i'm thoroughly disgusted

[gsweet]

i know that this kind of sh!t happens constantly in the world, and that most of it is just passed over by the major media outlets (hence we don't hear about it), but i nevertheless feel horribly ashamed of the human race when i read this kind of stuff. if there ever was a reason to be in Iraq, this would be it for me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

i'm constantly told that islam is a religion of peace, and i believe it in theory. the practice is what scares me...i happen to have a few good friends who are (along with their families) devoutly muslim. having attended mosque a few times with them (i'm a jew, and visually so at that) and being welcomed in by the entire congregation, only to find myself in a discussion of the wtc attacks and how they were really not a bad thing...:disgust1:

i dunno...i consider myself reasonably politically conscious, but seriously, where can the line be drawn

[Silver]

Hey we liberated them! They are free now, and they all have flowers and puppies.

Why do you hate freedom?

[gsweet]

if freedom is being forced to jump in a bonfire or being forcibly circumsized at age 19, then i'll be in the non-freedom line, thankyouverymuch.

[tmoney727t]

yeah, but then again the zionistic pigs in israel stole the palestinians land and now opress them like crazy and bulldoze their houses in the name of the old testament, so idk. A lot of religions have their violent side.

[gsweet]

ok, i agree there, but the blatant religious cleansing is kinda one step further. don't get me wrong; i'm in no way condoning israel's actions (infact i'm not a zionist to begin with), but this kind of thing is not something israel would do with the rest of the world looking over its shoulder

[tmoney727t]

yeah, i guess islam is just having some rebellious teen angst just like christianity had in the crusades.

[LordOpie]

yeah, but then again the zionistic pigs in israel stole the palestinians land...
Absolutely false.

If you really want an honest and open discussion on it, let me know. Not gonna waste my time if you're closed minded.

[tmoney727t]

Absolutely false.

If you really want an honest and open discussion on it, let me know. Not gonna waste my time if you're closed minded.

I know the brits handed it over to them after the holocaust reparations for their opression, but IMO after the holocaust happening to the Jews tehy would realize that the opression of a people over religion is wrong and they would have given it to the palestinians who had inhabited the land for many many many generations. Idk, I guess if I were offered a country then I would say ok, but I still think it is morally wrong to give soemthing that is rightfully someone elses to soemone.

[LordOpie]

The Palestinians were given their own land, it's called Jordan.

[ALEXIS_DH]

I know the brits handed it over to them after the holocaust reparations for their opression, but IMO after the holocaust happening to the Jews tehy would realize that the opression of a people over religion is wrong and they would have given it to the palestinians who had inhabited the land for many many many generations. Idk, I guess if I were offered a country then I would say ok, but I still think it is morally wrong to give soemthing that is rightfully someone elses to soemone.

check out the balfour declaration of 1917.
way before the holocaust.

[Silver]

Absolutely false.



That's true. The Zionists didn't steal it. They bombed their way to it like any good resistance movement does.

[$tinkle]

That's true. The Zionists didn't steal it. They bombed their way to it like any good resistance movement does.lasers, too

http://www.aerojockey.com/fark/jis.jpg

[LordOpie]

Awesome.

The Death Star of David.

:thumb:

[Silver]

What's it blowing up? Scientologists?

[Changleen]

Opie, you are so vociferous defending your mock-brethren.

What do you say folks, shall we do Israel vs. Palestine again?

[ryanm8]

changleen, change your avytar please

[LordOpie]

Opie, you are so vociferous defending your mock-brethren.

I am not.

I'm discussing facts. Like that there was no "Palestine".

Is it a fact that Israel has done some disgusting and horrible stuff? Absolutely.

Who the fvck hasn't? Look at my wonderful USA? We're fvcking up all over the place.

If your country hasn't done anything to be ashamed of, then they should be ashamed of not trying ;)

[$tinkle]

What do you say folks, shall we do Israel vs. Palestine again?what i find interesting is when secularists take sides on this topic, they side w/ the muslim fundamentalists, not the jews, who are jewish in name only (for the most part).

why is that?

[fluff]

what i find interesting is when secularists take sides on this topic, they side w/ the muslim fundamentalists, not the jews, who are jewish in name only (for the most part).

why is that?

Which muslim fundamentalists would that be?

[$tinkle]

Which muslim fundamentalists would that be?most recently, these (http://www.nysun.com/article/49376).
$quote: Mr. Abir blamed the Jewish state for the desecration of the Gaza synagogues by Palestinian Arabs, claiming the decision to leave the structures intact was part of an Israeli conspiracy.

