View Full Version : Hillary's Health Plan
RenegadeRick
09-18-2007, 09:58 AM
Today I heard about Hillary's Health care Plan on the radio.
I heard how she would offer tax credits to individuals and small businesses. I heard how this would make getting insurance more affordable and how this would make health care affordable for all Americans. What I didn't hear about was how she planned to pay for all of this, so I am posting this here in hopes that N8 can explain it to me.
Here are some links:
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3321
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf
On page 13 (11 in printed version) of the PDF I finally found some description of how this would be paid for. 110 billion dollars derived roughly half from increased efficiency and half from repealing the Bush tax cuts. Some money would also come from business.
If this 110 billion were distributed amongst the 47 million currently uninsured, it would provide about $2,300 towards health care insurance. This is a sizable contribution towards the average cost of about $3,000 per person for health care insurance today.
Here are some of my thoughts on the matter.
1. If this is such a good plan, why not introduce legislation today? Why tie it to her presidential campaign? Could it be that campaign promises are worthless?
2. If the increased efficiency savings don't pan out, Hillary could get that money from ending the war in Iraq (63 billion). What's that you say? Hillary is a warmonger? Awww, shucks.
What say you o wise and powerful :monkeydance:s?
:clapping: or :plthumbsdown:
LordOpie
09-18-2007, 10:49 AM
I haven't done any research, but I'll still give my opinion :)
Credits and affordability is all well and good. It's a nice first step. But how can we call ourselves the best country on the planet without socialized medicine?
How is education, police and WiFi internet access a God given, USA approved right of every American... but medicine isn't?
I think the biggest obstacle to universal health care is the stigma of "socialized medicine." Americans often equate any from of government-backed health care with either a heavily-taxed socialized state a la Norway, or an exasperating wait-ridden system like England has.
Case in point, whenever this topic comes up at work, one of my more Right-leaning co-workers always says "I'll be damned if any government doctor works on me," a sentiment forged by Army medics.
I have attempted to explain that a single-payer government backed insurance program has the effect of leaving medical professionals to practice in the manner they wish, while improving access to, and streamlining the current mess that is the health insurance business. But his worry about "big government" blinds him to the fact that if it were not for his aptitude as an investor, he'd probably be in the same leaky boat (S.S. Uninsured) as many of his countrymen.
Now, there will always be waste in a government program, but as we have seen with Enron, Countrywide, and numerous other firms, the government doesn't have a monopoly on corruption and ineptitude.
LordOpie
09-18-2007, 11:19 AM
Wait times, poor medicine, etc...
Why couldn't an insurance company offer "premium healthcare". You pay more, get VIP treatment. You get to cut in line at the ER, see better doctors, etc.?
Those VIP people would probably be paying the same amount in the end as they do today. But now, no matter how much money you have, you still have to wait in the ER.
Silver
09-18-2007, 11:25 AM
Case in point, whenever this topic comes up at work, one of my more Right-leaning co-workers always says "I'll be damned if any government doctor works on me," a sentiment forged by Army medics.
Because an Army medic is and never was a part of the largest socialized group in the United States...
I think Americans are just stupid.
Whats funny is people think wait times and cost would go up...how could they?? Its typical to wait 4+ hours at our ER (unless your bone is hanging out), and cost is really high right now. I read an analysis (I was too lazy to read her proposal) and it said it was really similair to Obama (but she had it so everyone HAS to have coverage) and Edwards. I don't know what the best route is, but somethings gotta change.
RenegadeRick
09-18-2007, 11:29 AM
Hillary addresses both Nig1 and Loopie's concerns in her plan. Maybe you should review the links.
Aside from my 2 concerns, it sounds quite reasonable. Even to a capitalist :monkey: like myself.
Why do we need to elect her and get more war for oil and Israel in order to get a decent health plan for America?
Spero
09-18-2007, 11:32 AM
Wait times, poor medicine, etc...
Why couldn't an insurance company offer "premium healthcare". You pay more, get VIP treatment. You get to cut in line at the ER, see better doctors, etc.?
Those VIP people would probably be paying the same amount in the end as they do today. But now, no matter how much money you have, you still have to wait in the ER.
I don't think the benefits provided by a 'premium' service would be worth what someone would have to pay for a system like that to work.
The people who could afford it would simply hire one of the many private physicians that leave the system because they make a fraction of what they did before.
The problem with health care in this country is only partially the government's fault. Every asshole who gets a runny nose when they mow their lawn thinks they need a drug for asthma. Every asshole who has a bad night in bed thinks they need a drug to get a boner. These pharmaceutical companies play this up to the extreme. Lawyers sue the pharmaceutical companies and doctors every chance they get. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies charge exorbitant fees for their products and services because they have to buy huge insurance policies to protect against lawyers. And of course the insurance companies are on the take too.
Throwing a couple hundred billion dollars at the problem won't accomplish anything except making a couple hundred billion dollars disappear... and it will disappear straight into the pockets of the people who create the problem.
^^ Going along with what Echo said, drug advertising is driving up health care costs as well. I read an article (and spent the last 15 trying to find it) that talked about how a drug company will just slightly alter a drug when it's patent is going to expire and then rename, get it approved and then do a huge blitz of advertising to get people to switch. I think their example was Prilosec and Nexium. So instead of buying the cheap generic you continute to pay huge money for the name brand. It was something on the order of $50 per month vs $200
<edit> HA! found it!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20249591/
Spero
09-18-2007, 12:16 PM
The problem with health care in this country is only partially the government's fault. Every asshole who gets a runny nose when they mow their lawn thinks they need a drug for asthma. Every asshole who has a bad night in bed thinks they need a drug to get a boner. These pharmaceutical companies play this up to the extreme. Lawyers sue the pharmaceutical companies and doctors every chance they get. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies charge exorbitant fees for their products and services because they have to buy huge insurance policies to protect against lawyers. And of course the insurance companies are on the take too.
Throwing a couple hundred billion dollars at the problem won't accomplish anything except making a couple hundred billion dollars disappear... and it will disappear straight into the pockets of the people who create the problem.
:clapping: I'm with you on this one.
Throwing a couple hundred billion dollars at the problem won't accomplish anything except making a couple hundred billion dollars disappear... and it will disappear straight into the pockets of the people who create the problem.
Exactly! Socialized healthcare is only PART of the solution. People like to whine that if we go to a universal system, costs will still increase, and that you can look to European universal healthcare systems as an example, but the reason for these increases lie within our own healthcare industry complex of doctors, hospital corporations, big pharma, and insurance companies.
My not so humble opinion is to bludgeon the healthcare industry to death. It needs total and complete revamping. If that means complete nationalization, so be it. What needs to be understood is that there shouldn't be a monolithic healthcare "industry". Private ancillaries providing supplemental products and services is all right, but drug development and the actual act of healthcare should be in the public realm.
You don't have privately owned fire stations and hydrants in your city, do you? The same should apply to hospitals.
edit: Hilary's plan, like the dude on NPR said, is just a bailout for failed insurance companies. It's a sham...people compare it to required auto insurance, but you don't HAVE to own a car...
Westy
09-18-2007, 12:48 PM
As a side note we could reduce the burden on the healthcare system by legally beating anyone who knowingly shows up to work, flies on an airplane or is generally out in public while contagious and sick.
Ok it really wouldn't reduce the burden but it would have been really cool if I could have punched the fat troll like woman who was just coughing in my face.
jimmydean
09-18-2007, 12:48 PM
In Australia, you have basic coverage for everyone. If you choose, you can get premium coverage either through an employer or on your own. I know my folks had premium coverage through the university and it allowed them to see a specialist without going to a primary care first.
I think a lot of the systems in the world work rather well. The main issue in the US is that healthcare is a cash cow and nobody who proffits wants to give that up.
There was an interesting show on 20/20 or dateline or something the other day talking about "express care services" in places like WalMart where you pay a flat rate and don't need insurance for non-ER type care.
manimal
09-18-2007, 04:59 PM
my brother is a Dr, eye surgeon to be exact. I asked him about his opinion on socialized medicine and he explained the following. he did some missions work in s. america with some canadian dr's a few years back and they told him that the government pays them the same whether they do 50 cases per day or 10 so they have no incentive to work hard and earn more for their efforts. so instead of working their arses off like most young american doctors who will reap the benefits of the extra work, the canadian doctors would simply take off 2 and 3 months at a time after they filled their minimum governmental requirements.
so....that was his experience with some doctors who work in socialized medicine and he's obviously against it. i'm still undecided because i believe that my brother's $35k per month salary is a bit excessive but on the other hand, he did work his butt off through college, med school and residency so that he could do what he loves AND get paid well for it. i can understand the resistance to a drastic reduction in salary that would come with government control.
my brother is a Dr, eye surgeon to be exact. I asked him about his opinion on socialized medicine and he explained the following. he did some missions work in s. america with some canadian dr's a few years back and they told him that the government pays them the same whether they do 50 cases per day or 10 so they have no incentive to work hard and earn more for their efforts. so instead of working their arses off like most young american doctors who will reap the benefits of the extra work, the canadian doctors would simply take off 2 and 3 months at a time after they filled their minimum governmental requirements.
so....that was his experience with some doctors who work in socialized medicine and he's obviously against it. i'm still undecided because i believe that my brother's $35k per month salary is a bit excessive but on the other hand, he did work his butt off through college, med school and residency so that he could do what he loves AND get paid well for it. i can understand the resistance to a drastic reduction in salary that would come with government control.
