if meat is murder, then what are vegans?

[$tinkle]

vegan couple found guilty of starving kid to death on diet of tofu & apple juice (http://www.dailyreportonline.com/Editorial/News/new_singleEdit.asp?individual_SQL=5%2F3%2F2007%401 3112_Public_.htm)

why don't vegans breastfeed?
is it b/c vegans don't eat anything that casts a shadow?

[Echo]

Yeah, because one vegan couple did some wierd nasty sh!t, all vegans must be like that!

[$tinkle]

Yeah, because one vegan couple did some wierd nasty sh!t, all vegans must be like that!no, it's because they're black.

[Westy]

Is it any more abusive than jamming food down Fatty McDiabetic Jr's throat?
http://randomfatkids.com/submit/pics/34.jpg

http://randomfatkids.com/featured-2.jpg

[jonKranked]

Is it any more abusive than jamming food down Fatty McDiabetic Jr's throat?

:rofl: McDiabetes. McCancer. McSars. the possibilities are endless.

I have nothing wrong with vegetarians/vegans. Do I think some of them take it too far? Absolutely. Case in point. I don't think you should force something like that on a child. You need to wait until they are old enough to let them decide for themselves, but that poses an issue in a situation such as this when both parents are vegan (which effectively doesn't really expose them to other options).


And I don't get the no breast-feeding thing. That's what they're there for, despite popular opinion that they are there for men to oogle over (not a bad thing, just not their primary function).


In the meantime... like maddox says... for every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three. (FTR i try to buy freerange as much as possible - trying to find some good places to get it around here).

[Lex]

3.5 pounds and they didn't know the baby was in trouble? I may not be able to read my son's mind about what is wrong sometimes but when your child wastes away before your eyes your should get a clue a little sooner. 3.5 pounds! That is truly criminal.

[dante]

Is it any more abusive than jamming food down Fatty McDiabetic Jr's throat?

those are some of the saddest pics I've seen in a long time....

[Westy]

So I finally read the link, pretty horrible. Fortunately they wont be spreading their genetic material, at least with nothing other than their cell mates.

[Westy]

those are some of the saddest pics I've seen in a long time....

www.randomfatkids.com

The site has a lot of potential but the owner seems a bit lazy.

[jimmydean]

www.randomfatkids.com

The site has a lot of potential but the owner seems a bit lazy.

I say that about porn sites all the time...

<edit> I agree that it's bad to force kids into a lifestyle choice that was made by the parents. But that goes for religion and politics as well as many other chioces.

[Lex]

I say that about porn sites all the time...

<edit> I agree that it's bad to force kids into a lifestyle choice that was made by the parents. But that goes for religion and politics as well as many other chioces.

If the mother was a eating a healthy diet, vegan or otherwise, and breastfeeding the baby, there would have been no issue. A baby needs more than just soy milk and apple juice to survive. With someone eating a vegan diet I would think it even more important since the baby would pick up most, if not all of it's, sustanance through mom. Chris@!%$! I'm sure there was some good vegan reason to not use formula but come on! These people were clearly just dumb.

[jonKranked]

If the mother was a eating a healthy diet, vegan or otherwise, and breastfeeding the baby, there would have been no issue. A baby needs more than just soy milk and apple juice to survive. With someone eating a vegan diet I would think it even more important since the baby would pick up most, if not all of it's, sustanance through mom. Chris@!%$! I'm sure there was some good vegan reason to not use formula but come on! These people were clearly just dumb.

I smell Darwin Award.

[MikeD]

Darwins are for killers of themselves, not murderers of children...

Ed: This tragedy does bring to mind another vegan conundrum...can vegan chicks (or dudes, I suppose, as well) swallow?

[$tinkle]

Darwins are for killers of themselves, not murderers of children...i can see it as such: you have an accident which stops the family tree (a life sentence all but guarantees it)Ed: This tragedy does bring to mind another vegan conundrum...can vegan chicks (or dudes, I suppose, as well) swallow?funny you should start this with "ed".
putting that aside, i think there's permission to accidentally ingest protein, like when a hippie is riding his gt peace through the castro & gets tossed (like they do in japan).

[manimal]

Is it any more abusive than jamming food down Fatty McDiabetic Jr's throat?
http://randomfatkids.com/submit/pics/34.jpg

http://randomfatkids.com/featured-2.jpg

if ANY of my kids end up like that i'll send them to the vegan parents for some "tough love."

how do you let your child get this big?!!!!

[rockwool]

<edit> I agree that it's bad to force kids into a lifestyle choice that was made by the parents. But that goes for religion and politics as well as many other chioces.

No man, that's what parenthood is about; to teach once kids values/fundamental perceptions (dunno which word is correct here..) so that they become the better part of once self. Them two parents where clearly not fully tuned.

Veganism as far as I know is objecting the stronger part (human) using the weaker part (animal) for his own egos pleasure; Animals aren't here on earth to please our heavenly asses; Whe're put here by God/fait on equal terms.
The stronger part justifying the use of a weaker part just because this asset, that he actually can, is a fundamental part in fascist ideology.



Them fatty-kid pics remind me of a 50cent rhyme that goes "I love you like a fat kid loves cake".

[Westy]

if ANY of my kids end up like that i'll send them to the vegan parents for some "tough love."

how do you let your child get this big?!!!!

A woman I work with has two girls that are huge. She and her husband are skinny so genetics probably have little to do with it in this case. I actually saw them at the gym one day, they got their kids a personal trainer to drop the weight while they sat in the lobby working on their laptops. I was dumbfounded that they would pay a whole lot of money to do what a ball in the backyard could accomplish let alone not participate at all. I'm guessing they are more concerned about getting that next promotion so they can afford the bigger Mercedes.

[HOWDY]

if veganism is so great, why does it kill?

[$tinkle]

how do you let your child get this big?!!!!one bite at a time:

http://www.stolenchildhood.net/images/fat_children_children.jpg

[rockwool]

if veganism is so great, why does it kill?

Who did you ask that question, and what does it kill?

[Changleen]

http://randomfatkids.com/submit/pics/34.jpg

At least 9 bars of soap right there...

:disgust:

[jonKranked]

update: they got life in prison.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8P102RO0&show_article=1

[BMXman]

if veganism is so great, why does it kill?


ok lets get one thing straight...the media put the "Vegan" spin on the story for sensationalism.

