The Monkey Butt

[Ted Wojcik]

Click here to read the original Monkey Butt brainstorming and development thread. (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191846)

Here is the Monkey Butt in it's finished form. Thanks to all who took the time to give an opinion on what this bike should be. I was surprised by a number of posts that said slow, steady handling was a trait that attracted many riders to the whole 29er revolution. I must admit that this bike is designed to be a bit more New England single track oriented. The head angle is a little steeper than some others, a little more than 72 and the bottom bracket is a little higher. It should be better in the rooty, rutty areas of the Northeast. It will be going to some riders in Central Connecticut for road (trail) testing. We will see how it came out.

I'll give you a run down of features that set it apart from a lot of other bikes. It is built with Paragon Slider drop-outs which will allow chainstay length to be as short as possible and still clear the front dérailleur's cable linkage. The actual stay length is determined by tire size. I also made the dérailleur's cable stops removable so those who like a single speed can remove the "warts" when riding without all the gears. The frame is powdercoated black for durability and easy touch up. The components include Mavic C29SSMax wheels, (Thanks to Sean Sullivan at Mavic USA) Shimano XT rear derailleur, XT E-type front dérailleur, XT dual control shfters, XT disc brakes, LX crank and B.B. Sram PC 991 chain, XT cassette, Race Face Deus headset, Thompson Elite stem, Thompson Elite seatpost, Race Face XC riser bar, ODI grips, WTB saddle, and Maxxis Ignitor tires. The fork is a FOX 29er fork with 80mm travel that I cannot buy direct from Fox because Fox has an agreement with Fischer for exclusive availability as a manufacturer. I had to get it from a local Bike Shop. Thanks to John Gromek owner of Exeter Cycles for helping with the fork.

I am currently taking orders and the frame is available in small, medium, large and extra large. Full custom is $150 option. My shop is a custom frame shop so I will build just about anything that is safe. Take a look at the photos and let me know what you think.

94170941719417294173

[MMcG]

Mighty Nice Ted.

The Central CT Test Pilots are lining up and are ready to ride "The Butt" and provide you and the rest of the 29er Monkeys with their ride reports and input! It looks like it'll be quite a nimble 29er that's for sure. Looking forward to finding out soon. :thumb:

[MMcG]

Oh Yeah - Ted - Any idea of the fully built weight? And what about the weight of the frame only? Did you do any weighing?

[Ted Wojcik]

I did not weigh the bike or frame

[sikocycles]

Specs on the XL?

[greenchris]

yes, specs on the xl would be great...
Ted- that frame looks sick. congrats on the great build/idea...

[Ted Wojcik]

The frame weighs 3.9 lbs and the complete bike weighs 25.8lbs.

Ted

[BadDNA]

:drool: I can't wait to give this one a spin.

[MMcG]

Ted - this first ever Monkey Butt - what size would you equate it to? Would this fall into the Medium category with the 17" ST and approximately 24" effective TT?

[Aktion]

Ted - this first ever Monkey Butt - what size would you equate it to? Would this fall into the Medium category with the 17" ST and approximately 24" effective TT?

Ted's busy in shop, but yes, the demo is a medium.

-Small: 14" /top tube 23.25"/ headtube 4"/ seat angle 74deg /head angle 71.75deg
-Medium: 15.75" /top tube 24"/ headtube 4.5"/ seat
angle 73deg /head angle 72.25deg
-Large: 18" /top tube 24.75/ head tube 5"/ seat angle
73deg /head angle 72.25deg
X-Large: 20" /top tube 25.50"/ headtube 6"/ seat angle
72deg /head angle 72.50deg
-16.85 to 17.75 chainstays on all
-2.250 BB drop on all

[MMcG]

Ted's busy in shop, but yes, the demo is a medium.

Those TTs are center to center measurments yes?

Info to be up on Ted's site real soon correct?

[sikocycles]

Wow the XL is real tempting. Nice numbers.

[Aktion]

Those TTs are center to center measurments yes?

Info to be up on Ted's site real soon correct?

The TT measurements are effective TT length and the Seat tube measurement is center of BB to top of top tube.

The site should be updated today sometime with the prices and sizes and all that fun stuff.

[MMcG]

:drool: I can't wait to give this one a spin.


Spin will be granted in exchange for a bottle of home brew how's that sound? ;)

[BadDNA]

I'm sure we can work that out.

