View Full Version : Will Manitou/HBS ever dig itself out?
The thought struck me last night as I was sitting on the crapper, thumbing through the Decline I got at Interbike...There is hardly any Manitou stuff left. I went through the mag looking for Manitou products on bikes (any bike in the mag...anywhere). I counted a grand total of three. 3 out of probably 50-75 bikes pictured in the mag. 1 was a Dorado from a 5 year old picture of ACC, 2 were Gold Labels on pro DJ bikes. Interbike 2008 showed nothing new at their booth. Is there hope? Is Hayes going to do SOMETHING with the brand, or let it bleed cash until they dissolve it? Manitou was dominating the OEM market 3-4 years ago...now they have next to nothing.
bballboy388
10-15-2007, 12:03 PM
thats because they suck :)
sanjuro
10-15-2007, 12:04 PM
Well, Rockshox was in a similar place about 5 years ago. They cleared up their research and manufacturing processes, and their stuff is tops.
Well, Rockshox was in a similar place about 5 years ago. They cleared up their research and manufacturing processes, and their stuff is tops.
This thought struck me as well, but SRAM was the driving force behind that (and RS hadn't pissed away their OEM market at that point)...Hayes hasn't exactly had a reputation for stellar products. To me it just looked like one horribly mediocre company buying another.
sanjuro
10-15-2007, 12:11 PM
You Dare To Doubt Me?
You Dare To Doubt Me?
Perhaps OGDMFG should purchase HB Group? The complete package!
Huck Banzai
10-15-2007, 12:19 PM
You didnt notice all the stroker variants? (Which are getting great reviews.) or the Dorado (New Dorado - Yes.)?
Check out some XC biks and AM bikes - Spiders, Minutes abound.
bizutch
10-15-2007, 12:28 PM
...Hayes hasn't exactly had a reputation for stellar products. To me it just looked like one horribly mediocre company buying another.
Hah hah...you been drinkin' from the lake or something?
That's a big ole bowl of hyperbole. :rofl:
Yeah...reputation for being the only company to come along and make disc brakes viable on a mountain bike. Terrible rep to have....:thumb:
Buying struggling companies and trying to help make them profitable...just horrible and nasty.
The only company to show up at pretty much every single race, NORBA or not, every single year they have been in the game...especially at events other teams thumbed their noses at...incredulous! :monkey:
I wasn't talking about Hayes, I was talking about Manitou...bringing back a 3 y/o fork for nostalgias sake in an attempt to prop up the DH/FR segment of their sales is pretty weak. It doesn't matter how much support they give racers, or how innovative they were back in the day, what matters is that they regain OEM market share here and now if they wish to stay afloat and not turn into a niche fork maker ala WB (or disappear altogether).
In OEM the newcomers/Taiwanese manufacturers are taking up the void that is left by Manitou...they may very well solidify their market presence and shut out HBS altogether.
bizutch
10-15-2007, 02:49 PM
I wasn't talking about Hayes, I was talking about Manitou...bringing back a 3 y/o fork for nostalgias sake in an attempt to prop up the DH/FR segment of their sales is pretty weak. It doesn't matter how much support they give racers, or how innovative they were back in the day, what matters is that they regain OEM market share here and now if they wish to stay afloat and not turn into a niche fork maker ala WB (or disappear altogether).
In OEM the newcomers/Taiwanese manufacturers are taking up the void that is left by Manitou...they may very well solidify their market presence and shut out HBS altogether.