The couple got life in prison because they did not feed the baby not because they were Vegans!!...D

[MikeD]

ok lets get one thing straight...the media put the "Vegan" spin on the story for sensationalism.

The couple got life in prison because they did not feed the baby not because they were Vegans!!...D

Nobody listen to him. It's just the malnutrition talking...

[DRB]

vegan is murder

[ohio]

ok lets get one thing straight...the media put the "Vegan" spin on the story for sensationalism.


Nah, it was a typo. They meant "muslim."

[DRB]

Nah, it was a typo. They meant "muslim."

Are you sure they didn't mean "brown people"?

[HOWDY]

guns dont kill people,vegans do!

[luelling]

http://randomfatkids.com/submit/pics/34.jpg
That poor girl has a keg and she hasn't even started drinking yet!!! Her parents are probably fat and blame it on the "fat gene", nevermind all the candy and fast food

[jonKranked]

ok lets get one thing straight...the media put the "Vegan" spin on the story for sensationalism.

The couple got life in prison because they did not feed the baby not because they were Vegans!!...D

they didn't feed the baby enough because they forced a vegan diet upon the child.

[SkaredShtles]

they didn't feed the baby enough because they were complete retards.
Fixed. :disgust1:

[Slugman]

they didn't feed the baby enough because they forced a vegan diet upon the child.

A proper vegan diet has enough nutrients in it to sustain a child (although I personally would have voted for holding off until the kid was older).

They did not feed the baby enough or properly.

The parents being vegan is a side note at best, it's not like we've never heard of children being starved to death by meat eating parents.

[DRB]

A proper vegan diet has enough nutrients in it to sustain a child (although I personally would have voted for holding off until the kid was older).

They did not feed the baby enough or properly.

The parents being vegan is a side note at best, it's not like we've never heard of children being starved to death by meat eating parents.

You're one of them aren't you?

[BMXman]

A proper vegan diet has enough nutrients in it to sustain a child (although I personally would have voted for holding off until the kid was older).

They did not feed the baby enough or properly.

The parents being vegan is a side note at best, it's not like we've never heard of children being starved to death by meat eating parents.

thanks for the common sense post Boomer....D

[dirtydirtysouf]

how do you let your child get this big?!!!!

its easy.............when your kid is doing something wrong (crying, throwing a tantrum) most parents that i know toss treats/candy at the kid to get them to stop instead of a real punishmnet like i used to get (belt time)

[MikeD]

I say we breed a nation of skinny S&M freak girls with father issues than a bunch of spoiled fatties, myself...

[LordOpie]

Sincere question...

What's the idea/concept/philosophy/whatever behind "meat is murder"?

aren't we animals and don't many animals kill and eat other animals?

[MikeD]

Sincere question...

What's the idea/concept/philosophy/whatever behind "meat is murder"?

aren't we animals and don't many animals kill and eat other animals?

Now, Opie, if all the other animals jumped off the Brooklyn bridge, would you do it, too?

[Echo]

Sincere question...

What's the idea/concept/philosophy/whatever behind "meat is murder"?

aren't we animals and don't many animals kill and eat other animals?
I think some vegans/vegetarians take it a little far with the guilt thing, especially PETA.

But honestly, why do so many people seem to make it their business that I choose not to eat corpses?

[MikeD]

'cuz the mind control drugs are in the steak, and you're screwing up our plan.

[LordOpie]

I think some vegans/vegetarians take it a little far with the guilt thing, especially PETA.

But honestly, why do so many people seem to make it their business that I choose not to eat corpses?

I think people "make it their business" when extremists push it on them?

But I'm still curious as to the reasoning behind the "meat is murder".

[Echo]

I think people "make it their business" when extremists push it on them?

But I'm still curious as to the reasoning behind the "meat is murder".
I think of "meat is murder" as an an expression of an opinion. Or a Smiths album.

And I don't mean to say only meatasauruses "make it their business". For every time I've heard "just eat a steak you faggot" from the boys at the bar, I've heard the "oh you're a vegetarian too!" from some ditzy chick who instantly thinks we're kindred souls or something.

[MikeD]

For every time I've heard "just eat a steak you faggot" from the boys at the bar, I've heard the "oh you're a vegetarian too!" from some ditzy chick who instantly thinks we're kindred souls or something.

That must be rough.

[binary visions]

I've heard the "oh you're a vegetarian too!" from some ditzy chick who instantly thinks we're kindred souls or something.

Hm.

If someone noticed you had a mountain bike sticker of some kind on your bag/car/whatever and said, "Oh, you mountain bike? What do you ride?" would it bug you as much as the vegetarian thing?

And don't you just hate it when chicks hit on you? It really bugs me, too ;) :D

[LordOpie]

That must be rough.

:D :monkey:

[Echo]

Hm.

If someone noticed you had a mountain bike sticker of some kind on your bag/car/whatever and said, "Oh, you mountain bike? What do you ride?" would it bug you as much as the vegetarian thing?

And don't you just hate it when chicks hit on you? It really bugs me, too ;) :D
Generally I have a lot more to talk about with a mountain biker than a vegetarian.

And I've never tried to parlay the vegetarian chick thing into a score, but I doubt it would work. And I have a GF that probably wouldn't appreciate it.

[LordOpie]

And I've never tried to parlay the vegetarian chick thing into a score, but I doubt it would work.

Plus, they don't put meat in their body.

[Echo]

I mean I have friends who are vegetarians, and we sometimes talk about food, but we're not friends BECAUSE we're vegetarians.

[Echo]

Plus, they don't put meat in their body.
Some of them do :D

[MMike]

Some of them do :D

You'd better translate that one. dhbuilder will never get it if you don't....

[LordOpie]

Some of them do :D

you, uhh, put... meat in your body?

:puke:

[MikeD]

I'm friends with BMXman, but only *despite* the fact that he's a black vegan. I keep hoping he'll realize being black is really only a phase, and, well, I slip bits of turkey into his food when he's not looking.

[BMXman]

'cuz the mind control drugs are in the steak, and you're screwing up our plan.


lol:cheers:

[BMXman]

I'm friends with BMXman, but only *despite* the fact that he's a black vegan. I keep hoping he'll realize being black is really only a phase, and, well, I slip bits of turkey into his food when he's not looking.


