Frame design

[donkeyWC]

ted,

is the fork straight gauge?

[Ted Wojcik]

Do to some time and resource constraints, I'm going to pass on the adjustable head angle on this frame. I'm going to try it on another frame in my line up that I will be talking about later. It is a dual suspension frame that can use 26", 27.5", or 29" wheels and a lot of other adjustments that should allow any user to dial in the geometry to their liking. It is a Freeride/long travel cross country frame that I have been working on for years. I'll unveil it here on Ride Monkey.
The rigid fork is built with taper gauge 1.0mm to .9mm tapered blades. They are 32mm diameter at the top and taper to 22mm at the dropouts.

[Ted Wojcik]

Here are the final dimensions of the Monkey Butt. I will be cutting and welding the frame this week and photos will be posted. Questions and comments welcome.93557

[MMcG]

The 2.25 inches of bottom bracket drop - what will that equate to approximately when you factor in the Exiwolf tires you used to get to that rear chainstay length etc?

[Psychic_Pimp]

Height at center of BB should be just about 12.29"

[MMcG]

Height at center of BB should be just about 12.29"


That's a good number. :thumb:

[Ted Wojcik]

Here is the Monkey Butt being cut and in the Jig. I will weld it tomorrow.93562

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[MMcG]

Very cool! Keep those photos coming. This is fun.

[eMcK]

How much stand over will that give you?

Looks great so far!

[MMcG]

How much stand over will that give you?



That's a good question.

Oh and can you tell us what tubing you are going with as well. Is it one brand or a mix of different stuff?

[Ted Wojcik]

No posting tonight. Off to a political rally. Photos and dialog tomorrow.

[MMcG]

Any Updates Ted? How's the welding going?

[Ted Wojcik]

I'm was going to build this with a sample tube set, but I have some issues some of the tube's dimensions (wall thickness at the ends are not as claimed). I won't have replacement tubing until Wednesday. Also, I have decided to make the frame a 17", center to top of seat tube to make it usable for a greater variety of riders. I'll be back Wednesday with some more photos.
MERRY CHRISTMAS.

[MMcG]

Happy Holidays Ted!!! Thanks for keeping us updated!

[eMcK]

Happy New Year all!

Waiting for an update!

[Ted Wojcik]

I will post some photos over the weekend. Holidays, customer work, and being stranded in Ct. by a broken fuel pump on my van have put the Monkey Butt on the back burner. It will be ready for paint Monday. I'm doing an interesting feature, removable cable stops for the dérailleurs. If you want a single speed, no ugly unused warts. Knees hurt, put your gears back on. I have made the seat tube a bit shorter to accommodate a larger cross section of rider sizes during the test period. Happy New Year.

[MMcG]

I will post some photos over the weekend. Holidays, customer work, and being stranded in Ct. by a broken fuel pump on my van have put the Monkey Butt on the back burner. It will be ready for paint Monday. I'm doing an interesting feature, removable cable stops for the dérailleurs. If you want a single speed, no ugly unused warts. Knees hurt, put your gears back on. I have made the seat tube a bit shorter to accommodate a larger cross section of rider sizes during the test period. Happy New Year.

Will the shorter Seat Tube have any impact on the TT length on that frame? What was the end result on TT length btw?

Ted - didn't realize you were heading back to CT over the holidays. Whenever you head back this way - please do give me a shout, and we could try and meet up for coffee or beers somewhere.

Happy New Year to you.

Mark

[Ted Wojcik]

Here are some photos before the frame goes for paint. The effective top tube length is 24". The shorter seat tube had no effect on this dimension. We were on a short leash with the trip over the holidays. We will be going back down in a few weeks and I will give you a call.

93695

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[hank]

East Coast purpose built 29er addressing real shortcomings of the platform. Nice work Ted-this is what we need to see! Not to mention the craftsmanship. Looking forward to the finish.

[Psychic_Pimp]

Is that an Exi Wolf in there? Is the tire clearance as tight as it looks with the sliders in the middle?

It's really cool for bike geeks like me to watch this take shape.

[MMcG]

lookin good! What paint scheme will the Monkey Butt receive?

Traditional Ted Wojcik signature white and red with a little black?