Whilst I see your viewpoint and that you are currently undecided, to say that in an ideal situation we would automatically adopt the system of other countries is a fallacious argument used by many...On the other hand, if you were to use it, one could say "Is that worse than what we have now?"
Another point: You're a government employee...do you do the bare minimum just to keep from losing your job? I mean, I think that anecdote is true for a LOT of employees throughout the public and private sector.
But yeah. Healthcare should NOT be a cashcow...I've always felt strongly about this, but I now work as a courier for a hospital company and it really is all about the bottom line and how many dollars you can make for the shareholder/squeeze out of the customer.
the government pays them the same whether they do 50 cases per day or 10 so they have no incentive to work hard and earn more for their efforts.
I have a hard time believing this is the only model for socialized or partly socialized medicine.
Silver
09-18-2007, 06:52 PM
I have a hard time believing this is the only model for socialized or partly socialized medicine.
It's also mostly not true...unless maybe you are one of the guys working in a clinic in a rural community in exchange for having your schooling paid for.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/nr-cp/2002/2002_care-soinsbk5_e.html
Straight from the horses mouth:
Canada's health care system relies extensively on primary care physicians (e.g. general practitioners) who account for about 51% of all practicing physicians in Canada. They are usually the initial contact with the formal health care system and arrange for access to most specialists, hospital admissions, diagnostic testing and prescription drug therapy.
Most doctors are private practitioners who work in independent or group practices. Some doctors work in community health centres, hospital-based group practices or work in affiliation with hospital out-patient departments. Private practitioners are generally paid on a fee-for-service basis and submit their service claims directly to the provincial/territorial health insurance plan for payment. Physicians in other practice settings may also be paid on a fee-for-service basis, but are more likely to be salaried or remunerated through an alternative payment scheme.
And then, of course, you have the fact that Canada isn't the best medical system. France is generally thought to be the top of the heap.
manimal
09-18-2007, 06:56 PM
France is generally thought to be the top of the heap.
so i guess that a good medical system does not equate to good hygiene? ;)
and my brothers case is from a small sampling of the medical fields as these canucks were all in an eye specialty.
Inclag
09-18-2007, 06:56 PM
So will this like totally ruin Grey's Anatomy?
BurlyShirley
09-18-2007, 08:42 PM
Slowly Im beginning to hop on the socialized healthcare bandwagon. In theory. I mean, we've all been to the DMV and dealt with the 400lb power-tripping black lady with the attitude problem as we're simply trying to renew a license, and that's pretty awful....and when you think about applying that type of culture to healthcare wow.... but being the last major industrial nation on the planet without some form of universal healthcare is a little retarded.
yes, lets have the government do to health care what they've done for public education...
splendid idea Hillary... :disgust1:
(where 's the nut-kick smiley when you need it?)
BurlyShirley
09-18-2007, 08:51 PM
yes, lets have the government do to health care what they've done for public education...
splendid idea Hillary... :disgust1:
(where 's the nut-kick smiley when you need it?)
Do you only speak in bumper sticker?
Do you only speak in bumper sticker?
??
W
The President
Slowly Im beginning to hop on the socialized healthcare bandwagon. In theory. I mean, we've all been to the DMV and dealt with the 400lb power-tripping black lady with the attitude problem as we're simply trying to renew a license, and that's pretty awful....and when you think about applying that type of culture to healthcare wow.... but being the last major industrial nation on the planet without some form of universal healthcare is a little retarded.
i really dont see where we are worse off for not having socialized healthcare in our culture... give someone something for 'free' and they will abuse it until its broken or all used up or both.
the 400lb power-tripping black lady with the attitude problem
Seriously, do they just clone that bitch? It's ****ing standard issue at EVERY dmv I've ever been to, even in states that are 96% white.
i really dont see where we are worse off for not having socialized healthcare in our culture... give someone something for 'free' and they will abuse it until its broken or all used up or both.
How those roads treatin' ya?
I'm sure your real-estate business would be better off without sewage, water treatment, and fire departments.
Toshi
09-19-2007, 01:44 AM
i really dont see where we are worse off for not having socialized healthcare in our culture... give someone something for 'free' and they will abuse it until its broken or all used up or both.
what makes you think the system is not abused now? there's NOTHING more inefficient than having hobos and druggies with no regular primary care followup (and often with diabetes, heart disease, etc. in addition to their other problems) come in to the ER every few weeks because they're so drunk, they're blood sugar is so high, or that sore on their butt has festered so long that they were found down in a ditch.
fact the first: the ER is a horrible way to deliver primary care.
fact the second: county hospitals cannot legally turn anyone away, regardless of ability to pay. this is part of the reason why bills are so exorbitant for those that can.
fact the third: if we had universal health coverage then many of these wasteful visits would be avoided, and lives would be saved through earlier and more effective intervention.
/me has been working 12+ hour shifts at the county regional trauma center/ER the last 2.5 weeks and has seen all of this first hand.
Changleen
09-19-2007, 03:25 AM
The problem with health care in this country is only partially the government's fault. Every asshole who gets a runny nose when they mow their lawn thinks they need a drug for asthma. Every asshole who has a bad night in bed thinks they need a drug to get a boner. These pharmaceutical companies play this up to the extreme. Lawyers sue the pharmaceutical companies and doctors every chance they get. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies charge exorbitant fees for their products and services because they have to buy huge insurance policies to protect against lawyers. And of course the insurance companies are on the take too.
Throwing a couple hundred billion dollars at the problem won't accomplish anything except making a couple hundred billion dollars disappear... and it will disappear straight into the pockets of the people who create the problem.:clapping:
anyone who wants too see top quality gov healthcare (that costs billions of $'s) in action, should just visit your local VA hospital...
while they have improved over the last 5 years a little, most people who qualify to to there but have some other health care option will almost always choose the other option. sure, the va is better than nothing... but only just barely.
MMike
09-19-2007, 07:34 AM
Fact is, neither the US or Canada have gotten it right. Our system is nice in theory. But with the US system it's extremely attractive for a doctor to pick up and head south across the border because he can work for more money, in nicer conditions. Ergo, we have a doctor shortage. I don't have a primary care doctor. I can't find one that is taking new patients.
But then take into account everything that Toshi said, and it's obvious that both systems are broken.
And just so it gets included in this thread: MICHAEL MOORE!!
anyone who wants too see top quality gov healthcare (that costs billions of $'s) in action, should just visit your local VA hospital...
while they have improved over the last 5 years a little, most people who qualify to to there but have some other health care option will almost always choose the other option. sure, the va is better than nothing... but only just barely.
Since you're against socialized medicine, what is your solution? Would you rather things continued to go the way they are? It's a vicious cycle, as costs go up more people become uninsured and then uninsured people don't get check ups and show up in the ER with ailments listed above or worse. Eventually it will break the system entirely and then the government will have to do something.
ATOMICFIREBALL
09-19-2007, 08:05 AM
Hillary Clinton is a commie witch!
I do not want anything to do with socialized healthcare..Oh,they renamed it "universal healthcare.
People in those countires with this system die from waiting for bypasses,procedures of all kinds waiting over a year for initial visits even.
It's Crap!
The US is the only country where you can do what you farking want.
There is a network of patriots which will not let the communist party take over his country!
The US is the only country where you can do what you farking want.
There is a network of patriots which will not let the communist party take over his country!
Is that the same network of patriots which let lawyers and pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies take over this country?
MMike
09-19-2007, 08:17 AM
yikes
dan-o
09-19-2007, 09:44 AM
I support basic healthcare for those who cannot afford it on their own.
But, I have little sympathy for those who can afford it yet choose not to. If you can afford a DH bike/auto-x hobby car/fat sacks of ganj etc you can afford insurance.
I support basic healthcare for those who cannot afford it on their own.
But, I have little sympathy for those who can afford it yet choose not to. If you can afford a DH bike/auto-x hobby car/fat sacks of ganj etc you can afford insurance.
Last time I checked DH bikes and fat sacks didn't cost over $10,000 per year
...an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $11,500...
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
I support basic healthcare for those who cannot afford it on their own.
But, I have little sympathy for those who can afford it yet choose not to. If you can afford a DH bike/auto-x hobby car/fat sacks of ganj etc you can afford insurance.
Another fallacious argument.
Even if you CAN afford basic health ins, many times you can't get it. Why? Ever heard of a "pre-existing condition"? If you HAVE health insurance, it can be scary going to the doctor. Why? You're afraid of what your insurance won't pay, or that they'll pull something as a pre-existing condition and write off your whole policy, sticking you with the bill from the past year... I need to go to the doctor right now, but I know that my insurance company will try hard as hell to prove what's wrong with me is a "preexisting condition", then write off my policy for the past year and stick me with a $3000+ bill, and ALSO make me uninsurable through ANYONE. I'm holding out for my employer insurance to kick in in November and hoping the whatever doesn't off me before then.
It's not just being uninsured that's a major problem here. The whole fvcking system is a giant scam.
RenegadeRick
09-19-2007, 12:15 PM
Even if you CAN afford basic health ins, many times you can't get it. Why? Ever heard of a "pre-existing condition"?
Hillary's plan would outlaw pre-existing conditions, and force insurance companies to cover everyone.