BASTARD...I was wondering why I started developing muscle tone :D

[skinny mike]

meat is murder....




tasty, tasty murder.

[littlemissmarz]

my friend said last week ... "if God didnt intend for us to eat meat then he wouldn't have made animals out of it" ... i thought that was classic

[Echo]

The way I heard it was "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of food?"

[binary visions]

And I've never tried to parlay the vegetarian chick thing into a score, but I doubt it would work.

You doubt it would work? :bonk:

"Yeah, I just can't eat meat. I can't imagine being responsible for the death of all of the wonderful animals we share our planet with. They're so great, you know? Animals just understand you."

Either you don't have much experience with women or you haven't fully thought out all the possibilities :D

[Echo]

You doubt it would work? :bonk:

"Yeah, I just can't eat meat. I can't imagine being responsible for the death of all of the wonderful animals we share our planet with. They're so great, you know? Animals just understand you."

Either you don't have much experience with women or you haven't fully thought out all the possibilities :D
That sort of stuff works on all chicks, not just the vegetarian ones. :cheers:

[BMXman]

Hm.

If someone noticed you had a mountain bike sticker of some kind on your bag/car/whatever and said, "Oh, you mountain bike? What do you ride?" would it bug you as much as the vegetarian thing?

And don't you just hate it when chicks hit on you? It really bugs me, too ;) :D

well in my experience when I'm questioned about MTB's there is often a true interest...but when I'm asked about being Vegan it's often a challenge and the person feeling they need to "educate" me or prove me wrong...this happens about 90% of the time...D

[LordOpie]

...when I'm asked about being Vegan it's often a challenge and the person feeling they need to "educate" me or prove me wrong...this happens about 90% of the time...D

90% of the time? And you haven't learned yet?

Ya know, fish is really good for the brain.

[BMXman]

90% of the time? And you haven't learned yet?

Ya know, fish is really good for the brain.

that's why I'm kind agressive about NOT talking about it....I'm sure I come off rude sometimes but enough is enough...D

[LordOpie]

...I'm sure I come off rude...

A good burger will take the edge off.

[rockwool]

Sincere question...

What's the idea/concept/philosophy/whatever behind "meat is murder"?

aren't we animals and don't many animals kill and eat other animals?

Maybe I can shed a bit of light.
We humans have today the possibilities to feed our selves without having to eat meat. If it's not a nessesity, then it's just for pleasing once own ego. Animals don't have our choices, only those living on the island of Eden, the Phantom's island where all animals live in peace, can do so.

We are the master spieces on this planet. All animals are seen as lower standing creatures with very limited rights. They are here for our pleasure and need. Do you see any similarities to anything else?

If you look at all these sci-fi storys, that have come out as films or series, you will see another spieces invading our planet that is technically and intellectually superior to us. Like that 80's series "V" for instance. They conquered us so that they could exploit our natural resources, including us humans as food, just like we do here on earth with the animals (actually with humans too).

I remember that they had a shortage of natural resources and food on their planet as they, just like us, consumed above their assets. A big reason for our space journeys today are to find a new planet to empty of its natural resourses. When we run out of ours here, not only will we start dropping like flys, but the worst part is that our money will stop multiply; which is the core meaning of our system (and George Soros will lose his reason to live :eek: ).

Have you given a thought on what will happen if we find an intellectually developed spieces on that planet? They might live good lives, have dreams and search for higher meanings of their existance just like us. Will we have the right to make Mc Alien out of them just because we have bigger guns than they have?

If a person says to another person that his strenght and abilites, that are superior to the other once's, makes him a being of higher value, then that makes him a fascist. Litterally. That is a fundamental part of fascist ideology.

Humans are opportunists, our greed has no end, animals aren't, they take what they need, and only because they need.

This is a lot more critisism than some of us can take. I've noticed many times that when **** gets too serious, people shut off and often get offended. I'm never on anybodys ass about their eating habits, but if they ask why I'm a vegetarian I say it's because of I mostly find the farming industry, the transportations of the animals and the slaughter houses overly cruel.

I point out that these animals haven't at least lived as animals before they became food, as they've been confined to an all to small indoor space all their lives. I compare food from the animal industry to food from wild animals like (rain)deer, elk and fish.

It is hard to talk about this without making people feel guilty and I always mention that to ease up the atmosphere a bit. When people ask I try to give them positive alternatives to force fed chickens, like saying one can choose to buy turkeys that have lived on an old style farm.

Some times when I know the people better and I know that they can take a bit more of the truth, I tell them about how a great percentage of the worlds poplulation is either starving or malnutritioned because of that arable land is being used to grow fodder, and that we can feed all of us if we eat less meat.

I want to recolect that it takes 7 times the land to feed an animal so that 1 person can later be fed, than if we would grow crops for human consumation.


Self critisism is not an easy thing, but if we can do it it evolves us like few other things.

[rockwool]

There's one thing I've been thinking about and I hope both meat eaters and non meat eaters will speak their minds.

When I've been at someone elses house and they've offered me food, I haven't eaten any meat/fish. Of course, they ask me why I'm vegetarian and blablabla. Thing is, I feel bothered to talk about it as I'm afraid it's something that should be avoided as it might bother them and bring negative energy to the room.

What do you guys that are vegetarians/vegans do, shut up and eat what served but refuse seconds? And how would you meat eaters react if that happened at the table that you just served?

[LordOpie]

What do you guys that are vegetarians/vegans do, shut up and eat what served but refuse seconds? And how would you meat eaters react if that happened at the table that you just served?

First, your previous post is way too friggin' long. Brevity is your friend.

As for what to do when someone serves something you don't eat, well, don't eat it. How is that hard?

I refuse to eat meat that was abused in the standard process of growing it. Like foie gras, that's just mean. The only true way to eat meat is by killing a wild animal. Since I don't do that, I have to draw the line somewhere, that's duck liver, veal and the like.

[MikeD]

We are the master spieces on this planet. All animals are seen as lower standing creatures with very limited rights. They are here for our pleasure and need. Do you see any similarities to anything else?


Whoa, I never noticed! Animals are just like chicks!

Ed: WHOA! "V" reference! Sweet!!!! Now I know why I have the urge to tear my rubber face off and eat raw hamburger.