You did see that tech explanation on here a while back from an employee ...that the new Dorado you saw is strictly a concept piece that has internals that are almost completely different than the old ones and that they built it up for their own testing with external pieces that were laying around....ala that "lockout" knob that isn't really a lockout. (run on sentence champ:clapping:)
rosenamedpoop
10-15-2007, 03:19 PM
^You are digging a very neat and measured hole for yourself B.
seth505
10-15-2007, 03:50 PM
yes, they shall rebound
MinorThreat
10-15-2007, 03:58 PM
...and compression.
frorider
10-15-2007, 04:59 PM
i heard the hayes execs were going to change the brand officially to 'manipoo'. this would enable search engines to find more of the relevant reviews.
jonKranked
10-15-2007, 05:08 PM
all joking aside, I think manitou getting bought out is definitely for the best. Hayes was kinda the first company that made hydraulic disc brakes a viable option. They kinda lagged for a while as companies leap frogged them, but they seem to be redefining themselves with the Stroker (based on initial reports at least). Manitou, for me, has always been a company I've really wanted to like, but just couldn't. When their stuff works, it works GREAT. And therein lies the problem - it doesn't always work. I've seen as many broken Mantiou forks over the years as I've seen broken deraillers and bent rotors. Ok that's a slight exaggeration, but you get the point. I think HBC has the abilities to really breathe life back into Manitou. For as much as I make fun of mantiou, I really hope that HBC brings the brand back.
Ozzer
10-15-2007, 06:02 PM
cool new stuff..
I wonder where Hayes stores the Pete's Speed equipped Be One?
I know where the Dorado Stool went... hmmmmm :think: ;)
mattmatt86
10-15-2007, 06:13 PM
Do you really have the Dorado stool? I wanted that thing so bad.
You didnt notice all the stroker variants? (Which are getting great reviews.)...
The El Camino's got great reviews as well. We all know how that story ended...
MouseMonkey
10-15-2007, 08:04 PM
I agree with Blue. Hayes is NOT a top-level company and won't have the budget or resources to turn Manitou around like SRAM did with RS. Just because Hayes were innovators in the market a long time ago doesn't make them great now - cough... MountainCycle, cough... I don't think they will survive another El Camino debacle.
Frankly, they shouldn't have been showing forks at IB (although I think the new graphics look great), they should have been showing cutaways and telling people how they have solved the Intrinsic Damping Exploding Cartridge Riddle. But you know, I don't think they have. And by the time they do, nobody will care because they will be dead and buried.
Too bad. They make cool stuff.
MM
bizutch
10-16-2007, 08:22 AM
I agree with Blue. Hayes is NOT a top-level company and won't have the budget or resources to turn Manitou around like SRAM did with RS. Just because Hayes were innovators in the market a long time ago doesn't make them great now - cough... MountainCycle, cough... I don't think they will survive another El Camino debacle.
Frankly, they shouldn't have been showing forks at IB (although I think the new graphics look great), they should have been showing cutaways and telling people how they have solved the Intrinsic Damping Exploding Cartridge Riddle. But you know, I don't think they have. And by the time they do, nobody will care because they will be dead and buried.
Too bad. They make cool stuff.
MM
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/q/e/bush_chicken_little.jpg
Just because Hayes were innovators in the market a long time ago doesn't make them great now...
:stupid:
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/q/e/bush_chicken_little.jpg
The end ISN'T near for Manitou quite yet, thanks to HB's deep pockets (please read more into the thread). However, it may get to a point where their brand manager/accountant gets tired of a massive loss-leader quarter after quarter...
Huck Banzai
10-16-2007, 09:23 AM
The El Camino's got great reviews as well. We all know how that story ended...
El Camino's got great reviews? As trail brakes - from day one they were known for boiling.
They still haven't figured out yet that they have thier arch on backwards - how are they going to dig themselves out?
They still haven't figured out yet that they have thier arch on backwards - how are they going to dig themselves out?
Seriously though, WTF is the point of doing that? Other then to need 10ft of exposed stancion, and create clearance problems, I'm just not sure.
Heath Sherratt
10-16-2007, 07:46 PM
...and compression.
With pedal platform
Heath Sherratt
10-16-2007, 07:46 PM
El Camino's got great reviews? As trail brakes - from day one they were known for boiling.