[Ted Wojcik]

The Monkey Butt is going to be black with a purplish red rear end. Details include removable cable stops for the dérailleurs so if you want to run as a single speed you don't need ugly warts on your bike. Slider dropouts allow chain adjustment for single speeders and chainstay adjustment to be as short as possible for tire clearance and front dérailleur clearance when using gears. There was a question on the board about the tubing, so some talk about the materials. There are a lot of things to influence a builder's tube selection. Strength, weight, ride quality, ease of joining, and cost. Also a builder is influenced by how straight the tubing is and is the i.d. and o.d. concentric? As I started this frame, I was using a sample tube set from a well known supplier and as the build went on, I found serious issues with uniform wall thickness in the butted areas of the tubing. Tubing suppliers are just embracing the special needs of 29er frames. The first thing is the down tube is very long and chainstays need a different shape for adequate tire clearance. Some of the tube vendors need to work on their manufacturing procedures to produce quality tubing in the different configurations required for 29er frames. The tubing I ended up with is supplied by Nova Cycle Supply. The top tube is 1.25" in diameter with a profile of .8X.5X.8 mm and the down tube is 1.5" with a profile of .8X.5X.8 mm The seat tube is 1.125" .8X.
.6X1.2mm with an external butt on the top. Seatstays are 16mm with a .6mm wall. Chainstays are .8 mm wall. If anyone would like to know more about the profiles such as butt length, transition length, or mechanical strength of the tubing, let me know and we can talk about that. It is an Exi Wolf tire. I'll be gathering up components for the build, most are new, but some will be stuff from other demo bikes in the shop. We will see what kind of changes need to be made and I will incorporate them in Monkey Butt frames for order

[DirtyDog]

When this thing is done, painted, and you have pics, we'll feature this as a front page news item.

[-dustin]

what was the decision on bottom bracket? just curious.

i'm pretty much sold on BB30 and SI cranks these days, for any custom frame i might have coming up. while i enjoy my Middleburns, finding a mid-level bb is pretty much impossible now. it's either $30 Shimano or $145 Phil Wood. yes, Phil is nice, but even I have a hard time spending that much.

[Ted Wojcik]

The frame has a 73mm English threaded shell. I will use a 2008 Shimano LX crank because that is what I have.

[MMcG]

Is the Tubing Nova brand? If so - what would it equate to in terms of the more known brands like True Temper, Columbus, Reynolds?

[Ted Wojcik]

I believe Columbus is drawing the 29er tubing for Nova. It has the same mechanicals as Columbus Zona tubing.

[jncarpenter]

Maybe it's the angle, but looks like the tire will contact the seat tube with sliders all the way forward??????

[Ted Wojcik]

During the initial layout I had a different tire on the wheel. There is plenty of adjustment to allow tire/seat tube/front dérailleur clearance to test the design.

[MMcG]

During the initial layout I had a different tire on the wheel. There is plenty of adjustment to allow tire/seat tube/front dérailleur clearance to test the design.

Ted,

Any sense of how short the chainstay would be if the sliders were all the way forward?


Would it actually be shorter than what you've listed previously?

[jncarpenter]

We actually used the WW tire & Kenda Nevegal as the standard for the minimum clearance with the sliders all in....I can manage a CS length brealy over 16.25". But, of course, this is with some custom configurations and no hope for a front der.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/jncarpenter/Wolfhound/S5000354.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/jncarpenter/Wolfhound/JC-build-162.jpg

[MMcG]

I was just wondering if with the sliders all the way forward if it would give a 17 inch or under Chainstay length. Reason being is that a 1x8 or 1x9 or 1xsomething drivetrain is a popular route for many folks to take these days.

[Ted Wojcik]

The total range of slider adjustment on this frame is from approximately 16.85"-17.6". I should have the last of the photos tomorrow night before the frame is painted.

[MMcG]

Looking forward to that next batch of photos.

[MMcG]

Any New News?

[MMcG]

Rumor has it that the frame is heading off to paint!

[Bullitboyz]

Rumor has it that the frame is heading off to paint!

so.... just "3 more weeks"?:banana:

[Ted Wojcik]

It's off to paint. Here are the last of the photos93821

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[Ted Wojcik]

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[Ted Wojcik]

Here are the removable cable stops93830

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[greenchris]

lookin good!

[MMcG]

Thanks for the new photos Ted. Looks sharp!

[Psychic_Pimp]

What's this lug? Derailleur mount of some sort? I've not seen the like before.



93827



Hmmm, the picture is of the knob on the seat tube above the bb. Just in case you don't want to click.