[MMcG]

I'm sure we can work that out.

:clapping::monkeydance::cheers:

[ByStickel]

What's the shortest chainstay length with a front derailleur ?
(assuming the Ignitor tires it's wearing now)

That front end is going to be razor-sharp! Don't expect anybody to complain about sluggishness there.

Congrats, Ted!

[MMcG]

What's the shortest chainstay length with a front derailleur ?
(assuming the Ignitor tires it's wearing now)




That's a good question - what say ye Ted?

How short were you able to go?

[frznnomad]

wow ted that is some quality frame you got there man. i havent seen much of your stuff but when i lived in nashville a friend of mine had his frame stripped of the cable stops and painted by you and wow you do one hell of a good job man. :clapping:

[Ted Wojcik]

The chainstays are set at about 17.25" now.
Thanks for the kind words.

[MMcG]

That's pretty impressive - I was able to achieve something similar with a Karate Monkey using a pretty old Shimano front derailleur - but that was with the bent seat tube and this frame has a strait seat tube.

And this bike will have a much more trail bike friendly bottom bracket height.

[ssmike]

I was able to achieve something similar with a Karate Monkey using a pretty old Shimano front derailleur ...

There are certain Shimano derailleurs that have much lower profile linkages, hence the ability to potentially run with short(er) chainstay bikes. The tire clearance (A) dimension in Shimano's tech info is the distance from the center of the seat tube to the furthest point of the derailleur's linkage.

XTR M971, XT M761, LX M581, Deore M531: 41mm
XTR M970, XT M760, LX M580, Deore M530: 50mm
Deore M511 (the old ones): 33mm

The new M77X series XT front derailleurs have an even smaller A dimension. I don't have the tech document here, but measured an M771 derailleur at 28.5mm.

Even with all these dimensions, this is not to say that if you can run one of the 50mm derailleurs with a 17.75" chainstay length, you will be able to have a 17" chainstay bike with the M771 derailleur. There are other things that come into play with regards to front derailleur clearance like seat tube angle and bottom bracket drop.

[chrismac]

There are certain Shimano derailleurs that have much lower profile linkages, hence the ability to potentially run with short(er) chainstay bikes. The tire clearance (A) dimension in Shimano's tech info is the distance from the center of the seat tube to the furthest point of the derailleur's linkage.

XTR M971, XT M761, LX M581, Deore M531: 41mm
XTR M970, XT M760, LX M580, Deore M530: 50mm
Deore M511 (the old ones): 33mm

The new M77X series XT front derailleurs have an even smaller A dimension. I don't have the tech document here, but measured an M771 derailleur at 28.5mm.

Even with all these dimensions, this is not to say that if you can run one of the 50mm derailleurs with a 17.75" chainstay length, you will be able to have a 17" chainstay bike with the M771 derailleur. There are other things that come into play with regards to front derailleur clearance like seat tube angle and bottom bracket drop.

so this is a new xt derailleur.. as in '08.. readily available? do you think these changers are getting modified for this problem.. or just a coincidence that just so happens to benefit the 29er deraillure conundrum?

[ssmike]

so this is a new xt derailleur.. as in '08.. readily available? do you think these changers are getting modified for this problem.. or just a coincidence that just so happens to benefit the 29er deraillure conundrum?

Yes, the 08 XT derailleur - as well as the other new XT parts - is readily available. It is no coincidence as Shimano is paying attention to the needs of the 29" wheel market. They met with other product managers at the 06 Interbike show to talk specifically about special needs 29" wheel frames present. You should have recently noticed that they introduced an XT 29" wheelset - very nice!

[MMcG]

I met Ted and his wife and their dog Daisy today and picked up the Bicycle. It is a beautiful frame. Got home and gave it a brief 10 minute ride up the road and down some dirt and back up again. This bike is Nimble! More to come.

[Aktion]

I met Ted and his wife and their dog Daisy today and picked up the Bicycle. It is a beautiful frame. Got home and gave it a brief 10 minute ride up the road and down some dirt and back up again. This bike is Nimble! More to come.

Great.

:clapping:

[MMcG]

Ted - did you have a chance to measure bb height or bb drop?

Oh woops I see a 2.25 bb drop - what would that equate to in terms of bb height (obviously this would change depending on fork and tire choices)

Also - what is the seat tube angle for this 17" frame?

