM, the RAM cache can speed performance of Photoshop. Additionally, in Windows Vista 64-bit, processing very large images is much faster if your computer has large amounts of RAM (6-8 GB).

SLI is for gaming and CS3 has very limited GPU acceleration support - image display and pressure sensitive brush acceleration, so there is zero need on that front at the present, don't upgrade your GPU - its a waste:

Instead of relying on the Central Processor Unit (CPU) for the graphics processing, some Graphics Processor Units (GPUs) are capable of providing faster graphics rendering. Where a GPU type card is detected, checking the Enable 3D Acceleration box will improve the image display performance. The 3D support will also improve the performance of the brushes. When using a pressure sensitive pen, the brushes response will feel much more sensitive and responsive.

For CS3 I don't so much think the quad core gives much advantage but maybe for future versions it will and it does give significant advantages in some other applications. If you are buying for CS3 performance right now a higher clock Wolfdale dual core will be faster and cheaper.

Dell sells the T3400 with the 8X00 series Wolfdale too.

[syadasti]

GPU based computing (stream computing) will probably be more important in future in certain types of computing tasks, but GPU change every 6 months so there is no reason to buy a decent one right now. Buy the latest GPU when there are applications you use that actually use them significantly.

Stream Computing Info:
http://techreport.com/articles.x/10956/1

The first GPU image editor for the Mac (they claim first GPU image editor but that was the Vista image editor over a year prior):
http://www.pixelmator.com/

[syadasti]

The highest GPU you might need is the 8500 GT ($75 or less for the better DDR3 version) if you aren't gaming/3D/some video editing apps. The 8500GT offers H.264 decoding acceleration which is good for watching lots of videos on you PC if you do that sort of stuff...

[narlus]

i might settle for this:

PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Q6600 Quad-Core (8MB L2 cache,2.4GHz,1066FSB)
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium with Digital Cable Support
MEMORY 4GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 4 DIMMs
HARD DRIVE 320GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
OPTICAL DRIVE Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
MONITORS No Monitor
VIDEO CARD ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO 128MB
SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
KEYBOARD Dell USB Keyboard
MOUSE Dell Optical USB Mouse
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive or Media Reader Included
WI-FI AND MODEM No Modem Requested

price = 1.1K

how can i tell if the OS is 64 bit or not?

[syadasti]

Dell doesn't sell 64 bit OS with their consumer or regular business computers unless you are an large corporate or edu customer - you need a precision workstation if you want x64.

Which line is that PC from? I would get a 8X00 series dual core Wolfdale if you are trying to save money and the new 45nm Quad Core (not the old Q6600) if you are going for long term usage (the performance of the system will increase as OS and applications get optimized for SSE4 and multicore.

Dell Precision workstations are tested and certified by a host of professional application companies including Adobe.

FYI Dell will not provide support for x64 on anything but precision workstations and their servers...

[binary visions]

So have you picked something or are you still mincing around the decision like a little girly-man?

Just buy this (http://www.alienware.com/product_detail_pages/Area-51_ALX/area-51_overview.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51-ALX-R7&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT) and be done with it.

[narlus]

i shot Gutter Twins last night, going out to dinner w/ my ex-boss tonight...i'm a busy man.

[syadasti]

Here are three tiers for you:

High Choice - Dell Precision T5400 Refurb $1900

Mid Choice - Velocity Micro Vector Z35 45nm Q9450 or E8500 $1600 or less

Low Choice - Dell Precision T3400 Refurb $1400

[narlus]

these all assume 64 bit OS, yes?

[syadasti]

these all assume 64 bit OS, yes?

Si.

Refurbs have XP Pro x64 and Z35 Vista Business x64

[narlus]

i think i will go w/ the Z35 Velocity machine.

[syadasti]

i think i will go w/ the Z35 Velocity machine.

Any of the three should be good options. So are you going for raw CS3 speed now (E8500) or all around performance (Q9450)?

The Velocity has Vista SP1 preinstalled, so you should be aware you might have growing pains to contend with in certain configurations but since you will have brand new hardware you probably won't have issues. You will be an early adopter of SP1.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/19/some-vista-sp1-early-adopters-reporting-problems-how-about-you/

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/03/18/windows-vista-sp1-released-to-windows-update.aspx

[narlus]

going for the quad. i figure that over time i can add in RAM and make that my scratch disk for CS 3.

i think i will also go w/ the eSATA RAID enclosure, rather than NAS

[syadasti]

High performance CPU and storage, I like your thinking.

Quad core is great for video editing - when are we going to see narlus videos:D

[binary visions]

I am running SP1, BTW, no issues at least for the last 24 hours...