Israel "left the synagogues behind so the world would see the Palestinians destroying them," Mr. Abir said.
17 yrs ago in d.c., we had a guy who got caught hittin the pipe saying "the bitch set me up".

back to my question, please...

[fluff]

most recently, these (http://www.nysun.com/article/49376).
$quote:17 yrs ago in d.c., we had a guy who got caught hittin the pipe saying "the bitch set me up".

back to my question, please...

Sorry, you lost me there. Which muslim fundamentalists were you talking about?

Or are all Arabs muslim fundamentalists now? Did I miss a memo?

If there are no muslim fundamentalists then there is no question.

[LordOpie]

There is no spoon.

Just fvck.

[$tinkle]

gaza is almost entirely sunni muslims, west bank about 3/4. both areas well known for their unabashed and uncomprising hatred towards the 'zionists', henceforth making them 'fundamentalists'.

which do you think long to live in crushing poverty, oppression, & refugee camps? moderates, or line-in-the-sand last-man-standing fundamentalists?

but back to my question - seriously, it's a nice question - why do secularists who choose to take sides on this topic overwhelmingly side w/ the palis - who are much more religiously fundamentalists than the israelis???

[LordOpie]

why do secularists who choose to take sides on this topic overwhelmingly side w/ the palis - who are much more religiously fundamentalists than the israelis???
Everyone loves an under-dog.

[Silver]

but back to my question - seriously, it's a nice question - why do secularists who choose to take sides on this topic overwhelmingly side w/ the palis - who are much more religiously fundamentalists than the israelis???

Probably because one set of religious nuts are living in refugee camps, and the other set lobs missiles into said camps from helicopters that the US taxpayer buys for them.

[$tinkle]

Everyone loves an under-dog.even though your answer is just as cynical as silver's, i like yours better.

so why don't we give our land back to the injuns (to also include land bought from the french & spanish)?

oh...i get it...

[fluff]

gaza is almost entirely sunni muslims, west bank about 3/4. both areas well known for their unabashed and uncomprising hatred towards the 'zionists', henceforth making them 'fundamentalists'.

which do you think long to live in crushing poverty, oppression, & refugee camps? moderates, or line-in-the-sand last-man-standing fundamentalists?

but back to my question - seriously, it's a nice question - why do secularists who choose to take sides on this topic overwhelmingly side w/ the palis - who are much more religiously fundamentalists than the israelis???

I sense much bigotry and little fact.

Palestinians "terrorists" are not generally muslim fundamentalists though some surely are, just as some Israeli "extremists" may be Jewish fundamentalists.

Your question is invalid because the basic premise of your question is faulty.

The Palestinians fight the Israelis not because of a difference in religion but because they see the Israelis as having stolen their land. The Israelis feel that the land belongs to them because either God promised it to them or because it was empty (not true) or because they kicked the Palestinians out in a war and to the victor the spoils.

If you cannot understand the basic motivations of the warring factions you should stay out of the debate.

Fundamentalism is not defined by hating 'Zionists', that is simply attempted spin.

As to the only valid question above I can guarantee you that none of the above long to live in crushing poverty, oppression, & refugee camps. The ones who do have little choice.

[Changleen]

changleen, change your avytar pleaseUh, no thanks.

[$tinkle]

Palestinians "terrorists" are not generally muslim fundamentalists though some surely are, just as most Israeli "extremists" may be Jewish fundamentalists.it would strike me as odd to find a people who would target civilians (vice collateral damage) and not be convinced this is just, unless there is a significant and necessary fundamentalist element to them (islamic, in this case). with that, please convince me there is another attribute to the "terrorist" element which is more prolific. is it nationalism? tribalism? anti-occupation? i offer these possibilities not as strawmen, but because i've oft heard these reasons, but they seem to unravel when taking this conclusion as the premise of something else. if i were to role-play and claim one or all of these as my motivation behind my behavior against the nation of israel, would not symmetry be expected? moreover, if it's due to 2 nations at odds over territory, wouldn't a war be expected to settle the conflict? prevailing wisdom tells us this should do.

snivelling bitches who pick fights they can't win tells us this is not so. unless a people come to a truly empty land or if occupied land is "purchased", there's always some accusation of "land-grab" that's just as rational as this, would you agree?

also, can you explain the dispute over the east jerusalem boundary and not put it in terms of the al-aqsa mosque? the mosque is more important to the fundamentalists muslims than it is to the nationalists/tribalists/anti-occupationists (if indeed they exist in significant numbers; see above)
As to the only valid question above I can guarantee you that none of the above long to live in crushing poverty, oppression, & refugee camps. The ones who do have little choice.i fully agree w/ this & ask: why aren't neighboring countries inviting these fellow arabs w/ open arms, or sending them petrodollars from all the money they're making? is not the plight of the palis a high calling? or are palis just arabian rednecks/chavs/lesser people? why is egypt so bent on keeping the "illegal wall" that israel built along gaza?

lastly: what is a jewish fundamentalist? a soldier in the IDF? or the guy who shot yitzhak rabin?

