Long exposed steerer tube : legal/warranty issue ? [Archive]

LordOpie

10-27-2007, 01:33 PM

So the shop that's going to do most of the build says that they "can't" have more than 4cm or so of steerer tube beyond the headset. The wrench explained the physics of lever action... I knew all that, but wasn't concerned.

I explained that I've seen lots of set-ups with a long steerer. He understood, but it's not his decision and I can talk to the owner tomorrow. Ok cool.

I offered to sign a waiver stating that I understood the issues and wouldn't hold them liable, but then he said something about Surly bikes might have an issue with it.

Would they?

Is this really an issue? Have you dealt with shops that wouldn't leave all the steerer tube on? Of if you're a shop wrench, what's your shop's policy?

I measured the steerer tube : 305mm
headtube on 54cm : 182mm
headset takes up : 20mm ?

Leaving exposed tube of 121mm... that's about 8cm more than they're comfortable leaving on.

Any feedback, insights, etc. on this would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Steve

BikeMike

10-27-2007, 02:18 PM

I think it depends on the steerer tube. If it's a light carbon steerer, that's one thing. But as I remember it the Surly fork is pretty beefy, and 4cm is not that much (and though 120mm is quite a bit, it should be do able, but I don't have the math to back it up).

There's this, which was ridden all over S.America, loaded.
http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/5794/3541/1600/257614/DSC_0026.jpg

and this: (edit: can't get the image to work, so just click the link)
http://bp0.blogger.com/_POqC7po0XKA/RaWECZrMB1I/AAAAAAAAAAw/L7tTZhslpp4/s1600-h/DSC_0033.JPG

LordOpie

10-27-2007, 02:33 PM

that photo is awesome!

I'm pretty sure the whole fork is standard CroMo.

ire

10-27-2007, 02:41 PM

Surly can tell you, companies have varying stack heights recommended

Zutroy

10-27-2007, 03:39 PM

OrthoPT

10-27-2007, 03:47 PM

maybe you should promise that you won't do any front wheel hops, even if you will.

pinkshirtphotos

10-27-2007, 03:53 PM

is putting the fork on yourself an option?

LordOpie

10-27-2007, 04:01 PM

I think you mechanic guy is al ittle confused. 4cm is only 1.6 inches, that's barely enough for some stems.

Anyway the limit is on the spacers below the stem, not the total length. I know Easton's is a max of 50mm worth of spacers.

Every fork maker probably has a limit.

ah right, I miscommunicated that...

they only do up to 4cm of spacers. So, if a stem height is 5cm, that means I'm asking for 7cm of spacers.

As you said, Easton's is 5cm limit, so I think the shop wrench is just used to working with products like that.

Right now, it's just a road bike, but when I get to multi-day rides, I want to do this...

http://mgagnon.net/velo/potence-double.en.shtml

LordOpie

10-27-2007, 04:03 PM

maybe you should promise that you won't do any front wheel hops, even if you will.
Nice avatar!

uhh, what were you saying?

:D
is putting the fork on yourself an option?
No. I am learning this stuff, but I don't trust my lack of experience for a bike that I'll be zooming down a mountain pass at upwards of 55mph.

I have an email into Surly, so I'll see what they say.

OrthoPT

10-27-2007, 04:06 PM

Nice avatar!

uhh, what were you saying?

:D

I was telling you that "these are not the droids you're looking for..."

LordOpie

10-27-2007, 04:14 PM

I was telling you that "these are not the droids you're looking for..."
:busted:
"Must spread rep..."

OrthoPT

10-27-2007, 05:44 PM

The Force is strong with this one... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

ire

10-27-2007, 06:48 PM

OrthoPT

10-27-2007, 07:00 PM

throw on an 888 and run it as high as you want.

DirtyMike

10-27-2007, 07:03 PM

As others have said, Call Surly. Tell them what fork your putting on what frame, and get the specs. Sounds like your plan will be fine, but yes with lightweight frames and forks there are min and max stack specs.

johnbryanpeters

10-27-2007, 07:26 PM

Fox limits spacers under stem to 3 cm. I'm inclined to listen to them...

LordOpie

10-27-2007, 07:27 PM

with some forks Trek has a min and max stack height....I got worried when I heard this (I run no stack on two of my Scott bikes) so I called Scott and they laughed. Saying that was some excuse related to Hincapie's steertube shearing off at the Roubioux a while back

Minimum stack height? I'm not sure I understand why that would be.

As others have said, Call Surly. Tell them what fork your putting on what frame, and get the specs. Sounds like your plan will be fine, but yes with lightweight frames and forks there are min and max stack specs.

well, this frame and fork is anything but lightweight, so yeah, I'm not concerned.

-dustin

10-27-2007, 07:40 PM

call Surly...better yet, have the shop call Surly. we don't go longer than 40mm.

ire

10-27-2007, 08:46 PM

Minimum stack height? I'm not sure I understand why that would be.

They said you shouldn't run the stem against the headset, there should be a min of 5mm.....odd eh?

LordOpie

10-27-2007, 08:47 PM

They said you shouldn't run the stem against the headset, there should be a min of 5mm.....odd eh?

That is odd. Is there some sort of contact area difference between a step and spacer?

ire

10-27-2007, 08:55 PM

That is odd. Is there some sort of contact area difference between a step and spacer?

I dunno Treks reasoning, but the guys at Scott thought it was funny :)

DirtyMike

10-27-2007, 11:14 PM

well, this frame and fork is anything but lightweight, so yeah, I'm not concerned.