[Ted Wojcik]

B.B. height relates to tire size. Drop is how far the B.B. is below a straight line from axle to axle. with the tires that are on the bike now, B.B. height is 12.380" without a rider on the bike. It will change with different weight riders and/or fork pre-load.

[MMcG]

Thanks Ted!

[donkeyWC]

are there any pictures of the bike with the rigid fork and will the ride test include feedback with it rigid?

[ottoreni]

Any riding done this weekend?

Really curious to hear ride reports on this frame.

Kind of confused about a few things.
The HA seems steep....is it based on an 80mm or 100mm travel fork? And what offset fork, Reba or the Fox, is the HA designed around?. Looks like it would be twitchy with that HA and the new the 44mm offset.

Also being 5'9" with a 32" inseam, the medium seems to have a looong top tube 24" ETT. I currently ride medium frames with @ a 23.5 ETT. This would drop me to the small, which seems to have a shorter top-tube, but requiring a longer stem.

Lets hear those ride reports...it is either this or the EWR frame for me, too.

[Ted Wojcik]

The head angle is a bit steep in comparison to some other bikes, but what I tried to do is make the bike a bit more single track oriented. There is a lot more to how a bike steers than the head angle. One of the things that must be taken into account is the rotational mass of the wheels. That is what provides the gyroscopic forces to add stability to the bike when it is ridden. In the last few years there has been a trend to slow down the steering on off road hardtails. I'm not of the belief that slow, sluggish frames are the best for single track. The long top tube does a couple of things, it makes the front center longer to keep your toes away from the bigger wheels and it allows a short stem to bring the weight of the handlebar/controls closer to the steering axis. This will allow the frame to have a light steering feel and reduce the pendulum affect of having all that weight out in front of the steering axis. The Fox fork has a 44mm offset and is 80mm travel. If you want to slow things down a bit, a Reba or White Bros. with 100mm of travel will slow things down. This is a very versatile frame, it can be converted to single speed without making it look like it has "warts" all over it, the chainstay length is adjustable to have an influence on steering, and fork selection will determine the over all characteristics. FYI, the vast majority of my clients have desired a 29er frame with quicker steering. The other thing to consider is it is "Ted Wojcik Custom Bicycles" That means my jigs are adjustable, you can have a frame made however you want it. This is how the readers of Ride Monkey wanted to see the frame end up.

[MMcG]

Any riding done this weekend?

Really curious to hear ride reports on this frame.

Kind of confused about a few things.
The HA seems steep....is it based on an 80mm or 100mm travel fork? And what offset fork, Reba or the Fox, is the HA designed around?. Looks like it would be twitchy with that HA and the new the 44mm offset.

Also being 5'9" with a 32" inseam, the medium seems to have a looong top tube 24" ETT. I currently ride medium frames with @ a 23.5 ETT. This would drop me to the small, which seems to have a shorter top-tube, but requiring a longer stem.

Lets hear those ride reports...it is either this or the EWR frame for me, too.

I'll add a few things to what Ted has to say on the Monkey Butt.

I'm 5'9" with a 30" pants inseam and this frame fits me well with the 70mm stem that Ted installed on the bike and the straight Thomson - cockpit feels good and comfortable but not too stretched out.

With the 80mm Fox fork with 44mm of offset the bike is very nimble - would handle tight twisties extremely well. Almost akin to an 29er XC bike. Yet it feels stable on the descents I took (although I haven't taken it through any super duper steep chutes or anything).

I would say that a 100mm Fox would also work excellent on this bike, as would a 100 White Brothers. If you wanted a front end that was a little less quick - then either an 80mm Reba or 100mm Reba could achieve that feel.

Bottom bracket height is excellent and the short stays are great for keeping the nimble feeling of the bike yet allowing for super solid climbing traction.

The bike is out on "loan" to a Central CT test pilot and I'm awaiting his feedback. He's owns a Carl Strong 29er, a SofaKing 29er and previously owned an IF 29er so his feedback should be excellent information to relay back to Ted.

Stay tuned.

Mark

[ottoreni]

Well it looks like I'd end up needing a medium with a 70 to 80mm stem.

What are standover measurements for the medium and the small?

