New offerings from Trek and C'dale

[MtnbikeMike]

These are two bikes I'm drooling over. And Cannondale's still making it in the US. Quite a bit on innovation in the new Trek(well almost).

New Madone (http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/)


Super Six (http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=/photos/2007/tech/features/giro_wrap/Giro07Tech-Cdale8)

[splat]

The New Madone doesn't do anything for me, that cannondale on the other hand looks very sharp.

[MtnbikeMike]

I like what trek did with the BB, and headset(a la Cannindale), and seat tube.

I buddy of mine may be throwing a leg over the Cannondale tomorrow, so it'll be intresting how stiff those small stays are. For reference, he's currently riding a Liquigas System Six.

[OGRipper]

The New Madone doesn't do anything for me, that cannondale on the other hand looks very sharp.

Funny, I was going to say almost exactly the opposite. The Madone is the first Trek I've liked in quite some time (judging on looks and specs anyway) whereas the c-dale doesn't really wind me up much.

[H8R]

Look at this pic:

http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/images/technology/madone_seatmast.jpg





















Now you're gay.

[MtnbikeMike]

On a side note...looking at the specs, anyone else notice the Ultegra SL gruppo? Never heard of it.

[GravityFreakTJ]

here is my new "offering"

http://www.fujibikes.com/2007/bikes.asp?id=263&subcat=


full review coming soon....

[MtnbikeMike]

here is my new "offering"

http://www.fujibikes.com/2007/bikes.asp?id=263&subcat=


full review coming soon....

W/ a compact? :disgust1: :pirate2:

[GravityFreakTJ]

tisk tisk...be nice Mike

[MtnbikeMike]

You don't run out of gears while racing?

[GravityFreakTJ]

outta gears???? we have mountains :monkeydance: besides i race what they send me , THANKS FUJI:spam:

[MtnbikeMike]

Well, you have to come down those mountains, right? ;)

We have mountains too, and I usually spin out my 53x11 going up :twitch: :biggrin:

[GravityFreakTJ]

i did do a race a couple of weeks agao that was flaaaaaaat and i spunout a bit. its not to bad tho as i a spinner more than a masher i guess.

[DirtyMike]

I am building one of those Madones Saturday, New shop Demo bike. I am curious how much they changed it from last year. I will post once it is together and feel it out some more

[DRB]

On a side note...looking at the specs, anyone else notice the Ultegra SL gruppo? Never heard of it.

It has a new color, slightly lighter across the group and there is an Ultegra specific compact crank option.

[DRB]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/features/cannondale_supersix07

more on the supersix

[Mike B.]

More on the Ultegra SL
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicycleretailer/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003593959

[MtnbikeMike]

My buddy got a chance to rise one for the day on Sunday. The bike weighed 14.9lbs w/o pedals, built with Ksyrium ES wheels, Sram Force, C'dale alu SI cranks, etc. I asked him how the bike was and he liked it, but it didn't sound like he was able to tell much of a difference. The frame was plenty stiff for him(he's a guy who usually doesn't like carbon because it's too flexy). He commented how stiff the ES wheels were compared to his Dura Ace clinchers and how flexy the Control Tech scandium stem was. The top tube diameter isn't as big on the Supersix as it is on the Systemsix. Not really an in-depth review, but again I didn't ride it; I just got to look at it.

On another side note...my buddy informed me about '08 Dura-Ace being electronic.

[Westy]

I really like the Madone BB idea. Threading in external bearings is stupid. This seems like the best solution as existing cranks can be used, I'd like to see it on moutain bikes.

[OGRipper]

More on the Madone, definitely some cool stuff happening with that frameset:

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/12366.0.html

[MtnbikeMike]

I really like the Madone BB idea. Threading in external bearings is stupid. This seems like the best solution as existing cranks can be used, I'd like to see it on moutain bikes.

Well, in that link OG posted there's mention of a new Fuel. Perhaps some of these innovations(BB, seat mast) will be used in it.

[GravityFreakTJ]

campy is doin the eletronic shifting to eh? or did i dream that



edit: either way im stickin with my sram force

[MtnbikeMike]

campy is doin the eletronic shifting to eh? or did i dream that



edit: either way im stickin with my sram force

I heard about campy too, but I'm not sure about '08. I'm not sure about electronic shifting, I mean, the stuff now works great. Plus I don't want to forget to change or recharge my batteries and realize it mid-race.

[reflux]

Fwiw, I love to see what Trek is doing with the frame. Unfortunately I can already tell you that the frame is too rich for my blood, but that doesn't mean I can't edrool over it.

My only worry about the Trek headtube and bb is that manufacturing tolerances will have to spot-on. I'm not saying it can't be done, certainly. It's just that facing a tube will no longer be an option if the discrepancy is too big.