[syadasti]

Maybe I can shed a bit of light.
We humans have today the possibilities to feed our selves without having to eat meat. If it's not a nessesity, then it's just for pleasing once own ego.

We are omnivores - 2 million years of evolution can't be wrong. Our species succeeded for a reason - we are designed to be adaptable/flexible. Its easier to get your food from multiple sources and easier to balance your diet.

I would agree if you said in modern context, richer countries generally need to lower their animal based diet content, but eating everything is natural - there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing what nature intended us to do.

[kidwoo]

WHOA! "V" reference!

God you're old.


Yeah that show was rad.

[BMXman]

We are omnivores - 2 million years of evolution can't be wrong. Our species succeeded for a reason - we are designed to be adaptable/flexible. Its easier to get your food from multiple sources and easier to balance your diet.


So you eat meat because it's easier??...lol ok well to each his own...but vegetarianism isn't hard at all...D

[BMXman]

There's one thing I've been thinking about and I hope both meat eaters and non meat eaters will speak their minds.

When I've been at someone elses house and they've offered me food, I haven't eaten any meat/fish. Of course, they ask me why I'm vegetarian and blablabla. Thing is, I feel bothered to talk about it as I'm afraid it's something that should be avoided as it might bother them and bring negative energy to the room.

What do you guys that are vegetarians/vegans do, shut up and eat what served but refuse seconds? And how would you meat eaters react if that happened at the table that you just served?

I just tell them I'm vegetarian and I eat what I can. If they ask why and are truly interested I will go into detail. It only happened the first 2 years or so. Now everyone knows so it never comes up...D

[syadasti]

So you eat meat because it's easier??...lol ok well to each his own...but vegetarianism isn't hard at all...D

I was talking in general.

I eat everything because there is nothing wrong or unnatural about it - its how we evolved. To say it is wrong goes against evolution which can't be wrong.

If you interested in what the natural human diet is, this (http://www.amazon.com/Human-Diet-Its-Origin-Evolution/dp/0897897366/ref=sr_1_2/104-6433659-3256712?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180011457&sr=8-2) is the leading text on the matter.

Here is a good review of it from Amazon:

If you are interested in paleoanthropology and in the hypothesis that "diseases of affluence" accompanied dietary change as humans evolved, you likely wished for a scholarly treatment of the subject. This is exactly the book you wished for, but there is a risk that you will get in over your head. This book will fill in a gap in your collection of paleoanthropology books and will fill a considerable gap in your knowledge of the dietary habits of our forbears, as well as closely-related genera, and modern hunter-gatherers.

The book is a collection of nine previously published research papers, edited by a professor of anthropology, Ungar, and a professor of biology and anatomy, Teaford. They are also joint authors of two of the papers. There are no fewer than 560 references to other books and articles, or 3.5 per page. The rigor of the contributing authors' scholarship is very high, and the vocabulary is not modified for general readership. This is not an entry level treatment of the subject of prehistoric hominid diet, nor of diseases of affluence, and if you do not feel prepared for a graduate level seminar, then you may be disappointed. The problem is that there is nothing written for the general reader on this topic (except for anecdotal treatments), so you may simply wish to endure diminished comprehension rather than pass over this excellent book.

The editors state two objectives. The first is to consider the significance to contemporary humans of the evolution in hominid dietary preferences. The second is to indicate the methodologies used to determine those preferences. The book is fairly successful in the first objective, and highly successful in the latter.

The working assumption, thoroughout the book, is that, physiologically, we are the end result of some two million years of evolution since the first of our Genus evolved, yet we consume a diet which is different in the extreme from that of our ancestors. This "discordance" disrupts the long-established and delicate equilibrium between our physiological needs and our dietary composition. As the theory goes, this suboptimal composition results in numerous "diseases of affluence."

Substantiating this theory, the editors' ultimate objective, requires an extensive exploration of early hominid diets, which comprises the bulk of the book (and is a wonderful read), followed by a demonstration of the ill effects of divergence from this diet. The paleontological evidence for early hominin diets is comprised of dentition architecture, mandibular biomechanics, rehydrated coprolites, as well as dental and ossius isotopic ratio analysis. This evidence is coroborated with comparisons to the diets of existing Pong, and Pan Genera, whose genomes are still rather close neighbors of ours. It is further cooborated with studies of existing Homo sapien hunter-gatherers. The conclusion of this considerable effort, spanning several chapters and years of painstaking fieldwork is that there is actually no such thing as a single "paleolithic diet." This conclusion is necessary because hominids were exceptionally omnivorous, their habitats were variable, and their use of tools increasingly overcame some physiological limitations to food exploitation. While this conclusion might have discouraged other editors, Ungar and Teaford forge ahead to the health consequences of our modern dietary choices.

I strongly recommend two chapters in particular, "Evolution, Diet, and Health," by Eaton, Eaton, and Cordain, and "Hunter-Gatherer Diets: Wild Foods Signal Relief from Diseases of Affluence," by Milton. Moreover, even the highly technical chapters finish with "Conclusions" sections, which are accessible to the general reader.

If you are experienced in the vocabulary of paleoanthropology, and still have unanswered questions about the diets of early hominids, you will find the answers here. You will also learn that, notwithstanding Homo sapiens' vaunted omnivorousness, and adaptability to every ecological niche, there are definite limits to what we can consume. Our species passed that limit some ten thousand years ago, and natural selection works far too slowly for us ever to adapt.

[untitledsince89]

Darwins are for killers of themselves, not murderers of children...

Ed: This tragedy does bring to mind another vegan conundrum...can vegan chicks (or dudes, I suppose, as well) swallow?

The answer to that is yes, well at least for my gf, she swallows. She just won't eat any animal by-products, she has to get her protein somehow:biggrin:

[fluff]

I'm vegetrain

Hmm, vegetrain? Is that a vegetable locomotive? How many cabbages? Have you got a cow-catcher?

[Echo]

I was talking in general.

I eat everything because there is nothing wrong or unnatural about it - its how we evolved. To say it is wrong goes against evolution which can't be wrong.

If you interested in what the natural human diet is, this (http://www.amazon.com/Human-Diet-Its-Origin-Evolution/dp/0897897366/ref=sr_1_2/104-6433659-3256712?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180011457&sr=8-2) is the leading text on the matter.