The HA can be slackened by using a 100mm fork. My understanding is that would equate to roughly a1 degree slackening of the HA. Looking at the frame pictures I cannot make out if it has gusset on the underside of the down-tube. Is there one?

Frame sure is purdy!:happydance:

Went looking on Ted's site, but don't see mention of the tubing used. :confused:

[MMcG]

I don't believe there is a gusset, tubing is columbus according to my emails with Ted

Not sure of exact standover measurements - but I'm right about your height and had no issues with standover. I was wondering about this myself before I met Ted to pick the frame up for our Central CT test pilots and there is a really sexy slope to that top tube. Standover clearance was not an issue for me.

The rider who has it now is about my height - I can ask him to measure if you need a figure quickly.

Cheers,

Mark

[Ted Wojcik]

The tubing is Columbus. The down tube is a 29er specific tube that I get from a frame builder's supply called Nova Cycle supply. It does not require the use of a gusset. There are two plates silver brazed on the down tube to add some thickness for the the threads to secure the removable dérailleur cable stops. The standover height is about 30 inches in front of the saddle. Because of the sloping top tube it depends on where the measurement is taken. The small frame would have a standover of about 28.5. Changing the fork to 100 travel with 39 mm of offset will increase trail about 1/2", depending on how much sag is used in the setup.

[Ted Wojcik]

I forgot to answer your question about the head angle change going to a 100 mm travel fork. It will change by 1.117 degrees. 70.883 would be the static head angle before sag.

[ottoreni]

Sitting and waiting..... any update or possible posting date on the updates.

[greenchris]

Sitting and waiting..... any update or possible posting date on the updates.

http://www.tedwojcikcustombicycles.com/featured.aspx

[MMcG]

Sitting and waiting..... any update or possible posting date on the updates.

Whatcha specifically waiting for regarding the Monkey Butt? More ride reports?

One CT Test Rider delivered it back to me on Wednesday. His thoughts were positive (with some comments that were base on his set up prefs - for example he likes really wide flat bars and this bike has low risers and he also runs his brakes "moto" style). Overall he was impressed with how it handled tight trails and also really thought the bike shined going up hill (great traction).

He's coalescing his thoughts into a more formal write-up and I'll share that here once I receive it.

I haven't had a chance to ride it since getting it back as we've been getting hammered with rain and trails are in no condition whatsoever for riding right now here in Connecticut.

Best,

Mark

[Jisch]

Hey Guys:

I guess I'm the second MB test pilot. I'll put together a more formal review with pictures, but here's my initial review.

I'm not a regular here at RM (I'm a regular at MTBR, NEMBA and Bikerag), so I'll give you a little background - 6', 34.5 inseam, 175lbs with gear. I've been riding MTBs for 20 or so years. I mainly ride a 35# Rocky Mountain Switch with a bash ring and a Maverick Speedball. I also have a Titus RX100 and a C'dale HT, but they see almost no dirt time - though the Titus does wear the studs in the winter, so its the choice when there's ice around. I love rocks, climbing, descending and generally ride to have a good time. I rarely huck, but I love to get air. I ride 3-5 times per week with Case, Snip, Middlesex and all the other CT rides in rotation. I have ridden a 29'er exactly once before for about 25 yards.

Enough about me.

I met Mark last night at Case in Manchester CT, its probably the place I ride most often, given my proximity. He had other stuff to do last night so I headed off on my own for a 2.75 hour solo night ride. I actually had planned on it being a short "shakedown" ride, but once I started, I kept going (a bit of foreshadowing for your literate types). I did the standard night loop out there out to the powerlines and back, with a few variations thrown in - I came down slickrock. The "medium" is a bit small for me. It has a 410mm post so no problems with the legs, but I would want a large for a little more cockpit - I don't think putting a longer stem on would be a good idea.

Mark warned me to not approach this with any preconceived notions, but I know that the standard complaint with 29ers is slow acceleration, sluggish turning and floppy turning at slow speeds - I was on the look out for that.

I freaking loved this bike and found none of those faults, at all!