Wouldn't that make the overall costs go up?
hmmmmmmm.......
Hillary's plan would outlaw pre-existing conditions, and force insurance companies to cover everyone.
Wouldn't that make the overall costs go up?
hmmmmmmm.......
Yes...like I said, it's a bailout for the ins companies, nothing more.
This article goes along with what Blue said, they can retroactively cancel your policy and charge you the portion they covered.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20186938/
It's BS IMO. They look for any reason to not pay out, even if it means the person could die or lose everything fighting the disease
Westy
09-19-2007, 01:13 PM
If there was universal healthcare I'd be living off my savings, travelling around and riding my ass off. Because I have a pre-existing condition I can never let my coverage lapse. If I change jobs/insurers the new insurer has to cover my condition after 18 months only if I never had a lapse in coverage.
I don't think "mutant ability to haul ass on a mountain bike" is a pre-existing condition they really care about dude.
SkaredShtles
09-19-2007, 01:30 PM
If there was universal healthcare I'd be living off my savings, travelling around and riding my ass off.
:stupid:
I'd live in the mountains doing whatever...
Univeral health coverage would allow me to become the lazy non-working mountain bum I've always wanted. :D
Jeremy R
09-19-2007, 01:36 PM
This article goes along with what Blue said, they can retroactively cancel your policy and charge you the portion they covered.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20186938/
It's BS IMO. They look for any reason to not pay out, even if it means the person could die or lose everything fighting the disease
I have been doing for this years, and the only policies I have had rescinded are from people who blatently lie on their applications.
For example, you check "No" to having diabetes or da sugar for the black folks and then as soon as your policy is issued, you try to fill a prescription for insulin.:twitch: Then they get surprised when they are caught.
The real issue in not rescinding policies, the real issue is that if you have certain health condtions, you get DECLINED. Its legal to say, "Your money is no good here, go away."
If you are self-employed and do not have access to group health insurance, you'd better be 100% healthly or you are screwed.
IMO, that is the first thing the goverment should try to correct as I see this problem come up constantly.
I have been doing for this years, and the only policies I have had rescinded are from people who blatently lie on their applications.
For example, you check "No" to having diabetes or da sugar for the black folks and then as soon as your policy is issued, you try to fill a prescription for insulin.:twitch: Then they get surprised when they are caught.
The real issue in not rescinding policies, the real issue is that if you have certain health condtions, you get DECLINED. Its legal to say, "Your money is no good here, go away."
If you are self-employed and do not have access to group health insurance, you'd better be 100% healthly or you are screwed.
IMO, that is the first thing the goverment should try to correct as I see this problem come up constantly.
Thanks for the info, nice to hear it from someone who actually works at an insurance company. My only knowledge is what I read.
Westy
09-19-2007, 01:43 PM
I don't think "mutant ability to haul ass on a mountain bike" is a pre-existing condition they really care about dude.
Psoriasis. It's not really a problem now but in 30 years it could get really bad and costs tens of thousands a year. I could easily pay out of my pocket for the treatments now but if I go uninsured for a single day in the next 30 years I could be screwed.
I'd live in the mountains doing whatever...
Univeral health coverage would allow me to become the lazy non-working mountain bum I've always wanted.
I wouldn't be a bum. I'd just live off of the money I've busted my ass to save over the past 10 years. The way it is now I'll just have to wait until I'm too old to do anything fun with it. :disgust:
Jeremy R
09-19-2007, 01:47 PM
Thanks for the info, nice to hear it from someone who actually works at an insurance company. My only knowledge is what I read.
Ooooo no, I don't work at an insurance company.
I work for my clients. I am a life and health ins. broker.
I help a lot of self-employed people get coverage.
And I see the flaws on all sides of the system.
Ooooo no, I don't work at an insurance company.
I work for my clients. I am a life and health ins. broker.
I help a lot of self-employed people get coverage.
And I see the flaws on all sides of the system.
So do you produce the insurance policy for a company, or working independantly shopping the client around?
SkaredShtles
09-19-2007, 01:53 PM
<snip>
I wouldn't be a bum. I'd just live off of the money I've busted my ass to save over the past 10 years.
Yeah - out here if you're in the mountains having fun you're a "bum" - it's a badge of honor. :D
The way it is now I'll just have to wait until I'm too old to do anything fun with it. :disgust:
That sucks donkey a$$. :mad:
Westy
09-19-2007, 01:54 PM
Yeah - out here if you're in the mountains having fun you're a "bum" - it's a badge of honor. :D
That sucks donkey a$$. :mad:
I just need to find a sugar momma that will slave away at work and provide me health insurance.
SkaredShtles
09-19-2007, 02:00 PM
I just need to find a sugar momma that will slave away at work and provide me health insurance.
You know - you should try moving out here and living in North Cherry Creek. I would imagine with all the cougars and desperate housewives that you should have *no* problems... :brows:
J-Dubs
09-19-2007, 02:05 PM
yes, lets have the government do to health care what they've done for public education...
No Child Left Behind cut 6 billion from the education budget in its first year, claiming inefficiencies could be better managed with less people.
Bush f'ed that up, now Hill can f this up following his lead.
dan-o
09-19-2007, 02:12 PM
Last time I checked DH bikes and fat sacks didn't cost over $10,000 per year
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
I'm self employed and pay over $12k for my family of four so I know what insurance costs.
I include myself in the statement of little sympathy for those who forego insurance for toys since I did that myself back in the day. I learned my lesson by having to pay off some staggering medical bills (ironically caused by enjoying those toys).
Jeremy R
09-19-2007, 02:20 PM
So do you produce the insurance policy for a company, or working independantly shopping the client around?
I represent all the companies and shop my client around to whichever plan suits his needs.
dan-o
09-19-2007, 02:34 PM
Even if you CAN afford basic health ins, many times you can't get it. Why? Ever heard of a "pre-existing condition"? If you HAVE health insurance, it can be scary going to the doctor. Why? You're afraid of what your insurance won't pay, or that they'll pull something as a pre-existing condition and write off your whole policy, sticking you with the bill from the past year... I need to go to the doctor right now, but I know that my insurance company will try hard as hell to prove what's wrong with me is a "preexisting condition", then write off my policy for the past year and stick me with a $3000+ bill, and ALSO make me uninsurable through ANYONE. I'm holding out for my employer insurance to kick in in November and hoping the whatever doesn't off me before then.
I'm 38 and haven't ever experienced any of what you describe. My 2yo recently broke his femur and my insurance covered all $18k in costs with my only expense being the $15 copay for each of the 6 visits (including ER). They didn't even question the changing of his body cast (a surgical procedure since he needed to be knocked out) due to my saying it, and I quote, "smelled like ass".
:stupid:
I'd live in the mountains doing whatever...
Univeral health coverage would allow me to become the lazy non-working mountain bum I've always wanted. :D
yep.
this is one of the many good things about the current system. forces people to actually *WORK* for benefits. no work, no coverage. if you elect not to get coverage that is offered thru your work, get sick/hurt, then suck it up and come out of pocket.
Toshi
09-19-2007, 06:48 PM
yep.
this is one of the many good things about the current system. forces people to actually *WORK* for benefits. no work, no coverage. if you elect not to get coverage that is offered thru your work, get sick/hurt, then suck it up and come out of pocket.
what about the legions of people who work but don't have employer-offered insurance, or at least not at an exorbitant price? do your contracted employees all have health insurance? do you even care?
furthermore, what if the bulk of health care costs were spent in taking care of the destitute?
my brother is a Dr, eye surgeon to be exact. I asked him about his opinion on socialized medicine and he explained the following. he did some missions work in s. america with some canadian dr's a few years back and they told him that the government pays them the same whether they do 50 cases per day or 10 so they have no incentive to work hard and earn more for their efforts. so instead of working their arses off like most young american doctors who will reap the benefits of the extra work, the canadian doctors would simply take off 2 and 3 months at a time after they filled their minimum governmental requirements.
so....that was his experience with some doctors who work in socialized medicine and he's obviously against it. i'm still undecided because i believe that my brother's $35k per month salary is a bit excessive but on the other hand, he did work his butt off through college, med school and residency so that he could do what he loves AND get paid well for it. i can understand the resistance to a drastic reduction in salary that would come with government control.
all i know is when i need medical attention, i want the best dr and meds money can buy. no way i want a dr who's salary is capped or the gov telling me what meds i have to take because of the costs.
i pay over $700/mo for some damn good blue cross/blue shield... although it suxorz for the dentist and eye doc. but i pay the diff out of pocket and dont worry about it.
I'm 38 and haven't ever experienced any of what you describe. My 2yo recently broke his femur and my insurance covered all $18k in costs with my only expense being the $15 copay for each of the 6 visits (including ER). They didn't even question the changing of his body cast (a surgical procedure since he needed to be knocked out) due to my saying it, and I quote, "smelled like ass".
It's not a sudden accident I'm concerned about, it's any long-term illnesses or conditions.
what about the legions of people who work but don't have employer-offered insurance, or at least not at an exorbitant price? do your contracted employees all have health insurance? do you even care?
furthermore, what if the bulk of health care costs were spent in taking care of the destitute?
i have to say that i pretty much dont care about the majority of these people.
i was there once but got my edumacation and moved up and out.
perhaps some sort of gov funded health care for the elderly and impoverished is a good idea... oh wait... that already exists... Medicare & Medicaid...