[LordOpie]

When Katrina devastated the coastal region, other states welcomed the victims, helped them find a place to live, cared for the injured, schooled the children. The states that helped these people have state budgets. Budgets to which these people didn't contribute.

I know that's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but why doesn't the other Arab states off the Palestinian's new homes?

Is what Israel is doing wrong? Perhaps. But get the people out who want to leave and THEN send in your (Jordan, etc.) military if you think Israel is wrong.

Arab World is using these people as pawns... I wish that didn't get consistently overlooked :(

[fluff]

In answer to your questions:
1. The militant/terrorist/freedom-fighter Palestinians see Israelis who are on 'their' land as valid targets as they are an occupation force (in the eyes of the Palestinians). This is about land, not religion.

2. If the only reason the Palestinians care about Jerusalem is religious, what is the only reason the Isrealis care? You are over-simplifying and missing the point. The al-aqsa mosque is a symbol, a rallying cry. Remember the Alamo? Who really gave a crap about a smaely little fort? Yet if you piss on it today you'll be arrested.

Surely by your logic a Jewish fundamentalist is someone who hates Palestinians?

[fluff]

When Katrina devastated the coastal region, other states welcomed the victims, helped them find a place to live, cared for the injured, schooled the children. The states that helped these people have state budgets. Budgets to which these people didn't contribute.

I know that's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but why doesn't the other Arab states off the Palestinian's new homes?

Is what Israel is doing wrong? Perhaps. But get the people out who want to leave and THEN send in your (Jordan, etc.) military if you think Israel is wrong.

Arab World is using these people as pawns... I wish that didn't get consistently overlooked :(

I've just been watching a documentary about Katrina, including Jefferson county's armed blockade of the bridge out of New Orleans... sure they were welcomed, but not by their neighbours, eh?

Remember how the Jews were persecuted for no good reason? Now it's the turn of the Palestinians, maybe it's something in the water - don't drink the Jordan, boys.

As for the rest of your post, are you drunk?

[N8]

yeah, but then again the zionistic pigs in israel stole the palestinians land and now opress them like crazy and bulldoze their houses in the name of the old testament, so idk. A lot of religions have their violent side.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/mtbnate/6543.gif

[LordOpie]

As for the rest of your post, are you drunk?

You're missing the point :(

The point is, put pride, "right-and-wrong", ego, everything aside and take the option that is easiest to give the victims of this bullsh!t a better life.

Jordan with the help of USA, UN, etc could easily bring these people in.

All I know is, no piece of land is worth putting my family through that nightmare.

[LordOpie]

...
Don't y'all love how a newbie enters, stirs the pot, and leaves us to have the same repetitive conversation over and over again?

[$tinkle]

1. The militant/terrorist/freedom-fighter Palestinians see Israelis who are on 'their' land as valid targets as they are an occupation force (in the eyes of the Palestinians). fair enough; now i put it to you: do you agree w/ their position? if so, would you also give equivalence to a similar israeli position, thusly equally justifying strafing refugee camps to discourage their would-be attackers upon what they perceive to be their territory?
2. If the only reason the Palestinians care about Jerusalem is religious, what is the only reason the Isrealis care? You are over-simplifying and missing the point. The al-aqsa mosque is a symbol, a rallying cry. so i take you see it that way for the israelis as well, and as such, wouldn't you be best serve just taking a step back & letting these sovereign entities (a stretch, i realize) duke it out?
Remember the Alamo? Who really gave a crap about a smaely little fort? Yet if you piss on it today you'll be arrested.you kidding me? we piss on burning flags over here. it's quite literally our "freedom of expression".
Surely by your logic a Jewish fundamentalist is someone who hates Palestinians?not by my logic, but by logic itself this would appear to stand.

[$tinkle]

Don't y'all love how a newbie enters, stirs the pot, and leaves us to have the same repetitive conversation over and over again?yeah, what the eff?
and what's a 727? fork? frame? aluminum grade? fav trail?

[fluff]

You're missing the point :(

The point is, put pride, "right-and-wrong", ego, everything aside and take the option that is easiest to give the victims of this bullsh!t a better life.

Jordan with the help of USA, UN, etc could easily bring these people in.

All I know is, no piece of land is worth putting my family through that nightmare.

Since the Palestinians attempted a coup to take power in Jordan a few years back I think you'll find they'll only take them at the point of a gun.