Pros:
Tight curvy trails were a blast
The handling is very predictable
Like my Switch (unlike my Titus) I often forgot I was riding a bike, it has a telepathic kind of feel to it
I did not have the pending OTB feeling at all (unlike the Titus)
It climbs very well, the 10lb difference surely helps
I felt no flex at all, the bike feels really solid
No issues with pedal strikes or big ring clearance
I took it up in the air a few times, again very predictable and easy to control - I quickly remembered how to land a HT
Accelerates very well
I did some real steep rollers it handled them no problem, though I'm not used to having a seat in my gut :D
Sluggish, slow and floppy are three words that do not belong anywhere near this bike

Negatives:
I have to remember to stand up more - just used to FS, some jarring hits at first
The rear wheel jumps around a bit on technical climbs - FS advantage here - I seem to be out of practice on picking lines :D

What I'd change (not frame related)
I'd put a 100mm fork on it, 80 is not enough, though I wouldn't want to mess with the geometry
I gotta work with the fork more, but initial impressions are not good - it seems to have very poor small hit performance - even after letting 20 psi out.
The XT brakes suck, they squealed all night and seem much less powerful than my Hayes on my Switch
The handlebars are way too narrow, definitely need something wider

So I guess the bottom line - would I buy one if I had the funds? In a heartbeat! If you asked me yesterday if that was going to be my reaction I would have bet you my Switch otherwise.

John

PS - I did stub out on a bridge approach and fell over into a foot deep stream. It was a cold ride out from there...

[MMcG]

Hey Guys:

I guess I'm the second MB test pilot. I'll put together a more formal review with pictures, but here's my initial review.

I'm not a regular here at RM (I'm a regular at MTBR, NEMBA and Bikerag), so I'll give you a little background - 6', 34.5 inseam, 175lbs with gear. I've been riding MTBs for 20 or so years. I mainly ride a 35# Rocky Mountain Switch with a bash ring and a Maverick Speedball. I also have a Titus RX100 and a C'dale HT, but they see almost no dirt time - though the Titus does wear the studs in the winter, so its the choice when there's ice around. I love rocks, climbing, descending and generally ride to have a good time. I rarely huck, but I love to get air. I ride 3-5 times per week with Case, Snip, Middlesex and all the other CT rides in rotation. I have ridden a 29'er exactly once before for about 25 yards.

Enough about me.

I met Mark last night at Case in Manchester CT, its probably the place I ride most often, given my proximity. He had other stuff to do last night so I headed off on my own for a 2.75 hour solo night ride. I actually had planned on it being a short "shakedown" ride, but once I started, I kept going (a bit of foreshadowing for your literate types). I did the standard night loop out there out to the powerlines and back, with a few variations thrown in - I came down slickrock. The "medium" is a bit small for me. It has a 410mm post so no problems with the legs, but I would want a large for a little more cockpit - I don't think putting a longer stem on would be a good idea.

Mark warned me to not approach this with any preconceived notions, but I know that the standard complaint with 29ers is slow acceleration, sluggish turning and floppy turning at slow speeds - I was on the look out for that.

I freaking loved this bike and found none of those faults, at all!

Pros:
Tight curvy trails were a blast
The handling is very predictable
Like my Switch (unlike my Titus) I often forgot I was riding a bike, it has a telepathic kind of feel to it
I did not have the pending OTB feeling at all (unlike the Titus)
It climbs very well, the 10lb difference surely helps
I felt no flex at all, the bike feels really solid
No issues with pedal strikes or big ring clearance
I took it up in the air a few times, again very predictable and easy to control - I quickly remembered how to land a HT
Accelerates very well
I did some real steep rollers it handled them no problem, though I'm not used to having a seat in my gut :D
Sluggish, slow and floppy are three words that do not belong anywhere near this bike

Negatives:
I have to remember to stand up more - just used to FS, some jarring hits at first
The rear wheel jumps around a bit on technical climbs - FS advantage here - I seem to be out of practice on picking lines :D

What I'd change (not frame related)
I'd put a 100mm fork on it, 80 is not enough, though I wouldn't want to mess with the geometry
I gotta work with the fork more, but initial impressions are not good - it seems to have very poor small hit performance - even after letting 20 psi out.
The XT brakes suck, they squealed all night and seem much less powerful than my Hayes on my Switch
The handlebars are way too narrow, definitely need something wider

So I guess the bottom line - would I buy one if I had the funds? In a heartbeat! If you asked me yesterday if that was going to be my reaction I would have bet you my Switch otherwise.

John

PS - I did stub out on a bridge approach and fell over into a foot deep stream. It was a cold ride out from there...