:rolleyes:
Toshi
09-19-2007, 07:12 PM
there are 40 million+ people who aren't poor or disabled enough for medicaid and aren't 65 or on dialysis...
there are 40 million+ people who aren't poor or disabled enough for medicaid and aren't 65 or on dialysis...
obviously they arent dying off if there is 40M+of them, so they have to be getting by somehow.
if you want to help them, then i suggest you pay for their healthcare cuz i am not going to do it.
perhaps they should consider moving on up to the canadian utopia or that uber mecca of excellent healthcare in cuba..???
obviously they arent dying off if there is 40M+of them, so they have to be getting by somehow.
if you want to help them, then i suggest you pay for their healthcare cuz i am not going to do it.
perhaps they should consider moving on up to the canadian utopia or that uber mecca of excellent healthcare in cuba..???
You deserve to get some horrific illness that's easily treatable at a hospital.
And then have your insurance drop you. :clapping:
I sincerely hope the housing market collapse wipes your sorry ass out.
You deserve to get some horrific illness that's easily treatable at a hospital.
And then have your insurance drop you. :clapping:
I sincerely hope the housing market collapse wipes your sorry ass out.
unfortunately for you, my spendy healthcare is top notch, and if the the housing market collapses... well i am a degreed electrical engineer with 20+ years of construction management. besides home building is more of my hobby so no big whoop if i decide tomorrow to quit doing it.
believe me, i'll be just fine.
:wave:
dan-o
09-19-2007, 07:32 PM
It's not a sudden accident I'm concerned about, it's any long-term illnesses or conditions.
I hear you, my younger brother was diagnosed schitzophrenic 15 years ago. Keeping him insured has been a bitch and his meds cost some serious coin even with insurance.
BurlyShirley
09-19-2007, 07:33 PM
i have to say that i pretty much dont care about the majority of these people.
Well that's pretty much the heart of the issue, isnt it? What else needs to be said? I seriously can never get enough of how the "love-thy-neighbor" christian conservatives lacking the very empathy that's supposed to define them.
"Im not paying for it" huh? I hope your god reads that N8.
Well that's pretty much the heart of the issue, isnt it? What else needs to be said? I seriously can never get enough of how the "love-thy-neighbor" christian conservatives lacking the very empathy that's supposed to define them.
"Im not paying for it" huh? I hope your god reads that N8.
i dont believe in god/God whatever..
you and toshi/silver/chanleen should get together and pay for masses of people between 18 and 65 who are either noninsured or under insured. a good place to start is by giving them say 60% of your income.
BurlyShirley
09-19-2007, 07:39 PM
i dont believe in god/God whatever..
Apologies for typecasting you, but, simply dont be such a social darwinist. Show some humanity. I share alot of the same concerns about people abusing and government waste, etc., but to simply say you dont care about the majority of these people is...I guess a sad indication of your moral character. Dont know what else to say.
Apologies for typecasting you, but, simply dont be such a social darwinist. Show some humanity. I share alot of the same concerns about people abusing and government waste, etc., but to simply say you dont care about the majority of these people is...I guess a sad indication of your moral character. Dont know what else to say.
unfortunately i know a lot of people who are uninsured and usually they work exclusively for booze/dope money.. they could care or less if they have coverage until they get hurt then expect us (collectively) to pay for their care simply because (we) have spent the time to get educated & work our asses off to move up the chain??
again, why should i care?
BurlyShirley
09-19-2007, 07:43 PM
i dont believe in god/God whatever..
you and toshi/silver/chanleen should get together and pay for masses of people between 18 and 65 who are either noninsured or under insured. a good place to start is by giving them say 60% of your income.
I would gladly pay much higher taxes than pay out-of-pocket the way I am now for some pretty average coverage. I'd also appreciate my tax dollars spent healing people rather than bombing them, personally. Why are you okay with frivilously wasting your tax dollars on that?
BurlyShirley
09-19-2007, 07:46 PM
unfortunately i know a lot of people who are uninsured and usually they work exclusively for booze/dope money.. they could care or less if they have coverage until they get hurt then expect us (collectively) to pay for their care.
why should i care?
I know alot of ****ty people as well, but lets not steretype anyone short on money for a time as completely worthless or dopeheads. I got into some debt by not having health insurance and I managed to get out of it pretty quickly. But if I'd gotten cancer instead of mono, Id be dead. Do I deserve death for having been low-income for a time?
unfortunately i know a lot of people who are uninsured and usually they work exclusively for booze/dope money.. they could care or less if they have coverage until they get hurt then expect us (collectively) to pay for their care simply because (we) have spent the time to get educated & work our asses off to move up the chain??
again, why should i care?
What you fail to realize is that the uninsured are causing your rates and health care costs to go up. This is an issue you should care about, unless you want another 75% hike in cost over the next five years.
I would gladly pay much higher taxes than pay out-of-pocket the way I am now for some pretty average coverage. I'd also appreciate my tax dollars spent healing people rather than bombing them, personally. Why are you okay with frivilously wasting your tax dollars on that?
bombing 'people' is a pretty broad description...
in general i am opposed to bombing people.
i'll make an exception for people who need bombed tho.
I know alot of ****ty people as well, but lets not steretype anyone short on money for a time as completely worthless or dopeheads. I got into some debt by not having health insurance and I managed to get out of it pretty quickly. But if I'd gotten cancer instead of mono, Id be dead. Do I deserve death for having been low-income for a time?
i was there once... i was working as an engineering intern and elected NOT to pay the $600/mo insurance premium and pocketed it instead. then i came down with bell's palsy and my (then infant) daughter had to hospitalized for 3 days... i learned the hard way that paying the premiums would have been a hell of a lot cheaper. i paid on those bills for 7 years until i had them paid off. Guess what? Since then i pay the premium.
should you have been obligated to pay my tab so i could continue to pocket the coin???
What you fail to realize is that the uninsured are causing your rates and health care costs to go up. This is an issue you should care about, unless you want another 75% hike in cost over the next five years.
i dont know what kind of sh!tty policy you have but you need to switch... my premium has increased less than 15% since 1996.
Toshi
09-19-2007, 08:04 PM
i dont know what kind of sh!tty policy you have but you need to switch... my premium has increased less than 15% since 1996.
either you were getting shafted in 1996 or you have some kind of magical policy. health insurance premiums have outpaced inflation soundly for many a year
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
In 2005 (the latest year data are available), total national health expenditures rose 6.9 percent -- two times the rate of inflation (1). Total spending was $2 TRILLION in 2005, or $6,700 per person (1). Total health care spending represented 16 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).
U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4 TRILLION in 2015, or 20 percent of GDP (2).
In 2006, employer health insurance premiums increased by 7.7 percent – two times the rate of inflation. The annual premium for an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $11,500. The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,200 (3).
i personally pay $1300 a year for single coverage, but it's the worst coverage in history, 80/20 in theory but more like 50/50 from what i've experienced. shelling out $200 for an ER visit WITH COVERAGE is not cool.
Changleen
09-19-2007, 08:09 PM
should you have been obligated to pay my tab so i could continue to pocket the coin???I think the points are:
1) The cost shouldn't have been so high in the first place
2) Everyone shares everyone's bills as a part of tax.
Extra insurance should not actually be required by anyone, only those who feel they want a extra-high level of service.
As an aside the best (most comprehensive / high tech / generally good) medical treatments I have received were in Menlo Park, CA and in Southern France. Insurance paid for the US incident, the UK/Euro taxpayer for the French incident.
either you were getting shafted in 1996 or you have some kind of magical policy. health insurance premiums have outpaced inflation soundly for many a year
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
i personally pay $1300 a year for single coverage, but it's the worst coverage in history, 80/20 in theory but more like 50/50 from what i've experienced. shelling out $200 for an ER visit WITH COVERAGE is not cool.
ok... i stand corrected... since 2002 i've had a 29% increase. big f'ig whoop.
i have a $250/person up to $500 max deductable and then pretty much 100% coverage after than aside from a $10 copay.
i been hospitalized, operated on and was out a $10 copay...
SPINTECK
09-19-2007, 08:21 PM
For a forum I usually respect for facts and objectivity I'm disappointed in the lack of numbers, especially from the engineer that supports the current system.
The real question is :
How much money goes to profit and dividend holders of healthcare companies and can the government do a more efficient job? What numbers did Moore claim to have?? 7cents of every dollar goes to costs of administration with medicare and 28 cents (or was it higher?) goes to profits and administration of our current healthcare??
I work for big pharma and you are kidding yourself if you think the middle class isn't paying the bill for the rich and the poor.
I'm always amazed by people in industry who are well educated and feel they deserve healthcare while the lazy masses and poor should die in the street- because that's what would happen if hospitals didn't take them in!
I think the points are:
1) The cost shouldn't have been so high in the first place
2) Everyone shares everyone's bills as a part of tax.
Extra insurance should not actually be required by anyone, only those who feel they want a extra-high level of service.
As an aside the best (most comprehensive / high tech / generally good) medical treatments I have received were in Menlo Park, CA and in Southern France. Insurance paid for the US incident, the UK/Euro taxpayer for the French incident.
so you are saying that although i could afford the insurance premium, under your system, i wouldn't have pay for it because the you and the rest of hte good people of where ever paid it for me???
i am eligible for this coverage even if i choose not to work my ass off and join the ranks of the un/under employed only-here-for-the-pot hippies??