[Westy]

Fwiw, I love to see what Trek is doing with the frame. Unfortunately I can already tell you that the frame is too rich for my blood, but that doesn't mean I can't edrool over it.

My only worry about the Trek headtube and bb is that manufacturing tolerances will have to spot-on. I'm not saying it can't be done, certainly. It's just that facing a tube will no longer be an option if the discrepancy is too big.

I hear ya but the same idea can be easily transfered to a cheaper aluminum frame where the head and BB could be easily reamed to the proper size.

[reflux]

I hear ya but the same idea can be easily transfered to a cheaper aluminum frame where the head and BB could be easily reamed to the proper size.
Maybe. Help me out if I'm on the wrong track.

The bearing cartridge sits inside the frame. Directly on the carbon, no foreign material inserts, right? The manufacturing tolerances have to be very good throughout the entire headtube, from where the bearings sit to the faced(?) headtube. There's minimal doubt in my mind that Trek can do this right, it's when the tech flows through to the smaller and lower-end manufacturers that this could become a problem.

Btw, isn't the headtube idea similar to one of the first versions of integrated headsets? Didn't a worry (problem?) over poor manufacturing tolerances lead CK to develop the perdido headset?

[GravityFreakTJ]

I heard about campy too, but I'm not sure about '08. I'm not sure about electronic shifting, I mean, the stuff now works great. Plus I don't want to forget to change or recharge my batteries and realize it mid-race.


I haven't done any research on the electronic shifting but i don't see the advantage of it. Am i missing something obvious? Maybe its just change for the sake of change .

[OGRipper]

Maybe. Help me out if I'm on the wrong track.

The bearing cartridge sits inside the frame. Directly on the carbon, no foreign material inserts, right? The manufacturing tolerances have to be very good throughout the entire headtube, from where the bearings sit to the faced(?) headtube. There's minimal doubt in my mind that Trek can do this right, it's when the tech flows through to the smaller and lower-end manufacturers that this could become a problem.

I dunno, manufacturing has come a long way across the board. Also, given the newer designs and availability of higher-quality bearings, it seems that the tolerances for cranks and headsets just don't need to be super tight. I guess I'm just saying that the target of acceptability is perhaps bigger than some people think, and easier to hit. And with bearings this easy to replace, it's not such a big deal anyway.

[OGRipper]

I haven't done any research on the electronic shifting but i don't see the advantage of it. Am i missing something obvious? Maybe its just change for the sake of change .

Zero friction, instant response, precise shifting movement (no slop), and no cables all sound pretty good to me.

It's coming, eventually. I won't be surprised to see electronic brakes at some point too, perhaps combined with a hydro caliper.

[-dustin]

rep brought a Super Six into the shop last Friday and I missed it. damn. we're having a big weekend coming up with Tinker in town (having dinner with him Friday night ,i believe), so i'm hoping the Super Six will make another appearance.

[DRB]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/features/trek_madone_launch07

Lots of pics of the construction.

[Wumpus]

I really like the Madone BB idea. Threading in external bearings is stupid. This seems like the best solution as existing cranks can be used, I'd like to see it on moutain bikes.

My Klein had pressed in BB bearings. It was a pita to replace the bearings because very few shops had the press. Luckily, they were really good bearings, and I only had to do it twice.

[Westy]

My Klein had pressed in BB bearings. It was a pita to replace the bearings because very few shops had the press. Luckily, they were really good bearings, and I only had to do it twice.

If a manufacture pays attention to tolerances they wouldn't need to make a tight press fit.

[-dustin]

my Viscounce had press-in bb bearings. pretty big pain. the C-Dales i've worked with that have had the SI bbs have been fairly straight forward and easy, though.

[BikeMike]

Zero friction, instant response, precise shifting movement (no slop), and no cables all sound pretty good to me.


Friction in cables is not a huge problem in all but the rarest cases (unless you let the cables rust or have really terrible routing). I think the effort expended by using a lever to pull a shift cable is insignificant in comparison to the effort of holding onto handlebars and supporting part of one's weight.* Instead of cables you have to have a generator and/or batteries. Electronic shifting will continue to be a novelty for the foreseeable future.

*except perhaps for people with really small hands, like small women, who often have some trouble shifting with levers designed for people with much larger hands, though this is mostly a problem of mechanical advantage, or lack thereof, because of the lever design.

[MtnbikeMike]

my Viscounce had press-in bb bearings. pretty big pain. the C-Dales i've worked with that have had the SI bbs have been fairly straight forward and easy, though.