[narlus]

josh, at this point i'm pretty set about getting the Velocity machine you recommended...now set me up w/ an eSATA RAID enclosure/hard drive setup and my credit card will stir into action.



ready, set go!

[syadasti]

Well there is the expensive one:
http://www.provantage.com/sonnet-fus-d5p-00tb~7SONT06F.htm

And the cheaper one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817332017

As I mentioned earlier, for the eSATA enclosure you need a minimum of three disks for RAID5. RAID 10 would perform better for writes but would have less capacity. If you buy five drives for the RAID 10 you can only use 4 but could use one remainder as a hotswap for failure.

You can buy 320GB for $75, 500GB for $100, and 750GB for $150 each.

If you are looking for info on which brand drive to buy you can check newegg reviews and troll forums like:

http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?showforum=2

or

http://www.hardforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29

[syadasti]

I see someone reviewed the AMS on 3/18 with the HD501LJ in RAID5.

I would recommend those drives - cool, quiet, and fast...

I would personally buy the AMS, but I the sonnet company probably has better technical support.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152052

[syadasti]

If you setup 5 500GB discs RAID5 you'll have 1862.64GB

If you setup 4 500GB discs RAID10 you'll have 931.32GB but you'll have better performance than the RAID5 and if you buy a 5th HDD you could have it as a hotswap spare. You could also do the RAID5 with 4 discs and have 1 HDD as hotswap spare and that will give you 1396.98GB.

[narlus]

velocity is cool. josh, on yr advice re: the AHCI setup, i talked w/ a guy on the phone and they will configure that for me so i don't have to.

:D

[syadasti]

Thats cool. On my Intel 975 Badaxe (no its not a nickname I just randomly gave it) it wasn't too hard to do it after the fact.

I had to switch the controller's driver manually to an AHCI driver in Windows, reboot, and switch to AHCI mode in the BIOS. Also installed the Intel matrix manager afterwards.

XP worked fine doing it in that order and Ubuntu 7.1 had no complaints with no changes on my part at all.

[narlus]

I would personally buy the AMS, but I the sonnet company probably has better technical support.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152052

this is a major con:
Cons: The system is unbelievably loud even when the fans are turned to low. It would work great hidden in a server room, but not sitting on your desktop for the external storage.

[syadasti]

A single HDD is about 50 db idle 60 db seek but with a good enclosure a single drive is usually in the 30s.

RAID arrays are never quiet - 5 drives going at once is going to be noisy. Fans keep things cool and prevent drive failure. I doubt the more expensive sonnet enclosure is that much more quiet, but you can check.

[narlus]

how long a cable can i run? i've got a closet (unventilated) in the room.

bad idea?

[syadasti]

Keep it in a well ventilated area unless its cool year round (basement?)

eSATA cables aren't available in large sizes - I think 2m max?

[narlus]

new version of Lightroom is 64 bit.

:monkeydance:

[syadasti]

new version of Lightroom is 64 bit.

:monkeydance:

Yeah you hit the jackpot with your platform and OS choice. A mac would have been overpriced and epic fail for you unless you dual booted or waited years for CS5 by which your equipment would be obsolete yet again :cheers:

Adobe's John Nack writes about the future plans for Adobe Photoshop CS4 and CS5, revealing that Adobe Photoshop CS4 will include 64-Bit support, but for Windows only. The Mac version of CS4 will remain at 32-Bit. The reason for the discrepancy, however, is not due to a lack of interest or support from Adobe, but for more practical reasons.

First off, Nack admits that the 64-bit version of Photoshop will see modest speed increases (8-12%) but the biggest advantage will be for those using massive images (a 3.375 gigapixel image is given as an example). With these massive sizes and with enough RAM (32GB given as example), you can see substantial (10x) improvements.

Adobe expects that Mac users will have to wait until CS5 before getting full 64-bit support. The reason for this delay is due to Apple's abrupt dropping of Carbon 64-bit support:

At the WWDC show last June, however, Adobe & other developers learned that Apple had decided to stop their Carbon 64 efforts. This means that 64-bit Mac apps need to be written to use Cocoa (as Lightroom is) instead of Carbon. This means that we'll need to rewrite large parts of Photoshop and its plug-ins (potentially affecting over a million lines of code) to move it from Carbon to Cocoa.

Nack reports that they started working on the transition immediately after the announcement but due to the scope of the transition are unable to deliver it by CS4. He also tries to dispel the notion that Cocoa alone will produce a higher quality product than Carbon:

Most Mac users don't know Cocoa from Ovaltine, and nor should they: it's just an implementation detail, not a measure of quality. I think Brent Simmons, creator of wonderful Cocoa apps like NetNewsWire, put it most elegantly: "Finder + Cocoa = Finder." That is, rewriting one's app in Cocoa doesn't somehow automatically improve its speed, usability, or feature set.