Here is a good review of it from Amazon:
I know this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, but just because you decide to follow a certain belief structure, that does not make it the only correct information on the planet. Just because you, or someone who agrees with you, claims that someone is the leading expert on something, does not make it so. And I still don't understand why people like you give a rat's ass what I eat. I believe eating meat is not healthy, and there are a million reputable sources that will back up my claims too. For you to keep spouting the same opinions over and over and calling them facts does not change anything.

[MikeD]

Have you got a cow-catcher?
That sounds a bit violent for a vegetrain. I think he rather has a device that gently lifts the cows up and whisks them away to a long-deserved vacation, far away from railroad tracks.

My train, on the other hand, has a meat grinder mounted on the front.

[BMXman]

I was talking in general.

I eat everything because there is nothing wrong or unnatural about it - its how we evolved. To say it is wrong goes against evolution which can't be wrong.


ok lets say I agree with you that eating meat is natural evolution (which I don't). You can't compare the hunter/gather days to the amount of mass farming that goes on today. It's just apples and oranges. Now if you went out and killed your own meat with your bare hands or a weapon you made then I have no problem with that.

Today that is hardly the case. Mass farming uses up to much land, involves cruelty and endless suffering of animlas, as well as aids in the spead or many diseases.....D

[syadasti]

I know this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, but just because you decide to follow a certain belief structure, that does not make it the only correct information on the planet. Just because you, or someone who agrees with you, claims that someone is the leading expert on something, does not make it so.

Yeah this text sounds real questionable to me compared to those pamplets you get at the health food store:

The book is a collection of nine previously published research papers, edited by a professor of anthropology, Ungar, and a professor of biology and anatomy, Teaford. They are also joint authors of two of the papers. There are no fewer than 560 references to other books and articles, or 3.5 per page. The rigor of the contributing authors' scholarship is very high, and the vocabulary is not modified for general readership. This is not an entry level treatment of the subject of prehistoric hominid diet, nor of diseases of affluence, and if you do not feel prepared for a graduate level seminar, then you may be disappointed. The problem is that there is nothing written for the general reader on this topic (except for anecdotal treatments), so you may simply wish to endure diminished comprehension rather than pass over this excellent book.

Humans have physiological traits not found in herbivores. Our species succeeded because we are omnivores. Evolution isn't something you can just forget in a generation or two, it doesn't work that way.

Also I never mentioned you or BMXman - I didn't direct it anyone in particular.

[Echo]

Still I gotta do what works for me dude. I literally haven't had so much as a case of the sniffles in 2 years. I'm in my best riding shape ever. I'm 40 years old and I still get ID'd for beer. If I'm malnourished, it sure feels great. On the other hand, most of my meatasaurus friends, who ride/work out just as much as me, and otherwise eat healthy, are constantly getting colds, flu, stomach bugs, etc. Coincidence? Maybe. But I'm gonna stick with what works for me.

[syadasti]

Still I gotta do what works for me dude. I literally haven't had so much as a case of the sniffles in 2 years. I'm in my best riding shape ever. I'm 40 years old and I still get ID'd for beer. If I'm malnourished, it sure feels great. On the other hand, most of my meatasaurus friends, who ride/work out just as much as me, and otherwise eat healthy, are constantly getting colds, flu, stomach bugs, etc. Coincidence? Maybe. But I'm gonna stick with what works for me.

As I mentioned above I would agree if you said most western countries have too much animal based foods in their diet.

I'll give some credence to BMXman in that modern large scale commercial farming - BOTH animal and plant - does have a range of detrimental effects.

However you can't give up the fact that we are, by nature, omnivores. You can't discount our evolution.

[stevew]

...but when I'm asked about being Vegan it's often a challenge and the person feeling they need to "educate" me or prove me wrong...this happens about 90% of the time...D
And a polite response to their attempt at education could be....

"Well thanks for your concern, but in all honesty, fvck off. I'm perfectly content not to eat meat."

[Echo]

However you can't give up the fact that we are, by nature, omnivores. You can't discount our evolution.
Evolution also gave me a dick. Does that mean it's OK for me to rape women?

[fluff]

Still I gotta do what works for me dude. I literally haven't had so much as a case of the sniffles in 2 years. I'm in my best riding shape ever. I'm 40 years old and I still get ID'd for beer. If I'm malnourished, it sure feels great. On the other hand, most of my meatasaurus friends, who ride/work out just as much as me, and otherwise eat healthy, are constantly getting colds, flu, stomach bugs, etc. Coincidence? Maybe. But I'm gonna stick with what works for me.

You haven't got any kids have you?

[BMXman]

You haven't got any kids have you?

completely irrelevant...D

[fluff]

completely irrelevant...D

To catching colds? Oh no it ain't.

[syadasti]

Evolution also gave me a dick. Does that mean it's OK for me to rape women?

That has no relation to diet or evolution. Life isn't a ****ing disney movie. Animals eat other animals. Should we arrest a cat when he catches a meal? We could feed him a diet without meat too, but that would kill him but at least PETA would be happy - who cares what the scientific reality is. Our body has adaptations that aren't found in herbivores. We are made to eat everything and thats the way it is. Thats one of the reasons why the human species is so successful in the scheme of things.

[LordOpie]

And he's not going to have kids either if his mom was a vegan...

Low Sperm Count? It's Your Mother's Fault

By Maggie Fox in Washington, www.news.com.au

March 28 - WOMEN who don't eat beef while pregnant give birth to sons who grow up to have low sperm counts, new research suggests...

[$tinkle]

To catching colds? Oh no it ain't.quite true; i never got sick when all i did was work/ride/poop/sleep mostly b/c i had a decent exercise regimen & never came into contact w/ anyone.

since starting a family, less exercise + more humanette contact == more illness.

just for another data point, we should see what the patterns are with freegans (http://freegan.info/)

[BMXman]

To catching colds? Oh no it ain't.

I have a vegan nice and nephew 4 and 3. It's entirely possible to raise kids as vegetarians from birth without any problems. I have many friends who were brought up as veg and they live normal happy healthy lives...D

[BMXman]

And he's not going to have kids either if his mom was a vegan...


oh please..I bet the study was financed by cattle ranchers of America. For every study you find saying one thing there is always another saying the opposite...D

[LordOpie]

oh please..I bet the study was financed by cattle ranchers of America. For every study you find saying one thing there is always another saying the opposite...D

I doubt that since I made it up.