Opie, why do you think people live in refugee camps? Because they want to? Any idea how many Iraqis are camped by their borders trying to get out?

Nobody wants these people. The ones who can get out do so, the ones who can't, can't.

[fluff]

fair enough; now i put it to you: do you agree w/ their position? if so, would you also give equivalence to a similar israeli position, thusly equally justifying strafing refugee camps to discourage their would-be attackers upon what they perceive to be their territory?

No.

so i take you see it that way for the israelis as well, and as such, wouldn't you be best serve just taking a step back & letting these sovereign entities (a stretch, i realize) duke it out?

Not really a fair fight is it? Though Israel will hold out for a few years.

you kidding me? we piss on burning flags over here. it's quite literally our "freedom of expression".

Yeah, right... Why was Ozzy Osbourne arrested again? Your freedoms are vanishing. Try sending an e-mail proclaiming your conversion to Islam and you desire to bomb the White House.

not by my logic, but by logic itself this would appear to stand.
I refer you to your earlier definition of fundamentalist as someone who hates Zionists; illogical and hence no basis for equivalence. Circular logic does not make the original valid.

[LordOpie]

Opie, why do you think people live in refugee camps? Because they want to?

Of course they don't want to!

This problem is bigger than Israel vs Palestine and no one with a global voice is challenging that fact. The fact that no one wants the fighting to stop :(

[$tinkle]

Not really a fair fight is it?wtf does that have to do w/ anything?
but since you injected it, indulge me: do you believe if the tables were turned there would be an equal level of restraint?
Yeah, right... Why was Ozzy Osbourne arrested again? for spawning a tone-deaf fatty; you can have him back.
Try sending an e-mail proclaiming your conversion to Islam and you desire to bomb the White House.are you trying to say there's a nexus between islam & terror?
I refer you to your earlier definition of fundamentalist as someone who hates Zionists; illogical and hence no basis for equivalence. Circular logic does not make the original valid.take ii:
their fundamentalism is based upon their anti-semitic fervor. settling a land dispute will not assuage them.

[fluff]

wtf does that have to do w/ anything?
but since you injected it, indulge me: do you believe if the tables were turned there would be an equal level of restraint?

You've been watching a different conflict if you think there is any restraint shown by either side, another question that makes no sense when examined.

are you trying to say there's a nexus between islam & terror?

Nope, I'm saying that if you start sending out such emails then you will quickly find the limits of your freedom of expression.


take ii:
their fundamentalism is based upon their anti-semitic fervor. settling a land dispute will not assuage them.
That they lived in harmony with Jews for centuries gives the lie to your statement. Until the Jews colonized Palestine they fair rather better in the Middle East than they did in Europe.

When you use fundamentalism as you do it ceases to mean anything. Just like terrorist.

[$tinkle]

You've been watching a different conflict if you think there is any restraint shown by either side, another question that makes no sense when examined.i can count on my middle hand how many mushroom clouds i've seen in gaza/w.b.
Nope, I'm saying that if you start sending out such emails then you will quickly find the limits of your freedom of expression.and i would expect as much; would you have it different? i hear al-queda is prank calling 10 downing street w/ a variation of "do you have prince albert in a can"? (http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/0702har.htm)
That they lived in harmony with Jews for centuries gives the lie to your statement. Until the Jews colonized Palestine they fair rather better in the Middle East than they did in Europe."gives the lie"? have you been memorising george galloway at you local mosque again? whenever jews lived under muslim rule, they are given the status of "dhimmi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi), and is very much like how our country existed under slavery and into the jim crow era. harmony my severed foot!
When you use fundamentalism as you do it ceases to mean anything. Just like terrorist.fundamentalist is the new fascist. don't you read your talking points mssr galloway sent?

[fluff]

i can count on my middle hand how many mushroom clouds i've seen in gaza/w.b.
and i would expect as much; would you have it different? i hear al-queda is prank calling 10 downing street w/ a variation of "do you have prince albert in a can"? (http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/0702har.htm)
"gives the lie"? have you been memorising george galloway at you local mosque again? whenever jews lived under muslim rule, they are given the status of "dhimmi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi), and is very much like how our country existed under slavery and into the jim crow era. harmony my severed foot!
fundamentalist is the new fascist. don't you read your talking points mssr galloway sent?

You really are reaching now. Mushroom clouds in Gaza, I guess so long as the prevailing wind was north-east and set to stay that way for a long time, it could be a viable option.

Drop your Galloway fixation and research the history of Palestine pre 1914. Even a cursory perusal of the linked Wikipedia article indicates that you would learn much more elsewhere.