I thought it might be cool to add a few visuals of what Case is like for readers who aren't from New England or CT in particular - here are some good examples of Case Terrain - Can you say rocky? ;)

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n60/MMcG25/McKillZoneCase.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n60/MMcG25/conqueringtheMcKillZone-1.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n60/MMcG25/Randee.jpg

Thanks for that initial write up Jisch. I look forward to your wife's comments as well when she has some time on the bike over the weekend.

[Aktion]

Thanks for the review Jisch.

MMcG, that looks like some badass terrain, looks like I'm coming down to CT!!!!

[MMcG]

Thanks for the review Jisch.

MMcG, that looks like some badass terrain, looks like I'm coming down to CT!!!!

Come on down! We could make a weekend of it. Maybe a Case/Grayville type of thing.

I'm surprised you didn't notice the FS bike I'm on in those pics. I betcha Ted could even remember who he built it for. ;)

[Jisch]

I just re-read my review. It sounds like I'm a shill for Ted W. I just want to be clear here that I am in no way affiliated with Ted (or anyone else for that matter). I am really impressed by this bike, that is all... and surprised that I am impressed by this bike. I didn't think I would like it at all.

John

[MMcG]

Regarding the fork - John - instead of taking PSI out - I'd adjust the slow speed compression dial until you get it to where you feel it is working the best. I don't think lowering the PSI is the way to improve the small bump compliance on this fork - I think it involves adjustments via the compression dial on the fork.

Also - does your RM Switch have 7 or 8 inch rotors on those Hayes Hydros? Maybe the combination of a smaller rotor combined with a larger diameter wheels gave you the impression you got about the brakes. Just e-speculating a bit, but I figured I'd throw that out there.


MJM

[Jisch]

yeah, I started by adjusting the slow speed compression on the fork, which didn't seem to do much. I need to spend more time on it to be sure.

I have 8" rotor on the front of my Switch, but 6" on my Titus (Titus has Avid Mechs). At the bottom of Case last night, I realized just how hard I had been gripping the brakes. I never get that feeling on my Titus or RM.

I'll let you know if I get something better out of the fork, I imagine I will...

John

[MMcG]

yeah, I started by adjusting the slow speed compression on the fork, which didn't seem to do much. I need to spend more time on it to be sure.

I have 8" rotor on the front of my Switch, but 6" on my Titus (Titus has Avid Mechs). At the bottom of Case last night, I realized just how hard I had been gripping the brakes. I never get that feeling on my Titus or RM.

I'll let you know if I get something better out of the fork, I imagine I will...

John

I sent you an email with set up instructions tips via the fox web site - that should help you out.

In fact I'm going to print those out and have them for other future test pilots - so they can adjust to their riding preferences.

Cheers,

Mark

[Jisch]

A few pics from last night's ride - I was by myself so all timer shots:

Top of Case Mt (every time I type that I chuckle - mountain, ha!)
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05923.jpg

I think the disappearing front wheel option is $200:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05928.jpg

A bit of messing around near the top of Birch Mountain (again ha!)
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05933.jpg

One of the hazards of timer portraits... I tried taking this shot 10 times, this was the best... which is not good.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05935.jpg

I'll incorporate these and more into a complete report.
John

[Ted Wojcik]

I want to thank those who have taken the time or are going to ride this bike. I welcome the feedback. There is such a big variety in rider preference in mountain bikes recently, I wasn't sure how the bike would be received. I tried to make this frame for the more experienced rider and I wouldn't be surprised to find some of the newer riders a little unfamiliar with the handling . The disappointment is the fork. Because Fox has an exclusive agreement with Fischer, I could not buy the fork as a manufacturer. I had to buy it through a local bike shop. I paid a lot of money for the fork. There has been so much enthusiasm centered around this fork, that I thought it was the way to go. As the testing goes on, we will try a Reba with 100mm of travel and a White Bros. to see how they compare. In general, Shimano disc brakes have been a headache, but I wanted to try a mainstream group. Maybe other pads will help. I'll try them later. Enjoy and lets keep the dialog going.

[MMcG]

Ted - I think the fork is going to be okay - just need time to keep fine tuning it.

I got a report from Jisch tonight that he made some adjustments to it after work this evening and it already felt better. So I think all it is with the fork is just taking some time with the various settings on it (there are several!).