[pinkshirtphotos]

looks perdy cant wait to get one for myself :)


what were you thinking for pricing?

[MMcG]

What's this lug? Derailleur mount of some sort? I've not seen the like before.



Hmmm, the picture is of the knob on the seat tube above the bb. Just in case you don't want to click.

It must be to mount the front derailleur I'd guess - but I too hope Ted responds.

I like the downtube cable routing on it.

[ssmike]

Wow, what a fantastic thread. I just noticed it. Wish I would have noticed it when it began, as I have a lot of technical information (derailleur clearances, tires sizes/drawings, frame drawings...) that could have helped in the design process.

I noticed that there was a lot of talk on chainstay length. IMO (and especially for me personally as a very tall guy), one of the things I like about 29ers is that the chainstays tend to be longer than 26" wheel bikes. Because my seat is a mile in the air, I tend to sit more over the rear wheel. When climbing, the longer stay aids in keeping the front end down. The front end of a bike comes up when climbing when the rider's body mass is not over the center point of the bike (which changes going either up or down).

Great job on the frame, Ted. I really like your use of the rivet-on cable stops as removable stops. I will bet money (well actually, not real money) that that feature will soon find its way onto a lot of other frames.

Mike

[MMcG]

Wow, what a fantastic thread. I just noticed it. Wish I would have noticed it when it began, as I have a lot of technical information (derailleur clearances, tires sizes/drawings, frame drawings...) that could have helped in the design process.


Great job on the frame, Ted. I really like your use of the rivet-on cable stops as removable stops. I will bet money (well actually, not real money) that that feature will soon find its way onto a lot of other frames.

Mike

Mike - Glad you dig the thread. It is a pretty cool one isn't it?

Just to note - This frame is sort of a way for Ted to test things out a bit and get rider feedback on it.

So some of the information you have that you mention may still come in handy for "future refinements" from this test sled if you will - so feel free to chime in with those thoughts here since I bet many people following the thread (including Ted) might find benefit in hearing your thoughts.

Cheers,
Mark

[MMcG]

Those "plates" for the removable cable guides are pretty cool!

[Ted Wojcik]

The stub you see on the bottom of the seat tube is a boss needed for the Shimano e-type front dérailleur, commonly referred to as a nerblur.
One more advantage of the slider dropouts, adjusting chainstay length for handling reasons. I want to thank everyone for their input, the frame is out for paint and I can't wait to get it together for a ride. Hang in there while waiting and ask me any questions that pop up while we have some time.

[Psychic_Pimp]

Oh boy! New techno bike lingo!

So, would the nerblur be used in lieu of the bracket that would clamp to the frame via the BB, or in addition to?

Is it still possible to use a bottom swing clamp on derailleur with the nerblur there?

[Ted Wojcik]

During the design stage, I tried all the Shimano front dérailleurs in my shop and the e-type gave the most room, hence the nurbler. In case you are not familiar with the e-type dérailleur, it is mounted with a plate that goes between the B.B. shell and B.B. cup on the right side of the frame. that plate is stabilized with a screw mount to the nurbler. A traditional clamp on dérailleur certainly could be used by eliminating the nurbler, but there will be requirement for a more rearward position of the drop-out sliders

[MMcG]

Also - with that nerblur there - would there be a way that you could design a Ted Wojcik chainstop type of thing for someone who wanted to run a 1x9 set up? Sort of a Ted Wojcik signature thing to keep the chain from falling inward? That'd rock!

[Bevis]

Beautiful work Ted!

[Psychic_Pimp]

Thanks Ted. I had never taken a close look at a bike with an e-type mount. I did indeed wonder how the long flat mount was kept from flexing too much.

Next question; The chainstays look great. Nicely shaped without big divots in the bends. Did you have to do any shaping on those or do you get them in that shape?

[Ted Wojcik]

What a great idea for a chain keeper. when the frame gets back, we'll see what can be done. the chainstays are as supplied except for some slight indenting in the tire pocket.

[Thylacine]

Ted,
I think this is the first thing in history designed by committee that looks like it won't end up like this :

http://girtby.net/images/homer-car.gif

Kudos to you for that!