For a forum I usually respect for facts and objectivity I'm disappointed in the lack of numbers, especially from the engineer that supports the current system.
The real question is :
How much money goes to profit and dividend holders of healthcare companies and can the government do a more efficient job? What numbers did Moore claim to have?? 7cents of every dollar goes to costs of administration with medicare and 28 cents (or was it higher?) goes to profits and administration of our current healthcare??
I work for big pharma and you are kidding yourself if you think the middle class isn't paying the bill for the rich and the poor.
I'm always amazed by people in industry who are well educated and feel they deserve healthcare while the lazy masses and poor should die in the street- because that's what would happen if hospitals didn't take them in!
Moore is a retarded jackass and the current system works fine for me.
You whiners can say its broken but neither i (nor my family) has has ever had an insurance problem since 1958 when my pops signed up with BlueCross/BlueShield. Aside from the rare incorrect billing.
SPINTECK
09-19-2007, 08:32 PM
so you are saying that although i could afford the insurance premium, under your system, i wouldn't have pay for it because the you and the rest of hte good people of where ever paid it for me???
i am eligible for this coverage even if i choose not to work my ass off and join the ranks of the un/under employed only-here-for-the-pot hippies??
yes.
and if you get a heart murmor due to an enlarged left ventricle from riding all your life, you would not be penalized.
some people can't afford childcare so they stay home to take care of the kids. some people try to make their dream come true and leave their job to start a business. These people too would be covered.
In Britan, you can pay more if you would like supplemental insurance, but few do.
SPINTECK
09-19-2007, 08:34 PM
Moore is retartarded?? and Bush is not?:)
Retarded or not, if the numbers are true and accurate it is a fair debate.
the current system works fine for me.
That pretty much sums up your argument, anything that benefits you is good, regardless of the cost to society. Ride the middle class as far as you can and when they finally break, don't bitch that you can't make a dime.
BTW....I have great coverage, employer pays full premium and a $5 copay with $1 prescriptions. You can't beat it....matter of fact....I have it better than you :busted:
yes.
and if you get a heart murmor due to an enlarged left ventricle from riding all your life, you would not be penalized.
some people can't afford childcare so they stay home to take care of the kids. some people try to make their dream come true and leave their job to start a business. These people too would be covered.
In Britan, you can pay more if you would like supplemental insurance, but few do.
sounds to that people who cant afford day care for their kids thereby staying at home shouldn't expect me (or the rest of us) to foot the bill for their indulgence. however, my ex worked for Dept of Social Services (read Welfare) for a number of years and if a mother "wants" to work and cant afford day care, the system has that covered by giving them day care vouchers. people on welfare are all can (and do) get on medicaid which is pretty much a gov supplied tax-payer funded health care plan that doent cost the users anything.
That pretty much sums up your argument, anything that benefits you is good, regardless of the cost to society. Ride the middle class as far as you can and when they finally break, don't bitch that you can't make a dime.
BTW....I have great coverage, employer pays full premium and a $5 copay with $1 prescriptions. You can't beat it....matter of fact....I have it better than you :busted:
great! happy for you. you just might work for the us postal service then??
now get back to bitching about how bad the system is that's covering your ass.
Moore is retartarded?? and Bush is not?:)
Retarded or not, if the numbers are true and accurate it is a fair debate.
it wasnt bush who said cuba has a vastly superior health care system to the usa.
yep... moore is a retard.
great! happy for you.
now get back to bitching about how bad the system is that's covering your ass.
The system is bad and, unlike you, I recognize that we would be better off with a different system. I ran my own business and had to flip for my own insurance and it sucked.
The system is bad and, unlike you, I recognize that we would be better off with a different system. I ran my own business and had to flip for my own insurance and it sucked.
i've done that was well.. yeah it sucks but know what? you work thru it and improve your coverage. but yeah, it takes time and effort... much easier for someone else do it all for you and let the gov handle it.
i recognize the system has its flaws and limitations, but i dont see anything i would give it up for at the moment.
i personally pay $1300 a year for single coverage, but it's the worst coverage in history, 80/20 in theory but more like 50/50 from what i've experienced. shelling out $200 for an ER visit WITH COVERAGE is not cool.
Sounds like mine, but I'm closer to 700 a year. It's terrible...two hospitals within 50 miles are covered. Keep in mind, I live in a 1.5million pop metro area...They're both renowned as being places you go to to get stat.
Changleen
09-19-2007, 09:05 PM
i've done that was well.. yeah it sucks but know what? you work thru it and improve your coverage. but yeah, it takes time and effort... much easier for someone else do it all for you and let the gov handle it.
i recognize the system has its flaws and limitations, but i dont see anything i would give it up for at the moment.How about essentially the same system, with the same quality of care (or maybe even a little better as the economics would push for cures not treatment of the symptoms) - but you don't have to pay insurance for it, and nor does anyone else? It does and can exist.
How about essentially the same system, with the same quality of care (or maybe even a little better as the economics would push for cures not treatment of the symptoms) - but you don't have to pay insurance for it, and nor does anyone else? It does and can exist.
for the last time...
I am NOT moving to Cuba!
ok... i stand corrected... since 2002 i've had a 29% increase. big f'ig whoop.
i have a $250/person up to $500 max deductable and then pretty much 100% coverage after than aside from a $10 copay.
i been hospitalized, operated on and was out a $10 copay...
Must be nice to be able to choose which health insurance provider to get raped by.
But speaking as one of the millions upon millions of people who work for a large, household name, fortune 500 company, who has steadily watched my health insurance go from very good coverage to completely CRAP coverage in the last 5 years, someone who WITH HEALTH INSURANCE had to pay almost $800 out of pocket for a relatively minor injury this year...
F*ck you. Your rich living in the clouds ass doesn't know SH!T about what it means to make a living as an average American. People like you are why this country will fall from glory.
Sounds like mine, but I'm closer to 700 a year. It's terrible...two hospitals within 50 miles are covered. Keep in mind, I live in a 1.5million pop metro area...They're both renowned as being places you go to to get stat.
$700 per year????
you spend more than that on freekin cable tv annually...
:rolleyes:
Must be nice to be able to choose which health insurance provider to get raped by.
But speaking as one of the millions upon millions of people who work for a large, household name, fortune 500 company, who has steadily watched my health insurance go from very good coverage to completely CRAP coverage in the last 5 years, someone who WITH HEALTH INSURANCE had to pay almost $800 out of pocket for a relatively minor injury this year...
F*ck you. Your rich living in the clouds ass doesn't know SH!T about what it means to make a living as an average American. People like you are why this country will fall from glory.
wtf? you are not owned by the company you work for. if it sucks as bad as you say, f'ing move on to something better. no one has a gun to your head forcing you to stay. christ, you sound like one of those asshat friends of mine who bitch about their wives and how they hate them and how they suck, yet continue to be married to them. your company is boning you because you let them bone you.
sorry no sympathy from me.
valve bouncer
09-19-2007, 09:32 PM
N8 you don't have sympathy for anyone, everything about you is "me, me, me". I don't hope you get cancer, you are cancer.
N8 you don't have sympathy for anyone, everything about you is "me, me, me". I don't hope you get cancer, you are cancer.
wrong-o dorkster; i have sympathy for people who are murdered thru no fault of their own
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/07/24/home.invasion.ap/index.html?eref=edition_us
dan-o
09-19-2007, 10:08 PM
Must be nice to be able to choose which health insurance provider to get raped by.
But speaking as one of the millions upon millions of people who work for a large, household name, fortune 500 company, who has steadily watched my health insurance go from very good coverage to completely CRAP coverage in the last 5 years, someone who WITH HEALTH INSURANCE had to pay almost $800 out of pocket for a relatively minor injury this year...
F*ck you. Your rich living in the clouds ass doesn't know SH!T about what it means to make a living as an average American. People like you are why this country will fall from glory.
You don't need to accept your employers ****ty coverage. If it's so bad buy your own; only then will you know how much it sucks not to have company subsidized coverage. I pay $1100 PER MONTH whether I'm sick or not.
Changleen
09-19-2007, 10:25 PM
$1100? What an absolute waste of cash!
$1100? What an absolute waste of cash!
no sh!t... for that kinda dough you can get a set of decent rims for your car.
fuk health coverage!
dan-o
09-19-2007, 10:28 PM
$1100? What an absolute waste of cash!
See my earlier post. In the month of july alone I would've paid $18k for my son's injury. Without health we are nothing.....that's the rub.
Some of you people really are f*cking morons. Miss the point much? So you think $1100 per month for health care is reasonable? You think my health benefits are the only reason I work where I do? Jesus christ open your eyes you idiots.
I pay A LOT more for my healthcare today than I did 5 years ago, and the coverage is not nearly as good. Stick your retarded heads in the sand and chalk it up to inflation if you want, but anyone with a f*cking brain knows that we're all getting screwed. Hillary can't fix it, and there isn't a politician or group of politicians in the country who can fix it either.
We have N7 gloating about how he's so rich it doesn't matter, and this genius dan-o acting like we should consider ourselves lucky that we aren't getting gangraped by bigger dildos. Where do you halfwits come from?
Some of you people really are f*cking morons. Miss the point much? So you think $1100 per month for health care is reasonable? You think my health benefits are the only reason I work where I do? Jesus christ open your eyes you idiots.