Thanks for starting the thread here and for building the Monkey Butt. I've got two or three other guys (and gals) lined up for test rides and reports so stay tuned for more.

I think that Jisch and his wife will be a test pilot couple as she's 5'7" tall and can fit this frame as well. :thumb:

Cheers,

Mark

[ottoreni]

Nice to read a report. This is what I have been looking forward to :clapping: .

What is the chainstay length currently set to?

Umm, I'm a WB fork person myself.....so these Fox issues seem foreign to me.

Right now the only drawback I see in this frame, and it really is not a drawback but more a clash with my personal preference, is the sliding dropouts. With the experimentation I have done with my own frame, I am a disciple of short chainstays. I know I would set it at "17" and leave it there. The fewer bolts the less weight and possible hassle, but to achieve static dropouts I'd have to go the custom option...another $150:eek:

Keep them coming and thanks!

Andy

[MMcG]

Nice to read a report. This is what I have been looking forward to :clapping: .

What is the chainstay length currently set to?

Umm, I'm a WB fork person myself.....so these Fox issues seem foreign to me.

Right now the only drawback I see in this frame, and it really is not a drawback but more a clash with my personal preference, is the sliding dropouts. With the experimentation I have done with my own frame, I am a disciple of short chainstays. I know I would set it at "17" and leave it there. The fewer bolts the less weight and possible hassle, but to achieve static dropouts I'd have to go the custom option...another $150:eek:

Keep them coming and thanks!

Andy

Chainstays are at 17.25" right now fully geared with an Ignitor in back with plenty of mud clearance all around. It could go shorter if you went SS or 1x9 with this frame.

Also - I'd call Ted about the cost of a non-paragon frame. I know those paragon sliders aren't cheap and it may actually be less expensive to build with regular vertical dropouts. It would definitely be worth asking about in my opinion.

Cheers,

Mark

[Aktion]

Nice to read a report. This is what I have been looking forward to :clapping: .

....but to achieve static dropouts I'd have to go the custom option...another $150:eek:

Keep them coming and thanks!

Andy

We would wave that for different dropouts.

Give us a call.

[Jisch]

A bit more from today:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05972.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05974.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05973.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05968.jpg

A few pics from a ride last evening behind my house:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05938.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05939.jpg

Today I moved the seatpost down, let a little air out of the fork and moved the seat up on the rails so my wife could ride it. Its a pretty rare frame that will work for both me and my wife.

After getting over her initial shock at not having and rear suspension (pun intended) she too really enjoyed the ride:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05980.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05986.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC05996.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Jisch/DSC06004.jpg

... am I sold on the 29er thing? I guess I'd have to say I am. Its a thoroughly enjoyable ride. I felt immediately at home on the bike. Its stabile at speed, rails corners like no bike I've ridden before. I know Ted's intention is to make bikes that you ride in, not on - he hit it perfectly with this bike. Now I guess I'm not sure how much of the "goodness" is this bike and how much is the 29er, I guess I don't care.

After spending a few days with the Monkey Butt, I got on my Switch today. I was a bit concerned that I'd be disappointed with it, nope. It still an awesome ride. I guess it just goes to show there's more than one way to have fun on a bike...

John

[Aktion]

Great pics! Looks like you guys didn't get much snow.

I can't wait until my turn!

[MMcG]

Nice pics Jisch!

Nice summary too! As long as there are two wheels on some dirt and some rocks it is all good in my book!

I liked your comment about how the Monkey Butt railed corners. Some folks prefer a lower bottom bracket height for cornering ability. It is cool to hear that this thing still rips it with a 12" plus bb height. Railing corners and no pedal strikes = good things in this neck of the woods.