[bullcrew]

Lian li 1000B case
Q6600 (OC to 3.6 24/7) lapped and as5
Coolit freezone elite lapped as well on CPU sink
4 gbs ram (xp 3gb switch on)
2 Raptor 150gb HDs raid 0
PC P&C silencer quad 750 PSU
8800 GTS
Zalmann digital fan/temp controller
Abit IP 35 pro board
+ more and some LEDS (got bored so I blinged + customers think its cool)
http://www.ridemonkey.com/mountain-bike-photos/data/500/case-lower1web.jpg
http://www.ridemonkey.com/mountain-bike-photos/data/500/side-openweb.jpg
http://www.ridemonkey.com/mountain-bike-photos/data/500/sideweb577.jpg
http://www.ridemonkey.com/mountain-bike-photos/data/500/frontweb574.jpg

[JustMtnB44]

Lian li 1000B case
Q6600 (OC to 3.6 24/7) lapped and as5
Coolit freezone elite lapped as well on CPU sink
4 gbs ram (xp 3gb switch on)
2 Raptor 150gb HDs raid 0
PC P&C silencer quad 750 PSU
8800 GTS
Zalmann digital fan/temp controller
Abit IP 35 pro board
+ more and some LEDS (got bored so I blinged + customers think its cool)


How do you like the Abit IP 35 pro mobo and the build so far? I am planning on some similar parts in my new build.

This is the plan for my new build:
Abit IP 35 pro mobo
E8400, probably OC'd to 3.6 ish
AC Freezer 7 Pro cooler
OCZ 4 gb ram
8800GTS 512mb
WD 500gb AAKS hdd
Corsair 620HX psu
Samsung DVD burner
Antec P182 case w/3 120mm fans

[bullcrew]

Love it, its stupid fast in all apps I use it as well as it rips to the printers quick. I took it a little beyond just graphics and wide format printing but happy as ever.
The coolit freezone is an awesome unit I beta tested the elite before its release and its been flawless, good reviews (better than the competition) in terms of cooling and consistency at higher OC's.
I had my Q6600 running prime 95 all 4 cores at 3.87ghz 45 minutes in and the temp hit 73 celsius, then the mem choked 4;4;4;15 I had to slack it up a bit and play with the voltages a little bit.
Abit boards have a v-droop issue (easy to fix, not pencil mod easy but still not bad) aside of that it rocks. I slaughtered alot of stuff out there in benchmark programs as well as has 1 of the fastest 8800 gts 320mbs out there. Single card, Air cooled, approved drivers 13882 in 3dmark06

[narlus]

delivery is tomorrow!

[syadasti]

Photoshop CS4 to use more GPGPU:

http://techreport.com/discussions.x/14788

[narlus]

ok, i've still not figured out my external RAID setup...and i need to.

i was confused a bit about some of what was said here:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=525202


can i not use the external drives via eSATA in a RAID configuration?

[syadasti]

Yeah you can but the one integrated into the motherboard probably doesn't have decent performance but I'm pretty sure it supports port multiplier which is all you need (though some controllers in these enclosures are pretty pick on what you pair them with). You'll probably need something like this if you want speed with the RAID array (RAID5 for security and value or RAID10 for security and performance):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115036

[SkaredShtles]

ok, i've still not figured out my external RAID setup...and i need to.

i was confused a bit about some of what was said here:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=525202


can i not use the external drives via eSATA in a RAID configuration?
WTF is this guy on about?

Also when building a RAID make sure you buy a extra drive of the same make, as you don't want different drives in your array as spindle vibrations from different drives (or even firmware) can have a detrimental effect on the lifespan of the drives.

Are these guys camera guys or computer guys? :think:

[syadasti]

If you haven't found anything yet, I would call these guys for advice:

http://www.pc-pitstop.com

They sell a ton of enclosures, many with port multiplier support:

http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sata_port_multipliers/

Though newegg.com sells the Rocketraid 2314 card for cheaper and this enclosure (mentioned earlier in the thread) is a pretty good deal:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817332017

That would probably be the best bang for buck setup.

Also like SS said buy all the same drives with the same firmware. RAID5 requires at least 3 drives and RAID10 requires 4 drives.

[narlus]

Also like SS said buy all the same drives with the same firmware. RAID5 requires at least 3 drives and RAID10 requires 4 drives.

from wiki:

Some RAID vendors will avoid placing disks from the same manufacturing lot in a redundancy group to minimize the odds of simultaneous early life and end of life failures as evidenced by the Bathtub curve.


so it sounds like i'm best off either running RAID 1 or RAID 5. i was not thinking i'd need a RAID controller card since the MoBo has an eSATA output; is that bad thinking?

i'd rather not have any complicated setup crap either. is what i am asking impossible?