I pay A LOT more for my healthcare today than I did 5 years ago, and the coverage is not nearly as good. Stick your retarded heads in the sand and chalk it up to inflation if you want, but anyone with a f*cking brain knows that we're all getting screwed. Hillary can't fix it, and there isn't a politician or group of politicians in the country who can fix it either.
We have N7 gloating about how he's so rich it doesn't matter, and this genius dan-o acting like we should consider ourselves lucky that we aren't getting gangraped by bigger dildos. Where do you halfwits come from?
good god.. just admit you dont have the stones to find something better.
sure its easier to do nothing than it is to do something, i understand that, but complaining about your crappy bene's isnt going to make your company improve them because you are still there... whining & bitching... but still there. like always.
:plthumbsdown:
dan-o
09-19-2007, 10:52 PM
Some of you people really are f*cking morons. Miss the point much? So you think $1100 per month for health care is reasonable? You think my health benefits are the only reason I work where I do? Jesus christ open your eyes you idiots.
I pay A LOT more for my healthcare today than I did 5 years ago, and the coverage is not nearly as good. Stick your retarded heads in the sand and chalk it up to inflation if you want, but anyone with a f*cking brain knows that we're all getting screwed. Hillary can't fix it, and there isn't a politician or group of politicians in the country who can fix it either.
We have N7 gloating about how he's so rich it doesn't matter, and this genius dan-o acting like we should consider ourselves lucky that we aren't getting gangraped by bigger dildos. Where do you halfwits come from?
Why don't you sack up and control your own destiny? All you do is bitch about your job yet you stick around. Make a change or STFU. I don't want to pay $1100/mo but the benefits outweigh the cost and my wife's insurance options suck. If controlling my destiny makes me a moron then so be it, enjoy your cube of diminishing returns you entitled douche.
I don't want to pay $1100/mo but the benefits outweigh the cost and my wife's insurance options suck.
So why doesn't she change jobs and control her f*cking destiny you imbicile?
So why doesn't she change jobs and control her f*cking destiny you imbicile?
maybe she thinks that cost is worth it u dipshick
dan-o
09-19-2007, 11:03 PM
So why doesn't she change jobs and control her f*cking destiny you imbicile?
Because she was dumb enough to get a PHD in Art History and only works part time due to raising our two kids while being on the board of two organizations dedicated to helping underpriviledged kids.
Some of you people really are f*cking morons. Jesus christ open your eyes you idiots. Stick your retarded heads in the sand and chalk it up to inflation if you want, but anyone with a f*cking brain knows that we're all getting screwed. Where do you halfwits come from?
oh come on... if one of the duller tools in the shed can figure out the system then surely an ultra-ubber genius elitist like yourself can easily do the same.
:rolleyes:
SkaredShtles
09-19-2007, 11:10 PM
I think Echo must be drunk. :p
I think Echo must be drunk. :p
just what the hell are you doing in here? shouldnt you attached to bogey's sig block???
:D
I think Echo must be drunk. :p
I like this.
I hope some fvcker gets banned tonight, it's been a long time coming.
Tell me, asshat, why is the US occupying Iraq at present? Shouldn't they be able to "sack up" and take care of themselves, like the millions without insurance should in this country?
I pay $700 a year so that if I turn my back into a million tiny pieces on my bike/in my car, my family isn't saddled with hundreds of thousands in debt (instead, they just get tens of thousands - hooray 80/20 coverage). That includes absolutely no preventative care at all.
No other insurance company would take me because I had/have chest pain and went to the doctor for it...once. Hopefully the insurance my work provides will be more forgiving, but I don't have my hopes up...you see, I work in hospitals...
unfortunately for you, my spendy healthcare is top notch, and if the the housing market collapses... well i am a degreed electrical engineer with 20+ years of construction management. besides home building is more of my hobby so no big whoop if i decide tomorrow to quit doing it.
believe me, i'll be just fine.
:wave:
20+ years eh? That makes you at LEAST what, 45?
My ass someone will hire you for nothing more than peanuts. It's okay. You deserve FAR less, consider your worthless piece of **** ass lucky.
This one is for N8
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20201807/
A good article about a person with health insurance who loses it at an inopportune time and then ends up bankrupt after fighting cancer. Is this one of the millions that should take care of the themselves? Why should you care? You have "great" health insurance.
This one is for N8
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20201807/
A good article about a person with health insurance who loses it at an inopportune time and then ends up bankrupt after fighting cancer. Is this one of the millions that should take care of the themselves? Why should you care? You have "great" health insurance.
that's unfortunate no doubt, now post the one of the millions of stories where some poor person get cancer and their health ins co pays humdreds of thousands for their care which results in them beating the disease.
that's unfortunate no doubt, now post the one of the millions of stories where some poor person get cancer and their health ins co pays humdreds of thousands for their care which results in them beating the disease.
If my Mom makes it, she'll be one of them
If my Mom makes it, she'll be one of them
i've know people who've made it thru, so it is possible.
I sincerely hope she makes it.
:)
RenegadeRick
09-20-2007, 09:28 AM
Here I was enjoying my :popcorn: and then this thread went personal and sympathetic and well... pleasant.
I am sorely disappointed in you :monkey:s.
Hope your mom comes through OK, ire.
Sorry about getting all personal on everyone...although it did show N8 has some, albeit very little, compassion. I was just trying to illustrate that this is a personal issue to many people. I'm sure all of us know someone who has had cancer, or some other horrific disease, and think about the number of people w/o insurance that are struck with these diseases and will die for lack of care.
<edit> or people who could have survived had the disease been detected earlier...but wasn't becuase they couldn't afford doctors visits
well I do know for a fact that ppl with great insurance die from treatable cancer because they doNT want to go to the dr or they suspect somethingnis wrong but won't admit it by getting it looked at. Not saying $'s isn't an issue, but it sure isn't the only issue.
well I do know for a fact that ppl with great insurance die from treatable cancer because they do want to go to the dr or they suspect somethingnis wrong but won't admit it by getting it looked at. Not saying $'s isn't an issue, but it sure isn't the only issue.
Wow, I actually agree with you on something. Too many people pass up preventative care and screening for diseases. I heard, but haven't confirmed, that is $1 of preventative care saves $2 later (for disease treatment and such).
Here is a good article regardless of what type of plan you're for.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/11/BUG02O20R81.DTL
Toshi
09-20-2007, 10:47 AM
Wow, I actually agree with you on something. Too many people pass up preventative care and screening for diseases. I heard, but haven't confirmed, that is $1 of preventative care saves $2 later (for disease treatment and such).
savings vary wildly by disease, so there's no hard and fast rule. in general it's cheaper to intervene before someone is 300 lbs, type 2 diabetic, with congestive heart failure, cholesterol through the roof, a foot amputation or two, and COPD from smoking for 50 years...
:twitch:
savings vary wildly by disease, so there's no hard and fast rule. in general it's cheaper to intervene before someone is 300 lbs, type 2 diabetic, with congestive heart failure, cholesterol through the roof, a foot amputation or two, and COPD from smoking for 50 years...
:twitch:
so tell me again, why the tax payers of this nation should foot the bill for the multitudes of non/under insured dumbasses who want to live with their unhealty lifestyle choices?
so tell me again, why the tax payers of this nation should foot the bill for the multitudes of non/under insured dumbasses who want to live with their unhealty lifestyle choices?
You're already footing the bill for the dumbasses on your insurance who live an unhealthy lifestyle. I have coworkers who can barely walk they are so large. They walk three cubes and they are winded and guess what? My premiums help pay for people like that.
Toshi
09-20-2007, 11:20 AM
so tell me again, why the tax payers of this nation should foot the bill for the multitudes of non/under insured dumbasses who want to live with their unhealty lifestyle choices?
because we already foot the bill. did you miss my point about the ER being used as primary care, and how county hospitals cannot turn anyone away? decades ago we decided we would not let people simply die in the gutters. universal insurance coverage might just make this system a bit less costly.
Is there a disconnect with you N8, where you think everyone who has insurance is healthy, doing well and working hard? And people without are fat, stupid and lazy? You seem to paint this picture black and white when its far from that.
MMike
09-20-2007, 11:24 AM
Is there a disconnect with you N8, where you think everyone who has insurance is healthy, doing well and working hard? And people without are fat, stupid and lazy? You seem to paint this picture black and white when its far from that.
You're new. EVERYTHING is black and white with him. He's not bright enough to understand that there's shades of grey to everything.
wtf? you are not owned by the company you work for. if it sucks as bad as you say, f'ing move on to something better. no one has a gun to your head forcing you to stay. christ, you sound like one of those asshat friends of mine who bitch about their wives and how they hate them and how they suck, yet continue to be married to them. your company is boning you because you let them bone you.
sorry no sympathy from me.
Man your cocky... you have to realize that your current (but not for long) plush career in home construction orchestration has obviously desensitized you to a severe degree. (a bit heartless as well)
What do you think all your employees and sub-contractors have do deal with to make it buy, be able to show up on your jobsite, and ultimately make you all that fat lazy cash you reap from the sale of your specs or finishing of your customs.
What do you say about them? That you don't give a rats ass about them either?? You better, because without them, your broke.
When was the last time you had do bust your knuckles open tieing rebar in a foundation, or herniated a disc from rolling heavy ass rafters & joists, or fallen off one of your roofs??