[Ted Wojcik]

Do any of you remember the Edsel? I must admit, I tried to steer this thing in a certain direction.
I'm waiting for the Monkey Butt to come back from powdercoating. The guy I've used for the last three years closed down so it is in the hands of a new shop. Trying to find a shop that wants to do high quality powder work in small quantities is hard, and if they are willing to do it, the costs are very high. The shop I use for liquid finishes is backed up with motorcycle work and is going slow anyway due to the exceptional cold temps we have been having. I'm sure this bike will be passed around, so it needs a very durable finish. I have some nice parts to go on it for the test.
The things that I think are noteworthy, removable cable stops to make single speed use look less like there are things growing on the frame and slider dropouts that allow some adjustment in geometry and easy conversion to single speed use. How well the New England geometry plays out remains to be seen. The project has generated a lot of dialog telling me not everyone is interested in quick handling single track frames. To each his own. I hope to have the frame back next week as well as a bunch of customer frames from the liquid painter. It will be a busy week and I will get it together as time permits.
Pictures will be posted when there is something to show.

[Stray_cat]

Ted,
I think this is the first thing in history designed by committee that looks like it won't end up like this :

http://girtby.net/images/homer-car.gif

Kudos to you for that!

Hehe Ann Rand would be so disappointed.

But on a serious note: The frame looks great Ted. I’m pretty excited for the geometry you have going on.

[FlyinPolack]

Frame looks great (as always) Ted!
I love the bolt on cable holders. very nice detail!

[MMcG]

Ted - care to share the color or color scheme for the frame's paint job - or are you going to keep that top secret?

Best,

Mark

[maddog17]

how funky can you get with a powercoat paint job? can you do funky cut in's and multi colors? i'm not too familiar with how powdercoat works. but the frame looks kick ass like all of Ted's frames. mine still looks good even after 10 yrs.

[ByStickel]

Aztec was designed by committee.

Ted, it's good that you asked opinions and then did what you needed to do. That's not going to please everybody, but this bike isn't meant to please everybody, either. I'm about to build a milder version of my own bike, one that will appeal to a broader range of people and will be more test-ride friendly. A true east-coast bike can be a big shock to someone used to normal 29ers.

[MMcG]

Aztec was designed by committee.

Ted, it's good that you asked opinions and then did what you needed to do. That's not going to please everybody, but this bike isn't meant to please everybody, either. I'm about to build a milder version of my own bike, one that will appeal to a broader range of people and will be more test-ride friendly. A true east-coast bike can be a big shock to someone used to normal 29ers.

Feel free to start a thread on that new ByStickel if you'd like to keep us updated through posts and photos. I'd be happy to sticky something like that as I think we all enjoy seeing a frame being produced from start to finished via words and photos.

[eMcK]

Why is my breath so bated?

[ssmike]

how funky can you get with a powercoat paint job? can you do funky cut in's and multi colors? i'm not too familiar with how powdercoat works. but the frame looks kick ass like all of Ted's frames. mine still looks good even after 10 yrs.

You can get very funky with powder. Check out Spectrum Powder Works (http://www.spectrumpowderworks.com/). They are doing amazingly complex schemes.

[ByStickel]

Feel free to start a thread on that new ByStickel if you'd like to keep us updated through posts and photos. I'd be happy to sticky something like that as I think we all enjoy seeing a frame being produced from start to finished via words and photos.

Maybe... sure y'all aren't going to be a little burned out on east-coast 29ers by then?

Maybe I should document the 29er rigid, independent drive, S&S coupling mountain tandem I have coming up.

You people like trainwrecks? ; )

[MMcG]

woah - that's a lot going on Steve.

Cheers,

Mark

[ByStickel]

Ted,

You taking the 'Butt to NAHMBS?

[Ted Wojcik]

The fork in here and I'm just waiting for the wheels from Mavic. It should be done Friday. Full report soon. I won't be at NAHBS

[jncarpenter]

So, I guess this was a different frame from the current 'butt?

http://www.tedwojcikcustombicycles.com/images/29er_1.jpg

[Ted Wojcik]

I'll have some better photos tomorrow as well as a write up on the build. Here are a few low grade photos to keep you interested until we finish the photo shoo and text/94117

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[DirtyDog]

Wow that's a great lookin bike Ted! Please post the final photos and writeup in a new thread so we can feature it.

[Stray_cat]

Looks great Ted. I'd love to see some more close up shots of the welds.

[MMcG]

That really shows off the short chainstays!! I like the red and black look too. Can't wait to see it in the real!