[Echo]

That has no relation to diet or evolution. Life isn't a ****ing disney movie. Animals eat other animals. Should we arrest a cat when he catches a meal? We could feed him a diet without meat too, but that would kill him but at least PETA would be happy - who cares what the scientific reality is. Our body has adaptations that aren't found in herbivores. We are made to eat everything and thats the way it is. Thats one of the reasons why the human species is so successful in the scheme of things.
Arrest a cat? WTF are you talking about? You aren't making any sense. Wild animals run around and f*ck whatever other member of their species they feel like f*cking at that particular moment. Wild animals run around and kill whatever animal they want to eat. Guess what, humans aren't wild animals, or at least some of us aren't. Just because you selectively choose which wild animal traits to make your own, doesn't make you better or smarter than anyone else.

And PETA doesn't have a damn thing to do with me being a vegetarian. Actually PETA can kiss my ass, their extremist position on everything is what gives people like you ammunition.

[fluff]

I have a vegan nice and nephew 4 and 3. It's entirely possible to raise kids as vegetarians from birth without any problems. I have many friends who were brought up as veg and they live normal happy healthy lives...D

Mate,I'm not making any comment about a vegan/vegetarian diet, I'm pointing out that when you have kids you catch far more colds - they transmit and incubate viruses like their lives depend on it.

I was 2 years without a cold until I had kids, then I spent months catching one cold after another.

[binary visions]

That has no relation to diet or evolution. Life isn't a ****ing disney movie. Animals eat other animals. Should we arrest a cat when he catches a meal? We could feed him a diet without meat too, but that would kill him but at least PETA would be happy - who cares what the scientific reality is. Our body has adaptations that aren't found in herbivores. We are made to eat everything and thats the way it is. Thats one of the reasons why the human species is so successful in the scheme of things.

ohio said it better than I would have (http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2481047&postcount=19).

Your post makes no sense whatsoever anyway.

Neither does your logic. We have dozens of instincts that have been necessary for our survival as we have evolved that are suppressed so that we can live in a reasonable and polite society. You are completely arbitrarily choosing the particular trait of being an omnivore as something we shouldn't suppress, and that's absurd. It is no different from a rapist using the evolutionary instinct to mate with every fertile female as an excuse for his behavior.

[syadasti]

Rape has nothing to do with diet - you were the one not making any sense.

Science is what has proven our body has adaptations that make us different than herbivores. Your arbitrary assignment of morals to eating meat has no effect on the value of diet to the human body. Evolution has choosen which animal traits are our own - nobody has any say in the matter.

[Echo]

Rape has nothing to do with diet - you were the one not making any sense.

Science is what has proven our body has adaptations that make us different than herbivores. Your arbitrary assignment of morals to eating meat has no effect on the value of diet to the human body. Evolution has choosen which animal traits are our own - nobody has any say in the matter.
So tell me again why going out and impregnating whatever female of my species want to is different than killing whatever I want to eat? From a wild animal/evolution perspective.

[BMXman]

Mate,I'm not making any comment about a vegan/vegetarian diet, I'm pointing out that when you have kids you catch far more colds - they transmit and incubate viruses like their lives depend on it.

I was 2 years without a cold until I had kids, then I spent months catching one cold after another.

ok gotcha...yeah the little buggers do carry a lot of germs...D

[rockwool]

We are omnivores - 2 million years of evolution can't be wrong. Our species succeeded for a reason - we are designed to be adaptable/flexible. Its easier to get your food from multiple sources and easier to balance your diet.

I would agree if you said in modern context, richer countries generally need to lower their animal based diet content, but eating everything is natural - there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing what nature intended us to do.

What I tried to do above was to explain what reasonons vegans have to not eat meat (I see now that I missed something and I will ad that). But I agree with you on most things.

One thing I don't agree with you on is that the sheer easyness of getting a balanced diet from multiple sources give us the right to kill another species (I'm not sure you meant it that way though).

I agree that it's natural to eat meat, but it's not natural to these proportions we're eating it today. I read some where that mankind had a vegetable diet of upto 90% through history. The figure varied for where on earth you looked, for instance eskimo's haven't eaten all too much vegetables (don't remember the opposing figure though).

One thing I missed to say was that vegans view it as wrong to actually USE an animal for anything (milk, eggs etc) as it isn't on the animals terms, but ours. Personaly I think we can bend that a bit aslong as the animals can live good lives (not be confined to a limited space etc). Otherwise I don't view it as they've live their natural lives.

What I don't agree on is that nature intended that animals be transported to the slaughter house packed as sardines for 24h, maybe more, in summer heat, half through Europe, so that when they reach the house they have to wait in line feeling and smelling the anxiety and fear of the animals in front of them being excecuted.

Hunting and fishing is natural. But emptying the seas of fish, as we are able to do today, isn't natural. Salmon breeding pools isn't natural eather, too bad as I really used to love sushi..

As you mentioned, I think we have to limit our selves.

[syadasti]

So tell me again why going out and impregnating whatever female of my species want to is different than killing whatever I want to eat? From a wild animal/evolution perspective.

If you can't tell the difference between eat and ****ing you have bigger problems than this.

You can't change an animal's diet overnight - it takes evolution to change it - mutations have to take place over generations of the species - change in steps over a long period of time. Some cultures have a higher rate of lactose intolerance for example to the mutations in their population.

Our evolution as an ominvore is why people can be malnourished as vegetarians - it takes more knowledge of nutrition such as amino acid balance - it isn't inherent knowledge - its not the omnivorous diet our body has evolved to eat.

[LordOpie]

since this thread turned dumb, I'll try to stop it by summarizing what syadasti's appears to be saying...

Being a vegan requires knowledge. You cannot be a vegan arbitrarily, but you can be an omnivore without thinking.



Y'all need to stop this, there's a monkey surrounded by guns in the lounge.

[syadasti]

One thing I missed to say was that vegans view it as wrong to actually USE an animal for anything (milk, eggs etc) as it isn't on the animals terms, but ours. Personaly I think we can bend that a bit aslong as the animals can live good lives (not be confined to a limited space etc). Otherwise I don't view it as they've live their natural lives.

Its a version of symbiosis. Arbitrary morals are inventions of mankind.