When was it? My guess is not recently.
You better hope the bubble hasn't burst as bad as it seems to have. You're ****ed if it has.
Nobody is going to hire your old "engineering" ass for anything close to what you take in right now... therefore rendering you not rich enough to pay your lavish premiums.
By the way, after reading this thread, it seems as though the only one who is actually bitching is you.
See in the footing trenches soon sucka!
stevew
09-20-2007, 11:27 AM
You're new.
No, he was leulling before.
MMike
09-20-2007, 11:28 AM
No, he was leulling before.
Oh....he should know better then
No, he was leulling before.
I remember his character, what happened?
Oh....he should know better then
I do, but it still amazes me
stevew
09-20-2007, 11:39 AM
I remember his character, what happened?
Fear.
I believe with a new job, he changed his name and deleted most of his old posts. Also looks under his bed for the boogeyman....
Fear.
I believe with a new job, he changed his name and deleted most of his old posts. Also looks under his bed for the boogeyman....
lol:clapping:
Also looks under his bed for the boogeyman....
You can never be too careful :biggrin:
Is there a disconnect with you N8, where you think everyone who has insurance is healthy, doing well and working hard? And people without are fat, stupid and lazy? You seem to paint this picture black and white when its far from that.
well since the fact is that this nation is mostly obese, eats food that promotes heart disease/diabetes etc then -yes- i'd say the majority of the under insured are in that category as are most of those who work for their health benefits.
agreed, there is a narrow band of grayish in the middle but i dont see where socialized health care is going to vastly improve the system. i can see where it improves for the those without now, but i can see where it can degrade the system for the rest of us. but hey, at least we'll all get the same crappy care like in canada et al.
Toshi
09-20-2007, 12:55 PM
if you're allowed to keep your current plan if you choose, how again would this "degrade the system for the rest of us"?
Westy
09-20-2007, 01:02 PM
A friend of mine from the UK recently vacationed in the US. He bought a short term travelors insurance policy for his family as his European coverage obviously isn't going to help him here. He actually had a bad vacation and two of his children had to go to the emergency room. One from an ear infection and the other got smacked in the head by a branch while riding atop a double decker tour bus in San Francisco. He said the level of service he got was the same as at home but the big difference being he has had to spend endless hours dealing with paperwork. Our system socialized or not is just rediculous. Too many lawyers, too many people with their hands in the pot. One of the reasons we are losing jobs over seas, including to europe is the cost of health insurance. It still cost so much more for an American to get equivalent healthcare no matter who is paying.
Man your cocky... you have to realize that your current (but not for long) plush career in home construction orchestration has obviously desensitized you to a severe degree. (a bit heartless as well)
What do you think all your employees and sub-contractors have do deal with to make it buy, be able to show up on your jobsite, and ultimately make you all that fat lazy cash you reap from the sale of your specs or finishing of your customs.
What do you say about them? That you don't give a rats ass about them either?? You better, because without them, your broke.
When was the last time you had do bust your knuckles open tieing rebar in a foundation, or herniated a disc from rolling heavy ass rafters & joists, or fallen off one of your roofs??
When was it? My guess is not recently.
You better hope the bubble hasn't burst as bad as it seems to have. You're ****ed if it has.
Nobody is going to hire your old "engineering" ass for anything close to what you take in right now... therefore rendering you not rich enough to pay your lavish premiums.
By the way, after reading this thread, it seems as though the only one who is actually bitching is you.
See in the footing trenches soon sucka!
i'm just realistic. call it what you want though.
My subs carry their own insurance... they have a choice of paying the health care benefits to their workers or not. If they pay, then their profit is reduced, if they dont offer bene's then they make more. Some do and some dont. To me it makes no difference. I carry worksmans comp for my business and cover my own health care premiums.
as far as no one wanting to hire my.. what was it.. "old engineering ass" ... please tell that to the f'ing head hunter companies who send me crap several times a month.
If new home construction slows down then i'll pick up remodeling jobs and branch out into commercial construction and land development. If all that fails, then i'll sell off my holdings and get a part time job at Walmart and work my way up again.
i'm amazed at the lack of self confidence a lot of you in here have... must suck to be so totally helpless. Explains a lot tho about why you thing the gov should feed you, pay you, educate you, provide medical care, blah blah blah...
if you're allowed to keep your current plan if you choose, how again would this "degrade the system for the rest of us"?
so if i keep my current plan, why would i want to pay for someone else's?
Toshi
09-20-2007, 01:23 PM
so if i keep my current plan, why would i want to pay for someone else's?
same reason you pay for other peoples' clean water, roads, education (state universities and research grants to private ones), police and fire service, etc.
so if i keep my current plan, why would i want to pay for someone else's?
Dumbass, you already ARE paying for everyone else. Why do you think your fancy insurance costs so much?
Jeremy R
09-20-2007, 03:11 PM
Yep, I just love to get calls from people asking why their health insurance rates went up "even though they did not use it."
Its because you are in the same pool of insured people as Gluttonous Gary, Tobacco Tom, Liquor Larry, STD Stacy and Tanning bed Tina.
When you have a nation of unhealthy turds it does not matter what "system" you put in place, it is going to suck.
That's why even in this thread, there is no "plan" to really get behind and no candidate is really standing out on this issue, because no idea yet
that has been thrown in the mix is going to fix the problem.
My subs carry their own insurance... they have a choice of paying the health care benefits to their workers or not. If they pay, then their profit is reduced, if they dont offer bene's then they make more. Some do and some dont. To me it makes no difference. I carry worksmans comp for my business and cover my own health care premiums.
as far as no one wanting to hire my.. what was it.. "old engineering ass" ... please tell that to the f'ing head hunter companies who send me crap several times a month.
If new home construction slows down then i'll pick up remodeling jobs and branch out into commercial construction and land development. If all that fails, then i'll sell off my holdings and get a part time job at Walmart and work my way up again.
i'm amazed at the lack of self confidence a lot of you in here have... must suck to be so totally helpless. Explains a lot tho about why you thing the gov should feed you, pay you, educate you, provide medical care, blah blah blah...
It seems like you think all your subs are rich too. You act as if they are making extreme amounts of profit (like your ins. company is off of you). I got news for you.... THEY AREN'T!
I do my business in one of the wealthiest construction communities in this country, and guess what? Most subs and generals are walking an extremely fine line between being able to pay there company bills and filing chapter 11.
I assure you that if your subs do not have group plans for their employees, it's because they just can't afford it.
The head hunter's that hit you up will not be able to find you a secure job making the kind of loot that you're used to... better bank on that.
And as far as confidence goes, you're the one with a bail out plan that leaves you working for $7 an hour at wallmart.
Talk about helpless
Explains a lot tho about why you thing the gov should feed you, pay you, educate you, provide medical care, blah blah blah...
I think you missed the real point here. Most of us feel like we should be getting more health care out of what our government takes in.
If you can't relate to that simple idea... you shouldn't be posting in this thread.
Most of what you put up thus far is nonsense.
Too many lawyers, too many people with their hands in the pot.
Everyone wants to be in sales. Squeeze everything you can out of somebody else's hard earned dollar.
The paper work seems a little out of hand.
Toshi
09-20-2007, 03:25 PM
Yep, I just love to get calls from people asking why their health insurance rates went up "even though they did not use it."
Its because you are in the same pool of insured people as Gluttonous Gary, Tobacco Tom, Liquor Larry, STD Stacy and Tanning bed Tina.
When you have a nation of unhealthy turds it does not matter what "system" you put in place, it is going to suck.
That's why even in this thread, there is no "plan" to really get behind and no candidate is really standing out on this issue, because no idea yet
that has been thrown in the mix is going to fix the problem.
did you read this?
Here is a good article regardless of what type of plan you're for.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/11/BUG02O20R81.DTL
so if i keep my current plan, why would i want to pay for someone else's?
Why do you think you're paying such an outrageous premium?
Man your title rings true once more.
Why do you think you're paying such an outrageous premium?
Man your title rings true once more.
who says its outrageous?
i'd say its pretty fair considering the if I need something I can get it paid for no problem even if it cost far more than the $ amount i've paid in. If I don't need it then no big whoop... money well spent.
Secret Squirrel
09-20-2007, 04:30 PM
Wow...It's amazing you can function in life without being able to see more than 3 feet infront of yourself. Really....amazing.
Jeremy R
09-20-2007, 05:59 PM
did you read this?
Yeah, I just did.
I totally agree with the theory especially paying for preventative up front, but they are not really doing anything new.
Alot of people are doing the higher deductible/ HSA plan structure
with better benefits for preventative.
And that 24 hour hotline has been around for years.
It does work though. I have had a lot of clients comment on using the nurse line instead of going to the emergency room. (It still amazes me that people flock to the emergency for having the butt trotts or something over the weekend.) And they normally pay dearly for it, then do it again. A lot of companies have a $200 emergency room fee, but it is waived if you are actully admitted.
I like that feature.
But anyway, their theory is good.
Award good behavior.
I would like to see it pushed alot further actually, even if it means that I have to see fat people marching outside of businesses.
I don't like basically carrying the unhealthy people with my insurance premiums. If I make the effort, then so should they
Westy
09-20-2007, 07:51 PM
who says its outrageous?
i'd say its pretty fair considering the if I need something I can get it paid for no problem even if it cost far more than the $ amount i've paid in. If I don't need it then no big whoop... money well spent.