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>

so it sounds like i'm best off either running RAID 1 or RAID 5.
50% storage loss for RAID1... less for RAID5.

i'd rather not have any complicated setup crap either. is what i am asking impossible?
Pretty much. :D

Have you given any more consideration to the NAS solutions?

[syadasti]

i was not thinking i'd need a RAID controller card since the MoBo has an eSATA output; is that bad thinking?

Well it depends on if the controller in your enclosure controller plays nice with the Intel controller on your motherboard. Untested combos are a data security risk.

The card that comes with the $230 setup will work but RAID5 performance might be slow.

[narlus]

what's the benefit of the NAS option? do i still get redundancy in case of HDD failure?

[syadasti]

what's the benefit of the NAS option? do i still get redundancy in case of HDD failure?

Its basically an appliance running a stripped down OS to act as file server or other network based storage application. Its much slower than eSATA but easier to share. NAS come in RAID and non-RAID versions so they may be redundant

[Transcend]

I just picked up a QNAP TS 209 Pro II NAS server to add on over here. 2 x 1tb hdds. You can do raid 0, raid 1 or JBOD. Gigabit ethernet, 3 x USB ports (printer server or expansion or hub), small, quiet. Includes a built in server for just about everything, but I have FTP and UPNP media server running. It's fantastic for streaming EVERYTHING to my xbox and plasma.

http://www.qnap.com/pro_detail_feature.asp?p_id=93

I'm running JBOd as I have my qnap backup to another array with different model disks. Less chance of failure if one appliances get dropped, zapped, stolen etc.

[syadasti]

The Drobo2 looks like a nice simplified RAID enclosure with NAS option:

http://www.drobo.com/Products/drobo.html
http://www.drobo.com/Products/droboshare.html

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/08/drobo-second-gen-mini-review/

Decent 640GB HDDs $90
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218

May just need this Firewire 800 card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815104224

or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124050

[Transcend]

The drobo is a slow piece of crap. And expensive once you add the NAS option. It also relies HEAVILY on the processor in your computer, it is not self contained hardware RAID.

[syadasti]

The drobo is a slow piece of crap. And expensive once you add the NAS option. It also relies HEAVILY on the processor in your computer, it is not self contained hardware RAID.

The new one is faster. If tim doesn't want something more complex you have to make some compromises. Beside that he has a quad core and very little makes use of all those cores yet. eSATA is way faster than NAS too.

He has to figure out what his priorities are - speed/performance, failover, accessibility, cost, etc...

[Transcend]

One more time, the Drobo is a complete piece of overhyped, overpriced crap. You can get much better solutions for less money.

[syadasti]

Much of the same can be said about Apple's products so what is your point:banana:

People see value in ease of use or perceived/over-hyped ease of use and the drobo is an acceptable entry level solution.

The cheapest (AMS) and otherwise (Sonnet) high performance entry level RAID eSATA solutions were mentioned on the first page of this thread and also here (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2990027&postcount=142)

[Transcend]

People see value in ease of use or perceived/over-hyped ease of use and the drobo is an acceptable entry level solution.

The cheapest (AMS) and otherwise (Sonnet) high performance entry level RAID eSATA solutions were mentioned on the first page of this thread and also here (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2990027&postcount=142)

It isn't entry level from a price standpoint. It is expensive. It doesn't do real raid, nor do it do NAS out of the box. It's an overpriced product that does NOTHING exceptionally.

The QNAP mentioned does everything the drobo does + about a zillion other things, for less money. It is true hardware raid to boot. The only thing is cannot do that a drobo can is connect directly via FW, which from a speed standpoint doesn't matter in this comparison as the drobo is so bloody slow.

Drobo just needs to go away.

[syadasti]

Sounds fair. I never said it was cheap or high performance.

QNAP is a better value. For $100 more than the drobo you get 4 drive QNAP setup with NAS.

If he doesn't have anything else I think it would be best to do RAID 5 at least.

You could do a RAID 5 NAS setup with 3 drives and buy a drive + Antec MX-1 eSATA/USB2 setup for high bandwidth on the go usage and maybe a extra drive as a spare for either = total would be about $1100 if you buy the QNAP 409 Pro + Antex MX1 + 5 640GB HDDs.

The Antec works with most desktop in eSATA mode if you crack open the case of the desktop computer you are using and plug in the eSATA adapter bracket into a spare SATA port on the motherboard - I've done that before for HDD upgrades. If you need to get data off notebooks at internal drive speeds, eSATA cards aren't too expensive.

[narlus]

eh, i don't want to spend 1K on redundancy...i need that 35L f/1.4 too much!

would i be better w/ JBOD or some big NAS external setup?