* Mutualism, a relationship in which members of two different species benefit and neither suffers.'[2] (+ +)
* Commensalism, a relationship in which 'one party gains some benefit, whilst the other suffers no serious disadvantage'[3] (+ 0)
* Parasitism, in which one member of the association benefits while the other is harmed (+ -)
* Amensalism, in which the association is disadvantageous to one member while the other is not affected (− 0). Allelopathy can fall into this category.
* Competition, in which both organisms are harmed (- -) Allelopathy can fall into this category.
* Artificial symbiosis, the mutually beneficial integration between a live part and an artifact.

Symbiosis may be divided into two distinct categories: ectosymbiosis and endosymbiosis. In ectosymbiosis, the symbiont lives on the body surface of the host, including the inner surface of the digestive tract or the ducts of exocrine glands. In endosymbiosis, the symbiont lives within the tissues of the host; either in the intracellular space or extracellularly.

[BMXman]

It think it's funny that syadasti just assumes that everyone believes in evolution...which seems to be the basis of his argument...D

[Echo]

If you can't tell the difference between eat and ****ing you have bigger problems than this.
Can you even read? Of course I can tell the difference, although last night I did both within a very short period of time on my couch so it was a bit fuzzy. Watching TV was also involved, not that I can tell the difference there either.

If you go back and read, what I said was "from a wild animal/evolution perspective". Both are activites that are vital to the survival of a species. And they are both urges that wild animals cannot control, and humans can.

Besides, my cat has diplomatic immunity, so you can't arrest her.

[syadasti]

And they are both urges that wild animals cannot control, and humans can.

Human cannot change how they are presently evolved. You can't just decide to start drinking milk if you are lactose intolerant without some artificial bandaid - your genes won't let you.

[BMXman]

Human cannot change how they are presently evolved. You can't just decide to start drinking milk if you are lactose intolerant without some artificial bandaid - your genes won't let you.


I have to call BS...I use to be allergic to bee stings and after seeing a homeopath for a few months I'm no longer allergic....D

[Silver]

I have to call BS...I use to be allergic to bee stings and after seeing a homeopath for a few months I'm no longer allergic....D

Are you saying that a homeopath caused a change in the way your gene expression worked? I'd look into that a little deeper, because proving that could net you a nobel prize...

[syadasti]

I have to call BS...I use to be allergic to bee stings and after seeing a homeopath for a few months I'm no longer allergic....D

Sorry but your homeopath did not change your genes.

[BMXman]

Sorry but your homeopath did not change your genes.


You stated one could not drink milk if they were lactose intolerant....basically they have an allergy to lactose. All I'm saying is that allegries can be overcome...D

[syadasti]

All I'm saying is that allegries can be overcome...D

And treatment does not change your genes. Its an artificial bandaid - your body would be more allergic on its own.

[BMXman]

lol...I like how you pick and chose what to respond to. I tell you what..you keep eating meat since you have "evolved' to do so and i'll stay vegetarian. We can talk about it again if 50 years...if you're still alive that is :D...D

[syadasti]

lol...I like how you pick and chose what to respond to. I tell you what..you keep eating meat since you have "evolved' to do so and i'll stay vegetarian. We can talk about it again if 50 years...if you're still alive that is :D...D

My father is in his 60s and most people think he's in his 40s. He is still an avid skier and tennis professional. I've even taken him downhilling at Whistler and he doesn't regularly mountain bike.

My former boss is an avid mountain biker and he also is in his 60s.

A healthy lifestyle can be achieved whether you eat meat or not.

[Echo]

A healthy lifestyle can be achieved whether you eat meat or not.
Of course you and your family are all genetic wonders and perfect in every way. But let's compare all the vegetarians in the world with all the corpse eaters. Include in the comparison body fat, overall health, and physical appearance. Are you REALLY stupid enough to think that there will be equality in that comparison?

[BMXman]

Nevermind looks like Echo beat me to it....D

[narlus]

Humans are opportunists, our greed has no end, animals aren't, they take what they need, and only because they need.

you've obviously never owned a dog before.

[Echo]

you've obviously never owned a dog before.
Dogs seem to have a problem differentiating between "want" and "need" :D

[Silver]

Of course you and your family are all genetic wonders and perfect in every way. But let's compare all the vegetarians in the world with all the corpse eaters. Include in the comparison body fat, overall health, and physical appearance. Are you REALLY stupid enough to think that there will be equality in that comparison?

The vegetarians are a self selecting group...

[syadasti]

Of course you and your family are all genetic wonders and perfect in every way. But let's compare all the vegetarians in the world with all the corpse eaters. Include in the comparison body fat, overall health, and physical appearance. Are you REALLY stupid enough to think that there will be equality in that comparison?

To be longterm vegetarian you have to have some knowledge about nutrition, so you have to compare with a population of similar nutritional knowledge base and lifestyle. You would have be sure you are only testing the variable of eating meat or not - ideally it would have to be double blind and randomized like a drug trial.

Otherwise your comparison is complete useless and only a fool would put value in the study there is multitude of other variables which could be coming into play, synergistic effects, etc. Your stats would be useless. The line parroted by misguided fools that, "a study can be made to show anything" does not apply to controlled studies following the scientific process.

PS, my sister was a vegetarian for over a decade until she lived in Africa for 6 months.

[binary visions]

Seriously, syadasti, are you just not reading or allowing anything to penetrate your head?

Let's go back for a second.

I eat everything because there is nothing wrong or unnatural about it - its how we evolved. To say it is wrong goes against evolution which can't be wrong.

Here's your original point, from where all your arguments stem. You state that simply because we evolved to be a certain way, people cannot view that as wrong.

We evolved to f**k anything that is fertile whether they are particularly willing or not. We evolved to fight and kill each other over animal disputes about territory and leadership (okay, let's not bring G.W.B. into this, you know what I mean).

We evolved a lot of ways that are NOT RELEVANT TO TODAY'S SOCIETY. We have animal instincts about eating and mating and territory that are considered to be wrong in a civilized society. Just because you don't think eating meat is wrong doesn't mean that evolution vindicates you. Evolving to be a certain way doesn't automatically make it morally right. The instinct to eat meat doesn't mean it can't be balanced against society's treatment of animals.

[Silver]

Evolving to be a certain way doesn't automatically make it morally right.

Bah...I liked the way Echo put it better. His post had more dick in it...