Worst brake ever made?
dexter
10-16-2007, 08:54 PM
Seriously though, WTF is the point of doing that? Other then to need 10ft of exposed stancion, and create clearance problems, I'm just not sure.
b/c its stiffer, lighter, and even w/ the 10mm of added height, stilll lower than 99% of other forks (not including travis dc's)
Huck Banzai
10-16-2007, 08:58 PM
Worst brake ever made?
Try them on a trail bike! Great brake.
Terrible DH brake.
Huck Banzai
10-16-2007, 08:59 PM
b/c its stiffer, lighter, and even w/ the 10mm of added height, stilll lower than 99% of other forks (not including travis dc's)
DT Swiss used the reverse arch too. Magura uses dual arches. And theres at least 1 other non-US brand that uses a reverse arch - Im going to need to think on that one.
psychobiker
10-16-2007, 09:06 PM
i was dealing with a warranty issue on a manipoo fork and one of the techs said it will get better that was the whole reason of the merger...sorry thats all the info of got... i did see the pics of the new dorado
xy9ine
10-16-2007, 09:13 PM
pace:
https://www.pacecycles.com/ProdIms/468.jpg
reverse arch is a solid design.
i still have a soft spot for manitou (i loved my old x-vert carbon, and my 1st gen slider was a decent fork as well) and hope they can turn things around. i'd be all over the air dorado if they can make the chassis work (finally). the potential is definitely there.
WheelieMan
10-16-2007, 09:39 PM
Seriously though, WTF is the point of doing that? Other then to need 10ft of exposed stancion, and create clearance problems, I'm just not sure.
The large amount of exposed stanchion has nothing to do with the reverse arch.
The large amount of exposed stanchion has nothing to do with the reverse arch.
Cool. Why then?
S.K.C.
10-17-2007, 12:18 AM
They did it just to piss you off Craig.
:biggrin:
It was discussed in one of their design meetings back in 03'.
reverse arch is a solid design.
It requires a longer fork and more exposed stanchion so the reverse arch doesn't hit the downtube.
Kind of self defeating.
Pip3r
10-17-2007, 12:08 PM
Cool. Why then?
well, look back to why was the arch ever put on the front in the first place? Obviously because of rim brakes, it needed to be. With the popularity of discs now, why should the arch still need to be in the front?
Manitou still has some great stuff it just needs to be polished up. My gold label fork is amazing, only thing I've had so far that has actually held up without a second thought. My Nixon last year was one of the nicest feeling forks I've ridden, and my Minute this year, while it is sticky on the top is super stiff for how light it is.
bizutch
10-17-2007, 12:36 PM
well, look back to why was the arch ever put on the front in the first place? Obviously because of rim brakes, it needed to be. With the popularity of discs now, why should the arch still need to be in the front?
Manitou still has some great stuff it just needs to be polished up. My gold label fork is amazing, only thing I've had so far that has actually held up without a second thought. My Nixon last year was one of the nicest feeling forks I've ridden, and my Minute this year, while it is sticky on the top is super stiff for how light it is.
as long as you never rider another Fox Fork, you'll be happy believing that....:pirate2:
seth505
10-17-2007, 01:48 PM
as long as you never rider another Fox Fork, you'll be happy believing that....:pirate2:
he rode a fox 40 before his travis:busted:
bizutch
10-17-2007, 02:16 PM
he rode a fox 40 before his travis:busted:
Off topic completely...but the memory of you hucking vertical off the pointy rock on flat ground at the NORBA Nat at Snowshoe right in front of the evil crew is still fresh in my memory bro...
WheelieMan
10-17-2007, 02:20 PM
It requires a longer fork and more exposed stanchion so the reverse arch doesn't hit the downtube.
Kind of self defeating.