[Ted Wojcik]

Thanks for the photos and report. We still have a snow in the ground up here. It sure looks like there is some good riding in your neck of the woods. I would like to point out that it is hard if not impossible to predict how a bike is going to handle based on numbers alone. Over the years, whenever a frame came into the shop for repair or repaint, I would put it on the alignment table and see how the numbers played out. One of the things that was apparent was that alignment would be less than ideal and angles and dimensions where not always as published. It became easy to think that some specs produced certain characteristics. The facts are that the characteristics were not always produced by the numbers as published. I have done prototype and development work for some of the BIG companies. Shipments arrived from offshore and the bikes in the box where not as specified. Do you think that 50,000 bikes were returned because of this? Now you know what you see is not necessarily what you get.
Have you ever seen this? (specifications can be changed without notice)

[Westy]

Thanks for the photos and report. We still have a snow in the ground up here. It sure looks like there is some good riding in your neck of the woods. I would like to point out that it is hard if not impossible to predict how a bike is going to handle based on numbers alone. Over the years, whenever a frame came into the shop for repair or repaint, I would put it on the alignment table and see how the numbers played out. One of the things that was apparent was that alignment would be less than ideal and angles and dimensions where not always as published. It became easy to think that some specs produced certain characteristics. The facts are that the characteristics were not always produced by the numbers as published. I have done prototype and development work for some of the BIG companies. Shipments arrived from offshore and the bikes in the box where not as specified. Do you think that 50,000 bikes were returned because of this? Now you know what you see is not necessarily what you get.
Have you ever seen this? (specifications can be changed without notice)

I got a bike from a respected company that started getting bikes made offshore. It ended up having almost a 1" shorter top tube than advertised. It never fit me. Had constant back aches and ended up a frequent flyer OTB.

[Bullitboyz]

Talked to Ted about this bike earlier this week after my initial ride..
i told him I tried to consider the frame and not the components, cuz most, if not all of my negatives were based on the components' relation to the frame.
first what I didn't like about the components:

1) the bars were REAL narrow... i realize Ted's version of 'singletrack' is a lot tighter than most trails are nowadays.. maybe they're still old-skool in NH, but here in CT, bars that narrow and placed that high equals instability.. most noticed when standing.. but the narrow width even hurt it while climbing.

2) the rims on that C29ssmax wheelset are super skinny.. i thought I was going to hate the tires cuz they're only 2.1 Ignitors, but I was impressed with the traction and cornering.. unimpressive was the lact of support from the rims, lending to a squirrely feel on off-camber rock slabs..

3) I think the steerer needs another spacer cuz the headset/fork was knocking any time the front wheel left the ground.. during the ride i pulled the top cap off and noticed the steerer tube was right near the top of the stem, but i didn't have a spare spacer on the trail to try..it just felt like the headset was loose the whole time.

4) I was fine with the XT brifters and brake performance..once i adjusted the reach of the levers.

5) fork wasn't bad. I want to change it to 100mm.. the extra 20mm travel i feel will give the bike a better ride height plus the steering was plenty quick and would still be fine with a longer fork.. it would also help to 'lighten' the front end and help get your weight back for the downhills.


overall it feels like a nice 'trail' bike.. one you can ride all day every day.. not a racer feel and i don't know if i'd use it as a singlespeed, but it WAS stiffer laterally than i expected... it wasn't 'boring', but it definitely didn't have a 'lively' feel.. it was really neutral.. which i suppose is what made it so easy to focus on the components.. cuz the frame was just doing what it was supposed to do...who knows, it could be a completely different animal with a different build.

That being said, Ted I'll take this frame off your hands when you're done with it! :thumb:

that's my story and i'm sticking to it.

(current 29er ride: Sinister Simon Bar.. SS/Minute29 20mm/Kings/Delgado,JonesH,etc)

[Mtblucaso]

kool man

[dump]

Ted, this bike is SMOKING! Since I saw my first Ted Wojick back in 95, I've always wanted one...

[MMcG]

Update - I took the bike for a ride last Saturday afternoon before returning it to Ted so it can spend some time in Massachusetts at some New England Mountain Bike Association events and then I think it heads over for some guys at Mavic to put it through it's paces and for them to get some more time on their 29er wheels.

I really like the short chainstays on this bike. while climbing in saddle the rear wheel is tucked up nicely underneath you and it really propels you upward - a nice feeling compared with some other 29ers I've owned where the rear wheel always seemed to want to "slip out" a bit sort of defeating that whole idea that the bigger wheel provides more traction argument. Not so with the Monkey Butt - traction was superb.

I also did some "playing" around on rocks and whatnot and found the bike very easy to "wheelie drop" off of natural technical trail features. Again probably attributable to the short stays and overall good balance of the bike.

Slow speed handling was nice as well (with some wider bars - it would be even that much nicer I think).

The bike provided numerous smiles during the course of the ride.

Cheers,

Mark