[syadasti]

We evolved a lot of ways that are NOT RELEVANT TO TODAY'S SOCIETY. We have animal instincts about eating and mating and territory that are considered to be wrong in a civilized society. Just because you don't think eating meat is wrong doesn't mean that evolution vindicates you. Evolving to be a certain way doesn't automatically make it morally right. The instinct to eat meat doesn't mean it can't be balanced against society's treatment of animals.

Actually evolution always determines ideal diet.

The body's nutritional requirements are not effected by arbitrary human invented morals. The nutritional requirements - what is healthy for the body and not is determined by our genes. It doesn't matter whether someone thinks its wrong or not evolution is RIGHT and always relevant to way the body physically works - end of story.

[binary visions]

Your point is ridiculous and you are not addressing the root of my argument (or Echo's) but that's cool, I'm done. :homer:

[syadasti]

Your point is ridiculous and you are not addressing the root of my argument (or Echo's) but that's cool, I'm done. :homer:

No our body's nutritional requirements are the most relevant, important criteria in determining how healthy a diet is. Our genes determine what is right, not arbitrary morals.

[Silver]

No our body's nutritional requirements are the most relevant, important criteria in determining how healthy a diet is.

Let's pretend that killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children and grinding them into meat was the best diet possible, according to our gene expression. (Of course, this is a ridiculous idea, no one seriously thinks we should grind up those dead Iraqi children that we killed, so don't get your panties in a knot...) Are we justified in doing that in order to secure a food supply, especially since we live in a time when technology has freed us from such requirements?

It's a moral question, and you're answering it with the naturalistic fallacy (or, more properly, an appeal to nature.)

[Slugman]

Actually evolution always determines ideal diet.

Despite the n8 like quality of your post (either completely ignorant or just trolling), I have to agree with you.

Apparently us vegan/vegetarians are just further along in our evolution that you.

[syadasti]

It's a moral question, and you're answering it with the naturalistic fallacy (or, more properly, an appeal to nature.)

There is no fallacy about the genes that determine the way life works.

Symbiosis is fact of life.

[Silver]

There is no fallacy about the genes that determine the way life works.

Symbiosis is fact of life.

And so is rape, like echo pointed out.

Are you being obtuse on purpose, or not?

[Echo]

No our body's nutritional requirements are the most relevant, important criteria in determining how healthy a diet is. Our genes determine what is right, not arbitrary morals.
I'm not going to go back through and check, but as far as I remember, you are the only person in the thread who has referred to "morals". I certainly haven't said anything about morals. I don't eat corpses because I don't think it's safe, I don't trust the farmers to produce a safe product and I don't trust the government to regulate them. Different people have different reasons and seriously, I can't understand why every time there's a thread about it, you feel the need to jump in. So you eat dead bodies. We know. Some of us choose not to. You aren't going to change anyone's mind.

[syadasti]

I'm not going to go back through and check, but as far as I remember, you are the only person in the thread who has referred to "morals". I certainly haven't said anything about morals. I don't eat corpses because I don't think it's safe, I don't trust the farmers to produce a safe product and I don't trust the government to regulate them. Different people have different reasons and seriously, I can't understand why every time there's a thread about it, you feel the need to jump in. So you eat dead bodies. We know. Some of us choose not to. You aren't going to change anyone's mind.

Food safety is valid concern, no argument with that. Its hard to judge how deep the hole is though it applies to big commercialized agriculture in general, not just meat.

[Echo]

Food safety is valid concern, no argument with that. Its hard to judge how deep the hole is though it applies to big commercialized agriculture in general, not just meat.
Definitely. But I gotta eat something. I pick what I think is the safest and healthiest.

[fluff]

I can't believe this made 9 pages. There surely must be better things to argue about. How about the Lebanon?

[syadasti]

Definitely. But I gotta eat something. I pick what I think is the safest and healthiest.

Its also scary to think of how many thousands of chemicals make it on to the market every year with only a very small handful tested by the government for a narrow set of issues with heavy influence from the very industries that make them. We are a nation of guinea pigs whether we know it or not.

[rockwool]

First, your previous post is way too friggin' long. Brevity is your friend.

As for what to do when someone serves something you don't eat, well, don't eat it. How is that hard?

I refuse to eat meat that was abused in the standard process of growing it. Like foie gras, that's just mean. The only true way to eat meat is by killing a wild animal. Since I don't do that, I have to draw the line somewhere, that's duck liver, veal and the like.

Sorry, I have mouth diarea.

It's hard because they start asking questions and make them feel guilty about their eating habbits, which makes me feel guilty in turn for effing up the good mood und so weiter...

Are you BSing? How about freedom gras, do you eat that?

just for another data point, we should see what the patterns are with freegans (http://freegan.info/)

Looks interesting, thanks for the link!

Its a version of symbiosis. Arbitrary morals are inventions of mankind.

I don't see where it is mutually beneficial for animals to serv us or be bred just to feed us. I find that to be parasitical and at best amensalitical of us. I am taking advatage of them cows as I need their milk as a source of proteins.

Are you saying that the morals of Vegans are arbitrary? I find their reasoning to be rooted in deep values that are unquestionable when it comes to the relation between man-man.

I have to call BS...I use to be allergic to bee stings and after seeing a homeopath for a few months I'm no longer allergic....D

Is that what you call them rasta's down at the park?

you've obviously never owned a dog before.

I'm a luck "owner" of two American Pit Bull Terriers. Somehow my two little turds manage to leave food in their bowls!! :biggrin: I'll see if I can post a picture of them this weekend.

I'm not going to go back through and check, but as far as I remember, you are the only person in the thread who has referred to "morals". I certainly haven't said anything about morals.

I touched that subject when I answered L'Opie's question about why, at least many, vegans do their thang. It's because of ethics. Dunno if it was that that triggered this discussion though.

Its also scary to think of how many thousands of chemicals make it on to the market every year with only a very small handful tested by the government for a narrow set of issues with heavy influence from the very industries that make them. We are a nation of guinea pigs whether we know it or not.

True dat! But that's another thread.

[MikeD]

What does all this have to do with women in combat again?

[syadasti]

What does all this have to do with women in combat again?

Watch out for black widows :lighten:

[LordOpie]

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/family-planning.jpg

[sanjuro]

I blame them because they are black.