And the Treks should supposedly be even easier. :cheers:

Edit: I can see it now...Shop employee: "that'll be $25 for a bottom bracket replacement" :greedy:

[OGRipper]

Friction in cables is not a huge problem in all but the rarest cases (unless you let the cables rust or have really terrible routing). I think the effort expended by using a lever to pull a shift cable is insignificant in comparison to the effort of holding onto handlebars and supporting part of one's weight.* Instead of cables you have to have a generator and/or batteries. Electronic shifting will continue to be a novelty for the foreseeable future.

*except perhaps for people with really small hands, like small women, who often have some trouble shifting with levers designed for people with much larger hands, though this is mostly a problem of mechanical advantage, or lack thereof, because of the lever design.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but similar things were said about some of the advances we now love and take for granted, starting with the quick releases on through index shifting, clipless pedals, disc brakes, etc. Plus, electronics will make more sense as drivetrains evolve. I don't know what "foreseeable" means but I take the long view with this sort of thing, and all I'm saying is it's coming, eventually.

[BikeMike]

Eh, I'm an old codger already and yet still too young to remember the clipless pedal and index shifting revolutions. Though I do vaguely remember Mektronic. I still run Shimano 9 speed on the road (and prefer it over 10 speed) and v-brakes on my XC bike.

You're probably right in that eventually there will be good electronic shifting, but I'll be surprised if it really catches on in the next 20 years.

[-dustin]

SuperSix came into the shop today. eh. seatstays are kind of cool, but Cervelo already got my "holy **** those are small" reaction last summer.

[GravityFreakTJ]

you talkin about a R3 Cervelo i take it ?

[-dustin]

yeah, i guess that's the one. i've only seen 3 Cervelos and 2 of them were P3s, so i'm not too familiar with them.

[draco]

you talkin about a R3 Cervelo i take it ?

I know at least on the R3 that the seatstays are only there to meet UCI frame design regulations - the bike was designed without them being needed structurally.

SuperSix at the shop today has a similar look.. its plenty stiff laterally, but soakes up the bumps nicely.

[Bikebro]

I don't really see anything new in the madone. Look already has a fork that doesn't use a bearing race and Gary Klein did the the tapered steer tube in 1993. Hell the fork that has been coming on the madones since their launch was mostly a 10 yr old Klein design. I can't believe they are even trying to call the seat post integrated when it is nothing more then a reverse of the current seat post. WoW its seat tube inside a seat post instead of the other way around. With all the overlap I don't see how it saves any weight.

I will give them alot of credit for making a more modern design that looks good though. C-Dale bikes just get uglier to me as they keep making everything so huge.

[MtnbikeMike]

I don't really see anything new in the madone. Look already has a fork that doesn't use a bearing race and Gary Klein did the the tapered steer tube in 1993. Hell the fork that has been coming on the madones since their launch was mostly a 10 yr old Klein design. I can't believe they are even trying to call the seat post integrated when it is nothing more then a reverse of the current seat post. WoW its seat tube inside a seat post instead of the other way around. With all the overlap I don't see how it saves any weight.

I will give them alot of credit for making a more modern design that looks good though. C-Dale bikes just get uglier to me as they keep making everything so huge.

Did the '93 Klein use a 1.5" lower bearing? They claim the seatpost does save weight(afterall the did design it), though the place it clamps puts less stress on the frame, the tubes are larger in diameter, thus they can use less material. Plus there's no more overlap than a standard seatpost.

The BB isn't something new?

[DirtyMike]

Ok lots of fuss over the BB on the Madone. The bearing are not pressed in, you can in fact change them by hand with no problems. Was curious myself, so i took one apart to se for myself. Shop gets to test ride on thursday and friday..... I cant wait.

[MtnbikeMike]

I saw one in the LBS today...that downtube is massively wide. And the Ultegra SL stuff is purdy.

[DRB]

You're probably right in that eventually there will be good electronic shifting, but I'll be surprised if it really catches on in the next 20 years.

20 years? I'd guess more like 20 months.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/features/dauphine_libere_207

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/features/dauphine_libere_207/Ronny_Schulzs_Gerolsteiner_S-Works_Tarmac_SL_rear_derailleur.jpg

Obviously a prototype but Shimano has been putting a lot of effort into an electronic group.

[JRogers]

20 years? I'd guess more like 20 months.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/features/dauphine_libere_207

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/features/dauphine_libere_207/Ronny_Schulzs_Gerolsteiner_S-Works_Tarmac_SL_rear_derailleur.jpg

Obviously a prototype but Shimano has been putting a lot of effort into an electronic group.

You kidding? Do you know how long that crap has been floating around? It looks mad cobbly to me- very, very far from production, if it ever makes it there anyway.