Yeah, I didnt think surly made much lightweight, Anyways, what fork are you running? I am curious, and still cant wait to see a completed pic

LordOpie

10-27-2007, 11:16 PM

It's the matching fork for the frame...

http://surlybikes.com/longhaul.html

You can't wait for pics? I can't wait to ride! :D

DirtyMike

10-27-2007, 11:35 PM

Dear god, there is no way that thing is gonna break. I have to wonder though, something i will have to research further of coarse, but i have heard from many, and seen in print before, and on the sizing charts, Optimal Seat to handlebar height drop specs. Makes me wonder if that has anything to do with spacer min/max.

P.S. I love the color of yours.

BikeMike

10-27-2007, 11:55 PM

Backup plan: If the shop won't set you up with it at all, you could always take the fork into another shop sans bike and ask them to install the crown race and starnut. Then you just slide the fork in place (assuming your headset is pressed into the frame), stack on the spacers, pop the stem on, and adjust the headset.

That two stem setup is a cool idea.

The advice to keep at least one spacer between the hs and the stem could be because some (quite a few, really) stem/headset combos don't seat well together, and in these cases having the intervening spacer helps with adjustment and distribution of the preload.

DirtyMike

10-28-2007, 12:48 AM

The advice to keep at least one spacer between the hs and the stem could be because some (quite a few, really) stem/headset combos don't seat well together, and in these cases having the intervening spacer helps with adjustment and distribution of the preload.

Like these ones, gotta have at least one spacer.

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=25335

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=25333

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=25337

These ones do need at least one spacer underneath so they will seat properly. Cool idea, making the threadless stems very adjustable

loco-gringo

10-28-2007, 11:27 AM

Why not cut it as it should be with a shorter stack and use one of these???

http://www.deltacycle.com/product.php?g=9

http://www.deltacycle.com/images/items/stemraiser.jpg

LordOpie

10-28-2007, 11:34 AM

Why not cut it as it should be with a shorter stack and use one of these???

You can't do a two stem set-up that way. Also, I have much less faith in stem risers than a longer steerer tube.

H8R

10-28-2007, 12:14 PM

Get a stem with a higher angle so it clamps lower on the tube but places the bars at the same height.

Done.

DirtyMike

10-28-2007, 12:25 PM

But its not neccesarily stem height he is looking for, he is looking to mount Two stems, for bag mounting and such, I like the idea. Seems really easy to set up, and seems it would work great to kep your bag below your handlebars

loco-gringo

10-28-2007, 02:17 PM

You can't do a two stem set-up that way. Also, I have much less faith in stem risers than a longer steerer tube.

With the right stem you could.

I'm not saying that it's bad with your fork, but it's a big lever none the less. Hincapie's was sheared off from force, which is how a metal shear works.

I love how Scott was so dismissive. It's retarded how mfgs will say such stupid things about it. Scott's answer tells me they don't know sh*t about materials or they could have seen the argument. Hincapie's fork was aluminum at the steerer tube. Trek also builds a sub 400 gram fork with an alloy steerer, so they aren't spooked by it, just the premise of no spacers. Most headsets wouldn't cause the shearing like a King would, I wouldn't think.

LordOpie

10-28-2007, 03:11 PM

I'm a little surprised that I got a response from Surly on the weekend, but I did...

Steve,

We don't specify any maximum amount of stack spacers you can use. Feel free to leave the steer tube uncut and stack 'er all the way up. The steel steer tube on the Surly fork is not even going to flinch at this. Most carbon steer tube forks and some aluminum steer tube forks will say you can't have more than x length of spacers. That ain't us. Go for it.

If your shop has questions, they're more than welcome to call. 877-743-3191

Cheers,
Eric Sovern
Surly Bikes

johnbryanpeters

10-28-2007, 03:16 PM

Nice!

DirtyMike

10-28-2007, 06:46 PM

Thats awesome. Was actually the responce i was expecting to hear

OrthoPT

10-28-2007, 10:14 PM

Schweeet!

DirtyMike

10-28-2007, 11:44 PM

Why does it look Like Obwan <SP> Is smoking a Doobie?

OrthoPT

10-28-2007, 11:51 PM

Why does it look Like Obwan <SP> Is smoking a Doobie?

"This is not the doobage you're looking for. Move along."

Tatooine doesn't really have that much else to do...

ire

10-29-2007, 12:32 PM

Thats awesome! They obviously build their stuff to last

OGRipper

10-29-2007, 03:45 PM

Glad you got the answer you're looking for.

As for a minimum stack height, any chance that was misinterpreted? Some manufacturers specify an amount that must be remaining below the top of the stem. As in, if your fork stops more than 5mm before the top of the stem, your fork is too short. Personally, especially for lighter carbon and aluminum stems I usually cut the fork a bit longer than my stack height and run a spacer on top of the stem, to help avoid cracking and deforming from the stem clamping forces.

r464

11-02-2007, 10:17 AM

Have you ever seen Sheldon Brown's Thorn?
http://sheldonbrown.org/thorn/images/thorn.jpg

OrthoPT

11-02-2007, 10:19 AM

Have you ever seen Sheldon Brown's Thorn?
http://sheldonbrown.org/thorn/images/thorn.jpg
OMFG! Where's the Incredibell and the light system?

LordOpie

11-02-2007, 10:21 AM

Insane! :D

Why don't all bikes mount the front brake that way?

Also, with cantis, do those brake-booster horseshoe-looking things work?

r464

11-02-2007, 10:21 AM

Click HERE (http://sheldonbrown.org/thorn/index.html) to read all about the Thorn if you want to know what all is happening there :)

OrthoPT

11-02-2007, 10:32 AM

Also, with cantis, do those brake-booster horseshoe-looking things work?

Yuppers, the brake boosters reinforce the brake posts so they don't bend so much when the brake is applied; yes they work quite well.