The reverse arch does not necessitate having the large amount of exposed stanchion that is found on Manitou forks. The Travis for example, set at the lowest axle-to-crown height possible, has about an inch of clearance between lower crown and casting at bottom out. If the stanchions didn't taper to a larger diameter at the lower crown, I could lower the crown well over half that distance before the arch would be anywhere close to contacting the downtube. And my bike has a larger downtube gusset than most. There is also no reason why Manitou couldn't have raised the casting up. The distance between the seals and the top of the arch on a Manitou is much longer than on say, a Marzocchi.
gemini2k
10-17-2007, 02:22 PM
as long as you never rider another Fox Fork, you'll be happy believing that....:pirate2:
I had a 40, I like my travis much better! Plus I got the travis new for 400 bucks!! 1600? or 400? hmmmmmm.......(and currently testing out a 66sl on that same bike too)
Cool. Why then?
Since they realized their forks just sucked, that they decided to shoot for the Ugliest Fork award.
As someone pointed out, others are making a reverse arch fork. Yeah, but I won't buy those either.
Stiffer? I don't recall having stiffness issues with my Fox's or Zokes.
I think it was just a marketing ploy gone wrong, and now they're embarrassed to admit it.
Huck Banzai
10-17-2007, 04:30 PM
Since they realized their forks just sucked, that they decided to shoot for the Ugliest Fork award.
As someone pointed out, others are making a reverse arch fork. Yeah, but I won't buy those either.
Stiffer? I don't recall having stiffness issues with my Fox's or Zokes.
I think it was just a marketing ploy gone wrong, and now they're embarrassed to admit it.
Being willful and rationalizing can give you the answer you want EVERY time!
seth505
10-18-2007, 09:34 AM
Off topic completely...but the memory of you hucking vertical off the pointy rock on flat ground at the NORBA Nat at Snowshoe right in front of the evil crew is still fresh in my memory bro...
hmm I know what year you mean, but which rock and which huck? aha I totally forget
bizutch
10-18-2007, 09:35 AM
hmm I know what year you mean, but which rock and which huck? aha I totally forget
the one that ended your race run with a flat.
seth505
10-18-2007, 09:40 AM
aha, o crap that corner rock that gracia was jumping...yes now I remember. I actually have that on video, I jump it stupuid then ride on and my front goes flat and I fall over ahaaa
bizutch
10-18-2007, 09:51 AM
aha, o crap that corner rock that gracia was jumping...yes now I remember. I actually have that on video, I jump it stupuid then ride on and my front goes flat and I fall over ahaaa
Yup! One of the all time classic moves in racing. Everybody was like "Seth's gonna go for the win." Here you came and just went straight up in the air...then straight down. But it was the best vertical leap on a bike I'd ever gotten to see. :shocked:
FrontRangeDH
10-18-2007, 09:55 AM
I think the big thing is, it will take Manitou 1-2 years to bring out stellar products again but 4-5 years to change the persona/prejudices about their products.
John P.
10-18-2007, 10:04 AM
the one that ended your race run with a flat.
Holy crap, I remember that - I was standing right there! Too bad about the flat - the jump was sick, and as I recall, Seth was hauling ass on that course in practice and would have had a legit shot at the podium.
--JP
seth505
10-18-2007, 10:07 AM
aha thanks man, I believe you actually threw in a new tube for my front wheel as I stood really angry in the woods. Then I took off to go again for the hell of it and my chain broke off haha:shakefist:
bizutch
10-18-2007, 10:43 AM
aha thanks man, I believe you actually threw in a new tube for my front wheel as I stood really angry in the woods. Then I took off to go again for the hell of it and my chain broke off haha:shakefist:
Like I said...one of my best race run memories ever. John and the crew fanboying for you. Max elevation. A mid-race tire change and a mechanical...all in 1. That was the blossoming of a comedic relationship between E13, me, Jeremy and the hillbilly crew. :thumb:
seth505
10-18-2007, 03:19 PM
Like I said...one of my best race run memories ever. John and the crew fanboying for you. Max elevation. A mid-race tire change and a mechanical...all in 1. That was the blossoming of a comedic relationship between E13, me, Jeremy and the hillbilly crew. :thumb:
haha hell yes
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