Obviously insurance companies don't consider wearing your sphincter as a necklace as a pre-existing condition.
apparently there are 40M who (for whatever reason have no insurance) but then again they can get medical care at the emergency room because we are all paying for it thru our insurance premiums.
so are these people who are uninsured with or without medical care???
make up your mind
SPINTECK
09-20-2007, 09:12 PM
apparently there are 40M who (for whatever reason have no insurance) but then again they can get medical care at the emergency room because we are all paying for it thru our insurance premiums.
so are these people who are uninsured with or without medical care???
make up your mind
They can not see a doctor w/out paying full price. They have no prescription coverage. Therefore they have no health care.
Why do you fight for a system that gives 30% of inefficiency to make rich people richer and hate the discussion of improving the system to help poor and working people with no coverage??
They can not see a doctor w/out paying full price. They have no prescription coverage. Therefore they have no health care.
Why do you fight for a system that gives 30% of inefficiency to make rich people richer and hate the discussion of improving the system to help poor and working people with no coverage??
show me the alternative then... which organization/politico has a workable plan?
post it up
SPINTECK
09-20-2007, 10:36 PM
I confess you nailed me pretty good. After some research I have found most industrialized countries have their citizens pay 10% for healthcare and the employers pay around 10%. Depending on the country, employes will provide Voluntary Health Insurance in addition.
I think I like the United Kingdom's the best b/c they have great hospitals, people I spoke to on my honeymoon loved it and you can receive care abroad.
References:
http://www.euro.who.int/document/OBS/hcs8countries.pdf
http://www.amsa.org/uhc/international.cfm
UNITED KINGDOM
104
1 INTRODUCTION
The responsibility for health care is devolved to the constituent countries of the United
Kingdom: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. In all countries, health care is
predominantly funded through national taxation. Within each county, the responsibility for
purchasing health services is being devolved to local bodies (Primary Care Trusts in England,
Health Boards in Scotland, local health groups in Wales and Primary Care Partnerships in
Northern Ireland). Primary care services are mainly provided by GPs and multi-professional
teams in health centres (under a capitated budget). Hospitals are mainly publicly owned with
independent trust status. Private hospitals mainly provide services to privately insured patients
or those who are willing to pay directly.
2 WHO BENEFITS AND WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?
2.1 Coverage
All legal residents of the United Kingdom are entitled to cover under the UK National Health
Service (NHS). In addition residents of the European Economic Area (EEA) are entitled to
care, as are residents and citizens of other countries with which the UK has reciprocal
agreements (http://www.doh.gov.uk/overseasvisitors/patientguide.htm).
In the UK, 11.5% of the population have supplementary private medical insurance (Laing and
Buisson 2001). Those most likely to have private medical insurance are in the higher income
groups (40% of adults with PMI are in the highest income decile compared to less than 5% in
the lowest) (Emmerson et al 2000). According to data from the General Household Survey
1995 12% of those between 45-64 years old had PMI compared to only 5% of those over 65
years old. PMI is also concentrated amongst those in the professional and managerial
occupations (of whom around 22% have PMI compared to only 2% of those in semi-skilled
manual and personal services). PMI policy holders are concentrated in London and the South
East of England where around 20% of the population have PMI. In Scotland and the North
the figure is as low as 5% of the population (Laing and Buisson 2001).
2.2 Benefits
NHS benefits are not explicitly defined. The National Health Service Act 1977 places a
general responsibility on the Secretary of State to provide services “to such extent as he
considers necessary to meet all reasonable requirements”.
More recently with the establishment of the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE)
recommendations are being made to the Secretary of State as to whether the NHS should
cover certain services for all of the population or for certain indications or defined subgroups
of the population. NICE is a special health authority and is accountable to the Secretary of
State for Health and to the National Assembly for Wales. Its decisions are based on analysis
of the costs and benefits of a particular technology by the Appraisal Committee
(http://www.nice.org.uk). NICE’s guidance is not yet mandatory though recent government
announcements suggest this is likely to change. The equivalent body in Scotland is the
Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network (SIGN).
Health authorities, with some discretionary powers, have generally made rationing decisions.
With the further shift towards local purchasers (e.g. PCTs) it is likely that some rationing
decisions will be further devolved.
The British National Formulary lists all drugs licensed for sale in the UK. It is not a positive
list of drugs, however it does indicate which drugs are not available on NHS prescription.
UNITED KINGDOM
105
Some products are excluded from NHS cover due to poor therapeutic value or excessive costs
(Section 8a of the drug tariff). Other drugs are only available on NHS prescription in
particular circumstances. There are hospital formularies and local formularies e.g. for Primary
Care Trusts (PCTs) but no national formulary in the UK.
3 WHO PAYS AND HOW MUCH?
3.1 Taxation
Direct taxes are levied at the following rates: 10% (on first GBP 1880 of taxable income),
22% (GBP 1881–GBP 29 400) and 40% (over GBP 29 400) (http://www.inlandrevenue.
gov.uk/rates/it.htm). The standard rate of value added tax (VAT) is 17.5%. Certain goods and
services are zero rated or reduced rate (5%).
Rates of local taxation (council tax) vary between local authorities and are banded according
to the value of the property within authorities. Some exemptions apply depending on the
status of the occupiers (e.g. students, single occupants, second home). These revenues are not
used to fund health care but do fund social services including home care and residential care
for the elderly.
The progressivity of the taxes used for health care – as measured by the Kakwani Index
(1977) – indicates that direct taxes in the UK were progressive (+0.28) and indirect taxes
regressive (-0.15). Overall taxes were mildly progressive (+0.05) (Wagstaff et al 1999). Data
on the distribution of the tax burden between income groups shows that direct taxes account
for 24% of gross income of top quintile compared to 12% of the bottom quintile. Indirect
taxes account for 12% of gross income of the top quintile and 28% of the bottom quintile.
Overall the bottom income group pays 40% of income on taxation compared to 36% in the
top income group. This measure of progressivity suggests that overall taxation in the UK
might be regressive (Commission on Taxation and Citizenship 2000).
3.2 Social health insurance contributions
The equivalent to social insurance in the UK is National Insurance. The employee
contribution is 10% of earned income between GBP 87 and GBP 575 per week and the
employer contribution is 11.9% on earnings above GBP 87 with no upper ceiling
(http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm). A lower rate of GBP 2 per week applies to
the self-employed plus a percentage of profits. These revenues go into the National Insurance
Fund (which is managed by the Treasury). When funds are insufficient to pay out the required
benefits (e.g. during periods of high unemployment) transfers are made from general taxation.
However, any surplus is accumulated in the Fund. The rates are set every year by the
government in the budget. Some groups such as the unemployed and carers are credited with
contributions for purposes of benefit entitlement. Others may make voluntary contributions to
retain entitlement. National Insurance contributions are less progressive than direct taxes
according to the Kakwani Index (+0.19) (Wagstaff et al 1999).
3.3 Voluntary health insurance premia
Premia for private medical insurance (PMI) are risk rated for individual polices and group
rated for group insurance. There is no regulation of premia. Income tax relief on policies for
over 60s was introduced in 1991 but subsequently abolished in 1997. Employers may
purchase PMI for employees out of pre-tax income. However employers must pay National
Insurance contributions on the value of the PMI benefit and employees must pay income tax
on the value of the in-kind benefit. Recently, insurance companies have been required to pay
an Insurance Premium Tax levied at 5% on the value of the premia.
you are ok with this then?
3 WHO PAYS AND HOW MUCH?
3.1 Taxation
Direct taxes are levied at the following rates: 10% (on first GBP 1880 of taxable income),
22% (GBP 1881–GBP 29 400) and 40% (over GBP 29 400) (http://www.inlandrevenue.
gov.uk/rates/it.htm). The standard rate of value added tax (VAT) is 17.5%. Certain goods and
services are zero rated or reduced rate (5%).
SPINTECK
09-20-2007, 10:43 PM
It's just not right that american's largest cause of bankruptcy (which is harder to file for thanks to curren administration) is due to lack of healthcare.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1
Okay, I think I'm done ;)
SPINTECK
09-20-2007, 10:49 PM
you are ok with this then?
3 WHO PAYS AND HOW MUCH?
3.1 Taxation
Direct taxes are levied at the following rates: 10% (on first GBP 1880 of taxable income),
22% (GBP 1881–GBP 29 400) and 40% (over GBP 29 400) (http://www.inlandrevenue.
gov.uk/rates/it.htm). The standard rate of value added tax (VAT) is 17.5%. Certain goods and
services are zero rated or reduced rate (5%).
After my federal income, Fica, state, local, sales tax, medical deduction (mine is cheap too, 131/month for family of 3 for personal choice) and copays I don't think they are paying much more if any. I would like to know how their real estate taxes are structured.
If anything, we should uncap FICA in this country because there is not way rich people should not pay the same percent that working joes do. Let's not even talk about dividends. SO yes, if everyone paid those rates I'd be okay w/that because right now only the middle class are paying high rates. You're an engineer, I'm sure your paycheck has a lot taken out too.
Its interesting to me how it's a tiered system. Is there a tax break for people in poverty, or is the tiered system meant to tax them less? Not that I'm for a tax break for anyone, but I can see some politician lobbying for one to get votes.
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